₦airaland Forum

Well well. if mr inventor worked at the institute then it is only politically correct to announce the discovery in the name of the institute or a suitable representative. He (like most inventors) was naive and did not protect his invention with a patent

@JeSoul

Lol. I guess our interests are reversed. I was actually trying to focus on morality from the context of both man and God - using Hezekiah's illness and recovery and subsequent fall as a mini-case study. Not to put you on the spot but if you (or anyone else actually - Vesc hello? Image hello?) would like to take a stab at these particular questions

I will oblige (to the best of my knowledge) btw our interests are not totally reversed  It just requires a Leap of Faith for me and that is another matter altogether (another theme for discussion)

Question 1: was it immoral/wrong for God to have told Hezekiah he was going to die?
I am fishing here but I assume the King had prospered from God's benevolence for quite a while (not to mention the slaying the army that besieged his kingdom)without making recompense

2nd Chronicles 32:25 But Hezekiah rendered not again (Sacrifices, Praise, Worship, Glory etc) according to the benefit done unto him; for his heart was lifted up: (Pride has always nicked God the wrong way) therefore there was wrath upon him, and upon Judah and Jerusalem.

Answer 1: No it was not morally wrong; It was a necessary (morally-correct) consequence of the Kings actions that brought about his illness and God's pronouncement of his death by proxy (Prophet Isaiah)

Question 2: was it wrong for God to have listened to Hezekiah's prayer and healed him? knowing that allowing him to live would result in a terrible tragedy for his whole family and the entire nation?

Answer 2: For one thing God had no need for his vaunted powers of creation - being the resident herbalist, he knew exactly which bush leaves to mix The King was not perfect, but he was a righteous man nonetheless. Soo; Yes and No - God get soft-spot for im real person and mild arm-twisting on the part of the King was involved to get his "self-centered wishes"

2nd Chronicles 32:26 Notwithstanding Hezekiah humbled himself for the pride of his heart, both he and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the wrath of the LORD came not upon them in the days of Hezekiah.

Question 3: would it have been better if Hezekiah had simply died?
Answer 3: I am in agreement that it would have been better, (he had paid his dues in full after-all)

Question 4: Hezekiah's standing with God was relatively good until the last 15yrs, was his eternal standing compromised by God saving his life earlier?
Answer 4: The benefit of hindsight the King failed to note - God can grant you your wish against his better judgment, but the consequences are yours to bear.

Psalm 106:15 He gave them their request but sent leanness into their soul

Question 5: Today, would it be considered 'wrong' for God not to act to save a life?

Answer 5: I would not touch this one with a 100Ft Pole (it remains a controversial - largely unanswered question)

1.1M !!! Sold!!! the the Drunk guy in Orange pants

Just kidding I hope it will still be there by February 2011

How would you know your wife is doing African JaZZ on you, that is a tough one cos they usually find out when the JaZZ expires and is not renewed.
Unless f'course you too are well jaZZed up with early-warning detector. anf if you have that then you are a womanizer and deserve to be JazZed down. IMHO

the bros try jor at least is is a bit original

You'd be surprised how quick your blood-brother will give you up to the vampires for a small dosh of cash.

Best i have done is download the torrents with all cables, it is taking a while though

where was the last location it was used please

^^^ Abeg go boil stone jor

Alao Akala, the Famed AMALA Politician, betta shut your gbegiri-filled mouth and go climb a jagged Shalanga and crap hard loi-loi until you fall into the pit of shyt! you over-grown piglet

Cain, Judas (Iscariot) Hezekiah, Nebuchadnezzar,Two thieves on either of Jesus side at crucifixion, The Tower of Babel and King Solomon's reign are among aspects of Bible and History that are of deep academic interest to me. but i will summarize my take on Hezekiah

He was a Practical Man and one for Religious Reforms, so he is in my books a "Responsible Man of God" who unfortunately came to a sad end with his Kingdom and conscience in tatters.

The part of his story that interests me is not that God extended the years of his life but the events that transpired during those years. His rebellion against the Assyrian Empire and Sennacherib’s invasion is proof to the weird power of prophecy, He faced a painful dilemma; Listening to his political and military advisers on one hand, and the "caustic" prophet Isaiah rebuking him on the other.

