₦airaland Forum

Tayorshd87:
Even if this is related to truth or not have u forgotten somebody programmed the machine??
So of the person is a Muslim so what do u expect the machine to say about Christian?

honesttalk21:
At what age did God first speak with Abraham or start to establish any covenant with him?
Where was this your view of integrity keeping when he went into Hagar? Was he specifically blamed for this by God in the biblical scripture? NO

honesttalk21:
God was simply telling more about the scope of his covenant. It was not over with the birth of Ishmael. Sadly you seem fixed at a competition between Isaac and Ishmael which doesn't exist. They are both honoured men and prophets of God.

honesttalk21:
They were not in the picture yet an angel clearly delivered a message to Hagar? Please you can do much better in reasoning.

honesttalk21:
There are scanty reports about Ishmael and his descendants in the Bible because it focuses on the lineage of Isaac and the Israelite people. Sadly you are the one getting emotional here.

honesttalk21:
When you consider the story about Esau in your Bible and his accomplishments at age 15 you have a good idea of how able Ishmael will have been at the time of his departure.

honesttalk21:
Job’s trials begin when God allows Satan to test him. The premise to this is that Satan challenges God’s assertion that Job is a faithful servant. Satan argues that Job only worships God because he has been blessed with prosperity and protection. Thus, the central question arises: Is Job’s faith genuine, or is it merely a response to his circumstances? This challenge sets the stage for an exploration of true worship—worship that persists regardless of one’s situation. Could the absence of these things stop Job from worshipping the true and real God? idolatry and polytheism are acts that divert believers from true worship directed at a singular divine entity. Indeed you show your privileged pampering expecting every thing to be specifically written out. What use is the intellect bestowed on mankind?

honesttalk21:
Ishmael, the son of Abraham and Hagar, lived a life filled with both privilege and hardship before he was banished with his mother into the wilderness. As the son of Abraham, Ishmael would have been given the best education and training available at the time.
He would have learned the ways of his father's people.

paxonel:
Lies! Lies! Lies
1 Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing...

paxonel:
if people were not Christians or they were not born Christians they have no business going to church or being churchgoers.
so how does this stop the person from going to church?

paxonel:
is this not a description of people like atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, traditionalists, etc who doesn't go to church?

paxonel:
You are a Christian because you were born and brought up one
If you were born into an Islamic family you would have ended up becoming Muslim, it's as simple as that

honesttalk21:
In those times, it was indeed common for men to take concubines or have children with other women if their wives were unable to bear children. Abraham was already 75 years old when he first received the promise of Genesis 12:4. Obviously he was not bothered not having a child before this time. It was indeed Sarah who suggested that Abraham have a child with Hagar yet this became a problem for her when it happened so.


The covenants with Abraham were:
1. Genesis 12:1-3, where God calls Abram to leave his homeland and promises to make him a great nation. This covenant includes:
a. God promises Abraham that he will give him land.
b. God assures Abraham that he will have numerous descendants.
Did he say all these descendants will be in one land?
c. Through Abraham’s lineage, all nations will be blessed.
Not one nation but many nations.

honesttalk21:
2. In Genesis 17 there is the Covenant of Circumcision. God changes Abram’s name to Abraham, Circumcision is established as a physical sign of this covenant. However before this in Genesis 16 when Sarah's harassment had caused Hagar to flee, the angel had delivered a messaged to her from God. The angel delivered a message of hope and promise to Hagar, assuring her that God had heard her cries and would provide for her and her child. In Genesis 16:10-11, the angel tells Hagar, I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count ... You are now pregnant and you will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has heard of your misery. Are there descendants exclusively of Hagar with no connection to Abraham? This interaction with the angel not only reassured Hagar of God's care for her but also affirmed her worth and importance in His eyes.

honesttalk21:
The covenant that God made with Abraham extended to Hagar and her son Ishmael. Despite being a foreigner and a slave, Hagar was chosen by God to play a significant role in fulfilling His promises to Abraham. Through her obedience and faith, she became a key figure in the lineage of the Israelites and the Ishmaelites.

honesttalk21:
Then God promised a child to Isaac. Indeed God made separate covenants with Abraham before the individual births of Ishmael and Isaac. Ishmael, the son of Abraham and Hagar, is noted to have had twelve sons. Isaac had two sons Esau and Jacob, with Jacob being the father of the twelve tribes of Israel. Isn't it interesting that Isaac didn't directly bare the 12 tribes of Israel? Interesting to note that the descendants of Esau known as the Edomites were a terror to the Israelites.

