₦airaland Forum

It depends on the situation. I won't marry a man that won't be comfortable with my family. And my dad will behave himself or else, MUMMY will get him.

@georgecso


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Are those fire fighters I see in the pic?

hehehehe una say naija neva betta, abeg we get fire fighters o, Praise be to God, Alleluia.

who is the chruch? the pope and his cardinals?   i thought christians say that the church is the body of jesus? so now the authority of interpreting the bible lies in with the pope, cardinals and fathers eh? is it not the same church fathers that go about having sex with little children and stealing church funds. . . .? what makes them a better christian or whats makes you think they have better understanding of the bible than any other person out there? the truth is one and i just can't understand how christians claim that they posses the truth when they can not even agree on what the truth is. . . hubreality and debosky were agruing even on the thread where people were saying their condolence to the late pastor kumuyi's wife. . . .you guys don't even agree on anything even the nature of your god and you want any body to believe you guys. . .

Lol, no it is not the Pope and his Cardinals that make up the Church alone. It is the Baptised and confirmed Christians that make up the Church. Maybe I worded it wrongly originally but to make it clear, when I say it is the Church that has the authority to interpret the Scriptures, I mean that me as a lay person does not have the authority to interpret, even a regular doesn't have the authority to put his own interpretations. The interpretation is left for the magisterium. The magisterium is like the Supreme Court Justices of the U.S. their job is to interpret not rewrite but to interpret. The Pope will be like the President I guess.
Haha no they are not the same ones that go about having sex, and it is a shame that the 98% of good clergy out there are being affected by the 2% of those that couldn't stay true to their vows. It is also shameful that the mass population of the world would single out a set of people to condemn and attribute to them such evil when the majority doesn't lie with them. Studies already show that other sects actually have a higher % of sexual abuse within them both religious and not.
But I as a Catholic accept the bad as the good, as Christ already told us there would be those that are bad and those that are good. It is also illogical for people to say that The Church engages in such acts, when that would be equivalent to them saying that ALL fathers are molesters and rapists just because some of them do so to their children or others. Anyway, whatever with that, it isn't my point.

They are not a better christian, there is no such thing as a better christian, and it is not the merit of the christian that gets them to interpret the Bible infallibly, it is the promise of Christ "that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" in reference to his Church, meaning that no matter what happens and believe me all will happen, the Church will continue to stand and because of Christ's promise "that the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth" in reference to his Church, that the Church can infallibly interpret the scriptures. WHy is it that it rests with the magisterium? Because not just anyone can walk up from the street and claim to be inspired by the Holy Spirit to infallibly interpret scripture. All decisions centering on faith and morals by the Church are guided by the Holy Spirit, it however doesn't mean that those who interpret scripture are free from error in their personal behavioral practices. It just means that they cannot teach you wrong. And they can do this because of the unbroken succession from the apostles and as shown in the Bible that no one was sent to preach without hands being laid on them by the apostles.

I am glad you agree that the truth is one, and the truth will lie somewhere. Unfortunately along with the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church, there lies several other churches by men. Unfortunately those who follow those churches do not see that the devil is happy that they are away from God's Church.
A Catholic does not expect you to lump us along with the Protestant Christians, for they do not hold the truth and it is very clear as they cannot agree on anything, even if you do not believe in God, it is clear to see that the truth of Christianity does not lie with the various protestant churches as they all disagree with each other. I as a Catholic definitely do not expect you to believe me, but I do expect you to believe God, and to believe that while he has his truth on earth there are those who perpetrate as truth.
I also do not expect you to believe all christians, but I do expect you to discern for yourself the truth and to do so logically and fairly. I was a protestant and I didn't really care for God not did I really care for the Catholic Church, but when I started taking my life seriously, I did research, and it was really difficult for me because there was too many information out there and most of them contradicted themselves, but there was a place where no matter where I went, on their websites and in person, the story is always the same, and that was in the Catholic Church. I knew truth lay somewhere, so I pursued it, I also know truth uses logic and that it won't chuck it up to you being stupid if you do not understand or do not agree, I also knew that truth wouldn't contradict itself, and so it took me many years to actually understand and finally it clicked. I studied Jewish history, studied christian history, and was adamant about understanding the Bible as it is. I finally gave in that God is just who He is, and that the Catholic Church is His Church, and it made sense. What didn't make sense before finally made sense, hmmm.

Actually writing this, I thought of C.S. Lewis and G.K. Chesterton, try reading their books and life story just for fun.

t seems you are blinded by the catholic church. . .do you know how many people the catholic church killed just because they wanted to exert power and keep the church on top of things?

You know I keep hearing about that, and yet I have not met a credible historian who would agree with you, maybe you can introduce me to one. Thanks.

do you know about catholic practices like indulgence, witch brunings etc that were highly propagated by the catholic church?

oh mazaje, you do the same things the prots do, do you know what the indulgence is? Indulgences did not go away, but why aren't they "being sold" like before? hmm I wonder, maybe it's because indulgences aren't evil. Do you do know what an indulgence is or are you just repeating the same thing you read from an anti-catholic and bcus there wasn't a catholic who could give a rebuttal to their claim you assumed it is true. Please explain to me your understanding of what indulgences are. I expect a protestant to have a problem with it, but not an atheist.

Witch burnings?
hmm are you completely sure that it was done by the Catholic church?
Read the below link and tell me what you got from it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt

read about the catholic church and all the evil that they have done to humanity. . .osama bin laden has not terroroized people like some of the catholic popes did before.

haha you read KunleOshobs post and took his words. Back it up pls.

if not for martin luther you wouldn't have a copy of the bible in your house to read. . . .

lolol, oh mazaje, ur funny, so u've been paying attention to the protestants posts eh, good for you. Unfortunately it wasn't because of Martin Luther that I have the Bible in my home. Infact even after Martin Luther, most christians didn't have Bibles in their homes, Protestants and Catholics alike. So it wasn't because the Church told people not to buy the Bible, it is because people couldn't afford the Bible. Those who could, owned the Bible, and it wasn't until the 1900s that people started owning Bibles in their own homes.
Mazaje if you are going to pick up anything from them at least make sure that it is the truth.

i don't even know what to say here but all i can say is this, lets assume that i believe in the stories of the bible the question now is if god really loved humans why didn't he send jesus during the time of noah? why destroy the whole world, why destroy people you love, why send a drunkard to preach to them why not send yourself. . . .?

