₦airaland Forum

Maybe some people don't understand what amulets are.
Amulets are "magical" and not spiritual.
Don't confuse both, thanks.

There is no magic in Christianity. Thank you.

And all of you will claim, later that you believe in Trinity. Yet you have the notion of potion, amulet, goodluck charm, etc, etc. How real is your belief? Zero. If the 3 gods can help you, with their combined efforts, and you still need the extra source to make it happen, maybe, then know that Allah is sufficient for whomever He wills.

Do not be so quick to pass judgment, who told you that the people who posted before you are Christian. Did they announce it?
Because I didn't see and announcement.

Don't make me tell you of the muslims that are very deep into diabolicals. Infact it is how they attack a lot of successful Christians. My hairdresser's employee's mum was attacked by her muslims business partners. She was succeeding and they threatened her many times. They didn't accept the fact that a woman was more "intelligent" than them (men) in business, so they tried to take her life.

@Laibankz

Dear please return the money. Honestly this doesn't just happen in Nigeria. It happened at my Univeristy when we were switching to the new ERP system. A lot students received two refund checks from their student account after paying their tuition.

Well it came time for an audit and the problem was found, all students were asked to return the money. It was really sad because some of them saw it as a "blessing from God" especially the senior students and they didn't receive their diplomas until they returned every dime.

I got two checks also and never cashed it. I told them of the problem and tore up the check.

It is not worth it to see it as a "blessing from God" God doesn't send blessings in an immoral or illegal way. He will help you secure a job where you will work for your pay. This may actually be a blessing, but not the way you view it. Your blessing will come from your integrity and honesty in returning that money.

So please return it.

@ topic: You really can't go around telling everyone u meet 2 go 4 HIV test. remember there's something called freewill Be that as it may, if both parties have decided to be committed to the relationship, not just sexually- ohhhhh. . . .I mean wholeheartedly committed.

That'd be the right time to go for the test. .tis' part of getting to know each other, really. And I dare say it shouldn't stop at that, guys/babes are wont to cheat, Bleep what the self-righteous think. so ensure your test is periodical

I agree with the exception of the "Bleep" part, however I still agree with the point it is making.

lol. At least you and David, have a common enemy; me. I know you have to go on and on, before I begin to get the hint.
When I grow up, i want to be wise just like you.

I have no enemies. Thanks. Oh good you got the point.

Huxley

300 years ago there was no Nigeria.

Paul was talking to the Phillipians who were already christians. Lets leave the muslims and sort ourselves out jere.

Yes sir. I'll stop. I pray that one day we will all be one as Christ asked.

you're welcome lady!
i pray Our Lord - Wisdom itself, and Our Lady Seat of Wisdom to nourish and strenghten you as you go about enlightening others on our precious faith, passed down to us by the apostles themselves. . .

hope you're doing good!

I am and I pray that you are staying blessed.
May the Lord look upon you with favour.

hey guys, I have not been able to connect since last week.

Oby, Carlosein, Lindiwe and Lady. How is life?

Viee is no where to be found.

eya pele.
I am great. How are you?

Have you heard about the Ahmadiyyah movement, worldwide? Have you heard ofthe Nation of Islam, which "Minister" Louis Farakkan is the head? Have you heard of the 5%ers? Have you heard of the Nubian or Nubian Muslims, which "Dr." York, now in Prison in Atlanta was the head when they used to be in Bushwick section of Brooklyn in the 70s and the early 80s? And surprisingly, no one have killed them. Also in Middle East, especially in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq, there are handful of others, like the Drus, etc, who are neither generally classified as Shia or Sunni.

Do you really want me to answer this question because it would lead to you dodging the historical truth.
Are these people free to study Islam the way they do, absolutely not. You know very well that these people face persecution especially in the muslim lands.

But you fail to emulate Jesus when it came to death. Why? I thought you love Jesus that much and nothing you would not do for him, because of what he has done for you?

I actually do. I am dead to the world, and now I live in Christ.

I hope you are not truly mad with me and please restore back the respect you said you lost for me. You should not be stingy, woman. I am still waiting for that day that you will say, look man I already restore back the respect.

Ofcourse I am. I expected better from you and did hold you in high regards. But you resorted to lie.
Stingy in what? You lied and I expected better from you. Ofcourse you've lied before, and I didn't pay attention to it because we are all sinners, but you took it too far. You do have to apologise.

Insert Quote
Any to answer my question ?

Are you asking a question to be answered and if so are you actually reading the posts to see the answer. Because this was posted. Read below.

