Nezan:

@Littleb:

A grown up man lusted over a small baby of six years and you try to justify it with culture? I hope you are married? Give your baby to a 50 year old man in marriage, yeye boy

I dont think you married either. Let me remind you, the first man, Adam, his children did married one another, I think you can do the same now. Look around one of your immediate sister! think! how perfect it is?

noetic2:

another pointless rant.

but muslims agree on paedophilia, suicide bombing, temporary marriage and killings. . . .  ,  uhmn 

[size=16pt]You are to ridiculous and full of hatred. Where does Islam preaches pedophile, suicide bombing etc?
Why so much confusing people. If you dont have anything meaningful to contribute, why can't you just hold hand off the keyboard?
There are many questions you've raised and diligently answered. Upon answering your question, you turn it out and misrepresenting it informally.

please and please, where are here not for child play. We share whatever you belief and if you have a proof against us,  present it and we discuss it.

Thanks.

[/size]

Why you people are so much full of propaganda. Marrying young girls was a cultural thing and was not started with Islam. It has been existing, very common amongst the Jewish society to marry young girls when they either had their first periods or their breasts start showing off. Mary, Jesus mother was one of examples.

Aisha's age when married to prophet Muhammad was revealed in several various hadiths. Some says 9, 12, 14 and 17. The same way the age of Mary, Jesus mother was reported ambiguously. In non biblical sources, Mary was between 11-14 years old when she conceived Jesus. Secondly, Mary had already been betrothed to Joseph at much younger age. When she first arranged with him probably she was between 7 and 9 years old.

According to the priest of Saint Mary's Catholic church, Mary was approximately 14 years old when she got pregnant with Jesus.
According to the "Oxford Dictionary Bible" commentary, Mary was 12 years old when she became impregnated.

We muslims never think or call Joseph a Child Molester, nor would we refer to the "Holy Ghost" of the Bible, that "Impregnated" Mary as a "Rapist" or "Adulterer". Moreso, we never be so much silly by saying that Mary was psychologically and emotionally devastated for getting pregnant at a very young age. And speaking of "child molesting", since most Christians believe that Jesus is the Creator of this universe, then why did God allow himself to enter life through a 12-year old young girl's vagina? We never clinch and be so much parochial by thinking that how could mary parent gave her for marriage at so much younger age.

Additionally, prophet Muhammad marraige to Aisha was in no means represent any act of pandephole coz it was a cultural thing widely suported by people and her parents. Aisha parents willingly gave her to prophet for marriage. A typical pandephile will always have his way towards young girls. Ascribing such to prophet Muhammad is quite an absurds which we muslims will never be crazy on such a childish accusation towards Mary, the Jesus Mother.

There are lot of references that the said artist actually reverted to Islam. Amongst the refs is where his brother confirmed it. If indeed he reverted, it is for his soul and may Allah, Almighty forgives his shortcommings. Testifying with shaadah signifies the first thing in conversion follows by gradual learning which accordingly he did according to all claims.

There are four types of people in this world who enter a conversation/ discussion:
1. One who knows not, and himself knows he knows not, is a student. Teach that person.
2. One who knows, and others know he knows, is a teacher. Learn from that person.
3. One who knows, and himself knows not that he knows, is humble. Encourage him.
4. One who knows not, and himself knows not that he knows not, is stupid. Avoid that person.
In any dialogue keep these in mind, and you shall be guided to productive discourses.
    - Imam Shafii

The Prophet (PBUH) said : " For he who always seeks forgiveness of Allah, Allah will relieve him from all adversities, make a way out for him from hardships and provide him from a means which he could never have expected." (Nasaa'i).

noetic2:

Thats my list. Do u agree?

Why should I agree? You asked question that its answer is right there with you.

is that how u convert people to worship allah?

Just answer yes or no.

noetic2:

Do u agree to the list of characteristics?

I think you mention some, complete them then I will respond.

is this not plain STUPID? is this how u convert people to islam? by showing them a koran verse? this is RIDICULOUS.

produce the verse that says mohammed will go to paradise, if at all it exists.

It could be stupid as unbeliever. Will you be a muslim if I tell you?

noetic2:

I just want us to reach a consensus on these characteristics of a tyrant.

Do u agree that some of them are
1. profound wickedness against weak and defenceless people.
2. impunity and excessive abuse of power
3. inhumaneness.

Countinue. People would like read more!

please dont play any of this intellectually bankrupt games with me. I should become a muslim because u used google to produce verse from ur koran? INCREDIBLE.

produce the verse where allah promised mohammed paradise.