I can honestly say I do not know, because I am not in his head, and I am not so great that I can understand everything he does. But I will say this, it was a part of his plan and it was leading up to what he initially wants. He gave many prophecies about the coming messiah, he didn't give it all at once. Maybe it's because he knew they wouldn't accept him or believe him.
You also stated this question based on the assumption that love means you won't deliver justice to those who act wrongly. It's like saying a parent shouldn't discipline their child because they love them. When infact it is because of love that they do. So whatever reason God saw it fit to destory them, he did, not out of hatred, but out of love. Why can't a drunkard preach to them?

as for pastors that preach prosperity they still use the bible to buttress their points, they read verse where the biblegod says that they shall be the head and not the tail, they read verse where the bible god says he will bless his people and multiply their riches, they read verses where the bible god promises his people to take all their disesease and pour it on their enemies, they read verses where the bible god says that he will richly bless those that abide to his words and make them never lack. . . prosperity gospel pastors get all what they are teaching from the bible so what are you saying?.

That is my point, they do not have the authority. That is what arises when people assume authority that was never given to them.

do you think the writers of the bible were inspired? why did they write so many things that were wrong? they predicted so many things that were wrong. . . they said that things will happen that never happened. what kind of inspiration is that? where did they get it from?. . . .

Yes I do believe that they were inspired and till date I haven't come across anything of theirs in the Bible that was wrong. I also have never come across a prediction of theirs that was wrong. Do you mind enlightening me?

did your church fathers tell you that the pope is the prime minister of the biblegod or did the writers of the bible tell you that? where is the kingdom of the biblegod if i may ask? when was that kingdom established? who established it. . . .and is that kingdom any different than the world?

Both the Church Fathers and the Bible tells of that. As in any Kingdom especially David's Kingdom that Jesus is King of, the King gave to his prime minister his ring, and that ring is what gives the prime minister the Keys to the Kingdom, meaning the prime minister can bind and loose. We see these examples in the OT.
In the book of Esther the Prime minister gives the decree that is binding, that even the King cannot overturn. Aman, the Prime Minister decrees that on a certain date the Jews would be killed. Esther finally did her thing as a woman, and her cousin Mordecai was now appointed Prime Minister over the Kingdom and in so giving him the Keys to the Kingdom, and Mordecai was able to give the decree that all Jews should fight for their lives. Notice that even after the death of Aman and appointment of Mordecai, the decree made by Aman could not be overturned not even by the King himself (read the story of Esther for this)

Now we go to the book of Isaiah, In Isaiah 22:20-22 we see God telling Shebna, master of the Palace, notice that Shebna isn't the King, but a master of the Palace, the Prime Minister, and tells shebna that he will give Shebna's robe, sash, and authority to Eliakin, and then tells Shebna that Eliakin will be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of judah, notice he said father. Pope is actually the english variation of Papa which means father in latin or italian, so when they ask is Pope in the Bible, it actually really is. Anyway, back to the point, God then goes on to say he will place the key to the House of David (kingdom) on Eliakin's shoulder, an whenhe opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open.
Now some people will say only Jesus can shut and open, but that makes no sense because the key is given to a prime minister and not a king, and Jesus is a King in his own right.

God's Kingdom is not of this world, and therefore cannot be placed here, and because I haven't been there, I cannot give you a location, however becuse it is eternal it has no fixed location, location is bound to time and space, and God's kingdom isn't. God's kingdom has exists in eternity and isn't bound to time.
Yes the kingdom is different from the world. I would assume since it is not of the world.

what about books that were considered scripture by early christians that didn't make it into the final cannon?

No book was considered scripture prior to the definition of the canon, it is the definition of the canon that attributes the title scripture to books. They were moral readings, and just that. The only other books that were actual scripture were those in the OT, and they all exist in the Original Canon, the Vulgate, the Catholic Bible.

@ Pastor AIO
I will return to yours.

@ KunleOshob
The fullness of the christian truth is knowing what the Bible says truly and fully and interpreting all passages in light of the other passages. Understanding the exegesis of what Christ and his apostles convey. It is really too long to post here. It is understanding who God is, why he created us, why after adam and eve sinned, he didn't wipe out humanity and started all over again, why he chose abram, why he changed his name and why he chose jacob and why he changed his name. why he chose moses, why he permitted certain things to happen, why he decided to redeem the world, why he decided to redeem the world through a messiah, why did the messiah have to be born of a woman, why didn't he just appear in human form, what is the purpose of his birth from a woman and why does the woman have to be a virgin when she conceives him, why mary, why did the woman have to marry, what is the purpose of the man she married, why did he have to have 12 disciples, why not 11 or 20, why did they all have to be men or why were they men. why did he have to die by crucifixion, why couldn't he have just been stoned to death, why couldn't his legs have been broken, after all he had power to heal his legs when he resurrected. why did he start his ministry at the prompting of the woman, why does he call his mother woman at beginning of his ministry, why does he call her woman at the foot of the cross, after all he did go on to say to the disciple that the woman was now his mother, why didn't he just call her mother and then give her away, why did he have to give her away, didn't she have other children that could have taken care of her? why give her away?
why does he call himself the son of man, what does the son of man mean? why does he institute the eucharist or holy communion? why did he have to be betrayed, everyone already knew his whereabouts and they had chances to catch him and take him to trial, why didn't they do it at that point. why does he take his last breath at 3pm, what is the significance of that 3pm. why does he have to carry the cross? why does he go through the crucifixion during the feast of the passover? why does he give holy communion in the form of bread and wine? why do we have to do it in remembrance of him? why forgiveness? and so many more questions are answered by the Catholic church.

Does it also iclude worshiping mary

nope, it includes honouring God's mother and honouring his saints, after all the Bible does instruct us to do so, and we see it too many times in the Bible. And mostly Mary tells us that all generations will call her blessed. You can't ust skip through passages in the Bible and hold some as more important than the other, they are all equally infallible.

Also was the full christianity being practised by the catholic church responsible for all the evil the catholic church authorixed in the middle ages?