If you really want to know who a true Christian is, go to the Bible and it will tell you.
Then look for it in those you meet. trust me you will know them. Those who help you without expecting something in return are true Christians, those who will be nice to you even after you insult them (they may be angry for a while, but won't hold malice with you) they're true christians, those who have a love for Christ to live as he did and stick to te commandments, they are true christians. but most of all those who are sinners and get themselves up rather than wallow in their sin are true christians. those who can forgive from the heart, not just others but themselves too.
those who love you even if they don't know you.

I do not agree with the notion that you have to accept the bible or indeed any sacred texts before you are a christian.

Then you have not carefully read the Bible. The Bible does not suppot your notion of Christianity without the Bible. Sacred scripture is important.
You are not a Christian if you do not draw from the words of Christ himself.

So in other words you've been deliberately perpetuating a huge falsehood for the last 2 pages? Its not only about "missing the comma", it says a lot about you and your inclination to cling desperately to a lie to cloak uncomfortable facts.

Too bad.

It is not falsehood. It was an honest mistake. If it was a deliberate attempt it would be falsehood. Islam is falsehood, a mistake is not falsehood.

you are always "wanting to know". Now that we can agree that you missed a very important comma in the catechism in question may we also know what your interpretation of it means?

That the muslims profess (claim) to have the faith of Abraham as Christians do, and we now as Christians can acknowledge them on that claim and they are included in the plan of salvation.

Your catechism does NOT include muslims in the "plan of salvation" rather it CATEGORICALLY makes the claim that, AS THEY ARE, muslims do not need the gospel of redemption as, TOGETHER WITH YOU, they already worship the One, True God.

No it does not. If that would be the case then the Jews would also not need the gospel of reemption. You and I know that they worship the same God as the Christians, they however choose to remain blind to the gospel, the true way to eternal salvation. Unless you want to lay the claim that because the Jews don't believe in the Gospel then they must not be worshipping the same God as Christians do.
If so you will have to explain to me how it is that the God of the Old Testament is different from the God of the New Testament.

Worshipping the same God however doesn't mean that the way in which you choose to worshipping Him is the true way.

I have reiterated earlier and JeSoul has wisely remarked that you are all emotion and precious little substance. Go over the entire thread, the issue has NEVER been about excluding muslims from the plan of salvation. We ALL KNOW that Christ came to shed His blood for ALL MANKIND including muslims so the only reason i believe you keep bringing this moot point up is as a way to hide your own disgraceful attempt to perpetuate a lie.

Well then you must have missed my first post.
Certainly that is the reason why AKO decided to question the "plan of salvation" and why you had to reiterate it and seek my explanation of it.

So yes it has been both issue.

But anyway, still they profess it and if they really believe that they are serving the same God then by all means I will acknowledge that. They however have the wrong perception of how God truly is. They believe that God is a "master" only and that he cannot have a relationship with his creation, while we Catholics believe that God is a "Father" and that he can have a relationship with his creation. By including them in the plan of salvation we welcome them with their belief and in so doing show them God's true nature and essence.
Then the perception of God is shifted from how they view God, to how God truly is.

The catechism is what is in question, are muslims, AS THEY ARE, really serving the same God as you?

You know what I will say Yes. After realising that the Jews also serve the same God even though they deny the Gospel, they do profess the same faith of Abraham. I don't see why it is I can't accept Muslims profession. I accept it and pray that they will see the true nature of God and not the false one that Muhammad portrayed.

bla bla bla. Who is excluding who from what? Where was this ever insinuated by anyone? Please discuss the catechism and stop ducking in shame.

Do I really need to remind you of the question from AKO about the plan of salvation that you were pressing for an explanation of?

Zacheus was a sinner, Paul was an avowed hater of the gospel and YET Christ still reached this men. Who are we, mere sinners, to talk of excluding anyone from the plan of salvation?

So you agree with us now?

Just wanted to remind you on your stance on the "plan of salvation"

A K O made a very important point that seems to have been buried in the hubris of long pointless posts from our resident catholic . . . and i reproduce it here.


Quote from: A_K_O on Yesterday at 10:56:47 AM
Is there anything in the "plan of salvation" that requires having the faith of Abraham? Please educate me.

Read A K O's comment as i reproduced in my last post

You weren't in support of it.

Lady i really am busy today . . . i would so have loved to take on your heresy filled hubris but very soon ma'am.

aww and here i am looking forward to the party.

@Davidylan: I am that lazy. So explain it, here and now. Alhamdulillah. I am grateful that I am a slave of Allah.

A word is enough for the wise. Unfortunately a word is not enough for you.

I am waiting for the day a MAN will put his hands on Me!! All Hell is going to break loose.

