₦airaland Forum

plaetton: Mr Einstein, the bone of contention here is not whether is no whether a relationship exist or not between the microbial flora or the body, or whether imbalances occur or not. No sir, that has long been agreed upon.

The bone of contention here, sir artful dodger, is the the microbes deliberately and choreographically MANIPULATE our body chemistry for their EXCLUSIVE BENEFIT.

The scientific article repeated that assertion many times. It is not even a subject of debate.
I can always excuse and pardon you for ignorance and empty-headed silliness, but I cannot excuse you for dishonestly, which you have clearly displayed thus far.

pathogens deliberately manipulate our body chemistry for their benefit. This results in disease conditions which the article clearly stated.

You are the one clearly being dishonest and obtuse

TheBigUrban2: FrancisTony, Reyginius, Joshthefirst,


You guys are all science students.


So, what do you guys do as christians when you enter a science museum and you see a evolution display that shows man's evolution from early primates/apes to homo sapiens?


What would you tell your children if you took them to a science museum? Would you tell them amongst other strangers and children that science is false?

Would you ban your children from science museums?


https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/05/33/3e/cc/three-gorges-museum.jpg

evolution isn't science. Its dogma.

I'll explain that clearly to my children, and to every one I can before I die.

I will work up a reputation for myself as a remarkable, diligent man, I already am. I will be too valuable to be ignored, inspite of my antagonistic stance of truth against the mainstream dogma of our day.

plaetton: Ok.
Here comes the first wave of butthurt for joshthefirst.

You stated that microbes do not deliberately manipulate our biochemistry for their own benefit. Right ?
You even called me derogatory names for suggesting so. Right?

Well, you are dead wrong, sir.
Never argue from a position of ignorance.


http://mpkb.org/home/pathogenesis/microbiota/interaction

Here are some important excerpts from the text:
Note the bolded in RED.

1. "The genomes and the respective proteomes of microbes in the body frequently interact with those expressed by their human hosts. This is a key part of what is know as the interactome. The “massive”1 co-occurrence of protein-coding genes between microbes and humans speaks to the survival advantage of such homology, and the extent to which sequence overlap may play a key role in disease. Indeed, manipulation of host cell fate and orchestrated choreography of inflammatory responses are recurrent themes in the strategies of microbial pathogens. 2 Bacteria affect host-cell pathways and human gene expression through a number of increasingly well-documented ways."

2.
" Expanding on this work, Trost et al. performed a pentapeptide and hexapeptide analyses of sequence similarities between bacterial and human DNA.9 He demonstrated that there does not exist a single human protein that does not harbor a bacterial pentapeptide or hexapeptide motif; as the team writes, “not even one.”

3. Bacterial pathogens have used many clever strategies to exploit the interior of host cells to their benefit, by manipulating intracellular trafficking pathways or targeting specific intracellular niches. The challenge facing the cell-mediated immune system is to detect and eliminate these pathogens.

M.S. Glickman and E.G. Pamer 31

Conversely, harmful bacteria may deregulate genes mediating energy metabolism, and can produce toxins that mutate DNA, affecting the nervous and immune systems. The outcome is various forms of chronic disease, including obesity, diabetes and even cancers.32 33 34

Liping Zhao

You Sir, are foolish.

Your very excerpt exposes your foolishness

I made sure to explain that the body makes good use of its relationship with the natural microflora, except in imbalance during disease conditions, which can(or could) be treated clearly pointing out the stupidity in your assumption that at any moment in time we're all being influenced directly by the bacteria living within us.

You then bring up an article clearly confirming my point that during disease conditions(unusual conditions of unwellness), there is an imbalance, which causes disease.

And you think you have a pointpoint.
Another ignorant man is cheering you on. Well done sir.
You have truly proved me wrong.


Arrant nonsense.

plaetton: Big laugh .
The thing about you Josh, which I have mentioned severally, is that you say one thing in one sentence, and then contradict it with a second sentence.

Here, for example, you agree that they influence mental development, immunity , as well as susceptibility to certain diseases, notably neurological malfunctions, yet in another sentence you are denying the LOGICALLY OBVIOUS fact that they therefore interfere with our body chemistry FOR THEIR OWN SURVIVAL NEEDS, and in the process influence our social behavior.

Be careful with your choice of words. I have been patient with you.
You are setting up yourself for a BIG BUTTHURT.

We will soon see who is being idiotic in this issue.

