₦airaland Forum

logic1:
A summary of my theistic stance:

1. We exist in a universe

Sure we do. . . .

2. We are locked into the universe we exist in and we know nothing of the operations outside our universe

We currently know nothing, but we could know something in the future. . . . .By the way you have not shown that something exist outside the universe, you have only made an assumption. . .

3. By 2. above, No one inside my universe can explain the operations outside my universe

Not entirely true. ,

4. By 3. above, I believe that there are many things that even though are impossible within our universe may not be impossible outside our universe

OK. . . .

5. Our universe could have been created.

Since your argument or explanation is for the God of the bible, its up to you to provide evidence to show that the universe was created by the said God and nothing else. . . . .

6. If our universe was created then it would have been created by a being outside our universe

OK. . . .

7. If a being outside our universe created our universe then it would be impossible to decipher that being as that would require knowledge of the operations outside our universe which (by 3. above) we do not have.

Not when that thing can speak, write, explain and reveal itself to people and wants people to get to know him so that they can worship him, fear him, honor him and live according to his alleged laid down laws. . . .

8. By 1-7, I conclude that it is impossible for us to decipher God (the being outside our universe that created our universe).

Not, true. . . .cos even the bible does not say so. . . .

9. If it is impossible for us to decipher God (If He exists) then we can conclude that it is impossible to say categorically that God does not exist.

Where in the bible does it say that people can not decipher the God it talks about?. . . .

10. Therefore God can exist.

You are just self projecting yourself as God and making contradictory statements, therefore all Gods are man made and do not exist in reality. . . .

Krayola BABA!! How far na? Its been a while bros. . . .I can see that you are now into the music business full time. . .Best wishes to you from this end bros. . . .Keep the flag flying high. . . .

logic1:
God is not only Perfect. God Loves us.

You just keep regurgitating this blind statement without demonstrating how. . . . .You claim your God is perfect, How is he perfect and how does he love humans?. . . .

If God didn't love us He'd exterminate us in a whim because we deserve to be exterminated if you consider how evil mankind has become.

In the bible we have good leading his chosen men to go and do evil acts, no?. . . . .

God loves us so even though He is perfect He created ways for the jews to atone for their imperfect actions temporarily before Jesus came to atone for all of mankind once and for all.

Again you keep repeating very blind statements. . . . . .I really don't have time for any theological brouhaha, but why should any body accept the Christian hypothesis?. . . .

logic1:
Morality is a SENSE of behavioural conduct not the current zietgeist or an enshrined code of justice used in the court of law.

I think we are talking about different things.
What I am refering to when I say morality is an intrinsic human quality that enables us to differentiate right from wrong or to even know that there is right and there is wrong.

You just seem to be shooting your self in the foot and going around in a meaningless circle. . . .You aforementioned that morality does not evolve, which is a very FALSE statement. . . . .Right and wrong differs from culture to culture and from society to society. . . .Right and wrong also evolves. . . .What might be right today might be wrong tomorrow and what might be wrong today might be right tomorrow. . . .Morality is NOT intrinsic it has to be learned through experimentation and by experience. . . .Let me give u and example, long ago some tribes in Nigeria used to kill their twin babies and they saw nothing wrong with that, they never saw anything wrong with that action, they had to be thought to stop it. . . . If morality were intrinsic  as you erroneously claim then why do parents spend a lot of time, effort and resources teaching their children the difference between right and wrong? I would expect all children to know  the difference between right and wrong automatically if morality were intrinsic. . . .

logic1:
NO! morality is not evolving.

It is Human Justice codes that are evolving.

What is this? . . . .Here is a simple definition of morality from Wikipedia " Morality is a sense of behavioral conduct that differentiates intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are good (or right) and bad (or wrong)"

Pls tell me how human morality (or moral codes) is not always evolving?. . . . .

logic1:
The funny thing is that the same way we can condemn practices done thousands of years ago is the same way that people who lived thousands of years would condemn us for many of the things that our modern justice codes permit.

And what does that tell you?. . . Doesn't this tell you that morality is not set in stone but keeps evolving?. . . . .People set and enforce their own moral values all the time, and its always changing. . . .Moral values and set by humans not by imaginary Gods. . . .

logic1:
step 6: Establish that evil could not have come from God therefore humans were not created evil

1. We have established in step 4 that God is Just / Morally upright.
2. A just and morally upright God cannot create evil
3. If God did not create evil and God created humans then it means that when God created Humans, humans were not evil.
4. Therefore Humans were not created evil.

Only that you are self projecting yourself as God and lying about what the God you claim to be representing has allegedly said. . .According to the bible Yahweh created evil. . . .