Girl castration str8. I don't play that.

I am not a punching bag. After that I will confess to God for my sins, and pray for salvation of his soul. But I will loose my mind first and castrate him.

My friends say I am too much of a Lady.
And I always loved Fela's song Lady

Mary is taken up into heaven; the Angels rejoice and, mingling their praises, bless the Lord, Alleluia!

The 9-day Novena in honour of the festival of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary begins tomorrow, August 6 – The Feast of Our Lord’s Transfiguration. No matter how small, please do something in Our Lady’s honour. Our Lady cannot be outdone in generosity.

May be you can now pray your Rosary, Litany, and all other traditional prayers of the Church in honour of Our Lady more thoughtfully and devotedly. If you are very lucky, may be you could find time to attend Mass devotedly daily.
If you are lucky, you could find time to visit Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament all through this period in Our Lady’s honour. May be you can do your work more diligently and devotedly in Our Lady’s honour . May be you could bring more people to Confession and the Sacrament. May be you could go on a pilgrimage to any of Our Lady’s Shrine. Just do something

May the prayer of the Mother of God come to the assistance of Your people, O Lord; for, though we know that in the flesh she has passed from us, we feel that in heavenly glory she intercedes for us with You; through Christ Our Lord. Amen

Thanks for this thoughtful reminder and tips.

Yes, I read John 1

how can, you don't draw from the Bible.

huxley, o boy wetin be your own sef? good quesion, but na wa o, abeg make we breathe small.

why are there over 30 thousand denominations each claiming they hold the true knowledge of the bible and the message of jesus? why are there over 80 translations of the englsih bible alone? why do each sect in the christain religion portrays it self as an independent religion? why all the divisions? have you read the history of christainity and the bible? go ahead and answer the question and stop making excuses for your self.

Because there are too many self ordained men and women of God. And because Christianity is truly about peace no one goes around beating the living daylight out of them. Now I bet you they can't do that with Islam, oh no, they will surely die.

But hey everyone wants to make a mockery of Christianity.

If you really want to know who a true Christian is, go to the Bible and it will tell you.
Then look for it in those you meet. trust me you will know them. Those who help you without expecting something in return are true Christians, those who will be nice to you even after you insult them (they may be angry for a while, but won't hold malice with you) they're true christians, those who have a love for Christ to live as he did and stick to te commandments, they are true christians. but most of all those who are sinners and get themselves up rather than wallow in their sin are true christians. those who can forgive from the heart, not just others but themselves too.
those who love you even if they don't know you.

I will ask a simple question - was the sabbath law made for the JEWS ONLY or for ALL THE GENTILES? If your argument is that the sabbath STILL APPLIES to GENTILES THEN my dear WHY are we not obeying all the other JEWISH laws in leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy and all?

Lol you know I actually missed this.

Um so if the sabbath was only meant for the Jews, doesn't that mean that the rest of the law was meant for the Jews?
You do know that the ultimate sacrifice was made in Jesus, so it's not like God abolished the law that a sacrifice was to be made, infact this time he provided us with the sacrifice.

Are you so sure that the JEWISH laws in leviticus, Numbers, Deutoronomy and all are not being obeyed? Because if they aren't, shouldn't we all be sleeping with our parents, brothers, sisters, or committing adultery, or stealing or coveting ur neighbours goods or wives or husbands.

Wait a minute though the law of the sabbath was not laid out in Leviticus or Deutoronomy or Numbers, it was laid out in Exodus, so I guess that too should be applied only to the Jews.

I really pity you if you really believe in what you wrote.

What are the commandments of God?

Why have we refused to offer up our own burnt offerings and sacrifices?

Because Christ is being offered up everyday for us.

Where are our own feasts of the passover?

ah wait you don't celebrate this? Christ celebrated this o.

why do we not also celebrate the feast of purim?

You know I scrolled through the ten commandments I thought I was so blind all my life that I should have missed purim as a part of the ten commandments. But then I see purim is not a part of the ten commandments.

This is the argument of the drowning man clutching at straws. Let me digress a bit to address your glaring ignorance - when God created Adam, did He do so bearing in mind that Adam would disobey Him and end up outside the garden of Eden? Did God's word when He created change subject to the fall of Man?

when did the creation of man become part of the ten commandments. my friend stick to the issue at and. you were trying to explain to us how we only have 9 commandments instead of 10.

Sarcasm shld not be a substitute for knowledge.

I wasn't being sarcastic. I was really asking you not to insult God.

