₦airaland Forum

KingEbukasBlog:
No . Im trying to explain how illogical the question not saying God's power is finite so he would understand . Infinite in other words , boundless , unlimited . It means nothing can go beyond .

It is a paradox and if the question is illogical then the subject of which the question is based then becomes Illogical.

Omnipotence.

Paradoxes are created to show the illogicalities of an idea. . .

So since Omnipotence means able to all things (this going from the definition means nothing is impossible for it)

So if by saying it cannot do something this still murders omnipotence. . God cannot sin still is same as saying God cannot do everything therefore omnipotence is killed.

God cannot forget, therefore it cannot do everything since forgetting is something and therefore part of everything.

All these questions derive their illogicality from the illogicality of the subject..

Meaning Omnipotence is an illogical idea therefore leads to illogical paradoxes.

KingEbukasBlog:
Its an illogical question . How will I even explain it to you sef . Ok . Imagine a filled tank , filled to the brim . And someone asks if the tank can be filled more than brim ? I does not make any sense because anything outside the brim , the water pours out . The tank being filled means water being to the level of the brim .

So imagine asking God to create someone more powerful than himself - its illogical because every imagination of how powerful someone can be God is that person . There is no opportunity for someone to be greater- its not real . There is no "power filling" outside the brim . "The power tank " is filled . So nothing can go beyond God , anything can go below God .

Comprendre ?

That's why its a specious argument - it looks logical at first look but its actually false , fallacious , not logical one bit .

Here now lies the problem: for a tank to reach a filling limit means it is limited and so finite, so from this God's abilities are finite there are certain points it cannot reach or exceed.

If you propose an infinite power of God then the tank analogy falls apart and God leaves more room for possibilities.

Like Logicbwoy mentioned above there is always Infiniti + Infiniti or infiniti+ 1..

So for this to hold sway you have indirectly shown God's powers to be limited therefore still kills the Omnipotence..

It's a paradox, i hope you understand trying to solve paradoxes only ends one way. . Logicbwoy just baited you.

Reyginus:
No. Their presentation in movies like Source Code, X-Men Days of Future Past, Time Machine are irrational. I consider something like The Matrix more intelligent and serious.

Time travel is feasible on paper and pen that is mathematically, more so we travel through time and our velocity always have an effect on time.

Time dilation.

Though time travel is mathematically plausible, i doubt it's feasibility in actuality. Out of the mathematical representation, it doesn't make sense to me either.

E.g: In the star trek logicbwoy talked about, one of them travelled to the future and met his future self (An old man).

This literally should change everything in the timeline and that meeting still would end up not happening after he goes back in the actual time since the particular line of action was averted through the cause of their adventures.

He met a future that will end up not happening

You see, it juggles up the brain.

Logicbwoy:
I want to jog your minds a little.

Have you watched ant man? The superhero with the ability to shrink himself or matter?

In the movie, he shrunk himself down to the quantum world and nearly died. His scientist mentor noted that the quantum level is an abyss in which no one understands the rules.


What do you think would happen if we could manipulate things at the quantum level.

Nope i have not watched the Ant man, i only like the Marvel Thor and Avengers series plus Captain America thing eheee Iron man.

Well just like you quoted above, the quantum world is an abyss that nobody understand it's rules yet and this is because we are used to rules.

Everything we know of is turned upside down once we dabble into the quantum scale making us term it spooky.

Cause and effect doesn't hold sway there.

We can derive ideas and apply quantum science in our world which can better our technological ability example Quantum computer but to be fully able to grasp the depth of the quantum realm is very shadowy.

We are used to the macro-universe so elusive to us was the universe within.

To me personally the only reason we may not be able to understand the quantum world at all is that we need to think outside the box here, maybe we shouldn't be expecting anything, a set of laws on quantum manifestations.

What if the only laws of the quantum world is there are no laws .. and if this is so then we must first shed off our idea of laws of physics taught by the macro-world when ever we look into the micro.

