₦airaland Forum

Deep Sight:
Quote from Mazaje -

  1. Energy can be turned into matter and vice versa. That's science.

  2. No voice (or any other cognisable animation) is conceivable without energy.

  3. A voice therefore contains energy.

  4. Energy, as stated above, can translate to matter.

  5. Resolved Question: God's voice can tranlate to matter.

Does oneness of infinity have a voice?. . . .

viaro:
@mazaje,

I really wish I had the time all day to walk you through your arguments. However, between my busy schedule the coming weeks, I shall try and pop in and out as much as I can manage.

I have about an hour or more, but let me see what i can do with the time i have to reply to you. . . .

It appears you actually blew hot and cold and lost your way around. Instead of muddling things up, it would have helped you to make your case simple enough and point out what your concerns were. What exactly am I to take from your rejoinder - that all what you argued are to show that the Universe was NOT CREATED? You don't seem to really grasp this point, but I didn't expect you would anyways.

You are are LYING, you have nothing up your sleeves you I see why you will want us to dwell only on that, which i pointed out was just rhetorical. .I have said that I agree that the universe had a cause will you let that be?. . . . 

I don't think that the Bible concludes that the earth was created before the stars.

It VERY CLEARLY states that, Lying through your teeth and trying to change what is written only shows the extent you will go to keep lying to yourself. The bible VERY CLEARLY states that the sun, moon and the stars were created on the fourth day of creation, when the earth with water and plants was already in existence, Your lies will NOT change that fact. . . .It also states that the plants came into existence on earth on the 3rd day of creation.

Often when people read Genesis, they assume a literal chronology that ignores certain points mentioned elsewhere. For one, Isaiah 13:10 indeed mentions "the constellations" of the heavens besides having mentioned the stars, but this 'constellations' is not specifically mentioned in Genesis.

What is this you are doing? What has a passage in Isaiah that is proclaiming disaster against babylong got to do with the creation account in genesis?. . .Constellations is a group of cellestial bodies, The genesis creation account talks the of heavens, no? . . .I am not intrested on your running around, am intrested in what the genesis account ACTUALLY says, not the meaning that you want to give it by drawing from passages in Isaiah that have NOTHING at all to do with the genesis creation account. . . .

The point is that Genesis does not say that God made the earth before the stars; but merely mentioned that He made the stars also (Gen. 1:16), whereas we know from the same Genesis that "light" was already long mentioned in [Gen. 1:3] before other 'lights' mentioned in latter verses [Gen. 1:14]. I'll expound on this latter.

It DOES and VERY CLEARLY, Again lying through your teeth only shows the extent you will go to keep trying to change what has been written and giving it your own meaning, that is actually the reason why there are over 33,000 different sects of your religion. Instead of accepting what was clearly written down as it reads, you prefer to give it a meaning and life of your own, so that it will conform to your views. In genesis we read that the stars were created on the 4th day of creation to give light to the earth which was already in existance, I will go with what the text ACTUALLY says not your merry go round and meaningless equivocations, you can keep on twisting what was written down all you want, but the text is there for all to read. . . .

I'm not one of those who interprets the chronology of 'day' in Genesis 1 as a literal 24hr reckoning of time. For one, Psalm 90:4 shows us that time is relative and not static, and it is only when we look at the context and the big picture that we understand the passages we are trying to decipher.

Psalm 90:4 has NOTHING to do with the creation account in genesis. . . .When you try to decipher as you have done so far, you only end up giving what was written down a life of its own and changing what was actually written down . . . .

Yes, I know that those who pander to the YEC (Y[/b]oung [b]E[/b]arth [b]C[/b]reationism) see those verses in Genesis 1 as amounting to nothing other than literal 24-hour divisions;

Actually I like the young earth creationist for their sincererity, They say it just as it reads, without trying to change anything that was actually written down. . . . Yom in hebrew means day. . . .

but Genesis 2:4 infact specifically declares "[b]the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created" as in the "day" they were made - and we know that a "generation" (תּלדה  /  תּולדה - tôledâh),whether of humanity or of cosmological entities, is far beyond a literal 24-hour day. Isaiah 41:4 also tacitly declares that God has been 'calling the generations from the beginning', and this should have been clear to those who force a literal 24-hr 'day' into Genesis 1 creation. There is not a single verse in the Bible that concludes that the UNIVERSE was created in just 6 days of literal 24 hour divisons.

What is this? Some translation bible translation like the NKJV, NIV, NASB etc put it as the history or account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, not the the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created.  . .  . But that's just by the way. . .

Actually, I am not really intested in weather the day is 24 hours or not, I'll leave you are your YEC brothers to argue that out, am more intrested in the evidence that says that the universe was created in 6 days. . . .If we are to go by other parts of the bible as you have done, it states that a day in the eyes of the bibleGod is like a thousand years, if that is true then we can conclude that the universe was created in 6000 years, no? Where then is the evidence for this that shows that the universe was created in 6000 years?. . . .

Genesis 1:3 mentions 'light' and 'day' before talking about other lights (greater light, lesser lights) in verses 14 - 16. There is no verse that one can sincerely draw upon to conclude that the earth was chronologically created before the sun.

In the footnote of one of the bible I have here (English standard version) it says that the sun and moon were not mentioned in name because when the passage was written people used to worship the sun and the moon. . . .That was why the sun and the moon were reffered to as greater liight to rule the day and lesser light to rule the night. . . .How does the sun and the moon which is a rock rule anything, it makes sense only if there were considred to be gods at that time. . . .The great light there means the sun, lying through your teeth will not do . . . .