Go back and read Paul's words again, they seem to have skipped your comprehension. Paul was clear - LET NO MAN JUDGE YOU IN MEAT, DRINK OR IN OBSERVANCE OF THE SABBATH! He was refering to lost folks like you who think everyone is going to hell because they don't obey sabbath laws STRICTLY MEANT FOR THE JEWS!

Now you're going to have to show me where I said that everyone is going to hell for not observing the sabbath.
Secondly well I already showed you how Paul handled the sabbath.

I suppose the question YOU hypocrite shld put to Christ Himself is this - master are there now only 2 commandments rather than 10?

You must seriously lack basic english comprehension. The scribe did not ask how many commandments there were but[b] which of the commandments were the greatest[/b]. Do we really have to get into this again David?

Don't be so desperate as to turn this into another issue.

Now show how it is Christ abolished the sabbath law by saying that the greatest of all ten commandments were those two.
I guess by your reasoning, because Christ mentioned those two then the other ones were abolished too ehn.

Lady i wan sleep, i will respond tomorrow morning . . . even a fanatic needs rest (whether na sabbath una dey call am).

Good night.

I'm just curious, you seem to respond ONLY after 32 years! wetin happen? had to consult your pope?

Well I'm sorry, see I have this thing called life and I actuall enjoy living it. You see I go to school, I volunteer, I sing in the Choir so I went to choir practice tonight, and I go shopping I had to get new speakers for my comp and a new calculator for my cost accounting test on thursday, I lost my old one. and I like to chill with my friends which I am about to go do right now cause it's my friend's bday, I also like going to lunch and dinner and I like to talk to my friends and family on the phone, so I decided to go do those things today.

So forgive me for not sitting in front of the computer waiting for his highness david. You might want to find a life, you'll find it to be very refreshing.

Now good night. May the angels be at your side to watch and guard.

That is your own ridiculous interjection that is NOT apparent from the catechism. If truly those two shld be linked the CORRECT grammatical construction would have been - these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and that together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

John claims that he is an accountant and along with Sam going to the convention of accountants.

So what did John claim and what did I add into it?

What a stupid statement . . .

then define it wihtout looking at a dictionary.

Here is a quote from your pope Sept 23, 2001 - And in this celebration we want to pray for Kazakhstan and its inhabitants, so that this vast nation, with all its ethnic, cultural and religious variety, will grow stronger in justice, solidarity and peace. May it progress on the basis in particular of cooperation between Christians and Muslims, committed day by day, side by side, in the effort to fulfil God’s will.

Thank God someone is actually living up to the teachings of Christ. So what are we to do burn the muslims, hiss at them when we see them, pass judgment on them, or invite them to dine with us as Christ dined with the sinners.

You hypocrite, you must have studied english language for all your yelling - the comma after Abraham is CLEAR indication that it is SEPARATE from the rest of the statement to the right except they all belong in the same sentence.

ooops sorry missed the comma

Another very stupid lie . . . here is your own pope again - ‘There is one God’. The Apostle proclaims before all else the absolute oneness of God. This is a truth which Christians inherited from the children of Israel and which they share with Muslims: it is faith in the one God, ‘Lord of heaven and earth’ (Lk.10:21), almighty and merciful. In the name of this one God, I turn to the people of deep and ancient religious traditions, the people of Kazakhstan

ok your point is.

The Church has also a high regard for the Muslims. They worship God, who is one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has also spoken to men. They strive to submit themselves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God, just as Abraham submitted himself to God’s plan, whose faith Muslims eagerly link to their own.

where is the lie in this?

Thanks for clarifying that for me. So now I want to know what the wrong is in acknowledging the faith of the Muslims. And also what is wrong in including them in the plan of salvation.
One after reading the quran, I see that they may think that they worship the same God but it is not. However still I don't see how that secludes them from the plan of salvation.

To me even atheist are included in the plan of salvation. If they, today want to come to God through Christ then I don't see why not.

David thanks for proving your ignorance and blasphemey.
Now if you will please tell us what are the commandments and how many of them are there?

I feel so sorry for you and whoever listens to you.

But thanks for showing your ignorance.
You said it all.

Read Matthew 22 from verse 35! Enough of half-baked christians diluting the true words of Christ with their own man-made doctrines.

The man asked for the greatest of the commandments in the law and Jesus replied the first commandment and then the second which is like it which is to love God and your neighbour.

So please explain to me how that nullifies the third commandment.
Remember to keep holy the Lord's day, which is the sabbath.

VALID! The question is WHAT IS THE LAW? The 10 commandments only?

