₦airaland Forum

LagosShia: i said you're lying.what don't you understand? you like everything being explained to you like a kid.must you always be spoon-fed?

Explain the problem with my argument

mkmyers45: Normally religion is only a matter of faith and the logic of science doesn't apply. Other than the concept of Designed Humanism, are there other religions that can combine God with a belief in logic?

Impossible.

Belief in God is not logical, it is based on faith

Ubenedictus: i looked thru the scripture passages again, and there is no mention of the whip making any physical contact with the merchant. Your use of the word 'flog' is unwarranted.

Jesus Cleanses the Temple

13 The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting there. 15 And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables. 16 And he told those who sold the pigeons, “Take these things away; do not make my Father's house a house of trade.”



=====================


Are we to assume that Jesus walked calmly with a whip and the all ran away?

LagosShia: Genesis 32:28
"Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."

Isaiah 43:1
"But now, this is what the LORD says--he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine".

Sorry, honest mistake. Was wrong about Jacob.

LagosShia: we are talking here about judaism and christianity,what is forbidden by them or not.we are talking about prophets God sent and what was revealed to them.upon examining the bible,you see a contradictory and confusing stance on the issue of consuming alcohol.you would not know whether to consume or not to consume.but there are clear verses prohibiting the use of alcohol.i am concerned with what these verses say and not with what ordinary jews and christians believe or interpret them to mean.

in Islam,the early Muslims used to drink before the explicit verse totally forbidden alcohol was revealed.


Proverbs 23:31-32
Do not gaze at wine when it is red,when it sparkles in the cup,when it goes down smoothly!32 In the end it bites like a snake and poisons like a viper.

Luke 1:15
15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit [a]while yet in his mother’s womb.

Leviticus 10:8-10
Then the LORD said to Aaron, “You and your sons are not to drink wine or other fermented drink whenever you go into the tent of meeting, or you will die. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, so that you can distinguish between the holy and the common, between the unclean and the clean, 11 and so you can teach the Israelites all the decrees the LORD has given them through Moses.”

Judges 13:4
Now see to it that you drink no wine or other fermented drink and that you do not eat anything unclean

Proverbs 20:1
Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise.

Deuteronomy 29:6
You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the LORD your God.”

Isaiah 5:11
Woe to those who rise early in the morning to run after their drinks, who stay up late at night till they are inflamed with wine.

Isaiah 5:22
Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks,

Romans 14:21
It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

LMAO, are you forgetting that

a) Yes there are restrictions on wine when in holy places. But it is not forbidden?

b) There are bible passages supporting wine

c) Alcohol is not forbidden in Jewish law.



So how is Jewish law the same as islamic law. Did the prophet drink alcohol?

LagosShia: you are silly and lying.you need to learn how to read and understand.it looks the christian spirit of lying and insults under christianity's "pious fraud" has not yet left you.

I am not a christian and secondly, I did not lie. The link used a verse from the hadith to overrule the Quran on the waiting period for widows

Ubenedictus: ofcourse, he loved the merchants that is why he convicted them of their sins and drove them from d temple. Love the sinner hate d sin.

Flog the sinner, hate the sin. Sounds appropriate.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]If God created everything and can do all things. It simply follows that there is no rock in existence that God cannot move.

Your immovable rock just doesn't exist. If you are going to pull it out of your imagination, then you must define it properly.[/quote]Right now, there are rocks you can not move.

You on the other hand, can not even define your God properly. You say that he created all things but that is a paradox because he couldnt have created himself before he existed.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Simple rocks can be moved. You made this rock complex by saying it is immovable....so the question now is why is it immovable?[/quote]Can you move a 3000 tonne rock? There are rocks that you cant move. Dont play s.tupid.

Can god create a rock that he can not move?

LagosShia: your christian missionary polemics always based on character assasination and their satanic whiperings to insult the Holy Prophet (sa) are not new under the sun and have being dealt with appropriately.

