₦airaland Forum

Unfortunately, the idea of probing politicians will continue to remain a fantasy for a long time. The average Nigerians are just not intelligent enough to unite against corruption. Majority of them are very selfish (which is normal), shortsighted and content with sub standards thus, they will rather sell their votes for a few cup of rice or 50k as it was the case in one of the states.

Fashola and Akpabio are by far the best governors in Nigeria, still you can't convince me they didn't take a few cuts (at least one) from some of the completed projects. Yet, the average Nigerian is happy to ignore it and just go about his/her business as long as they have something to show for it. Any criticism of any governor are often met with abuse and accusation of tribalism or partisan .

The last straw for me was two days ago, when a poster told me how it isn't a great idea to probe lagos state government on some of the big projects, out of fear of being taken to cleaners(Part of me died).

That's great. God bless Nigeria.

omonnakoda:
I agree we need more information and so we cannot draw any conclusions such as "IT IS EXPENSIVE" as you have done. Let us leave it as we need more information that is the objective approach.

I think you guys took my posts as conclusive, which wasn't the intention.
At least we can agree we need more info, so it's all good.

Some easy things are not too hard to comprehend. *Face palm*.

omonnakoda:
You cited an article which gave two examples with one twice the price of the other which would suggest that there is a wide variability in the cost of such projects. I do not think there is enough information to say the Lagos Project is "so expensive" . That is just an illogical leap. Besides the article is not categorical but conditional in its reporting as "factual" the French figure but you appear to elevate it to fact without looking into what you are doing is a like for like comparison.

eg why is HS 2 twice the cost of the French one Does that make it "expensive" or just representative of an entirely different et of circumstances e.g if you are building in un-built areas is it the same as building through areas that are built up.
Also what is the contract structure ? Is it a build and deliver or are there other service arrangements involved. In Nigeria it is unlikely to be powered by electricity so we need to be cautious with off the cuff comparisons

Another one missing the point. Read my replies to others and understand the context of my argument.
As shortsighted as the approach may be, I still maintain we need more information on Lagos project.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3010361/HS2-cost-nine-times-French-line-50billion-rail-project-hold-say-Lords.html#article-3010361

omonnakoda:
I have looked at the link you provided and either you did not read the story or you deliberately were economical with facts. The story is about High speed two or HS2 in England and a comparative discussion of why HS2 is costing twice as much. You should have added that information for honesty and balance. Anyway the French model of finance is not explicit from the article and these things are usually complex . What you have is a model where investors are getting a 50 year concession. It is NOT the same as a transactional arrangement where government awards a contract for a piece of infrastructure. In other to compare two situations we must have all the details to be sure we are indeed comparing like for like. Taking your article at face value it would seem there is a wide range of cost possibility from the French example to twice that cost in the HS 2 example. I do not then see how you can suggest the French example is a typical one

Busy at the moment, might provide you with more information. It was quite a controversial topic.

mapet:
1. If the aim of your argument was to raise a political question about deliberate overbudget, then your posers are inadequate and I thought we (some posters and myself pointed that out) How will costs in Nigeria be comparable to France for example? If you consider that almost the entirety of the capital costs are sought abroad in our case, expertise is gotten at a premium, our weak dollar vs. naira exhange rate, time lost in needless government bureaucracies, the risks factor built into cost of financing considering our environmental challenges (Fear of BH & ND restive youths), perceived instability in our government and policies etc. A typical french government will secure financing at probably single digit, while we get financing in region of 25%. That alone changes the basis of comparison.

2. A comparison of Project by km/mile simply gives you a poser to further dig down into the constituents when comparing countries. It tells a gives various people information that can be interpreted in many ways. A typical investor could choose to invest in France, if the cost per mile is cheaper, hence he requires less funds compared to doing same in Angola. A typical Nigeria government sees it from the POV of high cost of project financing that translates into longer term PBP and ROI, hence the need to look at the variables.

3. I tell you, it's simply intellectually lazy to do a brazen comparison without a level of adequacy on data to justify landed assumptions. Yes you want to call for probity, but we don't want to do that and allow government to take us to the cleaners.

