₦airaland Forum

Mr Troll: at least the state is not omniscient. do you know what omniscience means?

do you know what freewill means?

free will
n.
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.


Man has the ability to choose. God knows the end, his final choice. But the choice is man's

The reason God will still warn and still advise one to make the right choice is already satisfied by the fact that he cannot infringe on one's choice.

Justice requires him to advise you like he advises everyone else to do good. To embrace salvation from sin. His love requires him to do everything possible as an omniscient God to stop his son from perdition, and that is what he has done by sending Jesus Christ.

Jesus salvation and sacrifice was truly genius. For God did it wothout violating his role as a judge and violating mans attribute as a free moral being.

He knows the end from the beginning, but the choice is yours. And one chooses, knowing full well the consequences of his choice. One chooses knowing full well the outcome of his choice. Just as adam and eve sinned knowing full well that they'd die. Knowing full well that they were disobeying.
In judgement, no one would be able to say: "why didn't you warn me judge?! To abstain from evil, to forsake the way of sin and damnation?!"
No. He warns even now. His omniscience does not come into play among us. Among us, the choice is ours, we cannot blame Gods omniscience for our damnation. Gods omniscience would be the very thing that would seal his verdict, for although he must have known your final choice, he gave you every oppourtunity to make a good one, and you refused.

So this world and this salvation is the best case scenario to save to the uttermost those who believe in Christ Jesus.

GeneralShepherd: If God knew I will always make my choice even before I was born,how is that choice mine!?

Someone pput the argument like this

1.A being with free will, given two options A and B, can freely
choose between A and B.
2. God is omniscient (all-knowing).
3. God knows I will choose A.
4. God cannot be wrong, since an omniscient being cannot have
false knowledge.
5. From 3 and 4, I will choose A and cannot choose B.
6. From 1 and 5, omniscience and free will cannot co-exist.

I have read many counter-arguments from apologetics sites,
but they were
either too technical (I couldn't understand them), or not
satisfying. so, I
was wondering what would your input be on this issue?
Thank you,
Justin

www.comereason.org/phil_qstn/phi038.asp

And d guy ended u running around in circles without providing answers!!

okay. My former statement has thrashed the whole argument.

God's omniscience does not infringe on mans freewill.
Judge what I s ay carefully. God knows the end from the beginning. Time and history itself is planned and written down.(But this is based on Gods foreknowledge of mans choice, his omniscience does not expand its borders to mans freewill.)

They're both exclusive on their own.

Its not a case in which you are programmed to do what is written, what is written is not even exclusively made known to you. The end of your choice and actions are just preknown, and everything is preplanned and predetermined based on Gods foreknowledge on the final choice you make.

Judas's name was not mentioned in scripture. Just as your name is not recorded as an inhabitant of hell. Try and understand what the bible says when it says I have called you and predestinated you. The bible says God commands everyman to repent. It does not mean God already has classified men who will repent and who won't by his own will(that would make us all robots not responsible for our actions)

It means that he has recorded your final destination based on his foreknowledge of your final choice

Therefore he does not infringe on the choice itself. The choice is yours to make. The oppourtunity lies with you. He gives the invite. He advises you to take the good way, to make the right choice. But you make the final choice.
The only difference is that it is known already by him.

GeneralShepherd: Why would come to save people you destined for hell..

Or are you saying that God doesn't know the exact number of people that will eventually go to hell before he created the world?

God knows, but God himself cannot infringe on mans freewill. He must give man a choice to make.
You choose your path. Be it rebellion or obedience.

GeneralShepherd: If there was true freewill God will not be omniscient!

Freewill cannot be an attribute bestowed to man by a supposedly omniscient God!!

If I know you every choice you will make through out your lifetime,how is the ability to make that choice yours?

How is the ability to make that choice not yours? God does not make choices for you. He is all knowing. That means he just knows the final choice you'd make. The decision is in your hands.

Freewill does not debunk Gods omniscience, it actually confirms it.

aManFromMars: You know that freewill leads to chaos. soldiers MUST obey.

soldiers are expected to obey and trust the decisions of their commanders. Any act outside of that is rebellion and treason.

GeneralShepherd: Well, I find it ridiculous that God will create man knowing fully well he will eat the forbidden fruit and still plant the tree anyway!!

Secondly, project man according to christian belief in my opinion is a failure!!

Why? If I were to develop a car the first products will be prototypes(Adam and Eve) if they failed the field tests,why would I continue production knowing my products were dead on arrival.

If Adam and eve who were direct products from God failed,how does God expect derivatives of that product to become perfect?!

And since God is all knowing He planned all this from time immemorial from creation,to the fall and the names of all that will go to hell.