[b]Job 38:4-7 shows that the Universe had already been created before the earth was created[/b] - the angels witnessed the creation of the earth. Isaiah 13:10 mentions 'the constellations' as well, even though we don't read them precisely in Genesis; and in Moses' blessing of the Tribes of Israel, he indeed mentions something akin to photosynthesis in "the precious fruits brought forth by the sun" (Deut. 33:14) - which makes us understand that the fruits of any plant would not in fact be there in the first place had the sun been a later arrival in the creation of the Universe.

Are you lying again? Are angels part of the universe? I though according to the mythology angels reside in heaven? How exactly does a passage that talks about the angels witnessing the creation of the earth equate to the universe being created before the earth? this is a lame attempt at joing things that have nothing to do with each other at all. . .  Again you are rushing to another passages in Job that has nothing to do with the creation account in genesis that claerly says that the earth was created and was in existence before the stars were created, I will go with what the account says not your ridiculous equivocations. . .Really how does the passage in Deut. 33:14 help your case.

I will mention Isaiah 13:10 once again - "the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof" - this should help you understand that the Bible recognizes what you're on about the "other stars" being "solar systems like ours".

. . . Vairo my man, so the stars of heaven there of and constellations means other stars with solar systems eh? . . .Wetin man no go see for here. . . .Do the writers of the bible know anything about the solar system? . . . My friend you are just trying to hard. . .

And I have asked for any verse to show where the Bible says the stars were created SOLELY to give light upon the earth - where is that verse?

Here it is. . .

Gen 1:16   And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17   And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

The Bible does not draw such a conclusion; and infact, the verses you quoted do not lead to that inference. What we do read is that the stars with the other entities are ALSO meant "for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years" (Gen. 1:14). Of course, this does not mean indeed that such were the only things defining the purposes for which they were created; but it is quite dubious to force your own misgivings into the text and argue repeatedly that the stars were created SOLELY to give light upon the earth! You just can't see what's in front of your eyes even when you quoted the verses and rushed to bolden some. ha!

If the part you posted is quite different from the one I posted, the one you posted was talking about lights, mine specifically talked about the sun. . .What actually is dubious is when you keep lying through your teeth and saying things that the bible does NOT say, You keep alluding to verses that have nothing to do with the genesis creation account, I wonder why you keep doing these things. . .Keep on lying through your teeth. . . 

viaro:
No problem - if what you see is "evidence" that the Universe was not created at all, please let's see that evidence of what you allegedly saw. You have said you're not talking about ORIGINS, and I'm waiting for you to explain precisely what it is you're on about.

Aren't you tried of crying all over the place and sounding like the broken record that you truly are?. . . .I am talking about observable evidence that shows that the earth was NOT created before all the stars, Evidence that show that the universe was not created in 6 days, evidence that shows that the earth was NOT created before the sun, evidence that shows that some of the other stars are solar systems like ours, not some things that were created solely to produce light on the earth. . . .Evidence about planetary formations, evidence that shows that the stars are not placed or hanging in some elusive firmament as the bible puts it. . . .etc. . .   

Please let me know where you find it "clearly written" the way you so described above^^. Is it possible that you're trying to force your own ideas in here somewhere and then assuming that is what is "clearly written in the Bible"? In any case, please share with me.

You can not run faster than your shadow can you?. . .

Gen 1: 12  And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1: 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Its is VERY CLEARLY stated in the passage that the earth was in existence with water and plants in it before all the stars were created after words. . . .It also very clearly states that the stars were created specifically to give light upon the earth . . . .

https://www.crecalde.com/Charlie/images/milky_way_galaxy.gif

Here is the picture of the milky way galaxy with its hundreds of billions of stars (which is just one out of the many billions of the other galaxies around) that indicates the position of our solar system in the milky way, how exactly was the earth created before all the billions of stars in this galaxy? How exactly were all the billions of stars many of which are solar systems with planets revolving around them created solely to give light upon the earth as written in the bible?

For your sake, I would tacitly oblige you that it would be an assumption that the Universe was created - but there again, it is a very STRONG assumption for which I offer no apology at all. The reason for that is this: there is no science showing anywhere that the Universe was not created. NONE. In fact, when some have tried to deeply research and theorise about this, they use the term "God" affirmatively but not in the religious sense. The point is that, it is hard for such researchers and theoretical physicists to conclude that the Universe was not created, or that God did not create the Universe, or even that the Universe created itself! This is why I am asking you to show me any substance about any counter arguments to these three basic premises or any other assumptions you may make to the contrary. WHERE is it?

OK agreed the universe had a cause, Do you know what the cause of the universe is? Saying that you know what the cause of the universe is with out providing any evidence for your claims is pure bull. . . .The universe has a cause and your evidence to show that Yahweh is the cause of the universe and not something else is WHAT?. . .  .

Isn't it ironical that these "tribal people" had the common sense to say that the Universe was created?

Most other tribal people have also stated that the universe was created and that there God created the universe so what's new there? . . . . . 

Isn't it ironic that these tribal people have made the atheistic assumption of an eternal universe an absolutely redundant and most illiterate assertion that has long been abandoned?

You are still biting your tail and crying eh? Which atheistic assumption is it that says that the universe is eternal?. . .There are some theist that believe and have also stated that the earth is flat, does that represent the entire theistic position?. . .A lot of other atheist also hold to the view that the universe was created, no?. . . .Keep on biting your long tail. . .

I know you don't have anything meaningful to say so, I understand why you keep running around chasing your tail and crying at the same time. . . .

To assure you, I base my "assumption"  on what has not been refuted about what those "tribal people" asserted about the Universe having been created - more so, because NO SCIENCE ANYWHERE has contradicted them at any level! It is quite interesting that the irony escapes you that it is the atheistic assumption that was baseless and have now been abadoned, no? Let's laugh. . . three cheers!