Answer my question. I see you as a lost man. You need help. Will you be a muslim?

Prophet Muhammad, prior to his Prophethood, he opposed injustices in his community, he defend the helpless and restore usurped rights to their owners. He was so trusted to extent of being calling him the most truthful and trusworthy. Despite the moral corruption in his community, he lived an extraordinarily chaste and perfectly disciplined life. There was no trace of sexual immorality in his life. Most paedophic had traces of sexual immorality in their youth age. Considering marriage to Aisha supported by the whole communities and bride parents, at young age, the same way Mary(Jesus mother) was given to Joseph at young age is an absurd and insult to divinity. Whoever inclined to such belief is an unbliever, never a Jesus followers. What a lost fellow!

@noetic:

Please state specific characteristics that makes one a tyrant.

Once again, for you to get it clear. Check the characterisitcs of Pharao.

Did allah state why?

Allah does not tired not to think of he would rest. He never tell us the reason he created heaven and earth six days. However, we keep on asking, since he is supernatutural, why can't He created everything in a day! Apply the same principle!

First and foremost, mohammed is NOT a prophet. a prophet does miracles and makes prophecies. mohammed did NONE.
Jesus is also not a prophet. He is GOD who lived in human body.

You didn't get it Muhammad was a prophet like Moses and jesus. They brought a message that your God is one and not three in one. They perform miracles and not advertising miracles like christian fake prophets. Major signifiant of thier miracles is their message from thier Lord almighty.
Jesus is not God and never claim he was. God doesn't eat nor sleep.

Does the koran or haddith ever mention the fate of mohammed with allah?

Allah counts His prophets amongst who submitted to Him and he promised them paradise. If I give you Quran verse, will you become muslim?

noetic2:

whats the meaning of this NONSENSE?

you are fast developing a dishonest reputation. how many times have these been proved on this forum? if u dont know that mohammed was involved in a paedophile act, then u probably need to consult ur scholars for more teachings.

You are very wrong. Define pedophile. Go through the jewish history. How mature could a girl be for her to be given out for marriage? You need proper training on history and culture first. Then, we check your bible to find out what is depicted as pedophile.

@noetic2:

1. What is tyranny by islamic definition? what actions or inactions are qualified to be called tyrant?

For your best understanding. Tyrant ruler in Islam is just the same it was established in the Bible.Read the story of Belshazzar, son of Nebuchadnezzar that God put off his kingdom when attempt to drink with Giblets used to perform ablution ion the temple. Also, read through the life of Pharao. Those are the sexamples of a tyrant ruler.

2. Why would mohammed be the one to plea for people before they enter paradise?

Allah says he would be allowed as an intercessor.

3. what is the fate of mohammed himself with allah?

 

Muhammad was a prophet like Moses, Jesus and Abraham. Their fate is with Allah alone, they are His bondsmen. He promised them paradise.

noetic2:

Actually I was going to ask just that. cos ur reasons are not tenable when juxtaposed with other religious beliefs.

Please stop living in IGNORANCE, mohammed's inactions are NOT beyond human reasoning.

Aisha was a 6 year old girl, who mohammed had sex with at 9. he denied her a childhood and psychologically abused her, even her father protested.
And what EXACTLY makes mohammed a prophet, not to talk of a holy prophet?

Muhammad was a prophet like Jesus,Moses and Abraham. You should ask yourself if you have evidence to support your claim. Aisha was given to prophet Muhammad tha same way Mary, Jesus mother was given to joseph.

@neotic

noetic2:

All of this is RIDICULOUS and EVASIVE.

If there is anything ridicule, it should be from your part. You don't belief in what I belief. You ask many questions which were answered in the best sincerity and truth, however you disingenuously transform to your intended propaganda.

why is forgiveness a big deal to allah? why does the victim have to go through the punishment at all? why should one's hand be amputated in the first instance? why is forgiveness not an option to allah?

There is forgiveness which you will never understand, cos your mind is block with impurities. Allah says in many verses that he forgives sins. Amputation is related to the punishment of a criminals the same you have criminal laws in the bible. Punishment is to deter others from engaging in such devilish acts, thereby making an Islamic environment free of crime. Where such laws is being used is forever peaceful.

Tell me if you are sincere where in the world there is no crime penal codes as oppose to your belief?

You are fast emulating olabowale. when asked a simple question, he responds with 1000 words without answering the question asked. This is intellectually unhealthy.