But then God doesn't exists,because if there was a God,his logic will be airtight and not filled with the contradictions in the bible.

good, now we're getting somewhere. Man has freewill. God foreknows mans choices. He also foreknows the decisions man will take. He knows that some will rebel, and some will embrace obedience. That's why he came to save.



I can't give a comprehensive answer now, I'm indisposed.

nnofaith: why is it that when the christian god needs to pass a message to his "sheep" he sends a man?! cant the holy spirit just send a BBM message to everybody so that everybody is on the same page and there are no arguements. Yahweh needs to upgrade!

pathetic thinking. God will never bless your unbelieving heart with a sign.
God will not change his standards because of a man. He resists the proud.


1 Corinthians 1:22 Jews want miracles for proof, and Greeks look for wisdom. 23 As for us, we proclaim the crucified Christ, a message that is offensive to the Jews and nonsense to the Gentiles; 24 but for those whom God has called, both Jews and Gentiles, this message is Christ, who is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

macof: Yh midgets have height issues-that's an attribute that points imperfection

Smh.
Freewill is an attribute of man. Man was created good. But he chose to sin.
Others choose to follow God and not rebel against him.

macof: Smh ur thinking is pathetic

If we are to go by all ur post. Freewill wud b regarded as imperfection

if you would think well enough, you'd realize that freewill is an attribute.

Do you also agree that there is objective reality?

aManFromMars: Ambiguous, as we do not all share the same view of reality. I think truth is what is objectively verifiable e.g nature.

you agree that truth is objective then? And you agree that truth exists?

Kay 17: Truth is what's real. A bearing/conformity with reality.

what is reality in your opinion?

aManFromMars: It isn't because the ability it sin comes from God. Goot, goot.

lol shaa. Lol. You threw me off guard with your reply.

aManFromMars: It isn't because the ability it sin comes from God. Goot, goot.

smh.

GeneralShepherd: If man was created without a sinful nature it will be impossible for man to sin.

You can't give what you don't have..freewill or not!!

no. In the beginning, man was created in the image of God. He chose to sin. And it has given us all sinful natures now.

This does not mean we are not responsible for our sins, because, though we now know our predicament, we refused to accept Gods solution to our imperfection in Christ Jesus.

Though the old nations knew wrongdoing was wrong, they persisted and refused to trust Gods salvation like abraham did.

aManFromMars: In your opinion, an ability to sin isn't a sign of imperfection?

no. It is not.

aManFromMars: You talk like sin is a being. Sin isn't. You say Man was created Good and perfect, how then could Man sin?

yes sin isn't a being, but man is not a machine. Man was created perfectly sinless without a sinful nature. But he was created in the image of God and has freewill. Man could sin because it was his choice to choose to either reject God or submit to him and accept him.

aManFromMars: You've not answered my question. How do you know what's false is false?

I mean you know by the result of this gospel, and by looking at it in the light of Gods word.

Eg, the false gospel of prosperity is targeted at exploiting men and making men think that godliness is a means of financial gain, distracting them from the real blessings of christ.

The false gospel of "feel good" tells men that they have a longing in their hearts for jesus and tells them that if they receive jesus, things will be better, and they will fare well in life and prosper academically and financially, without telling men the true reason Jesus came, which is to save them from sin. Without telling men that the consequence of their sins is death, but that jesus came to give them life and justification.
The fruits are men who take God as a goodluck charm and who come to "try out" christianity and get what they did not bargain for, or who get into the throes of religion without actual repentance from sins.


The real gospel produces repentance and righteousness and godly sorrow for ones sin in man. That is the gospel of christ.

aManFromMars: Was man created perfect?

yes, God looked upon his creation, and everything was good. Yes. Man was created perfect.
Free from sin and the degredation that comes with it.

aManFromMars: Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

Isaiah 45:7(HCSB)
I form light and create darkness,
I make success and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things.

(WEB)
7 I form the light,
and create darkness.
I make peace,
and create calamity.
I am Yahweh,
who does all these things.

(NLT)
7 I create the light and make the darkness.
I send good times and bad times.
I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.

(NKJV)
7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things. ’

(GNT)
7 I create both light and darkness;
I bring both blessing and disaster.
I, the LORD, do all these things.

Zechariah 14:2
I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

the book of zechariah is a prophetic vision. Nowhere in it does God condone rape.

rationalmind: Okay good. Let's look at this example together. Male Northerners marry young ladies. They are simply following what their religion teaches. Now, if the northerner after marrying a young girl sleeps with her even though she consented, you and I will call that rape because the girl is not old enough to make the right decision about sex. But looking at it from the mans perspective, can we really say what he did was wrong? Remb his intention was just to practise what his religion preaches which mohammed(the best man to ever live in his eyes) did. Can he be prosecuted for rap.e?

wow. So if I steal from a bank with the perspective of giving to the poor, I am not doing wrong? So if I murder a man because I'm jealous, I'm not doing wrong?
Smh.