With the Kingdom of Judah at risk, he reasoned that trusting in God seem the obvious choice but the reality on ground demanded reason more than faith (for the time-being the threat of Egypt was imminent) , Judah was a vassal state to the Assyrian empire (with it some un-Godly practices that must have angered God ). He had accepted physical, spiritual, and metaphorical slavery over trust in God’s deliverance and I figure if it were up to most people; facing the ruthless might of the Assyrian, we too may have made the decisions Hezekiah did.

and given another 1,000,000,000 years Nigerians will simply sit-down and continue to shuffer and shmile

^^^ Jesoul. Muchos Gracias.
I think there is a fine line where Faith meets Reason in agreement. will digest further reading of the Bible with this in mind

^^^ but it will, ultimately

1: How do we reconcile the fact that PHCN's much vaunted National Assets (on Paper) are not at par with the physical ones on-ground
2: How do you handle the huge debt profile FG has on PHCN's books (Is it pseudo-Privatization or Privatization-proper)
3: How do you re-train the estimated 80% of PHCN workers over 50 yrs old in Field and Office
4: FG has set plans to pay benefits and pension arrears when redundant staff are let off. is this going to change the Valuation of PHCN Assets

@Image123 & @e36991

I shall definitely be featuring more questions in the near future, interesting and insightful submissions - the connection between and order of Spirit, Soul and Body with their respective roles and how God comes into the setup is no doubt intriguing. and thanks for the clarification on conscience and morals

I'd love to hear from Jesoul too

@mazaje ka manta da maganan. If it has remained a mystery this long why would it be revealed now?

My appreciation for those who stayed up late to make a contribution. it speaks volumes.

To quote my petulant colleague who nearly dozed off at my desk reading this thread

It is a simple matter to discuss too seriously, why do you figure kids who go to church have a better chance of staying out of trouble than those who do not?

I shall deal with him when he exhibits such rare moments of presumption

@Mudley313 and @mantraa
I used the Christian God and Muslim Allah for popular reasons but for me, it matters not which Religion or Faith/Belief-system, each has its Commandments to guide its followers on what is Right and What is Wrong. As much as I'd hate to admit, The "Gods" have a pervading influence on the Morality of Man, be it Christianity, Islam or Judaism that despite cultural/social/psychological evolution well over 1000 yrs, we are still faced with a moral dilemma - is the rise in moral decadence we see in today's society as a result of a departure from God's Law or as a result of keeping it? it seems we are doomed to moral imperfection no matter how enlightened and knowledgeable we become.

@e36991

that the crux of the whole matter had nothing to do with the moral but rather with faith (i.e. belief)

Please hold that thought. I shall be back in a few minutes

@JeSoul

Can an action be considered morally wrong by us humans, but from God's perspective, not? or is there is a middle ground? or in other words, is our moral scale also the same as God's? Can God sanction a morally wrong action? if yes, why would He? would it then be justified because the order came from God? Parts of the Law/commandments/OT present us with these problems.

I am in agreement with that; naturally our moral scale is different in character but similar in nature to God's and yes God has sanctioned morally wrong actions (now that is unsettling) Why would he? It is difficult to fathom the purpose behind his behavior so i cannot in all honesty give you an objective answer on that. but see quote below on why it is a problem for me.

Chronicles 21:15
"And God sent an angle into Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the Lord beheld, and HE REPENTED HIM OF THE EVIL, and said to the angel that destroyed, "It is enough, stay now thine hand." And the angel of the Lord stood by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite."

If I can accept a God of Absolutes then he cannot be seen to be hesitant in his disposition to Right and Wrong, If he is Relative then his ways are not Unchanging. which will negate the concept of his Eternalness. I understand much has changed since the Jesus Souls Repurchase arrangement.

