₦airaland Forum

plaetton:
I took my time to ponder and fully understand your question, especially in the context of evolution.

But , as luck would have it, and as I am sure even you can see that from the bolded, you have actually rendered your own question null and void.
It is a question that does not make any sense if you accept the bolded as true.

And that is one thing I love about you Josh, .. Your last statements always seem to contradict your first.
lol.

please answer the questions in the last paragraph. Educate me.

davien:
yes and no.....yes in the aspect that there are mutations that purely give advantageous benefits without any interaction with external forces and no in the aspect that neutral mutations becomes useful by natural selection...

Have you come across any mutations that give advantageous benefits that occur in nature spontaneously?

logicboy01:
false

Close-mindedness

Kay17:
Is the source of life equally life or some substance other than life?

The source of life is the source of life. I have no time for your gameplay.

wiegraf:
joshthefirst......

https://hotmeme.net/media/mememaker/d/5/7148-troy-nooooooo.jpg

Lol. Even wiegraf missed me too. I assumed you'd naturally be too proud to admit it.

Weah96:
Great, we're getting somewhere. What is this source of life that you speak of?

The source of life is the source of all things, logically defined as God.


Logically.

davien:
The process of evolution is performed by succesive generations of more successful mutations(beneficial or random) that natural processes favour.....through successful lineages more variations and other factors lead to even more diverse species....although evolution abides by some important laws or theorems...these are;

Dollo's law of irreversibility: Organisms that had inherited new traits cannot de-evolve into their basal forms....even avatisms(re-occurent ancestral features) cannot function as it once did....this is why reverse engineering is so difficult....individual mutations like colour,size,body size etc may fluctuate but the initial way such features were derived cannot be induced...
The meat of all this is that organisms that have acquired entirely new features cannot re-adapt such features to the way they were...and may actually become so specialized at its features that it cannot adapt to new changes..
We can't grow back our tails because they've been absorbed and there is nothing to build up on....
Darwins 2nd law of common ancestry; One branch of life cannot beget a fundamentally different kind(outside its ancestry)....they all belong to their irrespective genetic heirachies and taxonomic states and branch off into new ones....
This is to say a eukaryote will still branch off into a eukaryote(of varied features) that can never be classified outside of its ancestral feature....
This is why humans by taxonomy and definition are still apes(subsets actually)
ALTHOUGH IF YOU ARE REFERRING TO WHY THE ENERGY FOR SUCH A SYSTEM HAS NOT BEEN EXPENDED IT IS THE VERY REASON YOU EAT DAILY....TO PROVIDE IT WITH MORE ENERGY(BIOCHEMICAL POTENTIAL TO BE PRECISE)...
More to come.....busy at the moment...

You kept mentioning successive in your first paragraph. Do these successive beneficial processes occur spontaneously or not?

logicboy01:
Joshthefirst!!! I missed you, homie


oh by the way, morality has nothing to do with God

Lol.

Missed you guys too. Been very busy lately.


Yeah, and morality has everything to do with God.

benodic:
the mystery of death lies in proper understanding of what happens when the physical body is asleep and the person is dreaming.
in dreams you still retain your consciousness. sleep is afterall a temporal death and death is a permanent sleep.

The mystery of death can only be understood by grasping the foundation of Life.

Once a man denies the source of his life, he lapses into confusion on the subject of his death.

pesty100:
you really don't give a s*hit about how the child feels, the only thing you want to do is serve, and you re here talking about morality, you should be ashamed. Because your morality is to your master and not to morality

No. Our morality is to our master, the creator, and he commands us to do good by loving one another. So we do good to obey our master who commands us to love one another.

There is nothing like being moral to morality, as every man ultimately acts according to selfish interest, at one point or another.

Happy birthday Ishilove!

GooseBaba: This is the aspect of gra gra....

Check it...from time memorial man has made rules, lived by them and died by them... What ever is inscribed in the minds of humanity is survival. An infant knows when he/she cries it brings warmth and food...

Before the advent of your god in Nigeria. Africans already know of God/gods... Societal norms were created along man made rules and that of God for the sole survival of themselves which equates to humanity.

Your gra gra is part of mankind is in the hands of man.. The missionaries succeeded in Nigeria that's why we have the likes of you.. If ISIS succeeds in their gra gra the dynamic in that region will change and people will conform for survival reasons...

From time immemorial, men have been lost.