Nonsense. Lolz. Is this supposed to be a valid rebuttal?



Notice how plaetton has begun to insert subtle words to try to buffer up his foolish conclusions.


One big question: how do these microbes influence the brain development and neurological processes?

Layman's Answer: They produce neurochemicals and aid in neural processes, they also produce substances that the body utilizes in the expression of certain genes.

Plaetton makes it look like these microbes deliberately regulate amounts of the beneficial substances they produce or directly influence our biochemical pathways for their own benefits

Idiotic and laughable.
Pathetic.

plaetton: This is laughable coming from someone who should know a lot about microbiology.
In fact, manipulating the body's biochemistry for their own benefit is exactly what all microbial flora do.
How can you ever deny that?

Let me ask you, does a virus manipulate the host cell's dna for it's own benefit?
Pls answer.

We talk about the bodie's NATURAL microflora here, not pathogenic viral cells. I have summarized simply the relationship between the body and these bacteria. The brain relies on some of their products to sustain neural processes, and the body has taken advantage of their 'prescence' to help in the manifestation of some genes and so on. Of course, there are cases where things go wrong sometimes, resulting in abnormal mental or physical conditions, which can sometimes be treated. (Edited)

For you to say that they willingly interfere with our conscious choices, actually leading us to take actions for their benefits is idiotic and laughable on a grand scale. I cannot even believe i am having this conversation with a so called learned man. This is what happens when people try to subjectively twist scientific facts to match their beliefs.

plaetton: I am not twisting anything. i am just putting in simple language what is already scientifically known.

Ok. Lets make this simple.

Pls let me know which of these statements you disagree with.

1. You agree that gut flora affects brain development. Yes or NO ?
2. That gut flora is associated with many human diseases, including neurological diseases. Yes or No ?
3. That gut flora interferes with our our body chemistry. Yes or No ?
4. That gut flora manipulate our body chemistry for their own benefits. Yes or No?

4 is wrong for Pete's sake. Especially the bolded.

plaetton: Ok. So you Joshthefirst, a medical student, is here on record denying the scientific fact that the gut flora affects brain development, is associated with many diseases, and interferes with our body chemistry for their own benefit?

Please confirm if this is what you are denying.

Before I make you eat your own words, I advise you to quickly go back and read up on this and come back.

Don't let your foolish human ego obstruct your absorption of scientific facts.

I will give you some time.

I DENY THE BOLDED.

You are the one twisting scientific facts in this case.

TheBigUrban2:

What happened? You used to face disbelievers but now you dodge with your vague answers....

No time to waste on foolishness.

Truth eludes men who lie to themselves you know.

Dragonking: ^^^You forgot to answer the question below...

The question is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

If you won't believe foundational basic things, why should I waste my time?

plaetton: I am the source. The bolded is an extrapolation from facts that are widely known and accepted.

That gut microbial flora affects the body in general, and brain development in particular, is the abc of medical school.
So I don't know where you are coming from.

First, whatever influences your brain development influences your social behavior.
Your social behavior influences the choices that you make, not only as an individual, but as a group at the general level of society and civilization.

Secondly, there is nothing controversial or hotly debated about the biological facts presented. The information is widely available in the public domain, something that I thought a medical student should be well aware of.

There are tons of studies on this subject, most notably at Harvard.
I challenge to do your due diligence and come back with a rebuttal , if you can.

It is well known that the body has a connection with its natural microflora, and that the brain has developed an adaptive relationship with the microbes in the body, especially those in the gut, but your extrapolation is jumping hurdles.

Gut bacteria do not influence our bodies chemistry to satisfy their whims. That is a bold and idiotic lie I'm afraid.

They affect the expression of certain genes and they produce certain neurotransmitters for the bodie's benefit.

Lolz. 'They influence our bodies to satisfy their whims'. Lol. This man won't kill me before my time.



Edit: You turn it the other way round as if the normal microflora are behind our essense and conscious actions. You misunderstand(deliberately it seems). The brain has simply formed a 'beneficial' relationship with these organisms, relying on their products to run certain mental and psycho physical actions. Thats a simple way to put it. You turn things upside down in an effort to merge scientific findings with your nihilistic and shallow, self-degrading world view.

I can see some have already swallowed your nonsense hook, line and sinker.


All your 'extrapolations' are more like the ravings of a mad man.