honesttalk21:
Job was steadfast and refused to yield to the push of his wife, friends and his dire straits to embrace abandon God and embrace idolatry.

honesttalk21:
No matter how much your mum will try to pamper you will a reasonable man not do what is expected of him? Perhaps in your reasoning she will spoon feed him and take him to the toilet. Your reservations are obviously due to an absence of true understanding and acceptance of guidance. You rather stick to inappropriate understanding to defend non acceptance of the truth.

honesttalk21:
Indeed the ways of God are not the ways of man. God's wisdom is far above that of man. You feel dislike due to Abraham having child through other than Sarah despite this being acceptable practice?

honesttalk21:
Did God make the covenant with Abraham and Sarah or with Abraham? Remember too that God does not speak directly to Sarah in the same personal manner as He does with Hagar. Instead, His communication with Sarah is mediated through Abraham. Or do you have a different opinion or understanding about this?
Hagar's return according to your Bible doesn't reflect her integrity with God?

honesttalk21:
You limit the scope of Abraham's covenant!

honesttalk21:
Job experiences profound loss of wealth and health tests his faith severely and could lead him toward polytheism or atheism. Is it uncommon today when people face such trials they turn to places they aren't supposed to in search of solution?

honesttalk21:
In ancient Near Eastern societies boys typically transitioned into manhood around the age of 13. By ages 16 to 19, these young men were expected to take on more substantial roles within their families and communities.
Young men in this age group were often at their physical peak. They engaged in agricultural work, herding livestock, and other labor-intensive tasks that required significant strength and endurance.
Tribal conflicts were common so young men at this age often took on protective roles for their families and communities. They learned combat skills necessary for defending against threats from rival tribes or wild animals.
How can such one be the subject of such pampering from his mother?

honesttalk21:
It's quite unfortunate the extent of envy as Isaac is not the first born. Deuteronomy 21:17
He must acknowledge the son of his unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double share of all he has. That son is the first sign of his father’s strength. The right of the firstborn belongs to him. Consider what verses 15 and 16 say before this.

In Genesis 17:20, God acknowledges Ishmael and promises to bless him, making him the father of twelve princes and a great nation. This shows that Ishmael was indeed part of God's plan.

God promises Abraham that his descendants would become as numerous as the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore (Genesis 15:5, 22:17).

The most significant aspects of the covenant is the promise that through Abraham, "all nations of the earth will be blessed" (Genesis 12:3, 22:18).

honesttalk21:
Remember too that in Genesis 16:10-12, God speaks to Hagar, Ishmael's mother, after she flees from Sarah, saying, "I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count." This mirrors the promise God made to Abraham regarding his descendants. Ishmael is specifically mentioned as the one through whom this promise will be fulfilled.

Through the Covenant of Circumcision God reaffirms His covenant with Abram, changes his name to Abraham, and commands circumcision as the sign of the covenant. Abraham circumcised and did same to Ishmael and all members of his household before Isaac was born. This is still the practice amongst descendants of Ishmael.

Circumcision serves as a physical sign of the covenant between God and Abraham’s descendants.

The Bible discusses one side of the covenant and not the other more so that the authors of the books here had less concern with other descendants perhaps a continuation of the dislike between Sarah and Hagar. You know how step siblings relation often are.

honesttalk21:
Integrity in worship serves as a safeguard against idolatry by fostering an authentic relationship with God, promoting awareness of potential idols, committing to the truth regardless of apparent unfavourable results, encouraging community accountability, facilitating continuous reflection, and emphasizing God’s sovereignty.

honesttalk21:
There is no evidence to suggest that Ishmael the son of Abraham grew up defectively or slower than he should during his early ages; rather, he is depicted positively in biblical texts and cultural contexts. At the age of 16/17 he would have been very energetic beyond being placed in shrubs. This is done for babies or toddlers who cannot move on their own accord

honesttalk21:
Integrity in false or idol worship? You refuse to see the push of Job's wife. No problem.

honesttalk21:
Ok. More likely he was 14 when Isaac was born and between 16 and 17 when same Isaac was weaned; considering weaning could occur between ages 2 to 3 years or even later, based on historical practice.
At this age is he easily put under the shrub and lifted up his mother Hagar? He was no longer a toddler.
Do you not find this strange?

honesttalk21:
The Samaritans believed in the God of Israel and followed the teachings of the Torah, but they had certain theological differences with the Jews, such as where to worship.

What was defective in the Torah? Did Jesus say the Torah was faulty or criticised the clergy for not sticking strictly to It? Is this not good reason for the Samaritans to distance themselves from the Jewish belief?