Men can only achieve peaceful survival when they come to terms with good and evil, with right and wrong. Imbalance in the notion of these basic objective things is what brings chaos to societies today. Is what twists a man, is what creates psychopaths who condone psycopatic killing as far as it satisfies selfish dominant interest. That in its intrinsic nature is wrong. Perverted. Communities rise and fall, but we can only stand strong among ourselves and to God when we come to terms with this.

Isis might stand to win that war, but there will be some who will refuse to stand with Isis in those regions, inspite of empty survival interests, they will stand for good.

One example.

A glass of cold water and hot water are placed close. Heat naturally flows from the hot glass to the cold glass until equilibrium is obtained.

Heat will not spontaneously flow from the cold glass to the hot glass, causing the cold glass to get colder and the hot glass to get hotter. Why?

It is in keeping with the 2nd law.
Natural processes which require energy transfers will always go for the state of increased entropy.

Evolution is claimed to be a natural process, does it result in an increase or decrease in entropy?

Correct any lapses I might have, Thank youm

davien: joshthefirst please define what you understand the 2nd law to be and please be very clear on all the terms you use.....
By the way are you a creationist?

I see plaetton has refused to reply me. Maybe you can.


The second law of thermodynamics is the law of increasing entropy.

It states that the universe is always moving towards a greater state of disorder or entropy.
-Anything that happens spontaneously leads to increased entropy
-Processes that result in an increase in organization(a decrease in the 'spreading out' of energy, a decrease in entropy) will always require energy input and ARE NOT SPONTANEOUS.

Note that this law applies to isolated systems, of which earth is not a part. Note also that the term 'disorder' can sometimes be gravely misinterpreted as entropy which is largely used to connote statistics in energy processes and evaluations.

I have no bone to pick, just questions to ask.

I know the earth is not an isolated system, but that is not enough of a justification to me, I still need some issues sorted out.

What drives the evolution process? What causes this seeming 'achievement' of evolution we see in organisms today?

What drives the purpotedly blind process?

plaetton: Define entropy in your own words.

A measure of randomness or Chaos. A measure of the tendency of a system to degrade or randomize over time.

sonOfLucifer: Who cares about your fucking beliefs Chrestard. Your belief doesnt change a thing about fact. Men are their own gods.

The fact is that men will answer to the true God.

plaetton: This is the general problem with you guys..
How can you say you want to have a discussion on a scientific subject matter , and the first you do is to introduce magic, superstition and myth into it.
When you do that, how exactly do you expect us to react than to mock you?

"A directed process must have director" is a silly proposition that does not belong anywhere close to a scientific argument.

OK.

Answer my question without dodging:

Does evolution lead to an increase in entropy?

GooseBaba: In some cultures, circumstances and religious beliefs these acts are not wrong..

I know a diplomat from Ethiopia who said from his tribe/clan telling lies is part of their cultural norms..

When it comes to stealing ask Wallstreet....

When it comes to raape ask those in the middle east that raape women because they dishonored their families...

Honor killings.... Etc.. At the end of the day the destiny of mankind is in the hands of man...no gra gra inside.

so human's determine what's right or wrong to you?

What about God?
Do you think he has a say?

I believe God determines what's right or wrong, irrespective of what we or our tribes or religions think.

I also believe God gives us a conscience that is in coalition with his law. Inscribed in the minds of humanity.

plaetton: "Energy can only be directed by a director" ??
Wow!
I am speechless.

I suppose that every process is also directed by a processor?
Lol.
When will evolve beyond this kindergarten level of reasoning.

and when will you choose to address a point instead of argue over words?

You seem to have nothing to offer. If you don't, then move from my path.

Behind every guided process there is a mastermind. Every process that results spontaneously will result in disorganization.

sonOfLucifer: They are all necessary. Is hunger wrong?

wrong doing is necessary?


Hunger isn't wrong. Its a physiological process.

sonOfLucifer: What is wrong? The purpose of life is survival by any means necessary. Nature has no time for the weak and feeble.

So things like lying and stealing and rape aren't wrong?

Sorry Guys. I apologize for the long time it took to reply.

Been busy lately

sonOfLucifer: Yes, you should. You are who you are.

So I should embrace psychopathic murder because I am who I am?

Even when I kill others in the process?

Even when I do wrong in the process?

plaetton: I am certainly not a physicist, and cannot figure out why I need to be one.

But to put it simply in my own little understanding, I would say since everything in existence, every atom, every particle is in motion, then everything is motion-driven to interact. Interactions bring bring temporary and sometimes permanent changes.
So, everything is in a cycle within a cycle within a cycle, .......