The law is broken irrespective of whatever perspective a person has.
Rape is wrong. Irrespective of whatever intentions a person has, even inside him, his conscience tells him it is wrong to force anyone to have sexual intercourse.

Logicboy03: Wow....this guy is funny!!!

The bible is now a science book that has his own classification of living things?

Oh and God didnt create animals abi? God didnt create lving things abi?

So it is man that created life in the form of bacteria, viruses and parasites




GUY, YOU ARE NOT THINKING

God created life. But he created it perfect, before man sinned, and life became imperfect and living things had to exploit other living things to survive.

aManFromMars: What makes one false and the other true?

Y'all are so confused.

the fruits of the false gospel makes it false, the fruits of the real goodnews makes it truly goodnews.

aManFromMars: I'm beginning to believe Josh is an atheist trolling us. His arguments is just so bullshit I don't even know where to start from. And even if you do, he plunges into more bullshit.

I'm wary of those who never claim to have everything figure out. The Bible is not a history book, never will be. It is not a science book, never will be.

It's a relevant to my life as a box of coco-pops.

sir. The bible tells the history of nations and peoples too, as well as the origins of man.
Man did not have a natural origin.

aManFromMars: Yet God ordered that female prisoners of war be ravished.

when did he do this? You have started again.

aManFromMars: Josh, god created evil. It is in the Bible.

please read that scripture from isaiah in other translations and get the original root words to understand what it says.

God will never cordone evil to any man. God only punishes sin with calamity.

rationalmind: Since you already want to end the discussion, why are you asking me what good intentions can be used to justify ra.pe.

You still keep repeating sin is sin. Even when uve been proven wrong, you stubbornly hold on to your position. Go back and read the examples I gave you on taoists and idolaters. I'm not a parrot, I can't be repeating the same thing over and over again. I can't talk to a wall.

how have you proven me wrong? You just tried to justify r.ape depending on the intentions of a rap.ist for pete's sake. I ask you for the intentions that can justify rape and you digress.

Just answer my question first before we continue into idolatry and others.

Logicboy03: There was no sin? Didnt Adam and Eve sin according to your bible? Didnt they sin as soon as they had their first temptation?
Didnt the serpent/lucifer sin before them? Do you read your bible upside down?

there was no sin among humans before adam and eve disobeyed. The world was perfect.

There was no death? Did God or the bible ever say that Adam and Eve would live forever? Remember that Adam and Eve had to eat......people with eternal lives do not have to eat- hunger wont kill them

adam and eve had physical bodies not yet tainted by the curse of sin. The bible says they ate yes, but it also says it was sin that brought about death, physical as well as spiritual.

There was no disease? Why didnt Adam and Eve eat their own feaces?

what nonsense is this? Smh.

Furthermore, God created the disease if he exists.....God created everything- both good and bad. I dunno why you blame man for disease. Were we the ones that created animals? Or have you forgotten that bacteria and viruses are living things?

God didn't create disease, just as he didn't create sin. Disease came about after men sinned, and living things began to exploit each other to survive.


And the bible has its own classification of living things just so you know.

rationalmind: Sin is not sin bro. The environment you grow and your indoctrination determines what you see as sin. I gave you the example of taosits and you didn't understand.

Here is another example. Millions of people worship what you refer to as gods. That to you is idolatry and a sin. To them, they are just worshipping what they believe and are convinced (the same way ure convinced) to be the sovereign God. Saying sin is sin is plain intellectual dishonesty and you know that.

You asked if ra.pe is wrong, you have once been answered already maybe not on this thread. Rape may and may not be wrong depending on the intentions of the rapists.

wow. We may as well end this discussion here sir. But let me ask you a question. What in your opinion, are the good intentions that can justify rape.
Smh.
Smh.

Sin is sin. I know environmental factors have a role to play, but they don't change this basic realization of wrong doing inherent in us all, even as babies, and you cannot deny the fact that there is a moral law written on human conscience. It is what judges and excuses us. It is what God will use to judge us.

There are many false gospels around.

But this is the real gospel of Christ.
Christ preached it, the apostles preached it, paul preached it, luther, spurgeon, finney, it goes on.


For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the free gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE through Jesus Christ our lord

Repentance from sin is the gospel of christ;
John preached repent for the kingdom of God is at hand,
Christ preached repemt
The apostles preached repent.

It is only when men realize the eternal death and hell which is the consequence of their sins that they will reach for the saviour, Jesus Christ, that they will repent and be saved.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Logicboy03: [size=18pt]To Joshthefirst[/size]





Isnt a technologically advanced world better? See how you contradict yourself? Are you not using technology to chat with atheists/xtians on NL?