This is my personal thought

wirinet:
Bingo. That the QED of all these wild theories on time warp, quantum entanglements and wormholes, what is feasible on the micro (quantum) level is not feasible on the macro (everyday) level and what is feasible on the macro and micro levels are not feasible on the mega (cosmic or astronomical ) level.

Both are ruled by different laws in each level, Laws of the quantum world (even though we know nothing of it yet) breaks down in the macro-scale and that of the macro-world breaks down in the quantum world.

But the Quantum level is the fundamental ground level upon which the macro- is built.

urahara:
COMING SOON. ................


FREED FROM THE SHACKLES OF RELIGION.. BY JOHNNY DON 22



...... HOW I MET MY FREECOCOA. .... BY JOHNNY DON 22



A MUST READ FOR ALL NAIRALANDERS

Hahahahaha mumu. . . i won't write any such stories though, this belongs to you lot who can put up with that

JustStardust:
Same here. Sometimes i do facepalm for myself HOW COULD I?

Hahahahaha more reasons why we should not use condescending attitudes or insulting words when dealing such people cus at some point in our lives we were like that if not more

Cc. lalasticlala can you do the needful for us here for once

KingEbukasBlog:
Specious argument bro .

In the same vein as omnipotence paradox . God is infinite and Supreme . He precludes infinite regression . There is none greater - it is impossible for one to be greater . All Powerful .

So it is illogical to ask God create someone greater than him . It does not make any sense .`

In order words this is another way of saying god cannot create another greater than it

urahara:
An uncle of mine told me that if i would reqd the book my eyes would glow like the avatar and i ll be so powerful and that ill run mad.

As at now , i am reading the book and the only thing i feel is boredom.

This is how such a thing works. . . Everybody believe it will make them run mad even nobody has read it yet and nobody actually wants to read it to check of eventually it will make them run mad.

so they just keep believing it.

charix:
Funny enough the e-book is available online.
Read a portion of it over a decade ago, it contains a disclaimer somewhere stating if you read the book completely and don't believe you'd run mad however if you read and believe a demon would appear then give you a test with your ultimate prize being otherwordly knowledge. Tips and tricks to confuse the demon were given. Omoh, na there I close the book delete the file, I too like my life.

One of the things that diminish us is fear, diminishes our enquiries. . . I downloaded the book and finished it, nothing happened..

You guys should stop being so fearful..

Logicbwoy:
How the hell is it illogical to ask God to create someone greater than him?

God can always reduce his powers, can't he?

Or if God's powers are infinite, there is always infinity plus one.




But if we read the bible, we start to even realise a new twist- Yahweh is not all powerful. He was an angry, jealous, racist and vindictive God. Showing that he gave into his emotions. This means that he could be manipulated.

So i take it that the 1,000,000 was not won? no answer!

gbadexy:
I swear by all I hold dear, you wrote absolute rubbish, pardon the language.
I don't do religious argument because it's pointless.
So it makes sense that your quantum energy level or whatever it is that you said created matter came into being from nothing. Na you first read physics Ba? Keep humouring yourselves.
So energy can create itself from nothing and come into Being.
I just couldn't take you lots serious. You appear like enlightened wannabes trying hard to justify your apparent stand by all means. I don't sincerely think you too believe what jargon you wrote and to be candid, I just glanced through it.
Congratulations on your enlightenment though. I don't wish to engage in this discussion again. It doesn't add value to me to increase my account balance.
Whatever gives you fulfilment.
You may say your superior argument chased me away, whatever rock your boats.
Each to his own and good luck.

When they have no more argument they resort to personal emotional talks, i have learnt to see Ad hominems as a last resort for someone who no longer have an argument to bring up.

Thanks and have fun brother

lordnicklaus:
Thanks for the info johny my bro!!! But the spells actually work though. Have you ever witnessed an incidence in which someone quoted from the text?

I've read it, some guy posted it here and said if you read you will see spirit and all that.

You know me out of curiosity i read it and voila, absolute crap!!