Job 31:24-28: “If I have put my trust in gold or said to pure gold, ‘You are my security,’ if I have rejoiced over my great wealth, the fortune my hands had gained, if I have regarded the sun in its radiance or the moon moving in splendor, so that my heart was secretly enticed and my hand offered them a kiss of homage, then these also would be sins to be judged, for I would have been unfaithful to God on high.

Is worshipping another other than God not an act of unfaithfulness to God?

Then in Job 2:9 His wife said to him, Are you still maintaining your integrity? Curse God and die.

Does this not show Job's wife despair and suggesting that renouncing God might be a way for Job to escape his suffering?

Job responded in Job 2:10 with You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?

This response reinforces that he remains committed to worshiping God despite his suffering.

You remain resolute in not answering what the age of Ishmael will have been when he left his father's house according to your Bible?

Do you need to call a friend for help as it appears you are unable to answer?

Zaheertyler:
Wahala
Sorry oo bros are you being sarcastic?

Zaheertyler:
Please can someone explain to me

honesttalk21:
Samaritans do not embrace the belief of Jesus as the Son of God and Savior for all humanity.Instead, they recognize Jesus as a prophet or teacher but do not accept him as divine or part of a Trinitarian understanding common in Christian theology. Their belief system emphasizes adherence to their own religious laws and customs rather than aligning completely with either Judaism or Christianity.

honesttalk21:
Do you say the resilience of Job despite his strenuous trials isn't worth emulating as an encouragement to remain steadfast in pure worship?

MaxInDHouse:
That is the man's PERSONAL opinion, he is not speaking for everybody nah!

CanadaOrBust:
You too my good buddy, you too

honesttalk21:
How come there still exist some Samaritans sticking to their form of worship? Is it that they are too far from the Jews to be taught differently?

honesttalk21:
Balaam’s story shows that true worship involves obedience to God’s commands rather than succumbing to external pressures or personal gain. He could only speak what God commanded (Numbers 24:13) which reinforces the idea that genuine worship must align with divine instruction rather than human desires.

Job's story demonstrates that true worship does not depend on circumstances but is rooted in a relationship with God. Throughout his trials, Job maintained his integrity and continued to seek understanding from God rather than turning away from Him.

Hagar’s narrative contributes significantly to our understanding of pure worship through themes of faithfulness amidst adversity, recognition of God’s presence in personal struggles, and the lasting impact on future generations’ spiritual journeys. Her experiences encourage believers across different faiths to embody similar qualities trusting in divine providence.

Are these what you claim bares no significance to following the true faith?


You still refuse to comment on the age of Ishmael when he left Abraham's house with his mother Hagar?

You don't know or your scripture doesn't mention or give pointers to it?

MightySparrow:
In a word, you refuse to follow Jesus and Paul.

CanadaOrBust:
Once again, if you are unwilling to accept what "scholar" means in English language then invent your own language and define it as you wish. You have been fully advised as to what it means in English language.

honesttalk21:
In traditional ancient Hebrew, verbs used with animals are often not used with mankind. The language distinguishes between the actions and characteristics of animals and humans. A common rendition of Genesis 16:12 translates as "He shall be as a wild ass of a man; his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him.

However, a closer examination of this by scholars show that this translation may not accurately convey the intended meaning of the original Hebrew text. The use of the verb "be fertile" in the phrase "He shall be as a wild ass of a man" can be seen as problematic, as it suggests a purely animalistic nature. Instead, a more appropriate translation should be "He will be fertile of man," implying that the subject will be fruitful in terms of human relationships and interactions.

Furthermore, the phrase "his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him" when reexamined shows that rather than suggesting a violent or antagonistic nature, this phrase could be translated as "His hand will be with everyone, and everyone's hand will be with him." This interpretation emphasizes the idea of mutual cooperation and interconnectedness among individuals, rather than conflict and strife.

References:- Alter, Robert. The Hebrew Bible: A Translation with Commentary. W.W. Norton & Company, 2019.

- Bird, Phyllis. "Gendering God's Wild Donkey: Hagar and the Wild Ass of the Hebrew Bible." Journal for the Study of the Old Testament, vol. 28, no. 5, 2004, pp. 267-284.

Now tell me which mother will go back to bare a wild man who will always be at war?