EVERYTHING IS SUMMED UP IN THE TEN COMMANDMENTS.
IT IS THE TEN COMMANDMENTS THAT WERE PUT INTO THE ARK OF THE COVENANT, THE TEN COMMANDMENTS WAS THE COVENANT, JESUS IS THE COMMANDMENTS, HE IS GOD'S WORD AND LAW IN THE FLESH.

Pastor David we are all years.
We know nothing so why don't you enlighten us. You better not back down from this o, because you already challenged yourself to speak against all blasphemy, so oya speak and educate us here. Thanks.

Before you just post without thinking, the question here is WHO was Christ speaking to? The JEWS! Are gentiles also to observe the sabbath?

You're right, infact the first commandment doesn't apply to the gentiles, the second doesn't apply either, and neither does the fourth or the fifth or the sixth or the seventh or the eight or the ninth or the tenth. Since God is a nullifier of his law I guess none of them should be adhered to.

God gave the ten commandments to the Jews and not to the gentiles.

Infact let us apply your reasoning to the other sayings of Christ when it came to the commandments. Since because Christ was speaking to the JEWS when he mentioned the commandments and not to the gentiles I guess when he said this:

Matthew 5:19
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

He was speaking to the JEWS so then it doesn't apply to the gentiles.

or is it when he said this:

Matthew 19:17
Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.

He was speaking to the the JEWS so it doesn't apply to the gentiles

or is it this:

Matthew 22: 37
"You shall love the Lord your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind
38 This is the greates and the first commandment
39 The second is like it: You shall love your neighbour as yourself
40 The law and the prophets depend on these two commandments

He was speaking to the JEWS so it doesn't apply to the gentiles.

Oh but wait a minute, here's what Paul says:

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace

since we want to go ahead and say that when it was abolished it was abolished so did Paul mean that the commandments were abolished here? Does this mean that I don't have to love God, does this mean that I don't have to honour my parents, does this mean that I can commit adultery, does this mean that I can steal?

What does this mean David?

So according to your reasoning since the commandments were spoken to the JEWS and not the gentiles, then we the gentiles don't even have to observe any of the laws or commandments.

Before you, as usual, post without thinking . . . who were the apostles? JEWS!
who were they speaking to? JEWS!

the question remains . . . are Gentiles also obliged to keep the sabbath? If not then are we not in danger of only obeying 9 of 10 commandments?

Well the commandments were not given to the gentiles but only to the JEWS, so I guess we don't need to keep the commandments.

Do YOU HYPOCRITE observe the sabbath?

Oh yes this "hypocrite" certainly observes the sabbath.

The Jews also levied a valid accusation against Him in John 5:18

They levied a great deal of accusations against him, which of them were true. including calling him a nuisance to the society and one who drove out demons by the power of demons, which of them were true?

Silly accusation to cloak your own spiritual ignorance. the jews had been practicing the sabbath for thousands of years before Christ came . . . all of a sudden they misunderstood it? The disciples walked through a field of corn and made themselves food on the sabbath . . .

The Jews not only kept to the sabbath but to all the other law yet they still misunderstood the law when it came to them in the flesh. So did Christ abolish the law when he came or did he come to magnify it.
He came to magnify it and not abolsih it. The Jews had already gone astray from the law even though they thought they held it to te highest magnitude.

But hey since you say that Christ came to abolish the law what set of new commandments did he put in?

The fact that the books were read IN THE SYNAGOGUES is enough clues to tell us this was strictly to the jews. Where the gentile believers also forced to observe the sabbath?

Once again the laws were given to the Jews why do the gentiles need to observe it? We should throw it out.

11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Paul addressed that particular quote very well right here:

"As I swore in my wrath, they shall not enter into my rest" and yet his works were accomplished at the foundation of the world.
4 For he has spoke about the seventh day in this manner, "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works";
5 and again, in the previously mentioned place, "They shall not enter into my rest."
6Therefore, since it remins that some will enter into it, and those who formerly received the good news did not enter because of disobedience,
7 he once more set a day, "today," when long afterwards he spoke through David, as he already quoted: "oh that today you would hear his voice: harden not your hearts."
8 Now if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoke anfterwards of another day,
9 Therefore, a sabbath rest still remains for the people of God.
10 And whoever enters into God's rest, rests from his own works as God did from his.

You would have done well to have read my post to see that Paul answered the question there.

So yes God was talking about the Sabbath.

One other thing evident from your quotation . . . the term "sabbath rest" is absent from most other versions of the bible . . . rather it simply says "rest" . . . where did you get your heresy from?

Ok take away sabbath. If God rested on the seventh day and the people were to enter into that rest with him? What do you call that day?

_{*Jeopardy theme playing*}

Oh wait that's right it is called the sabbath. *gasps* OH MY!!!