Even when responded with a word you will never get satisfied coz you have your mind set on the question.

noetic2:

This is simply called medicine after death.

u posted an haddith and I asked u questions, which u answered. from ur answers we both reached sufficient conclusions and deductions. Once again I repeat my own submissions.

Quote my statement that indicate a submission to your view.

1. The haddith claimed that knowledge will diminish because learned scholars will die.
On further observation, we established that islamic knowledge is usually passed from one (old) scholar to another (new or younger) scholar by education. This makes it impossible for islamic knowledge to diminish since knowledge will be continuously transmitted to new scholars by educating them.


2. The haddith claimed that religious ignorance will prevail in the end times. I asked u to define ignorance, u defined it as disregard for islamic laws.
On further analysis, we established that only non-muslims and muslims who have seen the truth away from islam are the ones that could possibly ignore islamic laws. To further emphasise this I asked u "if my refusal to kill, annihilate, destroy, amputate, flog and behead others at the instruction of allah amounts to ignorance?" u refused to answer.

Since it is only possible for non-muslims and apostates to disregard islamic law, and since these people EXISTED during the era of mohammed, when this prophecy was made, it is as such safe to state that this prophecy is again FALSE.

3. The haddith claimed that sexual immorality will be prominent during the last days.
I believe we both know and understand the underlying components of sexual immorality, one of which is temporary marriage.
I also produced an haddith that established that mohammed INDEED endorsed temporary marriages for muslims and it is still practised today by the sunnis. As such we can safely state that sexual immorality existed during mohammed's era and he approved of it.

Since mohammed endorsed this sexual immorality, the prophecy of the haddith does not stand because sexual immorality existed and was rampant even in mohammed's days. This prophecy is also FALSE.

I believe that this is an honest assessment and analysis of the haddith.

So, you are short of response! The conversation is too heavy, lo! I m not bothered if my response is not useful to you. But I am very sure many intelligent and sincere people will read it in future that will make different in their understandings.

PS. Why did u ignore my questions on ur other haddith?

I never once ignore any of your question.

The Apostle of Allah (PBH) said:

1. Before the Last Hour there will be commotions like pieces of a dark night
(Abu Dawood)
2. Before the Last Hour there will be commotions like pieces of a dark night in which a man will be a believer in the morning and an infidel in the evening, or a believer in the evening and infidel in the morning.
(Abu Dawood)

3. A time will come when a man will not care about how he gets things, whether lawful or unlawful.
(Bukhari)

@noetic2:

I dont think that u are being honest here. You posted an haddith that made 4 controversial prophecies.

1. The haddith claimed that knowledge will diminish because learned scholars will die.
On further observation, we established that islamic knowledge is usually passed from one (old) scholar to another (new or younger) scholar by education. This makes it impossible for islamic knowledge to diminish since knowledge will be continuously transmitted to new scholars by educating them.

This prophecy of the haddith is therefore FALSE.

The Hadith is not false. The hadith does not basicalliy counting the numbers of people who read Quran or performing salat. Scholars are meant to be leaders and God fearing people, apparently when lesser people are being trained towards such leadership while the old trusted ones will continuously dying, and that the essence of my expalantion with another similar hadith. Such fear of God will continuously declining untill no more one will remain.  The quoted hadith was surported with several other ones which are part of the signs of last hour. Muslims will decline in terms of being God fearing scholars(ie those who are potential leaders) by engaging in worldly lust and affection while God fearing ones will diminsihing through death. There is what we called science of hadith, equivalently expalining the analysis of hadith with another hadith probably with different isnaad(chain of narations). In several occasions when prophet Muhammad was telling the sahabah about the future of Islam and muslims in general especially related to end times. Many of the sahabah were willing to ask questions in order to establish the falidity of the hadith, meanwhile they found answers in another hadith with different isnaad.

I will quoted the following hadith which actually might be a response to what you intend to know about the original hadith.


1.Near the establishment of the Hour there will be days during which (religious) knowledge will be taken away (vanish) and general ignorance will spread…
(Bukhari)

2. There will come a time for my people when there will remain nothing of the Qur’an except its outward form and nothing of Islam except its name and they will call themselves by this name even though they are the people furthest from it.
(Agreed upon)

3.The Prophet said, despite the fact that the Qur’an will be read, the knowledge and wisdom it contains will not be considered. This is another sign of the time of the End Times.
There will come a time upon the Ummat when people will recite the Qur’an, but it will not go further than their throats,(into their hearts).
(Bukhari)

And lastly to clear what you might get wrong from the hadith:

4. Allah’s Messenger spoke of something and said:"It will happen when knowledge will be no more.“(Ziyad) said:“Allah’s Messenger, how will knowledge vanish despite the fact that we will be reciting the Qur’an and teaching its recitation to our children and our children will teach its recitation to their children up to the Day of Resurrection?” Thereupon he (the Prophet (saas)) said:“Ziyad, do these Jews and Christians not recite the Torah and the Bible but not act according to what is contained in them?”
(Ahmad, Ibn Majah, Tirmidhi)
It is a sign of the End Times that some Muslims will follow the example of heretical Jews and Christians and imitate them blindly.
The Prophet (saas) said,“Surely you will follow the ways, of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e. inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a lizard, you too would follow them,” We said,“O Allah’s Messenger! Do you mean the Jews and the Christians?” He replied,“Whom else?”
(Bukhari)

I think you can draw an inference from the last hadith. If you still not satisfied, then produce yours and lets people read.

2. The haddith claimed that religious ignorance will prevail in the end times. I asked u to define ignorance, u defined it as disregard for islamic laws.
On further analysis, we established that only non-muslims and muslims who have seen the truth away from islam are the ones that could possibly ignore islamic laws. To further emphasise this I asked u "if my refusal to kill, annihilate, destroy, amputate, flog and behead others at the instruction of allah amounts to ignorance?" u refused to answer.

When hadith says ignorance will prevail it never stated anything like your phrase "if my refusal to kill, annihilate, destroy, amputate, flog, ". Your question carry a disngenious notion, I only give a ref of Islamic laws probably you might be sincere. If you present part of the hadith that related such I will answer you. If you agree that scholars are meant to be potential leaders. If we equaly agree that scholars will decrease in number till there will be none, then who will be the leader if not amongst the ignoramuses? The hadith further stated the leadership will be a relgious ignorant person who will not judge from anything other than from his personal lust.

Since it is only possible for non-muslims and apostates to disregard islamic law, and since these people EXISTED during the era of mohammed, when this prophecy was made, it is as such safe to state that this prophecy is again FALSE.

Where do you get this from? No proof, no explanation. Who are those apostate and non muslims in the time of prophet, give names and ref, otherwise you are a liar and dishonest on your part!

3. The haddith claimed that sexual immorality will be prominent during the last days.
I believe we both know and understand the underlying components of sexual immorality, one of which is temporary marriage.
I also produced an haddith that established that mohammed INDEED endorsed temporary marriages for muslims and it is still practised today by the sunnis. As such we can safely state that sexual immorality existed during mohammed's era and he approved of it.

Since mohammed endorsed this sexual immorality, the prophecy of the haddith does not stand because sexual immorality existed and was rampant even in mohammed's days. This prophecy is also FALSE.

I believe that this is an honest assessment and analysis of the haddith.

And that your belief is parochial flourish with inadequacy on the knowledge of hadiths. Additionally, you quoted a verse of the Quran and transformed it to temporary marraige. I ask you which tafsir or which scholars of Islam interprete the verse of the qran you quoted signifies temporary marraige? Also, from the hadith you quoted, I gave another hadith that forbids temporary marriage before prophet demise which you denied. I want a proof from your side that indicate that after being declared haram forever, shows another hadith that allows it.

On my analysis on temporary marraige:

1. The temporary marraige was allowed in the early stage of muslims when people who were used to adultery could not be tottaly commanded to stop.
2. I gave a similar case of alcohol how it was stopped by Allah as depicted in the Quran
3. Another hadith was narrated afterwards as a direct statement from the prophet that temprorary marraige has been made Haram(forbiden) forever.

It is highly dishonest and ignorance of the highest order to lay claim to the previous hadith as a cover that temporary marriage is allow in Islam. Execpt ibn Abass on his opinnion amongst sahabah after prophet Muhammad demise authorise temporary marraige on hardship condition, however when he noted that people engaging in it without necesity he withdrews his opinnion. This oppinion was subjected to when some sunnis think it can still be done.