You do like to state many painful obvious don't you?. I do agree to the lazy approach narrative, due to lack of contextual perspectives used in estimating the project....... However, what the comparison shows is a need to ask why the cost is so expensive.
Perhaps, I should make my position clear by saying any project with a budget of this magnitude($Billions) must be made available to the public.
There is a reason freedom of information act require big project's budget to be made available to a sect of UK public. Go figure .
Regardless of contextual perspectives we need more information. I feel strongly about corruption, so we will not agree on this.

I found this comment from DM interesting, "They said the target price for phase one of HS2 gives an average cost of around £90million per kilometre. The French TGV network cost £9.7million a kilometre." Goodluck convincing the British not to demand an answer from their government just because "comparison of projects between two country is flawed".
Spare me the obvious and have a good day.

dafuturis:
Magnificent...... When completed should be the tallest in west Africa

Ghana is planning to build a 75 storey building, so I doubt it be the tallest. Potentially, it is looks like it might be the most beautiful in Afirca.

arresa:
Fact is, your comparison was flawed and misguided since the cost of everything associated with any kind of construction varies in any environment.

The places you mentioned obviously produces nearly all the tools and materials needed and they definitely won't be shipping labor and materials across the ocean like the folks in Lagos and Ogun have to contend with, then you still have to contend with terrain, needed stations, bridges and countless other contingencies that you can not put any kind of price tag on.

Again, you comparison was flawed and misguided even at least due to the fact that you have zero idea per what's on the table to be done, why and how and until you are able to do just that, you have nothing credible to base your analysis on.

The ridership numbers available on the ground daily means this project is capable of paying off whatever loan secured in less than 10 years while pumping tons of money into the local economy with goods and services going back and forth with ease and taxes into state coffers...

I never said the tool was accurate enough to declare the result conclusive. This is a common sense regardless of any management understanding. Any form of cost comparison without any privilege to a more detailed budget will always be a 'flawed' fancy estimate. However, depending on the result, they can help in forcing a government to justify their spending as it was the case in England.
My opinion is that, we shouldn't fold our hands and wait till the government provide us with more detailed budget, of which you will find rarely happens.
I mean what do you suggest? That we should only care about the ROI of the project and ignore everything else out of fear of being taken to cleaners.
The point is, with more transparency there is no way the government can take everyone to cleaners(They are not that smart).
There is no arguments about the benefit of this project to both Lagos and Ogun state, but my reservations still remains due to little or no information on the spending.
Anyways, as much as I understand your points we are arguing at the opposite end of the spectrum here, so I think we should agree to disagree.
Have a great day.

mapet:
Bros,

A lot of issues comes into costs, hence your too direct comparison falls flat. Are we able to pull the kind of funding the French, British and other advanced world can put together in a jiffy at the state of our economy? A typical Nigerian bank even the Zenith and GTs of this world will syndicate such loans with foreign consortium unlike a single HSBC or Bank of England that can single handedly finance a project 5times that magnitude; hence the cost begins to extend.

For me, I think we should look at the delivery/value side. Chasing the cost side argument is a lost cause. How long can the project pay itself. 7years? 10years? How does it impact the economy of the coverage areas, in terms of direct inflow of revenue and complimentary/secondary value in job provision, catalyzing ancilliary industries, Capital knowledge transfer and increase in government take. A friend of my always jokes that the "Jinbei" (Chinese subterfuge of Toyota Hi-Ace bus) is the consequence of Toyota's "misadventure" in China. What do we make of he "Misadventures" coming into Nigeria?

A lot of issues comes into costs, oh really (*Surprised*)? Let's come to a tangent for a second. The aim of the comparison was to raise more political question about any deliberate over budget. In other word, I am more concerned about the ethical side of the project.
Comparisons using a division of the project by km/miles offer a semi accurate comparison, and are often use by most people with no access to the budget.
Similar comparison were made between SUD Europe and HS2 rail projects.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/feb/09/high-speed-2-project-french-railway-construction
with the enormous cost of this project, even the flawed benefit-cost ratio falls to just above one: the level at which the cost to the public purse equals the forecast benefit to the economy.

mapet:
Ok @ toxin, tell me you were discribing a Nollywood fantasy in the bolded and not you

Nollywood fantasy indeed . Let me give you a snippets, I am a quant trader with a few analyst under my wing(I sell bull crap). Unfortunately, I am sure you can find a couple of my topic (2007 ) giving a bit more details on my background. At the end of the day the quote 'stay true to yourself' holds true here, and won't change my persona offline.
That is as far as I will go on this subject.
Perhaps. you should sign up to ]https://www.quantnet.com, you might catch a Nigerian or two deceiving themselves and others about who they are not.

musiwa94:


I change my mind, because they show me the picture.,
I knew why they were asking me question because I am the emperor of the country of the Independent country of the Kingdom of Western Nigeria.