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

logic1:
You (A human being) are one of the objects I consider to be so complex.
You (A human being) are so complex that I think you must have been designed.

Your body contains trillions of cells that are different.
One of those cells is like a miniature city.

The most unnerving of it all is that all of this is built from one spermatozoa cell and one ovum.
Imagine the complexity of the information inside the spermatozoa cell.

This is a picture of what I describe as complex.

This could not have happened BY MISTAKE. It must have been DELIBERATE.

Your evidence to show that Yahweh of the bible created human beings is WHAT?. . . . .What if I insist that Allah created all humans, how can you show me that I am wrong?. . . .

logic1:
If God is the creator then if He really needs humans, He can just create another Universe.

You have not shown how any God needs humans. . .You just keep begging the question. . . . .God really needing humans means he is NOT what ever you guys keep saying he is. . .God really needing humans means there are things that he needs but can't get which throws away some of the powers you have ascribed to him like all powerful or a God that knows and can do all things. . . .

based on the above statement I can infer that God does not NEED humans

What are you saying? I one statement you said your God really needs humans, now you are saying he does not need humans? Which is it Mr logic1?. . . . .

logic1:
obama NEEDED to repair relationship with the Muslim world for obvious reasons.

Sure. . . ,

God does not NEED to repair His relationship with humans. He may WANT to but He does not NEED to.

Are you for real? I thought your God wanted to repair his relationship with humans so bad that he decided to come and sacrifice himself so that the relationship will be repaired?. . . . .By the way since when did you become God to know what he wants and what he does not want?. . .Self projecting yourself as God is the name of the game, no?. . . .

Furthermore If you have never seen Obama you can debate that writings and videos of him were manufactured and are not true.

What is this lame analogy?. . . .I have never seen Obama, but I have seen him address himself in some of his videos as Barack Obama and that takes all my doubt away. . . . .

I wanted to contribute but I can see that BaboonYansh has done justice to the vacuous and illogical arguments of logic1(I still wonder why he uses that name). . . .

logic1:
The fact that an ambassador of a country makes a case for his president in a foreign country does not mean his president is imaginary.

The fact that obama visited Ghana in the past does not mean that there must be no US ambassador to Ghana.

You just keep making lame attempts and analogies. . . . .When Obama wanted to mend relationship with the Muslim world, he went an delivered a speech in Cairo, Now he is on his way to Europe to strengthen ties with his western European allies. . . . .Obama is NOT imaginary, his images, voice and writings are every where for all to see who doubt? Is there any video recording, voice recording, writing or picture of your God that exist any where?. . . . . .If your God wants people to get to know him as your religion establishes, then he can do much better then sending people that do not even agree with each other on so many things to do his bidding for him, no ? He has done it in the past  according to the stories we read and can still do it again, no?. . . . .On this thread alone you are your fellow Christian brethren are already arguing on what his word said with regards to creation. . . .How funny. . . .

logic1:
1. Stalin, Hitler and Mussollini did not experience the same situations as Moses, Joshua or Jehu. (I don't know how Ezekiel comes into this picture)
2. Jehu was not a Prophet and he did some things that God did not like.

See the thread here https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-155429.64.html#msg7171263 on what makes an action morally Good or bad.

Who told you they did not experience the same situation?. . .Moses, Joshua and Hitler were all guilty of the same crime which is mass murder and genocide. . . .In the case of Moses it was even more asinine since according to the story they killed all the others because their God told them to go kill them off and take their lands because it was flowing with milk and honey. . . .A God that can do all things could not provide a land for his "chosen people" instead he told them to go kill off other and take theirs, right?. . . .Nice. . . .

logic1:
The above statement is fallacious sir.

Does the fact that relativity had to be shown and explained by Einstein prove that relativity does not exist in reality?

The only thing that is fallacious is your ridiculous analogy that does not make any sense, we all know that relativity is not something that can speak or explain it self, talk and interact with humans and wants humans to get to know him, but your God and many other Gods are said to do so themselves at the same time wanting people to get to know them and worship them, a simple reading of your religious book, has the God it talks about, addressing millions of people through public speech, fighting with thousands of men, writing on walls for all to see, conducting test with the followers of other Gods to show that he is superior and  performing incredible actions for all to see there by making himself known and showing himself to others. . . .If such a God exist, you will be the last person to be making his bidding for him, no?. . . . .A God that speaks, writes and perform miracles will not need logic to help make his case for him, no?. . . .

logic1:
You need to have absolute knowledge to know that there is NO moral giver any where.
Therefore since you do not have absolute knowledge the above statement is fallacious.