Yes it was being practiced by the Church, and the Church teaches the fullness of truth. Now there are members of the Church that do not practice the fullness of the truth. However just because people do not always practice what they preach does not mean that they do not preach the truth.
The church's teaches the truth and it is up to its members to practice them.
If we are to go by your reasoning, then no one earth has the fullness of truth, and Christ would not leave us without us knowing the truth, and mostly it would mean that Christ failed when he said he will send us the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth.
Unless you Kunle are trying to say that you are perfect.
Infact it would mean that the apostles also didn't know the fullness of the truth, and that infact would cast doubt on the New Testament writings. No where does it state that the requirement for the true church would be that all the members would be sinless or perfect. Even those who walked with Christ weren't. Even the one he gave the Keys to Kingdom of Heaven denied him 3 times. Go figure. If the Bible states that the members of the Church would be sinless, pls show me. The Church is sinless because the Church is the body of Christ, but the members are not.

Also pls make sure that you do some more research on the history of the Catholic Church as there are hardly any credible historians who would claim that the atrocious acts that were taught as being fashioned by the Church were really by the Church. Just because it is popularly known does not make it true.

Let it be noted, that the Catholic Church has never taught error and neither has she practiced error, but her members have. There has never been a Pope that sits on the chair pf Peter (remember the chair of moses from the other discussion?) that has ever issued a decree ex-cathedra, that is from the Chair of Peter binding upon all christians as a belief, that is atrocious.

If there ever has been let someone cite a source for it. Let me remind you that you will have to post that the Pope called for it ex-cathedra, not just that he stated it, but that he called for it ex-cathedra.

Don't kid yourself. You're not in Pilgrim's league.
For all her failings, Pilgrim was a very, very good debater. You on the other hand are an idiot.

You post nothing of substance - just a load of claptrap and then you burble "I'm right. I've won".

The only place you are superior to anyone is in your arrogance and self-conceit.

maybe you're the one admitting that i'm right and i've won, because i've never done that.
My arrogance, ha you make me laugh. What truth has become arrogance for u? SO when ppl don't know what they're talking about it becomes humility, but when they do it becomes arrogance? Ha what logic, no wonder the atheists on this board take you guys for a spin all the time. None of you can hold water with your argument.

You don't hear - let alone understand. You are deaf.

ok sure, now answer the questions. or abi u've forgotten about them? do u need me to remind u?

And with that sweeping statement you wipeout 1900 years of Catholic atrocity. No Lady. The Catholic church caused more damage to the reputation of Christianity than Bin Laden could ever cause to the Muslim faith even if he lived to be 1000 years old.

1900 of catholic atrocities that were not really catholic atrocities. can u name me one atrocious thing that was pronounced from the chair of peter?
no u guys can't. u guys make claims that haven't been backed up. back up your assertions from credible sites. go and get with the modern historians and they will let u know that truly the catholic church wasn't the problem, but actually the solution.
scientists such as A.C. Crombie, David Lindbergh, Edward Grant and co will attest that the Church built western science, pls don't delude yourself anymore, actually go and do some research.
I am not saying that the members of the Catholic church has never done wrong, but the Church itself has never done wrong.

Protestantism didn't sully the reputation of Christianity. If anything, it started dragging it out of the gutter once Martin Luther nailed his note to the door.
Why do you think people turned to Protestantism? They weren't forcibly converted as in Catholism, they converted by choice. Could it be because they were sick and tired of the lies and corruption of the Catholic church? Lies that vermin like you and your ilk still propogate?

Why are you angry that someone is finally making you guys accountable for what you say?
Plain and simple, non-christians can say how confused christians are because the lot of you quote bible passages and misinterpret it and all your pastors contradict each other. abi no be so? you cannot hold down a logical debate, truly indeed logic has become relative. ppl are beginning to define for themselves what logic is.

There isn't a catholic that was converted by force. Nope it never happened, if it did, then sir you will have to use credible sources to back up your claims, check with historians and see if they'll agree with you.

Look simply opening your mouth and saying things does not make it true. Citing credible historians and statistics will give your argument much weight. But I can guarantee you won't find one credible source. Try it.

[quote author=rich_john link=topic=235021.msg3769647#msg3769647 date=1240485679]lady you are failing woefullyO! This is half % (not even up to one) there is no use arguing with you, the harm the RCC has done on earth is ALMOST IRREVERSIBLE man has lost any idea about what God really said and Who He really is no thanks to the RCC. you paganistic church has EDITED HISTORY, CREATED MYTHICAL PEOPLE (Christopher Columbus and father patrick to name a few) pls I said b4 dont let me paste links here, your attrocities and not hidden but its relatively difficult to observe, like I said there's are some things some people cant afford to know I beg dont push me to the wall to expose you, just keep your hellish church, to yourself I repeat!

Oga you never explain the judas chair , iron virgin mary, torture rooms and senseless burnings you did over the years or have you forgotten St Bartholomew's day Massacre?[/quote]Oh but see I want u to paste links, that is what I've been asking for, post your sources to your claim. Prove to us that your assertions come from credible sources.
Like I said above, simply making assertions doens't make it true.

I can shout that the sky is no longer up for as long as I want, but it doesn't make it true.
Back up your claims sir.
Now when will u guys start answering questions, back up your beliefs from the Bible.

Judas' chair? Now I know you're not even going to any credible site
Iron virgin Mary? ha this is laughable
torture rooms?
burnings?

hmm cite your sources sir.

uplawal:
thanks for making her know shes always wrong until she learn how to talk cos women are supposed to come down for men in most cases except ur life is in danger, cos most of this men shes rude to are family men and shes making men feel bad towards women, pls let her know women are not suppose to be wagging their tongue according to st paul, a good xtian don't behave the way she does.

Come down for men, last I checked men and women were created equally. We all have our roles, but one isn't better than the other.
What do u want from me "YESSA MASSA"
HA KEEP DREAMING.

YOU ARE NOT EVEN WORTH ANYONE REPLYING TO. NOW I KNOW YOU ARE TRULY A MUSLIM. IS THIS OLABOWALE?

banom:
If Devil should humble himself and go to God and ask him for forgiveness, will GOd forgive him ?

angels do not get forgiveness

temmytanny:
i dont think there is any but people tell me its dangerous and i think some bible verses should be of help

so bcus ppl say it's dangerous, it means it must be?

if the bible were the direct words of an omnipotent god then he would inspire the translators of the bible in the same manner that he would inspire the original writers?

mazaje, he did exactly just that. Unfortunately people think that they themselves should be the interpreters. Not everyone should interpret the Bible. That's why the Lord left his Church on earth to be the guiding light. The authority for interpreting the Bible lies in the Church, the members of the Church cannot apply their own personal opinions. The reason u have ppl misinterpreting the Bible is because they are not supposed to be interpreting it in the first place. That's why there are divisions in Christianity. They don't trust God to appoint people to interpret the Bible infallibly. If God appointed and inspired men to write the Bible, doesn't it make sense that he will appoint and inspire men to interpret the Bible?