From the lips of ibn Abbass:
1. "Temporary marriage was at the beginning of Islam. A man comes by a town where he has no acquaintances, so he marries for a fixed time depending on his stay in the town, the woman looks after his provisions and prepares his food, until the verse was revealed: "Except to your wives or what your right hands possess." Ibn 'Abbas explained that any relationship beyond this is forbidden." [narrated by Tirmizy]

2.Abu Huraira said: "the Messenger of Allah (may Peace Be Upon Him) had forbidden or abolished temporary marriage, its marriage and its divorce, its waiting period, and its inheritance." [narrated by DarQutny, Ishaq Bin Rahwiya, and Ibn Habban]

3. Ibn Umar said: "When  Ali  was given the Caliphate, he thanked Allah Most High and praised Him and said: 'O people, the Messenger of Allah (may Peace Be Upon Him) had permitted temporary marriage three times then forbade it. I swear by Allah, ready to fulfil my oath, that if I find any person who engages in temporary marriage without having ratified this with a proper marriage, I will have him lashed 100 stripes unless he can bring two witnesses to prove that the Messenger (may Peace Be Upon Him) had permitted it after forbidding it.' " [Ibn Majah]

and lastly for those who follow ibn Abass:

4. Mohammad Bin 'Abdullah Bin Numayr said: "My father had narrated to us according to 'Ubaidullah according to Ibn shahab according to Alhassan and 'Abdullah the sons of Mohammad Bin 'Ali according to their father according to  'Ali (r.a.a.)  that he heard Ibn 'Abbas (r.a.a.) being lenient towards temporary marriage, so he said, 'wait Ibn 'Abbas, the Messenger of Allah (may Peace Be Upon Him) had forbidden it on the day of Khaybar when he also prohibited the meat of domestic camels.' "

I belief all these refs expose the dark side of your analysis! However, if you still hold to what you belief I want more ref to support your claim! When you are satisfy, I have a question for you, when you ready to take my question let me know.

1. "Abu Hurairah narrated that the Messenger, of Allah (peace
be on him) said, I will not be a witness for two types of people who
are destined for the Fire: people with whips, like the tails of cows,
who beat the people (i.e., tyrannical rulers who are the enemies of
their own people), and women who, although clothed, are yet naked,
seducing and being seduced, their hair styled like the tilted humps
of camels. These will not enter the Garden nor will its fragrance
even reach them, although its fragrance reaches a very great
distance. (Reported by Muslim.) "

2. "Among those who are cursed by Allah and His angels, both in this
world and in the Hereafter, the Prophet (peace be on him) has
mentioned the man whom Allah has made a male but who becomes
effeminate by imitating women, and a woman whom Allah has made a
female but who becomes masculinized by imitating men. (Reported by al-
Tabarani.) "

noetic2:

This is false.

There is nowhere, the haddith implied any of the above.

Common littleb, we have been through this several times on this forum.

This has no connection or relation with the haddith. We have both established, that these prophecies are both UNREALISTIC and FALSE.

This has nothing to do with beliefs but with the validity of ur haddith prophecies. They are baseless and false.

ur question is irrelevant.

We have both established that sexual immorality was prevalent in mohammed's era. As such the haddith prophecy is FALSE and baseless.

After the clear explanation of the hadeeth has came to you, it is left with your inner mind set either to belief or not. There is no temporary marraige in Islam. No sexual immorality. You and I know where in the world sexual immorality is prevalent amongst the tose who consider bedroom dress as public attires. It is Islam which came to liberate people from all sexual immoralities by physically, mentally and spiritually displaying degree of high moral standards.
You claim the hadeeth is false but you couldn't justify its falsefulness. Why do you always transform the truth on the notion of hatred. You claim Muhammad propagate sexual immorality when you can read it that there are laws against fornication and adultery. I encourage you to better open your mind to realize the truth before it is too late!

Since you dont understand the comparision, I will take pain to use analogy, thus:

and we both agreed that knowledge is transmitted by education . . . . . if the scholars die, would the knowledge they processed not have been transmitted to new scholars?

I believe that the prophecy in the haddith is very FALSE. we have both established that knowledge is transmittable by education, so by educating the next generation of scholars it is IMPOSSIBLE for religious knowledge to be taken away.
Nope.

The haddith simply implied that the teachers who are scholars, will die and as such knowledge will diminish. But since we have both established that islamic knowledge is transmitted from old scholar to new scholars by education, it is IMOSSIBLE for such knowledge to diminish.

The reduced in number of religious scholars is a similtude of pyramid heirachical nature with higest number of people in its base, the next people seeking for such knowledge will be lesser than the base poeple. Such is the diminishing till it reaches zero on top. When you think religious knowledge is not been taken away what happen if less people are seeking for such knowledge and what happen to the old knowledgible ones. Remember we are talkng about the last hour. Prophet said, the hours will not come untill there is no single knowlegible person again on the part of religious. Then, the ignorance will be a leader judging from his lust.   

u did not answer my question. would my refusal to kill, amputate, behead, ostracise and annihilate people at the commandment of allah be regarded to as ignorance?

I only explain to you what sharia holds on criminal laws. Shows me where God says you should behead, ostracise and anihilate people? Then, I would explain the ignorance that may result from not doing it.