Petalss:
What a wonderful God! It’s perplexing to think that the peace-loving God has destined Ishmael, the unborn child, and his descendants to be unpeaceful according to your Scripture. How can this be considered goodnews/ blessing for Abraham? Rather than bringing comfort and hope, it raises questions about the nature of divine justice and mercy. If God promises blessings and peace, why would He allow one of Abraham's sons to inherit a legacy of conflict?

honesttalk21:
Are you boldly saying that the Samaritan Pentateuch has no relevance to the Christian or Jewish collection of the books of the Torah?
The Samaritans split from mainstream Judaism sometime after the Babylonian Exile (6th century BCE). They claim their version of the Torah represents an older, purer tradition, predating the development of the Jewish Masoretic Text. The Dead Sea Scrolls provide evidence that some readings found in the Samaritan Pentateuch match more closely with ancient Hebrew texts than the Masoretic Text does. The Samaritan Pentateuch is an important witness to the textual history of the Torah.

honesttalk21:
The people have no impact but are worthy to be kept in your book? Indeed you choose what pleases you to get carried away with and ignore the others that don't suit you or you failed to notice. Whether Balaam or Job ads to the tenets of Islam isn't the question. Were they prophets mentioned in your book of non Israelite origin? You refuse to respond was Ishmael a baby when he was sent away with his mother Hagai from Abraham's dwelling place? This will prove if he was old enough to have started knowing the God Abraham worshipped or not.

MightySparrow:
So you are no longer preaching
The Kingdom of Heaven on your kingdom Halls nor following Jesus and Paul as only true worshippers? This selective, convenient doctrines of your organization self. You will divide a verse of the scriptures into two, take on half and fight over the other. You will not kii person with lies and hypocrisy

AntiChristian:
It's not a strange link!
It's my post here on nairaland!

MightySparrow:
Who is faithless?
The scriptures say, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. Paul said,' follow me as I follow Jesus.
Your organization and you fixate your own on Peter.'

AntiChristian:
Jehovah did say it in your Bible sha!

You can follow up here!
https://www.nairaland.com/5581249/punishment-not-following-yhwh-old

CanadaOrBust:
It has nothing to do with what I think or the world. It has to do with LANGUAGE. A Shakespeare scholar would be someone who devotes his time studying Shakespeare plays in-dept and possibly did his PhD on them. That he can neither act nor direct a Shakespeare play has no bearing on it.

PCHC:
Just Faith without works is dead, even so Circumcision without obeying/keeping the Law of God is vanity. Both cases are like a body without the spirit, and that body is dead.

This was Paul's explanation, that keeping the Law of God authenticates a man to being a true Jew in the sight of God. This means, those who are non-jews may be regarded as Jews to God if they keep the Law, while those who by nature are born Jews may be disqualified from being Jews if they break the Law.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the King of Jews, and therefore He has authority to declare or deny any man the "Jewish Status." Example of the Lord Jesus Christ denying some natural Jews the "Jewish Status" and awarding the "Jewish Status" to those who kept His Word is in this reference below:

[Revelation 2:9, 3:9-10 BSB] — I know your affliction and your poverty—though you are rich! And I am aware of the slander of those who falsely claim to be Jews, but are in fact a synagogue of Satan.... Look at those who belong to the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews but are liars instead. I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and they will know that I love you. Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Spiritually, being a Jew is a great deal for access into Jerusalem, and the Lord is selective on those who shall be the true Jews in the days to come.

[Zechariah 8:23 FBV] — This is what the Lord Almighty says: At that time ten men from different nations and languages will grab hold of the hem of a Jewish man's robe and plead, “Please take us with you for we have heard that God is with you.”

honesttalk21:
Kindly find the Samaritan text of the Torah, Sefer Bereshit 16:12 confirming the phrase para adam literally “fruitful man”.

honesttalk21:
Did Balaam descend from Isaac? and Job if you consider the Septuagint that identifies him as Jobab, who was a king of Edom Genesis 36:33. If this identification holds true, it would imply that Job was related to Isaac through Esau but would not be considered an Israelite since he descends from Esau rather than Jacob.

As an outlier when Hagai left or was ostracized from Abraham was Ishmael a baby or teenager ref. Genesis 21?

honesttalk21:
The most appropriate translation is:
He will be fertile of man. His hand will be with everyone. And everyone’s hand will be with him. And he will live among all his brothers.

honesttalk21:
This promise to Abraham extends far beyond just the Israelites. It is a universal covenant that offers blessings to all who choose to follow God's teachings.

CanadaOrBust:
You have to invent your own language.
In English language, regardless of whether they follow it or not, someone who does the following is a Bible scholar:
Devotes himself to in-depth study of the Bible (often attempting to interpret the text in its original historical context), memorizes and meditates on it, does research and reads books on it, possibly went to school for, and very likely makes a living from it teaching and writing (mainly because they're left with no time to do anything else).