Akshow:
pls how do I get added to this free thinker Lodge?

send a PM to hahn

HardMirror:
Lol
You guys just keep amusing me.
This story is 100% true. Azo I mentioned in part one surprisingly showed up later in the thread we exchanged mails and he gave me his current phone number and we spoke. We would be meeting at ikeja soon.
The brother dan I mention now is a missionary in india. He is a son to Rev ogundare and he studied electrical electronics. Rev ogundare is based in akure and has his house at Futa south gate and he is very popular. Many futarians have sent me PMs and we have spoken. All this happened between 2007 and 2012. 100% verifiable.

You owe nobody any explanation, simply ignore such side irrelevant talks and continue your story

lordnicklaus:
It is a book or poem of sorcery and enchantments said to contain words recited by Moses in the contest between he and the Egyptian magicians and recited in the dividing of the Red Sea. It depicts semiphoras or seals which are said to be magical and is also said to contain powerful names of God.


It was not Moses who wrote the book. It was probably written by an Egyptian who was part of the exodus.

it's a modern day construct, drafted no later than 3 centuries ago

gbadexy:
In essence, for pursuit of things that gives us satisfaction and fulfilment.
No organised religion would oppose such aspirations.
You feel we came into being strictly for our own amusement and development, at least that in itself is a purpose.
So do you believe matter could be created from nothing?

You see when pulling out this type of argument religious people actually forget that there are arguing against their own beliefs without even knowing it.

-Your belief is centered on the invocation of a deity causality for the universe even though there is no universe materializes matter literally out of nothing. . (Talking some assert)

-Actually you are the person who holds a belief of matter emerging from nothing here.

Scientifically Quantum fluctuations in a quantum field which represents the lowest level of energy frequency creates matter..

But here in the case of your beliefs:

A deity designed a universe out of nothing, there cannot be design if there is nothing.
So there comes to a point where this deity must have to materialize the materials needed for the universe literally out of nothing before designing it..

So if there is nothing there is no design but rather magic in a theological stand point here.

When trying to base an argument on a premise, review to check how it relates to your own stance..

-Cus literally 'Your belief is the one that holds that Matter came from nothing, let me not even stretch it farther to the deity itself.

Let me humour you that atoms aligned to form organised living and non living components of the universe through big bang. How did those atoms came into being.

In physics Quantum fluctuations are responsible for that..

and knowing this sort of argument well, you probably asked where the matter came from in hope that if we don't know then it is necessary to invoke a God (who remarkably came from?)

That you don't know where the atom came from, or i don't know or the entire community of physics don't doesn't mean a deity did it.

it means we "Don't know"

Ignorance is not an evidence of any deity rather is an evidence of ignorance…

So the appeal to ignorance argument necessary to pull a 'god of gap' does not hold sway at all.

Because if empirically what you previously attributed to a deity out of ignorance becomes ascertained how it actually happened, the deity gets shattered from the equation.

so trying to appeal to ignorance to invoke a god will only make your god an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance in the face of more discoveries.

I studied biochemistry in school. Do you know how complex but yet very organised protein molecules that make up our dna is. It's the blueprint of individuals. Yet it's of an understandable repeated sequence which makes it possible for paternity test. Do you think such organisation was due to random reaction.
I repeat, do you think matter could be created from nothing? How did the first atoms come into Being? They just were there? And if so, what force prompted them to react.
I'm not here to sell my religious believe to you.
I just can't seem to take you people serious or believe any logical person would sincerely belief the world just came into being spontaneously on its own.
Discussing about the creator or on type of religion is a futile journey I won't even bother engaging in.

This 'complexity argument' has got to be the most laughable, cliche and weak argument people muster up for god(s).

Pointing at natural complex values in order to invoke a god, forgetting that for something to be powerful and intelligent enough to design a complex system, it must be at least as complex or far more complex than the system.

now you are here pointing at natural complexity in order to invoke a god who must also even be more complex, how does that work?

If complexity means design then this god that is even more complex must also require a designer to exist.

If you beg a special pleading to exempt it from being designed then it murders all your argument since here you are suggesting a complex entity who doesn't need to be designed using it to explain complexity of nature.

Haven't you shown something can be complex and not be designed if you assert a complex god who doesn't require a designer?

That murders your whole complexity argument.