Just like the U.S. Constitution cannot be interpreted by the common man, but by appointed and seasoned lawyers/jusges: the Supreme Court Justice; the Bible cannot be interpreted by any random person who picks it up.

Have you noticed how all the protestants put their own interpretation on it and they all claim to be telling the truth, but they're truth differs?
Mazaje, does truth have different stories? Or is truth just one? How would you describe truth?
Seriously think about all the discussions you have read on nairaland, have you noticed that they all interpret the same passages differently and they all claim that their interpretations are the truth? Doesn't that tell one something? These people are not supposed to be interpreting the Bible.

i say this because there are a lot of mistranslations, mistakes,and editing that have happened to make the english bible different in some places and passages from the original text

and it shouldn't be so, but because man hates authority and because man thinks he's perfect, he goes and does whatever and changes the Word to fit what he thinks is right. Rather than trying to understand the scripture he clings to, he vows to make the scriptures change and pass it off as saying he is interpreting the scriptures properly.

The Bible was unchanged for 1500 years, there was no trouble like this. The only trouble arose from those who did not want to believe in the Bible. That is something different, but for ppl who say they do believe in the Bible, but refuse to accept books that were defined as scripture and were never challenged for 1500 yrs, that baffles me. They refuse to accept the authority of the people who wrote and defined the scripture that they would die for. After Martin Luther changed the Bible what happened? Different denominations sprang up. Even those that agreed with Luther still differed with him, and when they refused to accept what he said, guess what they did? They went ahead and watered down the Bible again, they chose what they wanted to believe and continued, and that has been the pattern since. That's why amongst them, you will see one who doesn't agree with the teachings of a pastor and then jump to the other pastor's church, and then when that pastor says something they don't like, they will leave there and go to another one's church, and the cycle continues. Doesn't that say that they don't want to hear what God wants to say, but that they want to hear what they want to hear?

They pick what they want from the Bible and run with it, and contradict themselves all the time, It's funny some of the ppl on NL have interpreted the same verse in different ways. The verse that they interpreted last year will have a different interpretation from them again this year and they will swear on their ancestors' grave that they are telling the truth. They swore that last year too.

It makes no sense.

you would think that an omnipotent being would have done it in a similar to the way he presented the ten commandments, by calling one of his prophets (why havent we had any of them in the past 2000 years?)

Because God himself came down and relayed the last message. All the other prophets testified to his coming. The whole point of him coming was to show humanity the actual way to go. That's why what we thought was up was actually really down and what we thought was left was actually really right. What we think is wisdom is actually foolishness. Adam and Eve in Genesis were told by the devil that if they ate of the fruit of the tree they would gain wisdom like the gods, but infact they already had that wisdom and didn't know it. So while they thought they were getting life and wisdom, they were really getting death and foolishness, and that's the key to understanding everything from then on in the Bible. That explains why we needed to have saviour in the first place, why God had to choose a people to set his plan in mothion. So God realising that man cannot remove sins from the world on his own merit, he fashioned himself as a man to do so. That is why Jesus is God, because no man born of a woman and man can take on all the sins (hatred, greed, lust, murder, pride, sloth, etc) on himself, no man can do so, The only one with the perfect love to be able to carry on those sins without succumbing to hate those who put those sins on him, is God, and that's why God had to do it. So God needed to show to us how to get back to the way he initially created us. So he taught us life principles, principles that if applied with love and fully, love for God and love for our fellow man, will defeat any war, any disease, any poverty that the devil can insert to the world. If people started loving their enemies and started exercising patience, and stopped looking for revenge we would hardly have any killings, steakings and so on. If people started exercising self-control we would hardly have aborted babies, children abandoned by patience, no rape and so on. If people starte accepting responsibilities for their actions we would hardly need taxes jo. But people don't. And that is the message of Christ. Life principles, even when we don't sometimes understand them if practiced fully and with love eradicates the world's problems. But for him to do so, he ahd to turn things upside down. The devil in the garden turned things upside down and made us think that right was left, and all. So God turned it around, and made left left and right right. But we are so far gone that what we think left is is not what Christ tells us left is. So that leads us to why he had to suffer and die. For example. A lot of these pastors give the prosperity preaching, and tell that suffering isn't the way to go, but Christ preaches suffering and poverty as the way to get to heaven, now don't mistake poverty to mean that those who are in poverty in the world today are all going to heaven, no that is not the poverty he preached about. Poverty means not attaching yourself to the things of this world, you have just what you need, but are still willing to give it to another who doesn't Poverty means not being attached to mercedes benz even if u have one, it means if that benz were to go away and if u were to loose all ur money, u wouldn't be hurt, u wouldn't think ur life is over, u would still find life and beauty in everything u see, I hope I was clear in explaining poverty. Christ and his apostles preached crucifixion, it doesn't mean u have to go hang urself on the cross o, lol. They preached suffering, suffering as in don't be attached to things in this world that pass away. It means instead of trying to fight those who hurt u accept their hurt and love them back for it, remember the principle of love ur enemies. It means accepting all the hurts that this world would throw at u because they do not understand u, accept all the insults that even those who claim to be true believers would throw at u, accept it all and use it for God's glory. So while we look at suffering as something to detest, it isn't, because as the devil showed us that throw lack of self-control, through hatred, through pride and all vices we have life. God shows us that it is through humility, through patience, through love, that we have life.
So you may see someone on the street or you may listen to someone speak about God and you may see them embrace the simple life, the solitary life, the sacrificial life, do not for one second think that they are in suffering as u would define suffering, they are truly at peace. You may call them foolish or deluded, but at the end of the day, they are the ones with the angels at their side.
The easy road leads to destruction, the hard road leads to life. What is up is really down, what is down is really up.
Unfortunately most pastors don't preach it, and from their preaching they have led many souls to destruction.