[size=14pt]Rebuttal:"Muhammad and Safiyya: Disregarding the rule of 'Iddah."[/size]

http://islamic-replies.ucoz.com/Rebut_Muhammad_Saf_Idda.html

That link is nonsense. It uses a hadith to abrogate the Quran (Captives menstruation vs time period for widows)


Shameful

buzugee: all those are metaphoric statements. thats why you need the intelligence of God to be able to decode scripture. the scripture is written in parables so that only those who seek will find. you dont literally read the bible.

Your bible stinks of Darwinian ideology. Survival of the fittest. The irony

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Perhaps you may want to tell us what material this rock is made of, where it exists and why it must exist.[/quote]Anony? is that all you can say? What is your excuse now? That you couldnt be bothered with my "illogical" argument? Fecking artful dodger!


Okay, so you want to play stupid? You dont know what a rock is? You are the one that is biased- creating a spiritual rock to fit our BS christian ideology.


I am talking about a simple rock

LagosShia: didn't you see the name of Jacob (as) in the verse i presented? hope you know "Israel" refers to Jacob (as).



"people of the book" refers to jews first and christians secondly.


i am not doing your exam and you're not my teacher.stop your ego.that is why i sometimes do not reply you.





many of what is "jewish law" is also Islamic law and can even be found in the Holy Quran.

There were christian converts from other nations apart from Isreal. The God of People of the book does not mean the same thing as God of isreal.

Jacob is not isreal.

Alcohol is not forbidden in Judaism and Christianity. So explain how Jewish laws were similar to Islamic laws. Jesus also converted water into wine.

Saint paris: To hide the lascivious character of Muhammad , you all often mention that he married Safiyyah before he slept with her. But they forget to state that Muhammad did not follow the rule of waiting period ( three monthly periods) to sleep with Safiyyah.

We shall now see how Muhammad had violated the rule of idda ( waiting period ) in marrying a woman. These rules are stipulated in the Qur'an thus;

Widows of wait four months and ten days for re-marriage...2:234
Surah2.234
YUSUFALI: If any of you die and leave widows behind, they shall wait concerning themselves four months and ten days: When they have fulfilled their term, there is no blame on you if they dispose of themselves in a just and reasonable manner. And Allah is well acquainted with what ye do.

Clearly, when Muhammad wanted to sleep or to have s3x with Safiyyah , she was a widow, technically, as Muhammad had already killed her husband.

Therefore, as per the Qur'an, Muhammad had to wait at least four months and ten days before he could even touch her. But Muhammad did not at all observe this rule ; instead, he took Safiyyah , straight from the battlefield to his bed in the war camp.

Having spent the night with her, Muhammad took her to another, safer location, stayed there for three days and consummated his marriage with Safiyyah.
Muhammad selected Safiyyah because of her beauty, made her his wife and gave a banquet at the wedding; then he had sex with Saffiyah at Sa`d-AsSahba…(Sahih Bukhari 4.52.143)

Ma'salam

There is a countdown to when you're gonna get banned. . This happens when something wrong in islam is exposed

Cant wait for Maclatunji to conjure up a ridiculous reason to get you banned.

vedaxcool: I have heard a pastor describe himself as a Muslim, Muslim = one who submits to the will to God, . . .,

@ bold part;

Either you heard a liar or you're a liar.

By your definition, Christians and Jews and other monotheists are muslims. Your definition fails. Why dont you guys admit it? Will someone stone you to death if you admit something is wrong?

vedaxcool: hence we understand that Moses etc. We believe the prophets of God whether in the bible or Qur'an all brought the same message, but man later corrupted the messages that is the bible is filled with many mumble jumble, . . . the word Jew originated from the word Judah etc this was just a religion coined from a name of person to mean both a religion and an ethnicity any case . . . we believe all prophets shared the same principles . . . the worship of one God . . .

This is funny. Do you know how insulting your whole religion is if you believe that? To call Jewish prophets muslim and then go around saying that their religion is corrupted when you borrowed from their religion, is kind of blasphemous and ungrateful to the Jews.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Most of what you say, I won't bother to respond to. They are simply not worthy of an answer. I just want to address this particular question because you have raised it a few times in the past.