Good day Sir.

plaetton: As a medical student, you are a person who should be familiar with the world of microbiology.
Now, which of the statements above would you say is not part of what you learned in your studies?
Which sounds strange and untrue to you?

Is it that there 100 trillion microbes in the average human body?
Is that they outnumber our body cells by 10 to 1?
Is it that their Genetic materials outnumber ours by a factor of about 100?
Is it that gut microbial flora affect brain development, diseases and social behavior ?
Or is it that microbes have social lives?

The gut flora influences brain development and behavior, social behavior for that matter . They influence our body chemistry to satisfy their whims.
The domain of influence of these microbes on our lives include brain development, learning, unlearning, likes and dislikes, intimate preferences, risk tolerance, addictive and compulsive behaviors, our cultures, and of course, subsequently the rise and fall of civilizations.
Yup.

Source for the quoted, especially the bolded.

Lol.


Source of the studies please

Candour: Olaa, read my post which you quoted again. Focus on the last statement and tell if that sounds like perching on a fence

lol

mazaje: The wages of sin is death sis not the same as he who does not believe is condemned already. . .The bible is very clear on what it says in John 3:18. . . who ever believes in Jesus is not condemned is what it says, it then goes on to say that who ever does not believe in Jesus is condemned already because they refuse to believe in god's only son. .It clearly states the reason .That is pretty clear, i really do not know what you are on about. . .

Good. You choose not to know even after all I've been saying. You choose to cling to a verse you do not understand in your effort to justify your stuppid point of view. Suit yourself.

Weah96: This is a contradiction of an earlier statement made by you in this very thread. You said quite clearly that no one goes to hell for unbelief. Here you are now claiming that unbelief and evil are one and the same. In other words, if someone doesn't believe that an obscure Hebrew figure is the son of an invisible God, then that person must be driven by evil.

The bolded is a misinterpretation of my words. I do not know if it is deliberate though. Go back and read up what I've been saying. I'm tired of typing the same thing. It seems you're hard of hearing.

Weah96: Fine, let's consider the case of our Muslims brothers and sisters.They have accepted Allah, who promises them everlasting life filled with all kinds of bountiful goodies. In return, they are to use their bodies as vessels of incessant worship and adoration. Complete submission.

They are being told a lie. An illogical lie for that matter, than only a few questions will expose. I am comissioned to tell them the truth.

Weah96: Are you saying that righteous Muslims are going to heaven even though they do not accept Jesus as Lord and personal savior? They seem to pass your litmus test for entry.

There's no such thing as righteous muslims. And no one has ever passed the requirements for entry as no one has ever been righteous. We have all done a form of wrong or another. We are all guilty. Inspite of our 'goodworks', we still do bad everyday. This is the dilemma we're in, and this is the dilemma that God sent Jesus to solve. Trust in him releases mercy.

Its like being found guilty of committing a crime and telling a judge you've been doing good. No. a righteous judge will judge based on the crime youve commited. Your only hope is then to accept you're guilty, and obtain mercy. Mercy is provided because Jesus came and paid the fine on your behalf. He served your sentence, paid your punishment and offers you new life.

I will not repeat this again. It is after hearing this good news that a man who seeks salvation repents and trusts in Jesus and is saved. But a man who is drawn to evil spouts nonsense and tries to justify himself or rejects it because of his love for the poison that will drive him to hell.

Weah96: They have belief, Allah has promised to take care of them. They obey the ten commandments. They have fulfilled all your requirements, accept using their mouths to say a few magic words. Your God says he's going to roast them, next to me, maybe even side by side. You do believe this, do you not?

Just 'belief' wont save any man.

And no. They do not obey the 10 commandments. No one has ever obeyed them. Everyone is guilty of that law. But some are saved from the repercussions, as I have already amply explained. Others reject salvation and bear the full weight of their unrighteousness in hell, as I have amply exolained. Unbelief in truth stems from evil in the heart you see. And the evil weight will cause you to sink down into the deep realms of eternal seperation from everything made good and holy by God.

And Yes. I do not know if its a literal roast, but you will be thrown into the realms of hell, maybe into deeper realms than they. If you continue in life and die as a guilty sinner.

warrior01: what a great relief! After all, most Nigeria doctors are utterly useless. imagine some of them denying their profession and others tending their resignation letters just because they heard Ebola is in town. Thank God for the able agbo sellers

Your conclusion of Nigerian doctors uselessness is this? That's wrong.