@e36991

that the crux of the whole matter had nothing to do with the moral but rather with faith (i.e. belief)

Interesting, this brings a new perspective to my initial thoughts on the issue. God's Commandments represent His Moral Standards (his WILL is LAW) and if we are to live according to his will, we must uphold them totally (no slacking or slouching). After the Fall of Man, it became a daunting task to uphold his WILL perfectly thus the natural instinctive attraction to building personal (individual) and social morals (code of ethics and belief systems). I guess we can mostly agree that this has failed (woefully).

Curiously, even among religious folk, it is more likely to express morally right actions to people you feel some kinship with than those you do not and to apply morals based on situations rather than as a Standard.

It brings me back to my moral dilemma, God's Law has not enhanced Man's morals when Man does not (apparently) have the liver to uphold it. How do we get past this impediment.

JeSoul:
I like the way you put that.
I'd like to comment on the above, but before that, might I ask a question or two. Suppose a particular action was considered moral 1000yrs ago, but is now considered immoral today - could both perspectives have been right? apt and proper for their circumstance? depending on the time/culture/available knowledge/dispensation?

This is not a trick or trap question, I'm just really seeking your thoughts on that. Thanks.

Well, actions at the start can be seen as Morally Right but subsequently proven as Morally Wrong, (I think it becomes suspect if actions are proven as Morally Wrong only to be later re-proven as Morally Right) but IMHO I think there is a difference between what is Morally Right (Like do not willfully take another man's life) and what is Morally Acceptable (Take another man's life in times of war)

But to address your question specifically, i will draw on an experience i had in my teen years when 2LiveCrew release unabashedly immoral (they raised sexually explicit rap lyrics to a new level of nastiness) songs with appropriately lewd lyrics. it ultimately caused an outrage to the point that "As Nasty As They Wanna Be" was soooo profane and obscene that Courts in some states ruled against selling the album and actually arrested owners record stores that did.

Fast-forward 20 years and HipHop "Artistes" are doing far worse with profanity, sexually explicitly explicit (as-in real-deal explicit obscene) and are winning awards and recording enormous sales worldwide. The same society that Banned such music is now comfortable enough to see it as Morally Acceptable (Not Morally Right). The Content, Meaning and Value of the songs have not changed one bit from 20 years ago, but most people are no longer shocked and actually listen to it without prejudice. Once an action is considered Morally Wrong, it can come to general Moral Acceptance later but it still does not change the fact that it is Morally Wrong.

Morally Wrong actions can become the norm if it is supported by  (God's or Society's) Law or the absence of it. Morally Right actions tend to be established through knowledge and enlightenment.

You must forgive me, I just read through my post and it is not a neat knit (black and white) but there you have it.

e36991:
@ ^^^

There was a law (i.e. Thou shall not eat of the , ) before the 10 commandments.
The 10 commandments were a "means to an end"
As it were the 10 commandments is/was  "the schoolmaster" ,
Those that have "come of age" have no need of the schoolmaster ,
- "Won ti yege , won ti ja kankan" literally means they have shown themselves approved ,
For the kind people that the Isralites were (i.e. Stiff-necked) one surely needs the commandments on stone before they revert no one told me ,
This will do for now, can't post much - on a train and the carriage is swaying ,

Accepted! The Law is a Means to an End, I reason that it does not change the quality of what is Morally Right once the End is attained (unless it was implicitly Morally Wrong to begin with), don't you agree?

toneyb:
Interesting topic, I have studied the evolution of human morality and I can categorically say that humans learn morality, they learn what is good and what is bad from experience and they often experiment.

JeSoul:
Nice topic.

As you astutely note, we do not "need" God to tell us what is morally right or wrong, and I believe this is so because we already have a moral compass inherently built in us by which we can use to calibrate our motives and measure the morality of a action -
. . . though sometimes it is not always black and white on what is right or wrong. God's laws are written on our hearts, and the way I see it, it also doesn't hurt to have them also written on paper or should I saw stone.

Thanks guys for offering at least one point of agreement from two perspectives. Humans are inherently Moral or Immoral and this is learned from experience, whether God has a hand in it or not, our Sense of Morality originates from us individually or as a Society Consensus. (Man-made Principles Doctrines, Laws etc)

The issue of Morality troubles me on a personal level for the fact that some conflicting (with Human morals i.e) God-given instructions from Holy Books over a thousand years old still hold sway in present-day society where Man has outgrown common misconceptions of tradition that established the moral values in the ancient past. (specifically Christian and Islamic injunctions) From available History, Man took the FIRST Step towards Morality and perhaps through painful experiments in human nature, established Golden Moral Values we see today.