There is no need for a prophet, his plan has been fulfilled. I hope you saw your answer in my dissertation, lol. Sorry for the dissertation btw.

why not just have one scribe writing, writing, writing, since god was essentially just dictating?

oh mazaje, God never dictated, he doesn't dictate, he inspired, do u know what it means for someone to be inspired? I don't mean for someone to be an inspiration, no i mean for someone to be inspired.

why a council voting on what is to be included?

Because God has an established kingdom, and like any King, he will have his court members, and yes his prime minister the Pope. That's another discussion for later.

was it always a unanimous vote?

It was a unanimous vote on which books were to be defined as scripture

i don't believe in jesus but lets assume for the sake of this discussion that i do, do i need to pray to him to know that he lives? there are so many christians that have asked and nothing has been giving to them, so many have seek and found nothing. . .

Not many who tell us that they are the Lord's are actually the Lord's. He did tell us that many will call him Lord but they did nothing of and for the Lord.
There are also many whose prayers have been answered, what about them? You will hardly believe them because you do not want to believe. It is easier to point out that there are those whose prayers haven't been answered, and it is easier for you to do a survey or to carry out some experiment on it, however have u also looked at the other side? Have you also checked for those whose prayers have been answered and have you also surveyed them or done some form of experiment for them? Or have you made up your mind that they will be deluded, even those who you would have adored as philosophers and professors and scientists of the greates caliber, did they all of a sudden become deluded.
Have u been fair at all, or have u sought to pick out what u want, and discarded the other side of the story?

there are also so many christians that have asked and had everything given to them, so many have sought and have found. But here's the thing mazaje, rather than being fair, u have attributed delusion to everyone that comes and says their prayers have been answered. Is that fairness at all?

A lot of people pray without believing, most are doing it to test and see if God will actually answer their prayers. A lot of them have heard what God has done in someone else's life, and decide to ask God too. They don't necessarily do it, because they believe, they do it because they're testing God. God isn't stupid he isn't deluded and isn't foolish, he knows when someone is trying to test him, and he will leave them be to their delusions.
A lot also pray without faith, they do it jsut because someone says do it.
A lot also loose patience, we don't always get what we want at the time we want it. And for that people curse God. Instead of trusting that he will give us what we need at the right time, we say he isn't real because he didn't reply then. When you loose faith and patience, God will loose you too.
Most of the time we ask for what isn't good for us. For example, a lot of women pray for a husband, rather than praying for God to send them their own husband or the right husband, they pray for God to send them the particular husband they have their eyes set on. That person may not be the right person for them. So when they don't get that one they say God didn't answer their prayers.

ALSO WE EXPECT GOD TO DO FOR US, BUT WE ARE UNWILLING TO DO FOR GOD. WE ENTER INTO A COVENANT WITH GOD, AND FOR HIM TO FULFILL HIS PROMISES WE ALSO HAVE TO FULFILL OUR PROMISES. We want God to deliver us from alcoholism yet we're not willing to put the bottle down or stay away from bars.

you have not really been reading your bible because there was a time in the bible when the biblegod wanted to kill some people for trivial reasons and moses adviced him to reconsider because it wasn't a good thing to do and he reconsidered and spared their lives. . .

Moses never asked God to reconsider because it wasn't a good thing. Moses asked God to reconsider because of mercy and love. Moses interceeded on behalf of those people. Those who've found favor with God can beseech God on our behalf. Abraham too interceeded for sodom and gomorah.
God saved the good people and destroyed the city.

how did the biblegod reveal himself to all of creation? a perfect god that wants to reveal himself to humans would certainly not leave fallible humans to deliver an endless plethora of confused and contradictory messages, it sounds more sensible that a god that wants people to het to know him would deliver the message himself, directly, to each and every one of us, and with such clarity as the most brilliant being in the universe could accomplish. people all over the world would all hear him out and shout. so obvious and well-demonstrated would his message be. it would be spoken to everybody in exactly those terms we would all understand and we would all agree on what that message was. even if we rejected it, we would all at least admit to each other, "yes, that's what this god fellow told me." but that is not the case. . . . .

How would God have us understand him if he doesn't work through man. If he doesn't use what we know what we understand, how would we understand him. Man can be fallible, but man can also speak the truth. If a murderer were to say that murder is wrong, does the fact that he's a murderer make his statement any less true?

Because God is not about selfishness. He is about community. He himself is a community, Father, Son, Holy Ghost and to be like him we have to be in a community. If God were to appear to everyone and say ok this is what it is, we wouldn't have the need to commune together and rely on each other, we would all do our own thing, and that is called selfishness.
But see God himself did come down and told us what to do and he did it clear as day, but guess what man insulted him, crucified him. As long as man doesn't want to accept God, as long as man doesn't want to accept truth, it doesn't matter if God were to come down from heaven right now. If you mazaje do not want to accept God, even if he were to show up to your room and tell you clear as day that he is God, you won't accept him. Infact you would check yourself into a hospital to make sure you are not running mad. If you won't accept that those who've spoken to God or heard from him are sane, you won't accept that you are sane if God were to appear to you.

confusion you call it eh? so because i do not not come to jesus and share the christian world view, therefore, i must be a wicked liar, i must be so deluded by sin that I am all but clinically insane

Nope it just means you are where you are. No two person is the same, our fingerprints are unique to us and so is our faith. Just because u do not believe right now, doesn't mean u are insane. If that's the case I too must have been insane, and countless others must have been insane.

Dude (Reply, Click ONCE) not four times mehn.

The prison isn't a literal prison as in bondage. No it is a place where these people are kept until they go through a cleansing from their attachment to original sin. St. Peter describes it as a Prison because in it there isn't always fun, not that they can physically feel pain, but that the pain comes because they will have such a longing for God that it pains them that they have sinned even once against God, and they will see God but not be able to get to him.

It's kinda like a fat kid who sees the big juicy fat cake but he can't get to it, and he thinks he's going to die for not getting that cake. It is that longing to be with God, and they get cleansed from their attachment to sin. WHy? Because nothing unclean can enter heaven.
Well purgatory isn't a place of torture or punishment, it is a place of cleansing. However it will feel like torture, imagine being able to see God and not get to him, that's all the torture there is.