U stated that people's disregard for the Quran and Haddith is regarded to as ignorance and I have established here that this disregard is either as a result of not being a muslim or as a result discovering the real truth of Christ. How then can any of these be regarded as islamic ignorance? cos this disregard has been in existence ever since mohammed founded islam . . .  .as such the prophecy in my opinion is also INVALID.

Then, you reserved your oppinion to yourself since you dont belief in what I belief. From believer perspective, since you dont accept my faith, then whatever I say will be INVALID to you. If someone is ignorance of Islamic knowledge and belief, then, definitely, he is an unbliever according to Islam.
These are the majority of people that will remain in the last part of the last hour. We muslims are encourage to pray not to remain till the period. Ignorant will be very prevalent, calamity and evildeeds will be so cheap to come by. Immorality will be very high. Women will be dressing nude. The calamities will be so much that even the believer will find ti hard to escape from it. In one of hadeeths, it reads that, the world will not come to an end untill no single person remains that will remember a verse from the Quran.

Also, true Muslims doesn't have any truth to discover in Jesus elsewhere, because Allah says Jesus was a muslim.

Here are my deductions from the verse.

1. Mohammed and subsequently allah condoned temporary marriages.
2. Mohammed probably allowed it for political correctness.
3. mohammed later disallowed it also for political correctness.
4. Sexual immorality of legendary status is prevalent in islam and an obvious disadvantage to the women folk.

I believe that the haddith I produced established that mohammed encouraged this sexual impunity, as such this prophecy is also invalid.
Sexual immorality existed right under the nose of mohammed.

Where do you get the hook up story and which tafsir explain the verse as temporary marraige?

I asked you a question. In the whole continents, where and amongst which communities and religious do you have high sexual immoralities and its trends?

You should asked @eina and not me. He should have searched well before opening a thread. That is why I request to present a case. Maybe it's something genuine differ from what we ve discussed.

I called it a propaganda when you haven't present  a case.

eina:

This is not intended to discredit islam but we need to seek the truth because only the truth will set us free from bondage. pls can you moslems fully expain why your religon involves so much violence in the name of expanding your faith and becoming a matyr? what concrete proof do you have to prove that allah expects you to use force to promote your ideas? why are you so intolerant of other religions? why should you extremists trample on human rights? you call non-moslems infidels and enemies of allah, but allah created the infidels himself. if actually non-moslems are the enemies of allah, why did allah create them? dont you think he should wipe them out himself? he doesnt need your cutlass, dagger and guns to do it. what makes you 100% SURE that your practices and ideas are absolutely approved by allah? since allah has chosen to remain silent for now lets have the situation this way. i think theres going to be a huge suprise when allah breaks his silence because thats when the real truth will emerge which might different from what you moslems think.

@eina:

Can you furnish me some evidence of your accusations where the muslims are using violence to preach Islam? Probably you may get some reasonable response.

@dexmond
God does not want us to burden ourself with his physical existence or what he is made of or the kind of eyes he has to see everything at the same time. We cant see God, hardly do we hear directly from him. Jesus had been seen by people, they hear from him his direct statement. There is no need to vacilate coz he came to confirm what was revealed before him in the book of moses. So, why the issue of Jesus being son, lord or God will then be ambiguous if not a conjections reflecting the handiwork of humans and not of God?

Moreso, take it as a duty to yourself by highlighten the real Jesus direct statement of the bible clearly indicate that jesus is nothing other than a messanger from God. Have you ever read it that Jesus reflect to people that there is only one God and Jesus whom you have sent. Then, who is greater, the one who gave order or whom was ordered?

@neotic2:

Since we both now understand that knowledge is learnt and transmittable by education,  . . . .how exactly does the prophecy in ur haddith get fulfilled, since new scholars are expected to learn from the old ones?  is this prophecy not INVALID? isnt it meaningless?

The prophecy is being fullfilled. Lets go through the hadeeth once again:

"Narrated `Abdullah bin `Amr bin Al−`As(rz): I heard Allah's Apostle (s.a.s) saying, "Allah does not take away the knowledge, by taking it away from (the hearts of) the people, but takes it away by the death of the religious learned men till when none of the (religious learned men) remains, people will take as their leaders ignorant persons who when consulted will give their verdict without knowledge. So they will go astray and will lead the people astray." (bukhari)"

Now, exercise patient to compare with another narration:

On the authority of Abu Hurairah (may Allah be pleased with him) who said that the Companions were sitting with the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) when a Bedouin came to the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) and asked him about the exact date of the Hour. The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) however proceeded with his speech to the audience. Some of the audience thought that the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) heard what the man said but disliked his question and some others thought that he did not hear it. When the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) finished his talk, he said: "Where is the one who asked about the date of the Hour? The man informed him of his existence. The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) then said: "If the trust is betrayed and neglected, then expect the coming of the Hour". The man further asked about the trust and how it can be wasted or betrayed. The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: "When the matter is entrusted to those who are unqualified to implement its duties, then wait for the Hour"

Now I asked you a question; what is the cognate relation between the two bold statement?