I shall (think it safe to) assume nearly everyone (Muslims, Christians, Atheists, Pagans, Traditionalists and Free-thinkers) is at least familiar with the 10 Commandments of Bible Literature (even if some may not know each one by instruction)

I shall summarize for the purpose of brevity; the 10 Commandments is a list of religious and moral imperatives that, (according to the Hebrew Bible) were given by God to the Israelite from Mount Sinai or Horeb. an inscription on two stone tablets which God wrote with his finger and gave to Moses. The 10 Commandments are recognized as a moral foundation in Judaism and Christianity.

The 10 Commandments declare the Lord, who brought the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt, to be God; prohibit having other gods before the Lord, and making or worshiping idols; threaten punishment for those who reject the Lord and promise love for those who love him; forbid misuse of the Lord's name; demand observance of the Sabbath and honoring one's parents; prohibit killing, adultery, theft, false testimony, and coveting of one's neighbor's goods.

That said, Did God write the 10 Commandments and why would he need to? we are clearly told that the Fallen Man (Adam and Eve) possessed the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Conscience or Still Small Voice) and basically had the framework for a guiding sense of Morality. Why did God not give them such Laws? Must Morality be derived from God? is the responsibility to determine what is right and wrong a function of God's Divine Law? are our actions Morally Right or Wrong because God says so? Do we need a Law-Maker and a Law-Giver to know what is Morally Wrong or Right.

When I look at similar 10 commandments of Allah, it still bears the same obviously simple concepts of Morality that even non-Muslims and non-Christians can agree with.

Do we need God to tell us what is Morally Right and Wrong? in such Strict Terms?

Thank you for your time

OMG!!! I have been swindled. I just bought a special pass to come a view this mermaid privately and also get a piece to enhance my JazZ, cehi! Nigerians will not send me to mental home

@Enigma, thanks for the clarification (and the links to interesting threads)

Enigma:
You don't know how much I absolutely agree with this!  There are many many things and times that I would much prefer to discuss with just professing Christians ---- whatever denomination. It is all well and good having atheists, deists, satanists, sciolists parading as "intellectuals" and whatnot (they are entitled to their own positions), it is another thing when they constantly excreta on what could have been edifying discussions among Christians.

I have a variety of ideas for several threads on discussions among Christians but find it hard convincing myself that it is worthwhile to put them up.


EDIT PS It is of course up to the site's owner and his "staff" whether to have a separate Christian section; I am not particularly advocating one; I would just rather discuss some things with Christians only.

@Enigma

Nairaland is a forum (a public meeting or assembly for open discussion)for enlightening discussions, A forum that aim to Reveal rather than compel-by-argument. or obscure, or confuse. (not that Christian threads do so intentionally) The proverbial "Christian Brother" is meant to throw an Open Question (with an open mind) rather than a half-answered question with preferred line of reasoning (Bible Scripture only)

I am yet to see a popular (Front-page) Christian Post that is opened clearly for the purpose of Revelation (Knowledge, Understanding, Wisdom). rather what goes on is that the "Christian" poster has a position in mind which is (more times than not) a traditional (dogmatic) understanding or interpretation of scripture and is simply using Nairaland as a platform to extend Sunday Sermons or presenting a theme in the Bible. there is nothing wrong with that, however when you present a theme of scripture you should be ready for part of your audience to disagree with the Content, Purpose and Clarity (It is only natural) of your presentation. This is where the problem lies. It no longer becomes a discussion on a level field but an argument which attracts Atheists, Satanists, Muslims, Okada-riders, Agric-Scientists and Bulk-SMS resellers into the fray.