Those sodomites, I can't tell u where they go as I cannot pronounce judgement on people, only God can do that. If he felt some of them were to go to hell, so be it, to purgatory to be cleansed then so be it

OLAADEGBU:
None of us have the truth in ourselves, except we receive the Personality who is the Truth.  The Truth is not a concept that we struggle to understand and interprete, the Truth is a Person who says "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life", He also said in another place that "Ye shall know the Truth and the Truth will make you free" and "If the Son shall make you free you shall be free indeed" John 1:17 says "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ."  And to crown it up Jesus declared in John 4:24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth."  Do you know see the Personality who is the Truth and not a concept?  Do you have the Truth personally dwelling on the inside of you?  Do you have the Truth living inside your heart? or is it the RCC dogma and doctrines of men that you are still grappling with? 

granted the Truth is Jesus meaning that Jesus spoke only one truth, so which one of you hold the one truth that Jesus spoke of. Because here's what I don't understand. You guys use his own words to defend your contradicting beliefs. You guys use his own words and interpret those same words and you all come to different conclusions. So can you please explain how it is you all come to different conclusions to those words. I mean truth is truth and it isn't 2, 3, or 4 ways. It is one way. So which one of you holds the truth because none of u ever claim to be wrong, the other person is always wrong, so who is wrong?

I have the truth, infact I have him dwelling within me as he insisted that I do, I have his flesh and his blood inside me as he insisted that we have his flesh and his blood. I am grappling with the doctrines of Christ that he gave to men, and the authority he gave to men.

I still don't understand how you guys have a problem with following "men" when "men" wrote and put together the Bible that you swear by. Doesn't that mean that you all follow "men"
What I certainly do not understand is how you guys scream against the very Church who wrote and put together the Book you all would die for.

Can u explain that to me?

Also explain to me who Christ gave authority to, did he give authority to men to cast out demons, to forgive sins, to preach or did he give that authority to the Bible. I need you to explain to me how the Bible got its authority

I am not trying to dog y'all, I just want to understand y'all, and y'all are not making a lick of sense.

babs there isn't a 3 days 3 nights calculation

Jesus resurrected on the third day. All the gospels attest to that. Stop reading what isn't there.

Also on Jonah, those days were counted as the jews counted the days and not as we count the days today, making it on the third day as we count the days.

Also the story of Ishtar is untrue as it contradicts several stories about Ishtar. You guys will really have to come up with one solid story about Ishtar in order for your point to carry weight. Because according to this Tammuz wasn't the son of Ishtar, he was Ishtar's lover. Dumuzi was the lover of Ishtar.
Ishtar also wasn't a moon goddess, she was the goddess of love, war, and sex

So pls get your stories straight first.

This is why I always ask for sources when ppl make claims, they go to sources that lack credibility and produce the wrong information, and some people on this forum are too foolish to do research for themselves from credible sources and they end up believing and spreading falsehoods.

Oh KunleOshob

You mentioned that Catholics are misled to believing that pentecostals or protestants are not christians. Just wanted to correct you there. We aren't misled into thinking so. We acknowledge them as christians, we just know that they only have partial truth of the christian faith.

and mostly NOT EVERYONE IS MEANT TO BE MARRIED.

OLAADEGBU:
I don't only quote from Roman Catholics but I also quote from atheists as you may see in the Greatest atheists thread. I also believe that some Catholics who are still in the organisation who do not follow the instructions of the Vatican dogmatically but have faith in Christ alone are saved and in due time will see the light of the day and come out from among them, just as others are getting disillusioned and joining Islam or becoming atheists, some are coming into the saving knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ by faith alone in what Jesus has done and only in His name.

Into the truth of contradicting truth? Really I didn't know truth contradicted itself, and its own scripture.

And in contradicting I mean, how you all fight each other on the who has the true interpretation or do u not do that? I've seen it with you guys here on NL, the same lot of u that bound together to attack the Catholic faith, also disagree with each other and you all are hell bent on claiming that you have the truth. So which one of you has the truth again? Pls remind me.

uplawal:
why not take a look at john 20 17-22 when JESUS breath on his disciples and said receive the holy spirit and he was not gone then , and he said he would not send HIM until hes gone to pray to GOD to send him, so what he was refering to was a paraclete in HUMAN form.

HIM does not always refer to a physical form. Even dead people are still referred to as HIM, it doesn't mean you are referencing their corpse now does it.
Also God uses our own language to convey things to us, how are we supposed to understand HIM (God) if he doesn't

Also Jesus gives us a description of this HIM
16 And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever. 17 The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you

HE is not to be seen. Humans are seen, muhammad was seen.

So are you back to being a muslim now?

the structure and function of human consciousness allowed for no survival of human consciousness of bodily death. I say this because the proponents of heaven and hell, begin to talk about heaven or hell which are at the core of christianity and islam,they must first overcome the arguments as to the extreme unlikelihood of survival after death in the first place. we know that a child's consciousness increases with time, so will a 5 year old boy who died in this world wake up as an adult in heaven? will a child who was born with mental illness and lost consciousness of his environment suddenly become conscious when he dies? i watch a documentary on the discovery world where a guy had an accident when he was 7 and became brain dead till he died at the age of 32, will he suddenly become aware of his environments in either heaven or hell? as i aforementioned the structure and function of the human consciousness does not allow for survival of human consciousness after bodily death those that keep talking about heaven and hell are yet to prove to us beyond reasonable doubt that there is a part of human consciousness that survives bodily death. . . . .all we are left with are different conjectures, myths, false assumptions and lies. . . . . .

You ask a question based on the assumption that christianity believes the human consciousness will continue or that a person is still human after death. Make sure that this a christian belief first. Humanity is matter, after death the soul is no longer confined to matter, and therefore not human. So how can a not human continue to have human consciousness?
You made an argument that the human structure does not allow for human consciousness. One you didn't provide us with more evidence of this, I am not saying that it isn't true, I am only saying try to back up statements.
If there ever was an experiment carried out to prove your assertion, and if that experiment was to prove that there isn't an existence of after life, that experiment failed to realise that it is based soley on matter and not on spiritual forms. Did this experiment take into consideration spiritual forms. You cannot use matter to experiment and explain things that are not matter.

also about the 5 yr old boy who dies i will research more on that and get back to you

uplawal:
God is the only merciful except him no other person on earth is merciful, am not arguing with u based on this topic but just on ur unladylike and unchristlike ways shogbo? u know that i will be the last to be hurt by u,why should i? maybe others sha that cannot face u.oh i remembered how PILGRIM 1 lashed u with koboko on previous topics, oh shes so sweet in replying i missed her, kudos to her jare.and who wants to know if u wont stop or will never get tired?keep that to urself okay nobody sees u here

So people cannot beg others for mercy? I am trying to see you logic here.
You mean Pilgrim1 that couldn't keep her points straight sure.
Others sha cannot face me, what?
Since when did NL become a group for gangstas, who's trying to show power here? Are you alright?