Analogy of seeking religious knowledge is similar to the way we learn from basic to high school. Knowledge is not about sitting down with one scholar, meaning when he dies there will be no continuation. The hadith is describing that people seeking for religious knowledge will reduced in number while the old knowledgible is diminishing via death.

ur answer to my question, reveals that the prophecy of the haddith is not valid. If people would not subscribe to the Quran and haddith, that should be because they are either non-muslims or muslims who have realised the very truth.

Take for instance. . . . The koran and haddith asks that I behead, amputate, kill, ostracise, annihilate people (muslims, non-muslims and apostates).
does my refusal to obey this inhuman doctrine amount to ignorance on my part?

In the first paragraph of your response actually is the revelation of how people will transformed the falsehood to be truth which is also part of the sign of last hour. From what you and I belief, there are lot of prophecies regarding the signs of last hour and one of them is that people will prefer to embrace falsehood than truth. So, if people could not subscribe to Quran and Hadith, clearly means they embrace thier shelfish desires which is nothing but falsehood.

Secondly, the commands to kill or amputate is not accorded except for the offendants after all avenue to commits such crime has been blocked through provision. Who will steal when he/she is provided with daily needs. Who will commits murder once he knows he would be killed instead. There are criminal laws everywhere, not only in Islam. Will you tell me according to your bible if nobody has ever being killed on Gods order? Even under common laws, does people not being sentence to death? Why are you concern about Islamic laws? Why cant you challenge the common laws? Have you ever travel to any Islamic countries where Sharia is being used judiciously, have you ever imagine how peaceful they are, even with all these laws?

lying is not allowed.

I am not telling you lies. You only need to reflect on what you read and not transforming it.

This marriage malady was permitted by mohammed.
While we were in an army, Allah's Apostle came to us and said, "You have been allowed to do the Mut'a (marriage), so do it." Salama bin Al-Akwa' said: Allah's Apostle's said, "If a man and a woman agree (to marry temporarily), their marriage should last for three nights, and if they like to continue, they can do so; and if they want to separate, they can do so." I do not know whether that was only for us or for all the people in general. Abu Abdullah (Al-Bukhari) said: 'Ali made it clear that the Prophet said, "The Mut'a marriage has been cancelled (made unlawful)."bukhari 062.052.

Follow me on this hadith:
"We were on expedition with meassange of Allah(PBH) and did not have our wives with us, so we asked him,'Shuld we not castrate ourselves?' He forbade us to do so but permitted us to contract marraige with a woman up to a specified date, giving her a garment as a dower(mahr)"

Temporay marraige provide a solution to the dilemma in which both the weak and the strong found themselves as in the case of the above hadith. Lets recall that there was a gradual course in prohibiting alcohol as this evil was widespread and deeply rooted in the arabian time of ignorance. In the same manner, prophet Muhammd(PBH) adopted a course of gradulaism in the matter of sex, at first permitting temporary marraige as a step leading away from fornication and adultery and at the same time coming closer to the parmanent marraige relationship. He then prohibited it aboslutely, as has been reported by Ali as in the hadeeth you quoted and many other companions.

Al-Juhani said, "Before leaving Makkah the messange of Allah(PBH) prohibited temporary marraige" in another version of the hadith, there is prophet words: "Allah has made it haram untill the Day of Ressurection"
In contrary, only Ibn Abbas hold that temporary can still be permitted under adverse condition. However, when he later saw people engaging in it without necessity, he withdrew his oppinion, reverse it in totality.

@neotic: Can you furnish me with more proof other than what I have explained regarding temporary marraige as you think it is still permitted by Islam and who amongst the muslims sect projecting it as Halal?

(Shakir): "And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) God's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely God is Knowing, Wise."

Can you tell me your insinuation from this verse?

The whole essence of referring u to the temporary marriage is to establish that sexual immoral decadence existed right from the time of mohammed, in the islamic era of allah.
since this decadence has existed right from mohammed's era, dont u consider this haddith prophecy to be invalid?