Still chasing your tail eh? There are so many atheist that do NOT hold that view so what exactly are you crying about here? . . . .Every science everywhere has contradicted their claim that the earth with water and plants in it was created before the sun and all the stars, no? Every scientific observation also contradicted their claim of the stars created solely for the purpose of giving light on the earth, no? . . .Every scientific observation also contradicts their claim that the universe was created in 6 days, no?

Thankfully, the God I worship and believe in is not man-made (nevermind that you so like to assert the contrary). Even at that, the same God has indeed claimed that He created the Universe. I don't have any problem with your belief - I know you hold on to it in a most tenacious manner just like any religious person would; but that holds no consequences at all in the face of the fact that you have yet argued to no avail beyond your merely asserting things into science that science does not say.

When did the said God appear to you personally and told you that he created the universe?. . . .Your God is not man made as you say, pls can you point to the said God or anything it said or did, that is independent of man made stories, influence, traditions and culture?. . . .Will you just point to the said God and show that he exist  on his own independent of human influence?

I've heard you - you don't have to keep repeating that refrain as if that is what is at the heart of our discussion. I don't really like you turning round in circles and dancing away from the main points we're discussing.

And why is this not also part of the main points of the discussion?. . . .

That you don't know what created the Universe is NOT a "fact" but an excuse. It's either you're wishing that it is a 'FACT' so that no one would have to admit the obvious (that the Universe was created indeed); or you just wish to keep asserting it over and over again and appeal to absolutely nothing to commit to your postulations.

The universe was created, don't you have any other thing else to say beside this? Of course the universe had a cause, How that cause equates to your deity is what I will really want you to show. . . .So many other cultures have also stated that the universe had a cause and that it is their God not yours that created it, Why are they wrong?. . . . . .I would expect you to provide some evidence to show that your God alone created the universe. no?. . .

I think this is the fine point that I would like to leave it at. I don't know if I ever claimed anywhere to know HOW the Universe was created in terms of the details (I know a few in theoretical physics who play with such hypothesis - but it's become fashionable to hear them say that science is only a guess, the 'best gues'). Anyways, I am persuaded that a supernatural Agency created the Universe - and that supernatural Agency is what we know as God. Not only are we agreed that the Universe did not create itself; but it is most probable from many cutting edge thinking and research that "something" other than the Universe itself might have caused its origin (Stephen Hawkings, for instance, is one example I've had in mind who uses 'God' loosely without a religious connotation). Whether this is theoretically 'provable' is open to debate.

Thanks for the time, enjoy.

My friend since when did you become a deist? . . . .On a serious note now, Sure the universe did not self create, I believe it had a cause, what that cause is remains UNKNOWN to us, Scientist have ended with a singularity, What cause the singularity remains unknown. I have gone pass baseless claims and counter claims, I am more interested in specifics, God created the universe you say, the problem with this claim is that it is redundant since there are many Gods that also claim to have created the universe.

viaro:
I think my premise has been presented in many ways than one so you can easily digest. It is not an argument that the Universe had a beginning (which is a given), or that the Universe having a beginning is explained by science (another given) - but the point is this: the Universe DID NOT create itself, and as such it was created by God.

OK, Your evidence to show that your God created the universe is WHAT?. . . .Saying that your God as we are meant to believe created the universe remains an assumption.  . . . .Can you provide objective evidence to show that what ever created the universe speaks Hebrew?. . .Did that God appear to you and told you personally that he created the universe? Do you have his signature with his name on anything that was created that will show that he created the universe alone without any of the competing Gods that are also making such a claim?

If your argument is saying that God DID NOT create the Universe, I have expressed my willingness to consider your evidence for that. I don't see you presenting anything remotely close to that other than complaining here and there about which God would have created the Universe.

No God has ever claimed that he created the universe? Men posit that their various Gods created the universe.

You can't keep hiding under excuses and rhetorics - it is the best thing I know an atheist would ever do so as to escape responsibility of arguing any substance at any time. Yes, we can both say "we don't know" - that is, you don't know anything about the ORIGIN of the Universe; while I don't know the DETAILS about the origins of the Universe. But we can't both escape the basic point: was the Universe created or did it created itself. You seem to argue yourself out of the latter (the Universe created itself); and I am persuaded that the Universe was created by God.

So now its persuasions eh?

Coming back to pretend that you were only making your assertions merely on "rhetorics" makes one wonder why you even bother to argue long and hard on absolutely NOTHING. First, you told us that NOTHING created the Universe - and your evidence? NOTHING. Next you "concluded" that the Universe created itself - and your evidence? RHETORICS. If this type of behaviour is the quitessential display we should read in your approach to issues, let's all slap our backs and retire to our evening baths, yes? Yay!

You are trying so hard my friend , I have stated many many times and I have argued with you as well that my position remains "I don't know" . I have always stated that I don't know the actual cause of the universe how it was created or what brought it into existence, but what I know is that it is NOT any of the Gods of man made religion. . .When I posited that nothing created the universe it was just a rhetorical point, You KNOW it but you choose to run around shadows, Continue if it'll make you happy. The fact that you prefer to keep chasing around it is very telling. . . .

Mazaje my guy, you've been fun to talk with. . . nevermind that it took me all this time to see your dribbling was all a joke. Next time, I won't even waste this much time trying to catch up with your rhetorics.

Have fun.

I have not been dribbling, and am VERY serious here, The fact that the irony of what has transpired escapes you is completely unbelievable to me. . .Any I know, why you keep running around chasing your tail, you have nothing of value to say so dancing around my rhetorical statement is the only thing that you have left. . . .Enjoy dancing around. . .I might learn a few dance moves from you. . .

toba:
Why are u talking like an 'educated illiterate?  U asserted u are also requesting prove for an assertion that is yet to be disproved. Is this u or u re simply joking? Let me know before i make my next comment

OK sorry. . . . . . Buga created the universe. . .

which type of gas?