The problem with this question like almost all your other questions is that they stem from a preconcieved bias and this one is even sillier because you have created an imaginary object in your head i.e a stone God cannot move. You may as well ask "Can God create hiujjyregyweqtzxh and make it drink beer?" It is like asking so you are able to drink water, can you drink a drop of water that you cannot swallow. Question is what exactly is an unswallowable drop of water?

Logic is very difficult for you[/quote]After dodging most of my reply, you resort to entertain us with illogical argument.


How can there be a bias in my question? A simple question asking if a a being can create something.

Logic must be difficult for you. If I asked you if you could build something you can not move, you would answer it quite easily.

The question is a profound question.

Asking if someone can drink a drop of water that he can not swallow is stupid because- to drink is also to swallow- two inseparable actions

My question asks to build and move. two independent actions.

Logic must be hard for you.


A rock you can not move is something you can not transport from one place to another. It exists.

A drop of water you can not swallow does not exist, unless you ave throat cancer/problems.

ijawkid: So from ur points raised how did all that make Jesus a problem to isreal as a nation back then.....

How could the reactions of Jesus constituted to the problems of any nation..??

All Jesus did was preach love....he even healed and raised up people from d dead...fed thousands.......

He never took sides in wars,,.....

How can u tell me if I imitate that kind of person I won't make 9ja a good place.....

God and his son aren't d problems of 9ja like I told u,corrupt humans are.....

......

I could still explain all of Jesus's words and actions u quoted up there one by one only if ur not gonna be blind to the truth....

Thanks.....

lololol....did Jesus preach love to the merchants in his church?

Logic Mind: I love it when christians try to use logic when they are cornered.

We can use your logic against the so called resurrection of jesus from death because the definition of death means end of life, death of all cells. This is different from hibernation or the state of coma because decomposition sets in at the point of death. If you study the reactions to the body at death, you'll understand that jesus having died most probably due to excessive loss of blood via his wounds lost the remaining blood via the holes in his feet due to gravity taking over when the heart stopped beating. Other stages of decomposition (algor mortis, autolysis, etc) make it impossible that anything defined as dead could come back to life again. If you have a resurrection, then there could by logic not have been death. So your jesus may have defeated a state of coma, hibernation, faked death or other natural or undiscovered survival mechanism but cetainly not death.

Another fallacy of your argument is if god is the ultimate cause of everything, it means that god is thus the ultimate cause of himself. And here, the mind stops boggling and explodes.

Oh no!

Dont scare Mr Anony away .....I let him off with this fallacy at the beginning so that I could land the sledge hammer of logic on him later.

LMAO

odumchi: Up until recently, all Catholics read prayers in Latin.

What does this have to do with anything?

Remeber that the bible was in Hebrew and Greek originally.

LagosShia: i have.



Holy Quran 2:136
"Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants [/b]and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

[b]Holy Quran 29:46
"And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

The above quotes do not refer to Allah as the God of isreal. However, the bible does.


1) The descendants of Abraham does not = Isreal.
2) Not all christians were Jews in the times of Jesus. People of the scriptures would mean christians. And so, that description would be beyond Isreal.


You keep failing.


Jesus was not a muslim.

Jews and christians say that Moses and Jesus were religious Jews, yet you claim that they were muslims. Only one of you guys can be correct. Why should anyone learn about Jesus/Moses from Arabs and their Arabic Quran when they lived with Jews with Jewish laws.

MacDaddy01: Please, show me proof that her husband mistreated her.

Still waiting for the proof.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]What part of "ultimate cause of everything in existence" don't you understand?[/quote]So you are saying that
-God caused himself to exist
-God caused diseases to exist
-God invented the emotion of "jealousy" but mysteriously succumbs to this depressing emotion. "Jealous God
-God created Satan
-God created evil

Surely, your God sounds like a paradoxical monster.