All the moral laws that we know were created by humans, humans thought themselves all the laws they have in place. . . .Humans invented and wrote down all the moral codes of conduct they abide by in their various societies. . . .You are yet to show any God providing any moral code of conduct to any society. . . . .

logic1:
Animals have been shown to have communal tendencies for survival not a sense of morality.

I think anthropomorphism, the projection of human traits onto animals is what is responsible for all the clamour on animal morality.

At any rate God created Animals and Humans. Animals having morality does not say God is not Moral. I do not see your point here.

You are just begging the question without making any valuable point at all. . . .You have NOT shown that any God exist and that the said God is moral or has any moral tendencies. . . . .The God of the OT is there for all to see, if we are to go by our moral principles today then that God is NOT moral because he does not fit into our moral codes today. . . .You just keep making blind statements, you are yet to demonstrate that the God of the bible is moral in any way. . .

logic1:
step 6: Establish the existence of evil

1. Humans of all tribes have a sense that something is not quite right.
2. Humans of all tribes have a word for bad or evil and there is a general agreement that people do evil things
3. There are jails all around the world for the punishment of people that commit crimes.
4. Crimes that are considered inhuman have been recorded throughout history
5. We have examples of hitler, stalin, mussollini et cetera

6. Therefore Evil is a reality that cannot be explained away.

If the stories in the OT of your bible are true, then your God and most of his prophets(Jehu, Ezekiel, Moses, Joshua etc) and no different from Hitler, Stalin etc, no?. . . . .

logic1:
Step 5: Establish that God is Just / Morally Upright

1. Human beings have a sense of a morality and since there has always been a sense of morality in all recorded history we can conclude that humans were created with a sense of morality.

Sure even some animals have been shown to have a sense of morality. . . . .

2. If we were created with a sense of morality then our creator must be moral as a moral law requires a moral lawgiver.

There is NO moral giver any where, everything about morality was learned. . . .Morality differs from place to place and it MUST be learned. . . .Morality is not objective and evolves all the time . . . .

3. Therefore God is Just and Morally Upright.

God is just an morally upright, how? You are just begging the question. . . .Human morality today has evolved far ahead of that of those that invented your God. . . .If you try any of the OT laws and moral codes that were said to have been given by your God himself you will be in prison for the rest of your life. . . . .The God of the bible is NOT morally upright. . . .

Furthermore the universe would collapse without justice at its most basic form (Cause and effect or Newtons 3rd law)

Humans created what ever form of Justice system they are practicing no God created on handed down any Justice system to any body. . .What you consider to be a form of justice to you might be injustice to me. . .Take Sharia law for example. . .To the Muslim that is the ultimate justice system but to some one like me its a barbaric justice system. . .

Where the hell is the imaginary holy spirit that is supposed to explain things to the brethren in the lord? See, old earth creationist and young earth creationist arguing over nothing. . . .will the imaginary holy spirit come and explain and end the argument once and for all?. . . .I laugh when I see people self projecting themselves as God and deluding themselves all the time. . . . .

logic1:
@mudley

Remember that you are the one that said my God is fictional.
Since you are the one that made the first statement (rather than asking me to prove that God is not fictional) you are the one who is doing the screaming here and are thus the one that is clobbered by the cartoon you posted.

Your God is fictional and exist only on the pages of a fictional book and in the minds of those that were made to believe he exist. . .You God does not exist in reality because he can not be shown to exist on his own without human influence, the writings and and societal influence of men. . . .If you God exist in reality pls point to it and show that it exist. . . . . .Pointing to the existence of man and the environment is just comical because that is evidence for man and for environment not some imaginary God that exists only in people's imaginations. . . . .

When men were writing down their fictions in the bible, they had their God directing battles, writing on walls for all to see, addressing large gathering through public speech, fighting with humans and defeating them, showing some of them his body parts etc. . . .Your God remains fictional and as such can not do anything for himself. . . .Its people like you that have been indoctrinated and believe in his existence that have to do everything for him cos he can't do anything on his own because he remain imaginary. . . .You help make his case, try to bring people to believe in him, fight his wars, do all his bidding etc. . . .Your God is nothing but a man made entity and as such can not exist independent of human belief, writings and human influence. . . . .Just like other Gods before, once people stop believing in your God he will cease to exist( e.g Zeus).

logic1:
Biblical justification for free will.
Deu 30:19  I call Heaven and Earth to witness against you today: I place before you Life and Death, Blessing and Curse. Choose life so that you and your children will live.

Rev 3:20  "Look at me. I stand at the door. I knock. If you hear me call and open the door, I'll come right in and sit down to supper with you.