Nerve gas . . . .

viaro:
Yes, really. If you want to read it, we can show you in the Bible; if you are asking for another type of 'evidence', please let us know. This brash use of the word "evidence" that you have no clue about but just like to hide behind, we shall deal with it here and NOW.

The bible creation account does not agree with what I see and what has been observed, Was the earth with plants in it alone in existence before all the other stars, planets, asteroids, comets, galaxy and other cosmic bodies were created as clearly written in the bible?. . .Were the stars  created solely to give light upon the earth as your God said in genesis? Was the moon created to rule over the Night? How does a rock rule over the night?. . .If the biblical creation account is flat out wrong why should it believe when it says that the God it is talking about created the universe when the creation account of such God does not fit with the facts that we know?. . . .

Saying that your God created the universe is just an assumption, since you do not have any evidence like a video recording of the said God creating the universe or the God himself appearing to you and personally telling you that he created the universe or any of his signatures that bares his name on anything that you see around to show that he created that thing. You base your entire assumptions on what? Mythical narratives and assumptions written by unknown tribal people very long ago? People who did not even know what the stars really are?. . . . .Interesting. . .

I'm sure this is all another one of your priceless jokes. I believe the Universe was CREATED BY GOD - you believe otherwise. I am very, very willing to discuss anything with you on that subject (minus the jokes) - if you are willing to discuss. It would therefore mean that you are willing also to show evidence for your own counter argument, rather than hiding behind excuses of feigned ignorance. The Universe did NOT create itself, it did NOT emerge completely on its own - the science affirm that the Universe had a beginning and did not self-create. . . these are issues before us. If you have anything else to counter these premises, please have the freedom to share with us and play it less on the jokes you have been posting all along.

I believe that the universe was NOT created by any God(by God I mean the Gods of man made religion), since NO God has ever claimed he created the universe, Men claim that their various Gods created the universe. . . . .Sure the universe did not create it self but it wasn't also created by any of the Gods of man made religions. . .We don't know what created the universe and that remains a FACT, if you claim you know then, provide evidence simple, pointing to age long myths (that have no evidence to support them) written by men is laughable since almost every religion and culture have their own age long myths about their various Gods creating the universe. . . .

Okay, let's have it your way. If you want to argue that the Universe created itself, let's discuss that - please show us how your theories or postulations for a Universe that created itself. . . leave your irony of escapism out on this one.

On a serious note now no kiddo, The universe did not create it self that I know. But I posit that no one knows the true origin of the universe and how it was created, You can only hypothesize. If you insist that you know the true origin of the universe then its up to you to provide objective evidence to show for it. . .

toba:
Do u now know that the universe didnt create it self but was created

The universe was created by the Chinese(Tungus) God called Buga . Your evidence that he didn't cerated the universe is what?. . . .

Still same story

It seems you have now run out of gas. . .

[quote author=jesus. link=topic=450553.msg6097706#msg6097706 date=1274890081]You are making two conflicting statements @ the bolded.

your sincere u dont know but unsincere opinion nobody knows ?[/quote]No conflicting statements there at all, These statements are based on the FACT which is that NOBODY TRULY knows how the universe came about, All we have are mere speculations, some baseless and unfounded while some have some amout of evidence to back them up, but they still remain speculation nonetheless. . .If any body truly knows that origin of the universe it would have been provided already. Remember we are just getting to know what the universe truly is, It was just about 10 years ago that we discovered that some of the stars out there are solar systems with planets revolving around them just like ours. . .

That u dont know is not a crime making a generalized statement is wrong that nobody knows because you mazaje doesnt know the source of the universe. U re just being ridiculous and insincere about your view on the universe. U dont know u then want to drag 'all' into your lack of knowledge on same.

Do you know who, how and when the universe was created? If you do can you provide objective evidence for such claims? Saying that your God created the universe is nothing but a very redundant hypothesis that is of no use at all because every religion (of which there are many) also claims that its God or Goddess created the universe, Specific evidence pointing to your God alone creating the universe will do. . . .I don't have time for baseless hypothesis. . .I am more interested in people providing evidence for their claims. . . .

Science proved the genesis account wrong why cant science then tell us the source of universe till date? Science and mazaje doesnt know meaning others cant know as well? Dont forget that science have failed to provide answers to many things. Let me also conclude like u did  that u and science does not know that God created the universe

Science is taking us there gradually. . .Science remains the BEST hope for mankind, Science has done for mankind what no God will ever do for mankind. . .Again claiming that God created the universe is just redundant since there are so many Gods all claiming to have created the universe, I will like you to show  with objective evidence that your God alone created the universe.

toba:
U are just repeating same post over and over again with no sense. Stop pretending face the fact. u taught u could support your nasty assertion about the univesre creating it self when u first made it.

You should already know my position by now, I was only asking a rhetorical question, Just to get your reaction so that I can use it to point to you how illogical and baseless your arguments are. You know it but will prefer to be chasing shadows. You keep insisting that your God created the universe. I have asked you so many many times to provide a SINGLE evidence for that claim and you have consistently refused to do that. When I turn around and make the same claim, you start crying that I should provide evidence for my claims forgetting the FACT that you have NEVER provided any evidence for your baseless claims. . .

After going round the web to seek a way out u came back and turned it in to a an incredible 'irony'. We are no kids here. If u want to be serious, try to be and stop chasing shadowsEscape from proving what u have assertedI have heard this couple of times from insincere atheist like your self

You wish. . .When have you ever proved anything you have asserted here? . . .I repeat, I'll provide my evidence as soon as you provide yours. . .

viaro:
I have not posited what I was not ready to defend.