Evolution of the universe, the galaxies, the planets, organic life etc are just the manifestations of the different cycles within cycles of cycles.

For example, all living things on earth have a pulse that is part of and modulated our earth's own pulse. The earth's own pulse is also modulated by the pulse of our star, the Sun, which itself is part of the pulse of our galaxy system . And of course, our galaxy system resonates with the pulse of the universe.
In other words, all interactions of matter, all motions, all frequencies in the universe resonate of and with the original energy of the big bang.

So, simply trying to tie in the 2nd law of thermodynamics with with evolution cannot be explained to you in the soft and chewable and kindergarten format that you may wish.

But , do you dispute the fact that species evolve, or is your problem the fact that you don't understand how it happens?

Sorry sir. This is ranting.


The second law states that the universe tends to increasing entropy. Every act of organization and advancement requires directed energy. Energy can only be directed by a director.

That is my stance.

So how does the organization of evolution take place?

sonOfLucifer: We are all sexual beings. There's nothing sexually im
immoral. Be creative. Embrace your carnality for that's all you are.

what if I'm a psychopath(an intelligent one at that) who gets creative gratification from mutilating others?


Should I embrace?

cococandy: Perv alert!

For 10 year olds,there's everything wrong with it.

For adults? To each their own. It doesn't matter what style of cake it is.

hey.


What's the difference?

sonOfLucifer: Is it your opinon that evolution contradicts the 2nd law of thermodynamics? How so?
As an aside, why is a discussion on evolution in the religion section? Isn't there a science section on this forum?

I want to know your opinion on the matter before I make mine know.

Let's keep asides aside. I'm not the first person opening this kind of topic here. I open it here because the pals I want to have the discussion with congregate here.

mmsen: If you were serious about seeking an answer you would ask the requisite authorities.

There are scientists who have spent their entire adult lives looking into evolution and have written books on the matter - why not find some of their work instead of asking on the Nairaland Religion Forum.

Evolution is a scientific issue, it is a question of faith or a personal matter in the vein of religion it is very much a question of evidence, proof and other words that will probably frighten you.

You should simply say you have no opinion on the matter instead of giving excuses.

Yo! People!


I need some help from my evolutionist friends. How do you guys reconcile the 2nd law of thermodynamics with your worldview?

What is your opinion then, of the 2nd law, and how it applies to evolution?

Plaetton. Evil brain.

What do you think about the processes involved in evolution? Do they need a driving force or not?

And if you say evolution drives itself(someone has said that before. Lol. Its quite unreasonable), explain in a nutshell how it does.

Eagerly awaiting your answers.

plaetton: Bolded in red is what you posted.

And you now you are twisting and denying.


So, something , a living thing that produces neurochemicals and aid in neural processes, as well as produces substances that the body utilizes in the expression of certain genes does not , by their activities influence your mental development, and ultimately your social behavior?
Is that what you are saying?




Now compare your words in red with your words in blue.
How many contradictions can you spot?
All coming from one person, with the bonus of insults too.

Ignoring the fact that you actually didn't address my point at all, just chose to argue over words, and make it look as if I have been insulting you when I have only been speaking the truth, I will address the bolded very simply.


What I have been opposing from the on start, is not that that they influence mental debelopment and social behaviour, it is your nonsense interpretation of that fact, including the way you claim they do so for their own benefit, which is basically wrong.

They influence development the same way sunlight and water influence germination of a seed. The seed has a working relationship with the sun's rays and water in its environment, they influence its germination and keep influencing its activities as a plant, mind you. They are essential in its biochemical processes. Remember an imbalance of these essential factors can cause damage or impairment to the plant or seed.

This does not mean that they manipulate the processes of the plant for their own benefit. It only means they produce useful things needed in the development of the plant.


So the natural microflora produce useful things needed for our development, does not necessarily mean that they sirectly manipulate us for their own benefit. They are not pathogens.


I'm a good teacher, as you can see. I did not come here to explain scientific information though. It'll cost you next time Sir. Your nonsense ideology has been refuted for good. Come up with something better next time.

plaetton: A good way to spot a dumb person is when the person throws big words around in order to make it seem that he knows what he is talking about.

Did you just say pathological conditions??

What is your definition of pathological conditions?

Let me slowly show you how really dumb , daft you dishonest you are.


1. The is what you just posted. The very same thing you have been arguing against for all this thread.
So there are cases where microbes will influence the body's biochemistry for their own benefit? REALLY?
Gosh!!
Doesn't that make every st.u.p. i. d thing you have written in this thread null and void?