God cannot say He has placed choices before you if you don't have free will to choose. We can only speak of choice if there is free will.

God says he knows the innermost thoughts of our minds. True. The point is even we do not know the choice we will make until we make the choice.
A person can PLAN to make a choice, but does not know for certain what choice he will make, YOU CAN CHANGE YOUR MIND

Therefore that God knows our innermost thoughts does not mean He knows for certain what we will choose.

I hope I have answered your question.

More drivel. . . .Where is the free will when Yahweh was all over the place hardening people's hearts in the bible, or did free will not exist at that time?. . . .

Here are the basic FACTS. . . . .

1. NO God has ever said he knows the innermost thoughts of any body. . .People made those statements and ascribed it to what ever concept of God they imagined. . . . .

2. The fact that you are here talking about your God and trying to make a case for him shows that he exists ONLY in your imaginations and beliefs, I thought the bible says Yahweh once used his hand to write a message on wall for all to see. . . .Now the men have advanced Yahweh ran way abi?. . . . .

logic1:
Yes, God can by a mere act of will eliminate all human suffering but in so doing[b] God will self destruct as eliminating all human suffering is an unjust decision[/b]. It may be a kind decision from a human point of view but it is not a JUST decision. God is not only a KIND God. God is a JUST God.

When there is a crime, there has to be punishment. That is Justice.

How is that unjust?. . . . .Humans themselves are trying to end human suffering what more of a "loving" God that loves humans?. . . .Are you now saying that you know the mind of your imaginary God or what?. . . . .So what crime did humanity commit? One Man in a fable eating some fruit out of a tree? Don't tell me you believe that fable. . . .Any way that's how religion functions. it makes things up, tell people that they have offended some imaginary God with very ludicrous concepts and promises a way out of the cleverly concocted  jargon . So humans have offended your imaginary God, eh? When did any God appear to you and tell you that?. . . . . .Crazy people. . . . .

logic1:
I do not see any confusion as to who Esau's wives are.
(Gen 26:34) And Esau was forty years old when he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Basemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite;
(Gen 28:9) then Esau went to Ishmael, and took Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael, Abraham's son, the sister of Nebajoth, to the wives which he had for his wife.

Timnah was the name of a person and soon became the name of a place, I do not see any contradiction!

The lineage of Jesus was traced through his mother and then through his surrogate father. That explains the lineage through Solomon and the one through Nathan.

Where in the bible does it say that the lineage of Jesus was traced through his mother and then through his surrogate father? WHERE in the bible was it written?. . . .The problem is when the unknown authors of Matthew and Luke were writing their fables they did not know that their two different accounts of events will be put together into a book in the future. . . .The author of the book of Mathew wrote his fabled lineage of Jesus differently from that of the author of Luke any body that tries to say one was through his mother and the other through is surrogate father is lying because the bible does NOT say so. . . . .

logic1:
God is not omniscient in the way that most people say He is. If he was then the above quote holds true.

In my opinion, God knows all things in that he knows all the possible outcomes of all the possible decisions that all humans can ever make.
God does not know what decision a human being WILL make even though He knows all the decisions the human being CAN make. If God knows the decision that I WILL make then I do not really have free will.

Who is this one? Why is this dude self projecting himself as God and deluding himself?. . . .Firstly there is NO where in the bible where the bible God talks about free will. . .Free will is NOT biblical but a creation of the priest and Church tradition. . .Jesus, God or the prophets of the bible NEVER talked about free will, Free will is just a concept that was developed to help the clergy explain away things. . . .

When did any God tell you that he does not know what decision a human being will make even though he knows all the decisions the human being can make? . . . . . .Is it not the bible that talks about God knowing the inner most thoughts of every body? How then did you come to the ridiculous conclusion that the said God does not know what decision the people will make? when the same bible talks about God having the ability to make people do things they themselves don't want to do by hardening their minds. . . . . .

Martian:
Oh, the irony!
His user name is actually LOGIC1!!!

Its so ridiculous and pathetic at the same time. The deluded goon is busy defending the fables, myths and cultural writings of an unknown barbaric and ancient Jewish authors who used their fables to give them a sense of direction , identity and a form of cultures. . . . .How on earth can you be defending the writings of a very primitive culture that believes stoning to death of disobedient children is the right thing to do or killing others because they worship other Gods is right?. . . .Does the deluded goon know that if his ancestors were living anywhere near the ancient Jews assuming the fables they wrote were true his ancestors will be killed for worshiping other Gods and their virgins shared amongst the Jews?. . . .