What exactly are you arguing about? That the universe had a beginning or that your God created the universe?. . .As for the universe having a begging, all scientific explanations points to that. So that's a non starter. Are you still insisting that you God created the universe?. . . .If you are still insisting can you provide evidence for your claims?. . . .Thank you. . .

On the other hand, it is laughable that you could make an assertion and when called up for it, make endless excuses that you were making a rhetorical statement.

Why are you trying so hard to make it look as if I sincerely believe in that statement.  . . . .I just dey laugh tire. Don't you see the irony?. . .The statement remains a rhetorical one, even though you wish it wasn't, You should know my position by now. . .I have stated so many times that I don't know and am OK with what the scientific  findings show. . .You on the other hand are desperately trying to make me own up to a rhetorical statement that was aimed at making you see your own illogical arguments(Which is arguing with out evidence). . .You posit without evidence and run away, but when someone does the same you begin to cry . . .So funny. . .

Just show us how the Universe came into existence entirely on its own.

I will do that immediately you provide evidence to show that your God created the universe. . . .

toba:
Let me know the ridiculous point u were trying to make

Ahhh, Ok let me explain so that you understand what am saying. You have been positing that your God created the universe, yet you have NEVER provided any evidence for such assertion but you keep repeating that mantra over and over again. I then came up with my own assertion that the universe created itself with out evidence just like you. Funny enough you fell for the bait and started asking me to provide evidence for my assertion, when you are yet to provide a SINGLE evidence for your own assertions. . . .Do you now understand why I keep saying that the fact that the irony escapes you is very laughable to me. . .

U want me to believe what viaro said that u are looking for an escape route abi?

. . .escape route to where?. . . .

U started it by concluding that the universe created it self. Kindly prove it then we follow suit. Or didnt u make the conclusion?
How come is based on logical reasoning?

Again I will show you when you provide evidence to show that your own version of God created the universe and that the universe did not create itself. . . .So after you my friend. . .

viaro:
Please mazaje, can you point us to two simple things:

(1)  how does "observable evidence" say and show that God did not create the Universe in which we live?

I keep telling you that your God gave a detailed account of how he said he created the universe, Modern cosmology with its observable evidence says that account is flat out wrong. . . .

(2)  what then is the logical conclusions about the "observable evidence" in regards to the origin of the Universe: did it create itself? If not, what then?
The implications of your answer would be pivotal and huge indeed - for one, it would help us understand whether you understand the meaning of origins; as well, it would help us see precisely what the "observable evidence" is saying and showing without your own interpolations.

Its not conclusive for now, progress is always made, I am not even talking about origins but observable evidence about what we see. The origins card is the only thing you have up your sleeve. . . .

I'm unaware of any Christian cosmologist denying the creation of the Universe.

I am aware of christian cosmologist denying what their God actually said with regards to HOW he allegedly created the universe.

Interpretating it as an allegory is not to say that the Universe was not created - these are vastly two different things.

Where in the bible does the creation account says that it is an allegory?. . .Its just like the manufactures of the BMW telling you in details how they created the the BMW 7 series but you keep insisting that they are speaking allegorically. . . . .Interpreting it as an allegory says that they disagree with what is written down when they compare it with their observable data and evidence. . . .I notice that christian cosmologist don't interpret the alleged death and resurrection of Jesus as an allegory only the genesis creation account . . . .Very telling. . . .

What we want to know is this: whatever the atheist concludes, we want simple and reasoned evidence for such assertions: if the assertion is such that the Universe created itself (not minding HOW it did so), please let the atheist simply show us evidence for a Universe that created itself - for now, the details are not really the big concern.

You keep talking about evidence as if you have ever provided any . . . .Your evidence to show that the universe did not create itself is WHAT?. . .

viaro:
He spoke the Universe into existence.

Really? I will like to see the evidence you have that show  your God speaking the universe into existence. . . .Or is this one of the baseless assertions that has no evidence for it?. . . .What language did he use? How does voice turn into matter?. . . .I will really like to know these things. . . .

If you have anything to show that the Universe created itself, I am willing to consider what evidence you may have.

Again the irony escapes you. . . .I will be right there with what I have to show as soon as you show me that the universe did not create itself. . . .

toba:
Guy dont be childish. I think we have gone past this stage of making excuses for ones statement. Im sure u didnt make a case for the universe creating it self without consciousness. U were actually going to prove some sort of new '[size=30pt]'mazaje's theory of universe creating it self'[/size] pls dont hide under any form of others' making assertions and u also wanting to do same. The theists that makes assertions do result to show u evidences which most athesits refuse to accept it that they arent empirical or materialistic. The above bolded is a big lie. If u are given evidence by the theist u purposesly turn it down.

You guys are truly funny believe me. . . .The fact that the irony of the point I was trying to make escapes you guys is truly laughable. . . . .

Now u must back up your assertion/conclusion that the universe could have created it self with any form of evidence

When you provide evidence to show that the universe did not create itself, I will be right there with my evidence to show that the universe created itself. . . .

viaro:
Absolutely NOT. . . unless you want to tell us that the best that the atheist can do is resort to rhetorics where he/she is running out of steam. It says nothing about your telling us anything about the knowledge you possess of any 'origins science' (make your pick, there are many "origins sciences" today). The basic question is this: did the Universe create itself? No one needs any 'rhetorics' to make any informed statements on that - and any "conclusions" you draw should also be questioned, NO?

Here you are asking me for evidence when you are yet to provide a SINGLE evidence for your own assertions. Again your evidence to show that the universe did not create it self is WHAT?. . . My position with regards to the origin of the universe as always been that nobody truly KNOWS, how the universe came about. I fact we do not fully know what the universe is talk more of fully knowing about its origins. It was not until about 10 years ago that we just discovered that some of the starts out there are solar systems just like our ours. . .We are yet to fully discover what the universe is. . .My sincere position is I don't know and am very ok with it. . .Any body that claims he knows should provide evidence to show for it. . . .I JUST LOVE playing the games you guys love playing that is asserting things without evidence so that you guys will see how illogical it sounds. . .