Prophet Muhammad met the impurities on the part of arabian and left them as pure being with no fornication and adultery. In the whole continents, where and amongst which communities, religious do you have high sexual immoralities and its trends?

noetic2:

This is disgraceful.

Where exactly did either allah or mohammed showed forgiveness to anyone? in what cases is forgiveness applicable?


what happened to amputation, beheading, flogging, jihading and killing of apostates?


what was ur question again?

why dont u just show me where allah showed forgiveness in ur koran, since u claim he is forgiving? You must have a reasoning capacity equivalent to an slowpoke for suggesting that I join islam. . . . . .of all the ills and EVIL of islam revealed on this forum, which of them have u ever refuted? me join islam? for what?

what laws do u think?

Can you read your response to yourself? I provided you details from Quran. While cant you flourish me with your own points rather than repetition of the same questions.

I m expecting response from you regarding:

1. Where in the world does criminals are accorded free movement without being punished.
2. Which laws Jesus came to fulfilled according to your bible?

Thanks for the confidence you place in me on your questions, I would try and answer your questions in my knowledge capacity.

noetic2:

Thank you.
The religious learned men, how did they obtain their own knowledge? what stops others from obtaining this knowledge just as they got theirs?

Learning in Islam has not changed since first day of Islamic calender. There are Hadiths where the prophet MUhammad stated angel Gabriel was his teacher and he is in turn the  teacher to his followers(sahabah). Also, the sahabah were teachers of all other followers. So the knowledge continue spreading.

can u define ignorance, in the context of this haddeth?

Ignorance will prevail is very clear in the third hadith. Few people will be seeking for religious knowledge  while the most learned religious men will be diminished in number. People will much more relying on what someone says rather than reading it from book Quran and Hadith. And when people start judging not from book is relatively a prevalent ignorance of the last hour.

is temporary marriage in islam not considered as open illegal sexual intercourse in ur opinion?

Temporary marraige used to be arabian practices before Islam. It was still permitted in the earlier stage of Islam while on expedition with the prophet as it was difficult to disengage the arabian from what they used to at ago, it was later pronounced forever forbidden by the prophet, similar case is the issue of alcohol

noetic2:


Littleb, I love this haddeth u posted. can I ask u some questions?

Your questions are always welcome, even when you don't seek for permission. Islam welcome you always, just be sincere.

@neotic2:

Can you respond to that if you hold the truth about Jesus without derailing the thread.

noetic2:

whats this supposed to mean?

Ask your pastor, didn't you taught forgiveness?

@noetic2:

Did u ever attend the four walls of ANY academic learning environment? did u ever go to a school? I doubt u did.

Cant u see the topic of discussion? its all about allah and forgiveness. why is forgiveness a very big deal to allah? I hate repeating myself.

Are you OK man? Dont you read my response at all? Is forgiveness=punishment according to your statement? Allah says He is the forgiving and the Merciful repeatedly in many verses. He also encourages muslims to forgive others as well, My previous responses was based on your questions relating amputation,killing etc which are very related to punishment to criminals and not individual judgement. Read the following verses:

Allah says:
“The repayment of a bad action is one equivalent to it. But if someone pardons and puts things right, his reward is with Allah…”(Qr, 42:40)

“…. But if you pardon and exonerate and forgive, Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”(Qr, 64:14)

“But if someone is steadfast and forgives, that is the most resolute course to follow.” (Qr,42:43)

In addition, there are differences in offences committed, either to individual or against the govt or humanity in general. Islam takes care of every circumstances under criminal laws and in some cases forgiveness is applicable.

Also, Allah instructed prophet Muhammad as a leader thus:

"So what a great mercy it is from Allah that you (O dear Prophet Mohammed - peace and blessings be upon him), are lenient towards them; and if you had been stern and hardhearted (unsympathetic) they would have certainly been uneasy in your company; so forgive them and intercede for them and consult with them in the conduct of affairs; and when you decide upon something, rely upon Allah; indeed Allah loves those who trust (Him)". Qr3:159

Islam is a religion by which muslims are expected to subscribe to. . . , it is not the paradigm by which all humans regardless of their beliefs are to subscribe to. why does ur allah refuse to encourage u to forgive these people?

That is not a response to my question. Tell me where in the world where the criminals are not being punished at all?

is there any evidence of ANYONE in the koran who allah forgave?

Start reading Quran to yourself. If I tell you will you accept Islam?

He definitely did not come to fulfil allah's sharia law that knows no forgiveness.

Which laws did he came to fulfilled?