No Lady. You don't know how I feel about catholics. You know what I've written on this forum about catholicism. What conclusions you then formed from that I don't know.

Honestly do I need to start saving conversations or sayings for people to remind them of the things they have said, cause too many people catch amnesia in this forum o.

Anyway do you want the book or not?

Lady I said I am done 'discussing' with you, please do not address me in any of your bitter posts. Stop calling me names and insults just because you have nothing better to say. I wasn't talking to you in my last post so please don't respond to me.

I have catholic friends that I love and respect and have even talked with many here on Nairaland. . . but you I want absolutely nuthin to do with as people like you leave a bad taste in many people's mouth. So please don't address me. Simple.

You have to be kidding me. You have paraded up and down here insulting people all over the place even going so far as to call Catholics evil, and I quote you about your saying on the catechism: "Evil Book"

and you're talking about insults.

I will pray for you. Only God can deliver you from yourself.

I pointed out that you insulted me and you in turn move to say that I am the one insulting. I know I have insulted you, it is on display for all to see, but also know that it is on display for all to see that you have insulted not just me but all Catholics all around the world and even your Catholic friends. So much for being a friend.

Omo you no get level.

DAVIDYLAN

You missed this part.

these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

basically they profess that they hold the faith of Abraham and together with us they adore the one merciful God, mankind's judge.

They profess these: that they hold the faith of Abraham and together with us they adore the one merciful God, mankind's judge.


This is their profession: that they hold the faith of Abraham and together with us they adore the one merciful God, mankind's judge.

So all that after the colon is their profession and not what the Catholic Church believes thanks.

they profess that they "hold the faith of Abraham" and along with that profession they also profess that "together with us they adore the one merciful God, mankind's judge"

Seriously though this is simple english.

But I can also clearly see that you don't even know the meaning of profess either.

Their profession does not end in the "hold the faith of Abraham" it continues on to "and that together with us they adore the one merciful God, mankind's judge"

Basically the profession did not end after the "Abraham" in that sentence, infact it continues on with the "and", you know
The catechism isn't instructing that Catholics to think that muslim's worship the same God as Christians, but instruct us to know that the muslims claim that they worship the same God.

When you use "and" in a sentence without a comma you are joining it with the sentence that follows basically creating a compound sentence. Does that help?
Or do I need to take it primary school english? because I will. Education is the key to everything and I don't hold back on educating someone. I worked for the Florida State Department of Education here in the U.S. I know just how imperative education is and I am willing to help you. I am serious.



I am done with you. I pray God helps you to comprehend english.

I'm not asking if Moses and Elijah were saved. I'm asking whether having the faith of Abraham is a prequisite to be saved. I have done some research and come up with this:

Quote
Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

.

I was trying to show you that the plan of salvation did not begin when Christ started walking the earth, I was using Moses and Elijah as an example. But if you need Bible verses on salvation then here they are:

Exodus 15:2
The LORD is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation. He is my God, and I will praise him, my father's God, and I will exalt him.

2 Samuel 23:5
"Is not my house right with God? Has he not made with me an everlasting covenant, arranged and secured in every part? Will he not bring to fruition my salvation and grant me my every desire?

Seriously the way in which Christ came to use is through the promise to Abraham, that is how Abraham became the father of many nations. Christ is of the lineage of Abraham. Remember he comes from the tribe of Judah.

Ac 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock (or genealogy) of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent

Ok so how is this not including Abraham? This only proves that the plan of salvation is including Abraham. Not believing in Abraham is also not believing in the promise from God to Abraham and in so doing, not believing in Christ.

Anyway I have to run. will be back.

"Discussing" with you is pointless. You are all emotion and no substance. What have I or anyone said that is "bashing" catholics? a simple quote was stated and asked to be explained, everyone else on this thread and your pope included reads and understands it clearly but you go on an emotional rampage crying persecution and bashing. . . I'm done with you since you cannot seem to partake in honest and genuine discourse.

I suppose you lack amnesia when you made this statement.

wow lady you are really incapable of facing truth when its right in front of you. You're desperately trying to twist the quote from your catechism to mean something else. . . its ludicrous. To show you your folly here are your precious Pope's words himself affirming what the poster says, and what anyone who understands english gleans from that quote.

or maybe you missed david's which you highly support and even gave an answer to

Miss, sometimes one wonders if you do comprehend the things you read or you're just so resistant to the truth.

Now please read that catechism and try so hard not to be a hypocrite about it. Note the highlights -

The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Together with who? anyone with half a brain shld be able to put two and two together. I rest my case

Now one more time. What does profess mean?
Was Jesus lying when he said that there are those who will call his name but not have him in his heart?
It's amazing how you have completed missed my question.