2. ...and Pathological conditions
So are you, a medical student, saying to the public here on NL that microbes ONLY influence the body's biochemistry for their own benefit ( a huge admission) when the body is in pathological condition ( When the body is already stricken by diseased) ?
Unbelievable.! Just unbelievable !

You st.u.pid m.o.r.on, have you not been reading all along this very thread , have you not read in your textbooks, have you not been taught THAT many varieties of microbial flora are the causes of the pathological conditions that you are blabbing about?.

Pls Pls Pls, no more.

Can someone tell this man to calm down and go back and read my posts. That is what I have been arguing for not against.
You on the other hand, maintain obtusely as the point of your thread that microbes whether pathogenous or not are always showing dominant influence on mental and psychophysical conditions, a blatant lie.

And You employ another twisting tactic in an effort to discredit me. I did not say the microbes will only influence our bodies to their own benefit WHEN THE BODY IS ALREADY STRICKEN WITH DISEASE. I SAID THEIR ACTING FOR THEIR OWN BENEFIT WILL LEAD TO DISEASE CONDITIONS, THAT IS WHAT I MEANT. Dominant influence of a microbe will obviously be harmful to its host. Or are you ignorant of that also?

Lolz. You're trying to twist my words for your own benefit to save face. Pitiful.

35th post, note the bolded:

Joshthefirst: We talk about the bodies NATURAL microflora here, not pathogenic viral cells. I have summarized simply the relationship between the body and these bacteria. The brain relies on some of their products to sustain neural processes, and the body has taken advantage of their 'prescence' to help in the manifestation of some genes and so on. Of course, there are cases where things go wrong sometimes, resulting in abnormal mental or physical conditions, which can sometimes be treated. (Edited)
For you to say that they willingly interfere with our conscious choices, actually leading us to take actions for their benefits is idiotic and laughable on a grand scale. I cannot even believe i am having this conversation with a so called learned man. This is what happens when people try to subjectively twist scientific facts to match their beliefs.

Every time I said microbes, I was talking about the natural microflora, which work for our benefit, not for theirs, except they become pathogens.

You have still shown us no evidence that the NATURAL MICROFLORA OF THE HUMAN BODY TWISTS OUR MINDS AND INFLUENCES OUR BEHAVIOURS TO THEIR OWN BENEFITS, WHICH WAS THE VERY POINT OF YOUR THREAD AND THE BASIS OF YOUR PUERILE ASSUMPTIONS.

I have never seen you in a helpless state of trying to twist someone's argument to save face before. What a pity.

plaetton: No one ever said or implied that
What is the definition of a pathogen?


A pathogen is a biological agent that causes disease or illness to its host.


If you had any comprehension skills , you would have understood from my second post that the body is an entire ecosystem of microbial flora.
In kindergarten language, an ecosystem means that it includes many many diverse varieties and cultures of microbes, including the good, the bad and the ugly. I also said that they exhibit social behavior that include peace and harmony, as well as conflicts and wars.
If you had understood that part, you would not be asking daft questions.


Oh my Gosh.

I am sooo tired of this senseless argument .
I have really exhausted my patience with you on this , and I am realizing that you either very daft or very dishonest, or both.

First, without reading or thinking, you fire insults at me, then later you agree to everything that I have written, things that are not simply my opinions , but are scientifically observed facts.
But rather than humble yourself, your daft ego continues to carry you on a merry-go-round.
At the end of the day , you are actually arguing with yourself, against yourself.

No wonder you fail your exams.

You have said almost nothing essentially. Just meaningless rants that i have to glean very thoroughly to get any substance.

Look at the definition of pathogen you gave very well and tell me how that applies to the microbes which the body forms useful relationships with actually influence our minds for their own benefit.

You started a thread stating clearly that the microbes living in us influence our psychology for their own benefit, I correct you, telling you that it is actually the body making use of its natural microflora for its own benefit, and that the inly cases where microbes will influence a persons biochemistry for their own benefit is in pathological conditions.

You then gave an excerpt confirming my very words.
Then proceeded to write utter nonsense.

I have been making sense All this while. You have not. You keep talking unfounded nonsense and twisting basic easily graspable scientific knowledge to meet your twisted dogma.

You have still shown us no evidence that the NATURAL MICROFLORA OF THE HUMAN BODY TWISTS OUR MINDS AND INFLUENCES OUR BEHAVIOURS TO THEIR OWN BENEFITS.

If you need me to explain this facts for you, ask. No need to run off and make stuppid conclusions.