Nobody sees me here?
and yet you see me enough to reply to my post? i guess you're nobody

@ olaadegbu

and you still haven't learned to read posts well. read my posts this time around pls. and see that i mentioned that there are christians who truly understand their fath and there are those who truly do not. basically there are those who are christians by name only. see that i said what you said. learn to read sir, pls.

Huxley

I agree with your post, however christianity doesn't only exist in the U.S. culture play a vital role in marriage, so going off of the U.S. alone honey you are bound to find flaws in the experiment.

But just to note. Divorce doesn't exist in the Catholic church. So for the survey to say that there are 21% of catholic divorces is misleading and therefore casts doubts on the survey itself.

99 percent of the athiest here were former christians and that is the only religion they understand. they are only showing how irrational it is to accept the beliefs they were forced to believe since when they were kids. . . . .

forced to believe?
hmm what say u about atheists who become christians were they forced then? or did they loose rationality? were they sane one minute and insane the other?
did it ever occur to you that faith is rational, and that your disdain of faith is irrational?

no seriously i am asking questions, not to come at u the wrong way but to dialogue. so try and answer in a respectful manner.

There is no such thing as a rapture. It is unbiblical. It has been proven to be unbiblical. Leave ppl alone.

Here's why this won't work.

God is God, if God becomes answerable to man, then man will be God and God will be man. If God goes on man's terms, then God will be man and man will be God. Get it?

If a parent goes on the child's terms, then the parent is the child and the child is the parent. Get it?

@Olaadegbu, did you just quote a Catholic as your defense? *gasp*

ok atheists you can have a good laff at the fact that olaadegbu just quoted a catholic and developed his argument from a catholic's philosophy. so laff away.

dalaman:
I looked very well and I discovered that most of the things I used to believe in were not really in the bible. The discussions here on nairaland were really help full.

First of all I am a bit confused. Did you become an atheist or you just left the Catholic faith and became a member of a christian denomination?

Second. Did you ever consider that maybe you haven't encountered passages that do prove the Catholic belief?
Or that you may have misinterpreted something there? Because our interpretation of the Bible isn't fallible. People make the mistake of thinking that they interpret the Bible passages infallibly, and yet fight against man interpreting the Bible, I hope you see the irony in that.

Third, before I continue the dialogue with you, I want to express something to you, I am not trying to convert you, I am not trying to insult you, and I am certainly not trying to have an e-fight with you. So please don't be defensive, a lot of us come to this website already in defense mode, myself included, and I try not to.
So with that being said let me introduce myself. I am ~Lady~, I haven't encountered you here before, are you just a regular spectator or do you get into the sport?

Seun:
Such things only happen in movies, my brother.

oh my dear trust me it's not only in movies. And I'm not saying this because I know somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody's mother's sister's bestfriend's sister's aunty's uncle. I am saying this because this directly affects me, unfortunately it took the death of a person for the truth to be realised by the other.

@father ab

not all marriages are recognised by God. For example, a person who divorces and marries another is not considered married to the second partner by God. Because God doesn't recognise divorces. To him you are married to the first person.
Now if the marriage is annulled and the people involved marries it is recognised by God.

And for a marriage to be recognised, certain things have to be met.
for example Both partners have to give their consent. In this situation the woman did not give their consent. Your pastor reacted that way because he himself doesn't know what constitutes a marriage, and he was wrong for blaming the girl. What nonsense? The pastor was hiding his own flaws.

dalaman:
Nairaland was really instrumental for me in leaving my catholic faith, I use to hear arguments for and against Catholicism but my visits to the religion section really helped me to change, I was actually introduced to nairaland by a former Christians who told me that nairaland was instrumental in his conversion to atheism. The point is that I have learned a lot here from both Christians and atheist alike. Some of the arguments are really insightful and help full.

Do you mind sharing your reason for leaving your faith? Were you already borderline on leaving the faith and then nairaland sealed the deal for you?

I am confused here.

Are people relying on the OT when it suits them? Because generally the consensus amongst certain christians is that the OT laws were done with.

I'm not sure of that interpretation of the verse. There is nothing about official interpreters in the original greek. It says literally that the scribes and pharisees ( οἱ γραμματεῖς καὶ οἱ Φαρισαῖοι. -oi grammateis kai oi pharisaioi) sit (ikathisan) in moses' chair (kathedras).

Sitting in Moses' chair means one has the authority to interpret scripture and define law for the people. Sitting in Moses' chair gives them the authority to interpret the scriptures. That's why they have the authority to interpret the scriptures.

The reason that I'm raising this topic is that I believe that Jesus was himself a Pharisee (as were his followers and the early christians) and that his criticism of them was in fact self criticism. Like when we criticise nigeria and the nigerian way of doing things. It doesn't mean that we are ourselves distinct from Nigerians.

You'll have to map out the similarities between Jesus and the Pharisees.

I think we all have a grave misunderstanding of the system of that time. The Pharisees and the Sadducees all had their respective roles in the Jewish religion and they were supposed to stay within the constraints of their roles, but couldn't. Instead of realising that they each had their roles. The Pharisees for interpreting the law, and the sadducees for carrying out the law. They were to work together and not against each other. They couldn't comprehend that, call it elitism. But it's the human nature.

uplawal:
u see why people dnt reply to ur answer its cos its not valid and if they continue replying u its like talking to a lunatic cos u will never listen always arguying blindlly, dear nairalander continue ur ill ways am sure u wil be guarantied purgatory by paying for mass for forgiveness of ur sins,humm i pity u

DID THE JEWS BELIEVE IN SHEOL?
DID THE GREEKS BELIEVE IN HADES?