Pardon me (I know you're addressing beneli); but I wonder if any science says that God did NOT create them? That is the point we have been trying to make, mazaje - don't make science say what it does not say, for to do so is to boldly mislead your readers. If science has made any statements about "God" or "creation", then you would have a point; but to foist your own argument and plaster it on "science" saying this and that (which it does not say) becomes quite a worrisome trend to read in your posts.
And your hypothesis that the Universe created itself is even far more interesting, no?

Your God said he created the universe and he gave a detail account of how he allegedly created the universe in genesis no? Science has shown that, that hypothesis is flat out wrong. . . . .The way your god said he created the universe is still there for all to read in genesis, no?. . . .Can you provide evidence to show that the universe was truly created according to how your God said he created it in the book of genesis? Its shouldn't be a hard thing to do since the details are already there in genesis. no?

viaro:
What do you mean by 'NOT the views of atheist', mazaje? Are you trying to deny that NO ATHEIST ever held that view? What then was the prevailing view of the atheist (if any different) when such an idea was making the rounds? I really don't know what you're trying to deny here in plain sight.

I laugh, So because some atheist hold the view that the universe was eternal means all atheist hold the same view eh?. . . .Some theist also believe that the universe is eternal, no?

Maybe. But that again does not mean that NO ATHEIST held the view that the Universe had always existed, if that is what you trying to tell us here.

So what exactly are you arguing about?

Mazaje, what have I been trying to bring to your attention? If you do have anything else to show that NOTHING created the Universe, please show us your evidence. You're the only person I have come across drawing the conclusion that "the Universe created it" - and if that is different from the "origin of the Universe", please explain the difference. What I see you doing here is running wild with cheap statements and producing nothing - so, if you have anything, anywhere, any science, any other substance for concluding that the Universe created itself, please show us.

That's all you want to do it seems arguing around chasing shadows. . .My position on this is well know, I have stated MANY times that no body fully knows for sure how the universe came about. My statement was just a rhetorical statement, The fact that the irony escapes you is truly laughable. Your posit that Your God created the universe, Without providing a SINGLE evidence to show, I also posited that the universe created it self rhetorically to show you how illogical your argument is. . . .I have always stated that NO one knows how the universe came about, and as such I will prefer when people say that they don't know instead of positing hypothesis that they themselves can not defend. . . .

You must either be one mischievous fellow if you keep repeating that obvious lie. WHAT 'science' has ever made any statement on "GOD", mazaje? Does the irony escape you up until now? Look, it's easy enough: if science says nothing about God (as you yourself have admitted several times), then what is this repeated drivel foisted upon "science" to make it say what it does not? And where infact did science now affirm your own fallacy that the Universe created itself? You keep making very cheap statements and have held on to your own wild assertions for far too long - that, my dear friend, is a faith thicker than my finger.

Scientist have provided some empirical evidence (at least) with regards to the nature of the universe and how its is evolving, Some of them even theorize their own origin of earth with some evidence to show for they theories, Those evidence can be observed and verified to some extent, when those observable evidence are compared with the way your God said he created the universe we see that your God's account of creation does not match any of the observable evidence and as such can be said to have been shown to be flat out wrong by scientific findings and observations. . . .

Please don't put words in my mouth, otherwise you will be showing how desperate you are! I did not discount the word of the God I worship - and yes, I affirm that God created the Universe. You, on the other hand are seriously breaking wind all over the place with strawman that even you cannot defend. Where is your evidence that the Universe created itself?

Still chasing after your tail? . . . .Ohh so the creation accounts in genesis is truly how the universe came around eh?. . . Why does the observable and scientific evidence point to another direction?. . . .Affirming that God created the universe is nothing but chasing shadows, Since all religions claim that their own version of God alone created the universe, I am only interested in discussing specifics. Your God very CLEARLY STATED how he created the universe in the bible, can that creation account stand scientific testing?. . . Do all the observable evidence we see show that the universe was created that way?. . . . .

More piffling from you. Even if for the sake of an argument, I let you set God aside from the discussion for the moment, please show me your own evidence for your assertion that the Universe created itself - that is what we want to see you prove FLAT OUT RIGHT! If you cannot show this, then shut up - I told you before that you don't pay tax for making noise, especially on things you can't defend.

The irony still escapes you. . . . You keep saying that your God created the universe without providing any evidence to show, I then asked a rhetorical question, It seems its only right for you to posit things without evidence but turn around and start crying when the same logic you are using is turned around on you. . . .Your evidence to show that the universe did NOT create itself is WHAT?. . . .Read between the lines and see what am getting at. . .

beneli:
That, my dear good friend, is an opinion that is flawed on so many many levels.

You are beginning to sound like you're cornered and even recognise how ungrounded the so called 'atheistic evidences' against the existence of our God, are. 'Why can't the universe create itself? You ask, well for one the materialistic universe is Not sentient. Secondly the universe (at least the materialists one) must succuomb to all the laws of physics.

You are getting it wrongly my friend. This is just a rhetorical question, Since you guys boldly asserts things without ANY evidence I also can assert things without evidence, no?

For your information 'new stars' are NOT 'emerging out in the cosmos on their own without anything creating them'. At least that's not whta the 'science' says. Each 'star' within a particular 'universe' is all part of the space-time-matter-energy soup farted out by white holes. Pardon the pun, i just couldn't resist it! That, my good friend, is one of the postulates of your 'science'.