Can God create a rock that he can not move?

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Fine, Logicboy endorses dishonesty and killing[/quote]Lol....when have I done that? Your bible loves killing and enslaving people. Flooding the whole earth, killing witches and taking slaves from the nations around Isreal. It is endorsed in clear writing in the bible.

Thanks for trying to dodge. But you fail. You cant dodge with me.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Why is it such a problem for you how many weddings a person chooses to have or what names a people choose to call their children?[/quote]Dodging again. The question is not whether I care bout marriages or naming ceremonies but why do people do it. Rather, it is your churches who care about names

Why do churches feed the racist and ignorant notion that a marriage is not valid without the blessing of a church? Were our grandfathers and ancestors married in a church??

Why do catholic and some anglican churches baptize people in the name of European and Jewish saints? Why was I told that I cant be baptized with my local name but to choose from names with saints in heaven like Phllip, Paul, Jeremiah etc.




[quote author=Mr_Anony]Yes Paul said those things, he also said other things too, sexist is just your bias.[/quote]So, someone says sexist and pro-slavery stuff and I am the one that is biased? Typical christian babble. The bible says terrible things but the person that points it out is wicked.

LagosShia: how did they describe him? and what is the difference?

go and read the bible.


The Quran does not describe God as the God of isreal".

LagosShia: you have being corrected.that the Prophet's (sa) father was not a pagan but a hanif.you insisted based on what?

wow,MacDaddy.....why the explosion? Wasn't your father a pagan? Correct me if i am wrong.

And why did you get so angry? This is not usual of you!

My father was a christian.


Muhammad's father was a pagan. He believed in sacrifice. Prophets before him did not.

LagosShia: The Tetragrammaton in the Quran:
https://www.nairaland.com/993524/christians-god-yaweh-he-same#11481891

Calm down. No one is talking about the root meaning of Yaweh here. I am talking about the way Moses and Jesus described him. They described him different from the way Muhammad/islam did.

fellis: I was going to write something similar to what LagosShia wrote about the prophet's father. Thanks.

Have no idea what this means.

HuH?

Muhammed's father was a pagan. Or am I getting something basically wrong?

LagosShia: your father is the pagan and worm eater.

Wow, LagosShia.....why the explosion? Wasnt Muhammad's father a pagan? Correct me if I am wrong.


And why did you get so angry? This is not usual of you!

LagosShia: teachincally,yes the Prophet's (sa) father was a Muslim just as we also refer to Jesus and Musa (as) as Muslims.the Quran states that religion to Allah (swt) is Islam.

Holy Quran 3:19
"Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah , then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account".

Islam was institutionalized with the coming of Prophet Muhammad (sa).previously no messenger or prophet including Jesus and Moses (as) called their teachings or beliefs with a name.the religion of Allah (swt) had to be completed to humanity before the name was "officially declared" upon its completion.

Holy Quran 5:3
"This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion".

the father of the Prophet (sa) and his likes who never followed polytheism/idolatry were referred to as "hanif" (monotheists).this is the same term used in the Quran to refer to Ibrahim (as).

Holy Quran 3:67
"Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was one inclining toward truth, a hanif (monotheist),submitting to Allah(Muslim). And he was not of the polytheists".

Holy Quran 2:135
"They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (to salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the religion of Abraham the true [Hanifan] and he joined not gods with Allah."

Holy Quran 4:125
"Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to Allah does good and follows the way of Abraham the true in faith [Hanifan] ? For Allah did take Abraham for a friend".

Holy Quran 10:104
"Say: "O ye men! if ye are in doubt as to my religion (behold!) I worship not what ye worship other than Allah But I worship Allah Who will take your souls (at death): I am commanded to be (in the ranks) of the Believers".

Are you alright?


Muhammad's father was a pagan. A sacrificer

fellis: Jesus didn't use 'Allah' when talking about God because he didn't speak Arabic, he spoke Aramaic, I think.
Muhammed's father's name was Abdullah, meaning servant of Allah because the name Allah didn't come about with the advent of Islam. People had been using it to refer to (the highest) God before the Qur'an was revealed.