Please give us better reasons for justifying the sac. Smh. You will be the one to suffer in the end when you look for health care and don't find any.

mazaje: You have not said anything meaningful. . .The bible very clearly says that belief in Jesus is the only hing that saves people, as long as you do not believe you are condemned already. .So why are you talking trash about good deeds and other nonsense?. . .From the bible:

[i]
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son [/i]John 3:18

Why should people be condemned and thrown into fire just for not believing in a story that is unbelievable?. . .I notice it doesn't make sense to you that is why you are trying to run away from it by doing some gymnastics that makes no sense at all . . .

By the way,hope you know that you will also burn in allah's hell for not accepting Mohammed his last messenger and the Koran which he revealed to mankind?. . .You keep talking all over the place. . .

I remember I and another guy explaining very clearly to you that Man is already condemned because he has done wrong. Refusal of the only solution leaves you in hopelessness.

You're a deliberately thick headed man and yours is to deliberately throw away meaning so that your foolish and meaningless notions of life will hold water.

The wages of sin is death.

mazaje: You are just all over the place, all have sinned how?. . .There are muslims, hindus, taoist, atheist, Shinto etc that don't kill, don't commit adultery, don't steal, try as much to love their neighbors as they love themselves, stay away from trouble etc. . .You said people will be punish for sins, now you say all have sinned. . .What the hell are you on about?. . .The bible clearly says that he that does not believe in the message of Jesus is condemned already. . .It also says Jesus is the only way to god. . .Those that do not believe in Jesus will perish according to the bible, not those that do good, because the bible says people's righteous acts are like filthy rags in the eyes of god. . .So it all boils down to one thing, which is believe in Jesus and be saved disbelieve and burn in hell for eternity. . .The question is why should people suffer in eternity just because they disbelieve in some stories that lack evidence?. . .As a christian remember that you will also burn in allah's hell for not believing in his own revelation and his last prophet Mohammed.

As I said, all I see here is you deliberately misinterpreting and ignoring my points and doggedly clinging to your own idiotic notions. Going around the same table barking like a rabid dog refusing to let anyone stop you.

I have told you a simple thing, explained a very simple child-like point of life and you go around ignoring it?

Please what is difficult to grasp in the fact that everyone, including you and I have done some form of wrong, and ought to be punished for it?

The only difference is that i have accepted someone elses's substitution and mercy and gained a new life, while you in your love for evil reject it and doggedly cling to meaningless foolishness.
I have said enough as a witness.

Goodbye.

Kay17: The natural progression of a spermotazoa is definitely in the path of a full human.

no. Actually. The natural progression of a spermatozoon ends at fertilization. Until then it is only a cell. After fertilization, conception, the zygote is made, a developing human being.

Trying to shift borders is simply dishonest.

^^^

Excellent rebuttal Sir!

musKeeto: But somehow those who were born before Jesus have a different standard from those who have never heard the gospel, right?

yes. Those who have never heard the gospel.

mazaje: That means good muslims, buddist, taoist, athiest, shinto, yidzis etc will all go to heaven. . . Since they don't steal, cheat, fornicate, murder, etc. . . .

there's no such thing as good Muslims and such.

None is good

Everyone has sinned. Including you and I.

mazaje: Punishment is supposed to be humane and it is also supposed to fit the crime. . Why should a person burn in fire for 1000 years just for unbelief?. . .isn't that sadistic and barbaric?. . .

nonsense.

You have a habit of clustering nonsense together and giving it to someone to interpret, and then misinterpreting and ignoring simple interpretations given.

How many times have I told you that no one goes to hell for unbelief? You go to hell for stealing and lying and greed etc. Not primarily for unbelief. Its like saying someone will be put in jail because he doesn't believe he exists.

And there's notime in eternity. You're here to show where your loyalty lies. If you prove rebellious here, you'll be ostracized with the rebellious ones.

1ord: Pls save your preaching for your mugu congregation

Lol. Maybe you didn't even read his post. Just saw the moniker and lashed out foolishly. SMG. Coming from an educated 20 year old who thinks for himself. Shame.

Weah96: This is a very Machiavellian proposal. The OP is arguing that Christian morality comes from a dictator who dishes out the most gruesome punishment imaginable to disobedient offenders.

Offenders. Yes.

Offenders will be punished always. Being angry with this notion is hypocritical. As even the secular humanitarian society which you support punishes offenders.