Furthermore, the 'cannot be by chance argument' is naive to say because even in the presence of a mind everything is still subject to chance.

In every random process there is a pattern, in every interaction there is a
result..
this is the nature of everything, this is the result of what was in the testimony
of what is.

Take for instance a Sand Dune, it is very artistic and precise but then from
whence did it come?

Was it a planned artistic design?

Not even in the least, just a random and even chaotic reaction of wind on sand
and from the chaotic reaction a pattern emerges, a result.

The Penicillin was made from chance yet saved millions and very important in
our medical field.

Even where there is will, Chance governs all.

Even when you invoke a God, it is still a subject to chance...

-A chance that somehow outstandingly we've got a God(and not nothing)

-A chance that it is remarkably powerful enough to make something

-A chance that is precisely able and willing.

-A chance that in it's infinite loop of existence it decides to make everything.

2,000,000 sperms on conception night only one made it, it is a remarkable
chance, even your day to day life is governed and subjected to chance.

A chance that your car doesn't get hit by another or a meteor doesn't fall
right into your head.

So this is not about what feels good that takes us to the scope of theology
which in essence is blind.

theology only aims at giving answers to satisfy the questioner while science
gives answers to satisfy the question, the questioner may or may not like it
it is not a matter of believing the universe is a product of chance, believing it
doesn't make it true anymore than not believing it makes it a lie.

Invoking what you want to be (believe) in a quest to ascertain what is
diminishes your enquiry only to that of emotion and reduces the chance of a
truthful deduction.


replace the universe with God and you see all again falls back to chance.. why
there is something (God) and not nothing.. since it is a chance of nothing and
something, it also will be a remarkable chance if something(God) is and not
nothing.

remind me your arguments again.

dblackninja:
It's just assumptions though might not necessarily lead to time travel.
I don't really know how to explain this but take it like this:
Now you know that the paired particles can communicate with each other along the Timeline..which means that information can be passed between them even at a speed faster than the speed of light. Since particles can entangle forming something like a quantum bridge, it is also theoretically possible for a particle on Earth, and another say 3,000 light years away to be entangled and hence form a bridge to share information.

So teleporting/ transferring of identity from one particle in the present time, alongside entangled particles (through the quantum bridge), will now get to the other particle pair anywhere else on the Timescale, where the other entangled particle resides at that moment.
Hope you get where am driving at. It's kind of similar to 'Quantum Leap' series. Only if we can at 1st solve the mystery behind quantum entanglement

Yea i get you but this might not necessarily lead to a time travel in the rational sense, maybe an instantaneous teleportation or information sharing.

Beside i doubt if Quantum entanglement is feasible in a macro-scale...

Logicbwoy:
Nice concept. I would love to delve further into this but I think it is a discussion for another time. Our society has a myriad of problems which can be talked about for days.

True

Logicbwoy:
Guy, you don't have a problem. You are much calmer than I am.


When I first came to nairaland, I was cool. Until I got my first ban for no reason other than I was the only vocal atheist at the time. I complained and got other bans while some religious peeps were cheering. It left a bitter taste in my mouth and I became very harsh. You should see my previous verbal assaults and smackdown matches with other people in the past. lol


Funny enough, I got over it and started realising that if I waste time bashing people and delving in such hate, my humanistic message gets lost.

So I'm much calmer now. Live and let live. I am not perfect but I try to hold back the insults now......I fail once in a while but I still try.


It's hard to take the high road

hahahahaha classic!!!

The bolded is so relatable, there are posts that practically take you to your wits end..

well we'll keep trying to be better

dblackninja:
@ johnydon22 and Logicbwoy, what do you think of the slight possibility of achieving time travel that I wrote above ^^^^ Are you guys familiar with the phenomenon?

That is quantum entanglement. . . A quantum phenomena where two particles very far are entangled that information are passed instantaneously, almost like it's a dual existence of the same particle.

It's still weird to us.