Please are there any other real catholics around who care to honestly explain this quote?

either you are blind or completely lack the comprehension of the english langauage

so i will repeat again.

Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham and that they also profess that together with Christians they adore the one, merciful God, and mankind's judge on the last day.

You may not realise that professing and possessing are different things. Jesus himself let us know that there are those who will profess to be believers in him, but do not actually believe in him or was Jesus lying?

Now they may profess or claim that they are worshippers of the same God, but that does not in anyway mean that truly the allah they claim is actually the one we claim. Get it now.

I can easily come to you and profess that I am an accountant, but does that mean that I actually possess an accounting degree? No.

There that is enough explanation of what it means to profess, but I thank God once again that I am Catholic. One because I actually don't discriminate as Jesus himself does not discriminate. He sat with the sinners and welcomed them in the plan of salvation. So are muslims welcome to salvation? Yes they absolutely are.
Does that mean that the plan of salvation includes them? Yes it does.

I would really like for you to explain to me how they could not possibly be included in the plan of salvation. And also how it is that God's plan of salvation is limited to you and also to time.

Did you read these fundamental words of Christ? Matthew 10:34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

  35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

  36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

So what you're saying is that we should abandon our family? Please clarify.

It is more than evident you don't even know what christ taught hence your aversion to simply backing up your points from the bible as i have always begged of you.

So salvation is not open to everyone?

Luke 3:5-6

"5Every valley shall be filled in,
     every mountain and hill made low.
  The crooked roads shall become straight,
     the rough ways smooth.
6And all mankind will see God's salvation."

Notice it did not say that some of mankind, but all of mankind.

Your catechism clearly states that muslims, AS THEY ARE, worship the same God "together with you" and thus have no need of conversion!

Um no the catechism states that they are the ones who "claim" (profess) to believe in the same God as they are.
Don't put words into our mouths.

ask about me, I'm not one to enagage in pointless arguments. Whether we agree or not, I still enjoy honest and straightforward discourse.

ok seriosly girl you know you are lying here, if you don't see that, i feel sorry for you.

This is an example of something that I can't find in my bible. I'm not out to bash anyone. IMO everyone has the right to question beliefs that are contrary to theirs and to feel dissatisfied when an answer is not convincing enough.

You know I have true resepct for you, because out of all on here you actually listen a bit to what Catholics have to say and don't go around calling us baseless names.

So to answer your question here. You know very well that you are not going to find those words in the Bible just as you do not find Trinity in the Bible.
So why are you looking for it in the Bible?
Now to ask us whether we only use the Bible? Well no, we hold on to the traditions handed down tous by the apostles. Even the Bible acclaims to it that the apostles wanted us to stay true to what they taught, in the time when there was no Bible:

2 Thessalonians 2:15
15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

The teachings we have today in the Church did not originate from the air but from the apostles themselves, by word of mouth and by letter. The word of mouth are the ones in which you don't read and those by the letter are the ones which you do read today in the Bible.
But as we all know that the books and letters in the Bible are not all that were written, but a select few which holds the general message of what Christ taught.

Until someone can prove to me that the early Christians had the Bible, then I will stay true to their teachings that they have handed down.
But still none of the teachings that were handed down contradict anything in the Bible.

Jesus is still the Son of God and through him all things were made and thorugh him comes salvation, Mary is still the Mother of the Word incarnate and therefore making her the mother of God the Son, denying her this title is denying Christ's divinity. Never was there a time that Jesus the man was separate from Jesus the God, he is truly man and truly God without separation. The body of Christ is not only on earth, even after death they are still a part of the body of Christ, saying that they are not a part of the body is to detach an arm or a leg from Christ's body, and St. Paul already let us know"

1 Corinthians 12:12 -

12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire[ the greater gifts.
     And now I will show you the most excellent way.

Just because they are dead does not mean that they are not a part of the body of Christ and we need them just as they need us.
If they are without our need then why do we baptise for them (the dead) :
"Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?" 1 Corinthians 15: 29

I hope that hepls. If you have any questions, please ask and an answer shall be provided you.

This was directed at Jesoul but I'd like to say that I would really like to see how Catholics get out of this thread's topic with a biblical explanation to what is in the Catechism concerning it. If you can do this convincingly enough, I'd acknowledge it even though I may not accept it. But as it is now, you have not been able to and that's probably, probably why you are accusing others of "catholic bashing"

Unless someone can show me that the Plan of salvation does not include sinners, I will stand by the statement in the catechism.
Then someone will have to tell me why it is we agree that Christians are sinners, unless the general concensus is that Christians are not sinners, and if so why do we still ask for forgiveness.