Human law is also enforced. Obedience to societal law is two-fold. Out of love for society and out of fear of the fierce hand of the law.

Foolish men whining hypocritically and baselessly.

1ord: Please don't just jump to conclusions without facts and looking at various perspectives i don't know where all these pseudo intellectuals got access to internet from. These individuals or societies did these heinous act out of a sense of morality.This is because morality religion and all that bullsh.it clouds ones judgement . Furthermore on a deeper level they must have felt such a moral act such as ethnic cleansing would better their society or lead to the survival of it or themselves as an individual . Sorry to ask but how did you pass your waec. I am barely above 20 and i am educating your sorry ass pls kill yourself. Furthermore morality is a matter of perspective such as the people of Akwa ibom pounded their twins because it was moral. Pls think for yourself don't let a set of ideologies some cave men set for you define you.

Lol. A foolish proud man who thinks his thinking is correct and others are false simply because he is irreligious.

Unable to realize his state because his neck is too high in the clouds.

Come down and stop speaking loftily, eve if you were passing a valid point, no one would listen to your airy words unless they had to, or they are of like minded shallow pride.

Kay17: @TV01 I'm not trying to be sneaky, rather trying to admit you to my side. Human rights are recognized for the sanctity of life and personhood, so such rights are inalienable especially for reasons like sacrifice. So if a foetus has a real right to life, it would be adverse to the mother's life also. So one must admit that women just have a natural right which they can easily enforce over the foetus.

Besides the foetus is as much potential as egg and sperm. Nonetheless please see my arguments as being without malice or deceit.

last paragraph is wrong actually. A blatant lie.

The foetus IS a developing human, a conceived and developing one.

The egg or sperm is not.

princesa: I'm not mixed, my mum is. She's part yoruba and Igbo. So i got a yoruba grandmother, aunty and an uncle

sometimes, when we do wrong, my dad would often say its the yoruba blood in us acting. Crazy


I Wish I was mixed though

why?


My father is Igbo. My mom is Yoruba.

There're many factors, but the major one for us should be environmental.

What the Child is exposed to after birth and during formative years; training and knowledge, would determine if he's 'intelligent' or not.

Remember intelligence can be increased, and remember intelligence is useless without knowledge, eg a person may be intelligent, but could also be very ignorant and closeminded.



Edited. Previous post offensive.

Interesting thread. I am prone to bidams view as I think it scriptural.

I have some questions though Sir:

1. Is the five-fold ministry intended as a leadership board God set up for each local body?

2. Some local bodies are not grown enough to have all ministers of the five-fold ministry present or available yet. What about that?


I believe the Church is more than a private branch-like denominational pentecostal body. I believe it is made up of men working under the holy Spirit, who have been called to do different edifying things, and I believe these men, these leaders of the Church today, should also work together, as members of the same body, and be regionally cooperative even if they have different ministerial names.

Most importantly I believe they should be accountable to each other, as we all have the Holy Spirit. It is dangerous for a man not to be accountable to close brothers.
I have seen God always put someone around me every time, whom I am accountable to. Who corrects me sometimes, and who bears me witness, that I too am guided by the Holy Ghost.

We see only very little of this in our region of battle, Nigeria. I have been praying though, that the church will rise and come together as a true body, and work together, God giving it increase.

I believe We should always be accountable to our brethren of like mind Sir.

Alwaystrue(ma'am ), please join this conversation.

mazaje: You that understand you view point, can you pls explain to me why your god thinks that having people beheaded, rapeeed and starved to death in such a dishonorable way is the best way he feels they can come join him?. . .

Because men standing for truth will always be rewarded in the end. God will reward those who stand for truth, and he will crush injustice in the end.

You are a hopeless man, and your ranting here is meaningless. It is wrong for inncent people to die in that manner, but they have hope. God still works, and he still reaches out to men, and there is a day he has set for judgement.

Those people hope in that day, and they trust in God. But you shouting nonsense here have no hope. And when God comes to judge, you will also occupy hell with the murderous men if you do not repent.

This is God speaking now. This is what he's doing. He's warning men to repent, he's also changing things as people of God pray. He's doing this through men. One day at the righteous end he will come in person and Judge.

If you want, mistake his mercy and patience as an act of weakness. When he judges one man, all must be judged, for he is a righteous God.

God will come to judge, he will crush you too, because you are not really different from those men who kill others because of religion. You are a sinner too.

Once.