You are also getting it wrongly the science does not say any God created them, That is the point I was trying to make. . . .

In the beginning God created.

According to the hypothesis your God created the earth with plants in it before the sun and all the stars out there. . .Very interesting. . ,

viaro:
You're quibbling. The choice is simple and you can't be falling all over yourself on that. It is either the Universe has always existed (which many atheists have held until that idea self-destroyed and became redundant)

This was the view of many cosmologist in the past NOT the views of atheist. Different atheist have different views on the origin of the universe.

or the Universe had a beginning and was brought into existence. The best you can do is quibble forever on the basic question and deny all you want - but after all your arguments, you will still have to come back again to the starting point: the Universe did not emerge on its own. Beyond that point, just quibble on.

Ohh so now its about arguing about the origins of the universe again, And here I was thinking you had evidence to show that a particular version of God created the universe.

You see the problem with letting your atheism run wild. You blow hot and cold about the creation of the Universe; when others give their own persuasion that the Universe did not emerge on its own but was created by God, you ask for evidence. Meanwhile, you conclude that the Universe created itself . . . and your evidence is . . . NOTHING! Well done, my man! Your faith is superior to the last thing I heard yesterday!

Which of the Gods created the universe?  I am not really interested in any vague or wild claim of God created the universe. I am interested in specific claims. All the Gods that we constantly talk about on this forum(Allah and Yahweh) have talked about how they created the world in details. . . .Scientific and observable observations say those accounts are false. . . .Just like other christian cosmologist, you on one hand discard the supposed words of your God on how he SAID he created the universe because the account is ridiculous and has NO evidence to support it, but still claim that your God still created the universe. How so. . . .The genesis creation account is FLAT OUT WRONG when compared to the observable and scientific evidence. . . .

toba:
Do u have evidence that the universe indeed created it self? All evidences available points that the universe must have been designed by a designer. Prove that the universe designed it self

And why must the universe behave like the human society where everything must have a creator? Why can't the universe create itself? Nothing has been shown to have created the universe, So many things have been alleged to have created the universe without any evidence at all. . . .We see new stars emerging out in the cosmos on their own without any thing creating them. . . .Since nothing has ever been shown to have created the universe i concluded that It created it self(my opinion of course). . . .I am not supposed to be arguing with you since I know that you god did not create the universe, the universe he created in in genesis 1. . . .That is not the universe we see and live it. . .

viaro:
The one thing I often notice is that atheists also assert their own "faith", and it does not matter how much they want to deny that it is "faith". The basic question thus far is this: did the Universe create itself; or was it created by "another"? Leaving all "faiths" aside, where is the evidence that the Universe created itself?

So far NOTHING has been shown to have created the universe. . . .NOTHING. . . .If you have any evidence to show that anything created the universe just point to that thing and show how or when it was creating or when it created the universe. . . .Your evidence to show that the universe did not create it self is WHAT?. . . .

Jenwitemi:
I've heard this arguement being made by cristians in some of these endless debates about creation that scientists can't create out of nothing when they do their genetic manipulation voodoos. And i thought to myself, "well, the bible god cannot, either".

According to genesis, the creation of adam and eve did not come out of nothing. Adam was formed out of the EARTH (a big SOMETHING), and Eve was formed out of Adam's RIB (another SOMETHING).

In a nutshell, not even God(the jewish version, anyway) can create something out of nothing. The implication of that being that the bible god was an ancient genetic engineer just like the ones we have today.

I just thought that i should let that one out of the bag.

According to the bible Yahweh created the universe from nothing, how exactly he did it, no body even wants to attempt to answer it, the mantra is that Yahweh just created the universe from nothing even when observable evidence clearly says and shows that he did not create the universe in which we live, because the way he said he created the universe does not agree with what has been seen and observed. . . .Christian cosmologist agree that the creation accounts in the bible are mythical but they still insist that yahweh created the universe even when they themselves have relegated the creation accounts of Yahweh to the realm of mytholgy(allegory). . . .I just don't understand how they do these things. . .They seem to enjoy speaking from both sides of their mouths. . . .

viaro:
(c) Both ^^ creatio ex nihilo and creatio ex materia are found in the Bible.

How did the bible God create the milky way galaxy for example from nothing?

wirinet:
You will agree with me that the statues of Jesus could not be an accurate representation of Jesus, since none of his statue or bust was known to have been made, unlike Caesar or other important roman personalities, so that leaves a question of where the statues came from.

Not just that, the entire historical Jesus story remains a great mystery.

Firstly, The bible has stories of Jesus performing lot of miracles in the presence of many thousands of people. So I want to know. . .How come not one person thought, “Wow what a great man and what a great miracle. I need to write that down in my journal.”? How come no local philosophers or scribes during that time(of which there were many) thought these miracles were worthy of mention at all? The gospels came very long and were written by people whose identity remains unknown. . . .

If you're gonna make something up and pretend it was real, it helps immensely to put the said story far enough in the past to be sure there won't be anybody who can say "Hey, I was there and that wasn't what happened." Hence the delay for like 50, 60 and about 100 years before the stories were written down.

thehomer:
daviddylan's question was on how the earth came in to existence. So I was speaking of the formation of the earth. From observations of planet and star formation in the cosmos, there is a difference between this and the opinions proffered in the bible.

Exactly what I was telling my man but he was busy running around as usual. . .

^^

Nothing do you my man, we disagree all the time but I always enjoy having you around. . .

viaro:
When people make these very sob replies, I laugh and leave them to fool themselves further. Apart from being so dubious (which I never dreamed was possible of you), you simple refused to show me anything about what I requested. The posts are still up there - make of them what you will, I sometimes never take you any seriously these days.