Someone is going to have to show me where it is in the Bible that Christ said he was going to the found sheep of Isreal and not the lost sheep.

Then someone will have to explain to me how it is that they are perfect since the plan of salvation is not including the sinners.

Is there anything in the "plan of salvation" that requires having the faith of Abraham? Please educate me.

Yes. The plan of salvation began when God told the serpent that the seed of the woman would crush his head he would bruise the heel of the seed of the woman.
Please remember that God is not confined to time and that salvation of his people did not begin when Christ came to the earth, but that the salvation was manifested when Christ walked the earth, if God was confined to time, how then was Elijah and Enoch taken to heaven.
Salvation is the freedom from sin. If salvation was not in effect at that time how then was Moses and Elijah able to make it to heaven.

The ten commandments are very necessary and are still in effect and never nullified not even by Christ.

Christ himself is the law, he won't nullify himself.

Did Jesus have anything to say about the state of the sabbath after his death?

yes he did. he spoke of an even that would take place after his death

matthew 24:20
pray that your flight not be in winter or on the sabbath.
Obviously Jesus expected the sabbath to be still in place and honoured at that time. That would be strange if his apostles were to abandon it shortly after his death.

Did the apostles keep the sabbath after Jesus' death?

you bet they did.

Acts 13:14
but they passed on from Perga and came to Antioch of Pisid'ia. And on the sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down.

Acts 13:44
The next sabbath almost the whole city gathered together to hear the word of God.

Acts 16:13
and on the sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer; and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together

Acts 18:4
And he argued in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded Jews and Greeks.

Acts 17:2
Paul, as was his custom, went in to them, and for three Sabbath days reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Christ never broke the sabbath, he wouldn't be the Son of God if he were to go against the law.
But some self professed pastors will claim that.

The Jews misunderstood the law of the sabbath, Jesus even went further to inform them that they perform circumcision on the sabbath so how can it be wrong that he makes a man whole on the sabbath. John 7:21-23

The apostles continued with the law, with the reading of the word on the sabbath

Acts 15:21
For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.

Now some people want to misinterpret Paul as saying that the sabbath is nullified. But he didn't.

Hebrews 4:1
1 Therefore, let us be on our guard while the promise of entering into his rest remains, that none of you sem to have failed.
2 For in fact we have received the god news just as he they did. But the word that they heard did not benefit them, for they were not united in faith with those who listened.
3 For we who have believed enter into that rest, just as he has said: "As I swore in my wrath, they shall not enter into my rest" and yet his works were accomplished at the foundation of the world.
4 For he has spoke about the seventh day in this manner, "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works";
5 and again, in the previously mentioned place, "They shall not enter into my rest."
6Therefore, since it remins that some will enter into it, and those who formerly eceived he good news did not enter because of disobedience,
7 he once more set a day, "today," when long afterwards he spoke through David, as he already quoted: "oh that today you would hear his voice: harden not your hearts."
8 Now if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoke anfterwards of another day,
9 [size=16pt]Therefore, a sabbath rest still remains for the people of God[/size].
10 Ans whoever enters into God's est, rests from his own works as God did from his.
11 Therefore let us strive to enter into that rest, so that no one ma fall after the same example of disobedience.

Plain and simple the sabbath still stands, even in the new covenant.

Was Christ WILFULLY DISOBEDIENT to the law of the sabbath?

maybe you missed the part about him being Lord of the sabbath.
So I guess you should also be disobedient to the law

You know what david you are right. The sabath was nullified. Infact we don't have ten commandments, we only have nine.

Infact God's word changes abi? not so david? God is subject to time right david and dats why his word changes eh?

What was the real message in verse 27?

you know what i am the "another 'christian' who is in need of guidance" so please enlighten me yo holiness, the one not in need of guidance.

but please in you quest don't insult God and limit him by claiming that he nullifies his word and in so doing claiming that he lies.
Oya go ahead.

If Christ had broken the sabbath, "a sin in the old testament", how did HE ascend the cross as the SINLESS ONE?

ahhh your know it allness, please enlighten me. I can't wait for you to do so. I am in need of guidance, guide me, pls.

~Lady~, was brother Paul also a "silly" christian simply twisting scripture to validate himself?

nah he wasn't, he was speaking the truth, but you however twist it.

so pls your know it allness, enlighten me the lost one.

and while your at it. Pray tell what are the commandments of God? How many of them are there?

I believe christians are nothing but unarmed assasins/murderers.

be careful not to be general.