What annoys me the most is when I see FOOLS like this logic1(I wonder why he uses that name) defending evil acts just because it happens to be the stories he was raised up to believe. I believe the same FOOL will read the Koran or the hadith and say that Allah is an evil God or Mohammed is a bad person when, the deeds of Mohammed is NOTHING different from all the prophets of the bible whom he revers.

Imagine the fool making statements like the one below. . . . .

Killing with a sword or spear was the fastest way to kill in ancient times. The only way God ever ordered jews to kill was with the sword or spear so (without comparing this to modern times) how would you call that brutal?

Is this guy insane or what? Killing with the sword is also the fastest way to kill during the time of Mohammed, no? Why then do fools like you complain that he was an evil man that killed people because he was carrying out the will of his God?. . . .Do you see how asinine the nonsense you are spewing is?. . . .The way you guys bend over backwards to defend stupid fables is really pathetic and sometimes i really pity you guys. . . .

Very lovely pic. . . .

Why is this baseless myth of a story appearing in the sun news paper? Why should a news papers be publishing such baseless rumors?

Did the Christian God really kill his son? According to some Christians, Jesus is God and if Jesus is God according to the story, that means God killed himself, no?

aletheia:
@mazaje:
Your post is filled with irrelevancies and drivel.

What everrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. . . . . . . .

Almost every day.

Show me a post from any atheist here on nairaland in the past two days that talks about atheist having better moral values than theist?. . . . .

Au contraire: atheism has nothing to do with morals---nothing is right or wrong only what is expedient. At least Religion decrees certain actions are right and others wrong. Even if it doesn't often live up to them: there is a Standard by which moral success or moral failure is judged.
It is absurd for Dawkins to sue his friend; afterall Timonen was only exhibiting "survival of the fittest". If Dawkins cannot compete with Timonen according to the mores of his evolutionary religion, he shouldn't seek a cop out from God's moral code which declares: "Thou shall not steal!"

Who says atheism as nothing to do with morals? atheism is the lack of belief in Gods and not lack of belief in morals. . . . .Evolution has NOTHING to do with atheism since there are a lot of theistic evolutionist. . . . . .Have you ever read the Egyptian book of the dead? It predates the bible and it talks about stealing as a bad vice. . . . .Morality has to be learned through experience and it keep evolving all the time. . . .Men teach themselves morals NO God has ever thought any man anything about morality, morality has NOTHING to do with religion, if you practice some of the old testament morals in this present age you will be arrested and put in prison, that shows you that even your so called God given morals(which is actually man made morals) evolves over time. . . .

What are you nattering about? How is this related to Timonen and Dawkins? And you misrepresent facts: no where does the news article say the parent is a Christian. Stop confabulating!

OK. . . . . . .



[quote][/quote]

What EXACTLY is the point of this thread? When or where has any atheist ever claimed that atheist are more moral or have better moral values than theist? Morality has NOTHING to do with religion or lack of religion. I know many theist that claim they have better moral values than atheist even thought the claims remains a  LIE. . . .Here is one Christian parent following the teachings of the bible. . . .

[size=18pt]13-year-old girl beaten to death for not saying prayers[/size]

[img]http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/dynamic_resize/?src=http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2010/10/11/Noutene_Sidime.jpg&size=256x600&quality=85[/img]

Dad in custody after daughter, 13, dies

Girl refused to say prayers with father: neighbours

By QMI Agency

MONTREAL — A 13-year-old girl whose beating death led to the arrest of her 71-year-old father had enraged him by refusing to say her prayers, according to neighbours.

Noutene Sidime died Saturday evening in suburban Longueuil, Que., three days after she was rushed to hospital with breathing difficulties, her face covered in blood.
Her father, Moussa Sidime, had called 911 last Wednesday. Sidime was arrested and charged with aggravated assault, but the charges could be upgraded, police said.
Neighbours said Noutene Sidime was a polite girl who was often unable to please her elderly father.
Others who live in the apartment building south of Montreal said the girl sometimes neglected to say daily prayers, which infuriated her father.
“(He) was mean,” said Karine Girard, who lives on the street. “I’ve seen him grab her by the arm because she wouldn’t go up to say her prayers.”
Relatives told QMI Agency they believe the girl’s death was an accident.

http://www.monicks.net/2010/10/12/13-year-old-girl-beaten-to-death-for-not-saying-prayers/

Well, the bible does say "Spare the rod, spoil the child!"

It also says to kill disobedient children.

So this father was being a good Christian. . . . .

Obama is a mack daddy. . . . .

[flash=400,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHKKUix_btI?fs=1&hl=en_US[/flash]