But Muhammad's father submitted to Allah and by your general definition, He is a muslim (While being pagan...lmao)


Yaweh is quite different from Allah. Allah has 99 names, none of which relate to how Moses related to God/Yaweh.


You can see why christians ridicule islam? Both Jews and Christians see Jesus and Moses as Jewsih. Your Koran comes about 600 years after Jesus to claim that he is a muslim.

LagosShia: when you use the word "jew",it has the culturally and also the religious meaning.

if you mean culturally,then yes,Jesus and Moses (as) were jews.

but if you mean,"jew" religious-wise,then no,their religion was not judaism.the religion of all the messengers and prophets of God Almighty is Islam which is submission and total surrender of oneself to the will of God.

Lmao.....So Jesus and Moses did not follow Jewish laws? They did not keep the sabbath holy? They didnt go to synagogues? These people were both religious and cultural Jews.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]lol, I love the man actually.....and I also love you (I doubt you'll understand that though)



....Ihedinobi and I must have really gotten under your skin. Anyway, first of all, you don't even know the meaning of the word 'debunk'. Secondly I usually avoid arguing with you because frankly your arguments are wearying and I find that you have difficulty following arguments logically.

As for your questions, the way they are phrased alone don't even make for a healthy debate. I'll show you what I mean:

1.-Did God cause the big bang?
The definition of God is that He is the ultimate cause of everything that is. Any debate on this would mean that one will have to redefine God, at which point it will no longer be God that is being talked about. The only way you can possibly debate this is to show that God is not God i.e. You will have to logically prove that the big bang and everything else was caused by something else other than the ultimate cause of everything. I wish you goodluck with that.

2.-Did christianity/the bible support slavery.
I could debate this one but the problem with it is that it doesn't paint a complete picture at all. There are a lot of questions surrounding it such as the morality of slavery as depicted in the bible and so on and so forth. To answer the question strictly as it is would be to give you a soundbite to jump on. It's just like if I asked is logicboy a crooked liar, and a killer? the strict answer is yes (because you have lied before and you have also killed, even if it is insects you killed). You see, the question doesn't paint a complete picture.

3 -Isnt christianity destroying our culture?
The question here is unfair because it already assumes that our culture is good and christianity is destroying it. You will have to define what a good culture is and then tell me why our culture is good and what christianity is doing to it then we can argue over whether christianity is enhancing our culture or destroying it.
It is like if I asked the question "Isn't logicboy a mad boy?".......see what I mean now?.


4-Is christianity not sexist?
Same thing as applies to number 3[/quote]1) Let Me change the question. Please, define God. I want to debunk your notion of God

2) "you may buy slaves from the nations around you" (leveticus)....."slaves obey your masters" (Colossians). Slavery was endorsed both in the old and new testaments.

3)Why do we have 2 weddings church and traditional? Why are we naming our children "Jeremiah" and "Solomon" rather than Akpos, Seun or Tobi? Why are our pagan shrines destroyed instead of kept for tourism?

4)Paul said that women should be silent in churches. Sexist. He also said that women are made in the image of man but men are made in the image of God.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]@Logicboy, I do attend and sometimes engage in organized debates in London. If you are interested, I can give you a heads up when I'm attending another such debate and if it is about a topic that interests you, perhaps you may want to attend and hopefully it affords us an opportunity to catch up and have a drink or two[/quote]That is nice. I am busy for the next few weeks but I will see what I can do. Just know that face to face meetings result in a harder debunking than typing on Nairaland. There is no chance for artful dodging!

fellis: Jesus was actually a Muslim.
Muslim= Someone who submits to the will of Allah.

Fellis? Even you?

So, Jesus followers were muslim too? Jesus talked about Yaweh not Allah.


Funny enough, muhammad's father's name was "Abdallah!" meaning "servant of Allah". Was Muhammad's father a muslim?