In the quantum world the classical laws of physics manifesting in this macro-world breaks down completely.

even cause and effect breaks down in the quantum world, particles come into existence without needing to be caused, there are subatomic particles that can be induced to accelerate all by themselves almost to the speed of light without the application of an external force breaking the first law of motion of the macro-universe.

further revealing a weird random nature manifesting every way and either way.

I like your thoughts on Quantum entanglement used for time travel, though you may want to elaborate how.

It is a curious thought brother

Logicbwoy:
So are you ready to change the society?

^^
That there, is the main issue

The society literally is too large for one person to change, it is a task more tedious than that of Hercules.

But since you cannot hope to change the society at once you can change the immediate society around and can start by changing yourself.

You cannot necessarily sweep the whole market but you can contribute to sweeping the market by sweeping your own part of the market.

So that's why we are mostly here, contributing our own little cents to the intellectual evolution of our society.

Plato's allegory of caves can actually illuminate the effects of trying to change that conventional societal view

dblackninja:
Alright. Hope it will be feasible soon. I really love the idea behind it. Star trek on ma mind

It may yet be soon..

Logicbwoy:
No one is going to raid anything.

In fact, religious people are invited. All we need is decorum and tolerance

Exactly my boss. . . I am beginning to shape myself and mind to remove the trait of using degrading invectives on mind i dim ignorant, i am evolving past that condescending level.

Fully shown on my signature.

Believers of superstition and pseudoscience we must also consider are also humans with emotions and just like all of us are trying to figure out how the world works and our role in it.

Even thought their views and beliefs may mostly be consonant with science and secularism as proponents of the modern world, let us none the less tamper our sceptic criticism with kind words.

none of us really comes fully prepared or knows it all

Logicbwoy:
Interesting.

You'd be surprised at the funny things Nigerian students in Nigerian universities say.

The society shapes the thoughts only a few can press further and reach beyond the influence of their immediate society in cultivating their school of thought...

I do not necessarily blame them but the society that molded them.

HardMirror:
How dare you call our prophet a low budget actor?
He is the best in the industry and one of the richest. Let's promote our own.

..lol.. Please continue this story..

skeendyke:
You atheists always judge the whole by observing a minute part. Your argument goes thus: If it is raining in Lagos, it must be raining all over Nigeria. Note, I have no comment for this kind of argument.

No the argument is more like: How can you add 1° to a circle (360°) that is outrightly impossible..

At 360° a circle is precise, it needs nothing added to it and if you take away 1° it ceases to be a circle therefore imperfect and may then need something (1°)

So too if there is a deity attributed with perfection then it needs nothing, not your worship, belief or acknowledgement or even reverence because it doesn't need such mundane expressions and thus all your piety are useless and irrelevant to it.

But if your version of a perfect god requires these things then surely enough it cannot be perfect.

And on the virtue of two contradicting characters 'Perfection & want' such a thing cannot exist.

-It's either perfect and doesn't want, need or require anything related to such sheepish childish wants.

-Or it is imperfect and needs them

Bring both of them together it creates a paradox and annihilates the subject.

dblackninja:
@ johnydon22 you really killed it with your reply on music Music is really the food of the soul .. its effect is dynamic.

Surely

I wanna be sure.. Is there any device now capable of operating at warp speed??

Nope not yet, it's still something theoretical only manifesting in sci- fi you may say..

66Kazna99:
Mehn... If I replied with the exact stuff on my mind everytime, omo... People will read 1 post for pages. Calm dafuq down.

I'm sorry boss was just a bit amazed you didn't see where i said it was Nonsense.

I only applauded the evily creative mind it took to conjure it all up so eloquently and beautifully entertaining

HardMirror:
Lol. That guy is a 5 star actor. The best Nigeria ever produced

More like a low budget amateur nollywood film, i sometimes wonder if folks submit their brains at the entrance before entering the synagogue.

I mean how can they not just see these circus shows and cheap unconvincing scams...

Baffles me

HardMirror:
Hehehehe
Damn!
But we were all fools and gullible in our younger years. Can't believe how much I believed god was a miracle working god and all those crusades and books I read

The longer i remain atheistic the more amazed i am at myself that i once really believed all that myths, fables and superstitions