You are the one that is being dubious my friend, but I will just allow you to keep running after your shadow. . .Lets see if you can run faster than it. . .Your request had NOTHING to do with the topic of discussion but rather a cheap escapist tactics. . . .

Where does science - any science - say a word about 'God'? This is the irony that escapes you. First you admit that science does not argue about God; but mazaje would rather foist his own wild misplaces ideas upon science to make it say what it does not say, innit? Perhaps that explains why up until now you can't show anything beyond just sounding like a broken record. Enjoy the endless loop.

True science does not say anything about God but science has SHOWN that Yahweh the God we are talking about here did NOT create the universe, The way he said he created the universe is there for all to see, That is why I keep repeating that Christians cosmologist agree and as such they have relagated Yahweh's creation narrative to the cofines of mythology by saying its an allegory. . . As usual you wouldn't want to address that part, you'll always prefer to be chasing your tail. . . .Enjoy

Please mazaje, just show us where science ever infers that the UNIVERSE was not created. That is all I ask - show that simple thing and save the rest. WHY is that such a problem for you personally? I am more interested in the science - that's all. If you can't show the science, just shut up. You don't pay tax for making noise - so continue if that is all you want to do. But if you have any substance, calmly walk me through such a "science", that's all.

The question is not about if the universe was created or not, the question is about if God(The Christian God) created the universe, and if that assertion can be supported by science, That is the argument here not your equivocations. If we are to go by the way he said he created the universe then science has shown that he did not create the universe, because his creation account is flat out false. . . .

I guess you're describing what you do in your day job, hehe. Mazaje, just don't make me laugh (by the way, if you are in touch with toneyb, could you help connect us? I lost the e-addy he left me and have regretted not emailing him).

Dey there . . . .

viaro:
I offered you a very simple outline earlier, you ranted all you wanted and yet produced absolutely nothing for your arguments. Nevermind the duplicity of trying to read your own argument into thehomer's posts, I went ahead to simplify it for you again in post #53, and yet again you baulked. Why do you guys play fast games and after all the noise you end up with such blowouts? Dude, please go it easy on your flat tyres - if you don't have anything to say, just shut up.

You offered nothing at all, all you did as usual was to take a point and try to give it a meaning of your own, i tried to simplify the argument for you but as usual instead of addressing it you went your usual way of chasing you very long tail. . .keep on keeping on, Keep chasing your shadow and lets see if you can run faster than it. . . .

You must be on cheap gin. What 'science' argues anything about God anywhere? This is worse than straight lying without shame on your part. I shoulda known you won't bring anything to the table for serious discussion - that is why you will make so much noise about science up and down the street and yet confuse yourself all the more.

Science does not argue about any God but it shows that the God hypothesis needs to be relagated to its myth status. . .Example modern astronomy as relegated the way your god (and other gods) said the created the universe to the cofines of mythology as such christain cosmologist have relegated the narrative of their God to the realm of mythology by stating that the way he said he created the universe is an allegory. . . .

No worries, mazaje. . . I still hold this part of your post as the only honest remark you made tonight:
Enjoy plenty.

. . . .I know you are more intrested in chasing your tail and trying to see if you can run faster than your shadow. . Enjoy. . . .  

So, if science does not argue about God, you deem to foist your own argument of God to make science say what it does not? Please take a careful look at your signature - you may need it just about here: "Pretending 2 know things that you don't know is d lifeblood of religion". . . which makes me wonder that you have a religion already that simply does not know what it wants to argue.

Sure science does not talk about any god but it does show and tell us that the creation accounts that all the Gods of man made religions have inspired or are FALSE. . . .

^^

Long talk with no substance at all, as usual you prefer chasing shadows. . . .The point is simple, The God they were talking about there is the God of the bible whom davidylan says created the universe, thehomers objection to that claim was modern astronomy which simply shows that the universe was NOT created by that God since the way that God said he created the universe is all there for all to read in the book of genesis. . .You can deny it all you want with all you long epistles, but it does not change the fact of what thehomer was talking about. . .

viaro:
You didn't explain anything, and again just ignored what I pointed out so you could post hastily.

Let me make it simple for you: where is the science of astronomy that argues that the UNIVERSE created itself? Please deal with that simple question - that is what I replied to thehomer to help sort out.

Where did thehomer say that astronomy says that the universe created it self?. . . . .His answer to davidylan was simple. Modern astronomy shows that the creation account of how his God said he created the universe is false. . . . .As usual you will not want to address that instead you will always prefer to run around talking about God  as a broad entity as if the God you believe in did not give you and others a detailed account of how he allegedly created  the universe.

If you can't deal with that question, please don't try to entertain me with long evasive complaints. Give me the answer from the so-called "science of astronomy". Next time learn to digest posts before you hastily reply.

Just where did thehomer state that  the science of astronomy stated any of the things you are talking about? His answer was clear and it he was referring to a particular God, and he used modern astronomy as his evidence against that particular God hypothesis. . .

^^
You are getting it wrongly. . .When thehomer was talking about God, he is talking about the God of the bible who davidylan believes in, The God who's creation account is written in the book of genesis. . . .When davidylan talked about God(God of the bible of course) creating the universe thehomer then pointed to the fact that mordern astronomy shows that the creation account which the bible God whom davidylan believes created the universe is wrong. . . .The universe did NOT come about that way from observable evidence. . . . .Which God are you talking about? If you are talking about the bible God and how he said he created the universe we can then takes his words and how he said he created the univese and compare it with the observable evidence and see if they match. .  .They don't. . . .And that is the point thehomer was talking about. . . .Science does not say that any God created or did not create the universe but it sure tells us that the creation account we have of the  many Gods such as Allah, Yaweh, Zeus etc creating the universe are FALSE. . . .Even Christain cosmologist have relagated the creation accounts in genesis to allegories. . . .Very telling. . . .