Worse off, you then strawman as if Mr Troll and I were arguing that man is enjoying all around the world....No......the simple case is that we are better off than our long dead ancestors......humans are making progress





Common sense is not common. First use your brain to compare how many people and businesses have been transported accross the globe sucessfully (saving time and money) compared to those who have doed from any super speed deaths from the technology. Wouldnt it be clear that the advantages are so much more than the disadvantages?

BTW......the bible never said that there was perfection in the beginning. Adam and Eve were ignorant and naked according to the bible. So use your brain. If that is a perfect state for you, then you are silly.





What nonsense is this? The world works in a way such that bacteria and viruses evolve...so we will always have new diseases....the fact is that man is better equipped to fight any new disease while man has also cured many diseases of old. If this is not progress, you sir are silly.


You do realise that on abortion, people who believe in a God that meddles in human affairs are quite silly because the most common type of abortion is a natural one- a spontaneous abortion. God is the cheif aborter in this case.




I didnt know that you shared Italo's ignorance on forgetting the difference between communism and atheism.



Pornography is not the bes selling industry in the world.

In your biblical times, young girls were molested an abused.....nothing to stop underage sex.....child abuse. Your religion is no different from the Arabic pedophiles own.

I prefer a young girl watching pornography than she getting abused or married to an old man.

You mention drugs and se.x as if they didnt exist in your biblical times. As if drunkards and opium didnt exist at their time. You forget that we have rehab centres and we can deal with addiction better than before



Sin and Lawlessness abound in this present world? When last did you hear of a case of child sacrifice in the developed world? When last did you hear about chattel slavery?

You talk as if you are some holy person...as if I dont see you laughing and praising when some of your christian sisters abuse/troll others. Then you are here complaining that people like and acknowledge trash talkers.




1) Technological advancement means that one is technologically better....use your brain

2) There was never a fall of man. Read your bible. Adam and Eve were naked and ignorant. The fruit gave them knowledge and they saw that they were naked. Adam and Eve did not have televisions or nike shoes......they were cavemen. Sorry that is not perfection





Just as we have learnt to live better, we have also learnt to kill "enemies" better. We also have a lot more population compared to the past in the medieval times...





lawless deeds indeed....and you are one that has all the lawful deeds. You can not see that you are sounding like a pharisee.....judging others as if you the only one who can see the wrong things in this world....

When you are gossiping on the christian chatbox, are you not doing lawless deeds in the name of enjoyment? Would Jesus have a christian chatbox or would he be constantly be with sinners advicing them on the goodness of a righteous life?






Only Jesus saves.....meaning that Moses wasnt saved and that 4 billion people (millions of which never will know anything about the bible) will burn in hell while you watch from heaven.....Sadism at its peak

listen mehn.
There are two very basic things that concern man, these basic two give rise to a third. Natural Man sometimes chooses to ignore these things, but they form the very center of his life.
I do not say science and technology is not good, but I say that on the basis of this three things, which are part of the very crux of natural mans life, we are not better off, infact, we are worse off.

Sin and death are the first two, disease is the third.

Humans have delved further into sin and lawlessness and are actively defending their evil deeds. Today men invent new forms of evil. Pornography, abortion, sodomy, debauchery, man is becoming united on common grounds once more, and sin is spreading.

Humans die all the more today. The death rate is at 150,000 an hour. Death is more gruesome and strikes with disease and war. We are more populated? More of us have died in the last few years. We are more tackled to fight disease? Yes, we do our best, but sadly, the case of death and disease rages on even worse than before. Millions have died. Millions die.

We have never been advantaged since the fall of man. Before, there was no sin, or disease, or death.

Understand once more, that everyday, archaeology and science finds proof of our lineage and origins corresponding to what the bible tells us. Everyday prophecies are being fulfilled from the bible before our very eyes. This shows there is an agenda. This shows we living in the times spoken about most since the history of man. We are about to witness the most terrible days man will ever see. Judgement. From God.

Why would you choose to dismiss these things as fairytales when you know they're true?

Kay 17: It is not unexpected that you'd consider the subject of this thread unnecessary/unimportant. You are able to found your most important truths on mere faith, but can the truth be backed up by a lie?! No. Of what use is holding on to false beliefs because of our pyschological demand for meaning and God?!

The purpose of this thread is to draw up the criteria and requirements for the truth.

what is truth?

rationalmind: Will reply u tomorw. Need to sleep now as well. Goodnight.

goodnight sir.

peterphd: This Josh is brain dead.I have always said it.why should we believe you and not the allah worshippers? If you ever have kids don't take them for immunisation because ending one disease brings another.you're simple an I.diot.I know you're not even smart enough to feel s.tupid. Damn!

You are the foolish one if you think I don"t support science when its written clearly in my post. Maybe you didn't read it.

You go around insulting me and repeating the same statement and you expect to be engaged?