My humble suggestion for you is this. (you can choose to disagree if you so please)

There are purely "Christian" themes that a lot of Christan brethren do not fully grasp as regards their understanding of the Scripture. Think of it like a Bible Class and you will definitely attract Christian Folk, When you decide to hold Bible Scripture against popular philosophy, then you are calling other folks out to "Test" the credibility of your argument.

A common trend is that "Professing Christians" tend to discuss Philosophy from a Biblical perspective (the answer to life's questions based purely on Emotion, Faith and Tradition) rather than discussing the Bible from a Philosophical perspective. - how does the Bible address Life's questions(Revealing Truth through Reasoning)

The precise way in which Reason differs from Emotion, Faith, and Tradition is controversial, because all three are considered to be both potentially rational, and potentially in conflict with Reason.

I do not aim to argue but to understand through Reason. If you (Christians) are averse to Reason then it is only natural that Christian threads will  derail (as they often do on Nairaland) and Meaningful Value and Opportunity for Enlightenment (perhaps spiritual change) is lost in insults, hate and agenda-driven dispositions.

The strength in Faith cannot be supported by Hope alone but must be proven beyond reasonable doubt (As with all Doubting Thomases, Jesus proved our Faith with his wounds)

Perhaps this is cue NFF's time is long-overdue

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/africa/9264548.stm

Fraud squad raids Ghana FA base

Ghanaian football faces an uncertain future after an anti-corruption unit raided the country's FA (GFA) headquarters on Tuesday.

Members of Ghana's Economic and Serious Crime Unit prevented officials from leaving or entering the premises in Accra as they searched for documents.

The officers, who arrived with a court-backed search warrant, removed mobile phones and computers from the building.

Fifa takes a dim view of governmental interference in an FA's administration.

The world governing body has suspended several countries for such behaviour in the past.

In response to the three-hour closure of the building, which prevented staff from working on Tuesday, the GFA's Executive Committee has called an emergency meeting for Wednesday.

Some of the computers removed belonged to GFA President Kwesi Nyantakyi and his secretary, as well as the General Secretary and other major offices within the association.

GFA spokesperson Randy Abbey explained that the officers wanted to examine documents relating to sponsorship agreements between the GFA and various corporate bodies.

Abbey also explained that the Economic and Serious Crime Unit had written to the GFA in October to request the details, with the GFA responding by saying that the timeframe was too short.

The move comes a week after Fifa warned the Ghanaian government of potential sanctions should it continue to interfere in the administration of the country's football.

Having investigated claims of intrusion, Fifa understands that Ghanaian football has been subject to governmental pressure over recent issues.

One such example was the government's attempt - since rescinded - to impose Abedi Pele as a candidate for a vacant Confederation of African Football despite the GFA's rejection of the idea.

Hmmmmn, has his Miracle Expired before the expiry date or did he get confirmed China Miracle rather than Original German Miracle

I do not understand the controversy really  is being GAY a lot more SINFUL than being a MURDER or THIEF or SINNER? how come it is easier for Christians to Accept a Murder, Thief or SINNER in the House of God but not GAYS. are they not all SINNERS? (According to the Bible) so why the Hypocrisy! If you cannot accept GAYS in the House of God, then get rid of Corrupt Politicians, Ritualists, 419ners, Tithing-Thieves and Hookers from the House of God. Christians have a Phobia for GAYS but will dig all other kinds of Sinners even though God measures each equally, how pathetic 

It is time Africa accepts that the White Man's Religion accepts Homosexuals and Lesbians as part and parcel of God's Flock. why are we hesitant

The guy is just old skull, these days you do not talk, you simply go over to the bar and flash your wallet (ladies are programmed to react to an opened wallet), accidentally revealing the fake dollar bills and buy yourself a shot of the most expensive spirit while ordering the same for your friend. ease back with your elbows on bar top allowing your masculine perfume to waft into their nostrils as you remind your friend that Nigeria has changed a lot Na waoo oh!!  

Nobody will tell the Vamps that new blood is in the area as they sharpen their fangs and go in for the kill. little do they know that they are dealing with a voracious vampire-blood-sucking werewolf  

I only sin when I am sober

@OP, obviously, your BF is of no use to you other than sapping your hard-earned money, can i be your new boy-friend (pretty please)