DUDE STOP TRAILING ME BEFORE I REPORT YOU, THIS ISN'T FUNNY!!!

uplawal:
u know already ure a disgrace to christiandom as u dont know how to relate to people,nobody can get converted through ur arrogant ways,u make fool of urself all the time,and make people ridicle christians with ur ill mannered ways, i wont join u in using abusive words like u do cos my faith doesnot permit such act and personally am not trained like that, am very sure u delight joy in calling Mary merciful when God is the only merciful, humm idolatory of the highest order,u dont av to be sorry for me cos i cant partake in idolatory with u, wake up , and am sure ure amongs those that set up altar at home for mary woshiping, continue okay. logical thinking girl indeed.

So people cannot be merciful?
You call it idolatry, I call it the fullness of the christian truth, I can back it up with the Bible and it makes sense. You however cannot.
Like Christ said not everyone who hears will understand. I hear I understand, you hear you don't.

Why would I want to relate to someone who comes to insult me, and then tell me he loves me, wth? Where have u ever heard that before. Because I refuse to give u a chance so now ur feelings are hurt, get ova urself. Call it arrogance, truth still stands, it will never waver, it is one way and not 33,000 ways.
Last I checked it is protestants that can't get their truth straight that give Christianity a bad name. When will u guys start agreeing on doctrine, does the Bible teach that baptism is salvific or does it teach that it is symbolic. You guys can't agree on that one, and you all base your own beliefs on the Bible so which is it? Is the Bible contradicting itself or are you guys contradicting the Bible with your own personal interpretations.
Like I said unless you want to have a respectful discussion with me with logic cease from relying to my posts.

@ rich_john
thanks for that, but I won't keep quiet. You guys say you have the truth, then prove it. Answer the questions.
My hellish church, funny enough, the Pharisees said the same thing about Jesus. I guess people who don't want to hear the truth attribute it to the devil. You can try but I won't keep silent, now the tables are turned and you guys can't answer a single question. Why are you afraid? Is it because you already know you don't know the truth?
You guys can point and blame and throw insults but can you defend your own faith with your own Bible? No ofcourse not.


HA THIS IS SERIOUS O, I MUST HAVE STRUCK A NERVE IN YOU GUYS, YOU'RE ALL RUNNING AROUND LIKE CHICKENS WITHOUT HEADS NOW EH!!!

[size=18pt][b]DEFEND YOUR FAITH, YOU ARE A BIBLE BELIEVING CHRISTIAN RIGHT? YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO THAT!!![/[/b]size]

eghosaobas:
Women wears are wrappers and skirts, not trouser. Since women started wearing trouser and find comfort in it,they are diplomtic and dragging it with men. Men that tie wrapper in niger delta do so cos its their traditional wear. Have you ever seen an hausa or yoruba man on wrapper? No cause its not their custom to do so.

Wrong in certain regions it is so, however in other parts of the world wrapper isn't even known, and skirts aren't just worn by women they are worn by men too and trousers aren't just worn by men they are worn by women also and those are their traditional wears.

I as a woman personally would only wear skirts, I still wear pants sometimes, but I am slowly making the transition, I do so because pants for women are not the traditional wears for my people. However you cannot tell a woman in the middle east or somewhere else that has women wearing pants traditionally that they aren't supposed to wear them. You also cannot tell men in places where their traditional wears are skirts to not wear them.

Just as women are not supposed to wear men's wears then men are not supposed to wear women's wears.

If wrappers are for women then those men shouldn't be wearing them. You can't have it both ways. choose one.

tudor:
So all i need do is sin like hell,go to pugatory and d messiah will cum preach to me and i'm saved, dat sounds lyk d best deal i've heard in years!

Wrong that isn't the doctrine of purgatory. Those who were preached to in prison were those who stayed in line with God. Those who believed in him and who followed him. God is the God of the universe, not of the Israelites alone, so yes he did reveal himself to them in the way they would understand, however he chose one people and named them as his own to lead the path to bringing his salvation to the world. So those who believed in him were in purgatory or hades or sheol (it is all the same place with different names by the way) and when Christ came he descended to them and released them from prison after preaching to them, they had to accept him.
For example, the Jewish atriarchs were not in heaven with God, they were in the land of the dead.

Purgatory doesn't get erased, however, ask Christ said he holds the keys to the place of the dead, Christ wouldn't hold the keys to the place that doesn't exist.
So purgatory is not for bad people who like to sin. It is for those who've accepted Christ and believe in the One Triune God that go to purgatory, they will all make it to heaven, but they have to get purged from their attachment to sin, hence the name purgatory. But initially it was called hades by the greek and sheol by the hebrews.
So that's where they went.

mazaje:
people on nairaland have been stating and defending their beliefs or faiths for a very long time now. . . .some defend their religions against others example the christian faith against islam or atheism while others defend their own sect of christianity example the endless arguments between the catholics and the protestants as who are the true christians that understand the teachings of the bible or what the religion is all about. other arguments or war ranges between other sects of the same faith example between the members of christ embassy vs other christians. . . .i just want to know if all the arguments or case laid out by any member of any religion or sect of belief has ever made any body here to convert, change his/her mind and leave his/her faith. . . for starters i know 2 people(i wont mention their names) that have become atheist because of their visits to the niaraland religious section. . . i just want to know if there are other atheist that have converted to christianity or islam because of their visit to the nairaland religious section. . . . .

It has strengthened my faith. Is that good enough? I wasn't lukewarm and I always knew there's a God, but coming here and being challenged and actually forced me to look deeper into my faith and the more I looked the more I learned about my faith, the more I know that my faith is truth, it can be exlained with logic. But unfortunately logic doesn't seem to be enough as logic is becoming relative.

OLAADEGBU:
It is impossible for a Christian to convert to atheism because a Christian is someone who knows God. QED.

Are you serious? What world are you living in? Not all Christians know God and certainly not all understand the full truth of the Christian religion. If you were to say those who truly understand and know the full truth of the christian religion will never become atheist ok I would understand, but it is very evident that ppl are christians by name only and not by understanding their faith, so plenty of christians have become atheists or muslims or buddhists, not because the truth lies in those religions but because they misunderstand their own religion.
When encountering them, I find out that most of them do not leave Christianity because of what Christianity really teaches, but because they do not know what christianity realy teaches. They leave for foolish reasons if you ask me.