I doubt you are musiwa, as you are too calm for me. Becomrich was a crazy guy

IVORY2009:
I will soon expose you now, with the website/link where you got your DP picture frm, Irunoobo and searching4lovee same user

Please do . I bet the guy is shaking in his trouser

dickrider:

Enjoy the attention, as long as you don't scam people. The girl in your Dp is not pretty enough anyways.

dickrider:

You are not the one in your DP, you ugly confused bisexual.

Hmm

Nothing will happen to Gej anyways. He has immunity to corruption

Hmm becomrich/musiwa part of your prophecy came to pass, it seems.
This guy need to come back

presh247:
I have heard of people just been "friends" no strings attached but are involved sexually and the guy pays for the service atimes too.

Is such a relationship the best or is it another form of prostitution?

What is your view on this?

Well... yes It is when you are still young. Not the best in the long run, I would imagine.

paulibling:
i am an original IGBO. This post is to commend the good work on the rail track from both state. I salute the governors.

That's the way forward. Thanks.

David Cameron the leader of a country with an economy 4 times that of Nigeria, does it all the time with no fuss. Shows how disconnected Nigerian politicians are..

You are welcome

989900:
You can't decipher if it's too high or too low, until you have the details.

OTOH, subsidy funds in the past 4 years alone, could finance 12 of similar project.

You are right. To be honest, I made that comments based on similar project in western world. Sud Europe Atlantique fast train in france, is a 302km project with a cost of $8.49 billion=$28million per km.
For comparison, Google map shows the distance between Lagos VI and Abeokuta to be 103km, which means a $23million per Km($2.4Billion).
The trip between both end of the 302km is expected to take around two hours and ten minutes, which means in order to match that Lagos train must take the journey in ~45minutes. Unless Lagos state is buying ultra fast modern train, I doubt they will achieve such a feat?
When you factor the overhead cost, the quality of the train in France, then it's very easy to see why the project cost of Lagos rail is puzzling.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/feb/09/high-speed-2-project-french-railway-construction
Many rail project with similar distance don't even come close to that price.

D1Wonder:
interesting! $2.5 billion dollars for how many kilometres of rail, what type of rail system, what type of trains on top? is this a brand new rail or its going to be on existing line? There are more questions to ask...who are the major contractors, financiers etc. its unfortunately that Nairalanders are not calling people to accountability before the project commences. We just take news hook, line and sinker and complain later.....I siddon look o

Yeah we need more information. The cost is way too high.

7lives:
The barbarians or should I say cannibals want to lord themselves over others by annexing other people's lands, had they succeed the whole southern Nigeria would have become the colony of Biafra thank God for Awolowo reading and understanding their plan and foiled it.
This same agenda that Nnamdi Azikiwe pursued to become the premier of south west that failed and he started screaming tribalism, is also what Ojukwu pursued and failed hence the hatred for Awolowo and of late Tinubu.
Biafrans or whatever they called themselves are land grabbers, arrogant barbarians who look down on other peoples way of lives as stupid and so must be subservient to Biafra, pure expansionism, wickedness.

Insightful. Hopefully, some of the comments here will change the mentality of biafra supporters on Nl.

bayulll01:
You see NLnder this useless mofo is suffering from what I called chronic low esteem,no one cares if you have 4 Phd,you talk like a slowpoke,so pathetic you are a silly goat,with ur pHd what have u done to your life,what have you done to your people,what have you done to your communities,what have you invented,what value have you added to your families,useless mofo

In the real world, I wouldn't have the time for your type. With my achievements couple with some of my contributions to Nigeria and Africa, I consider it stupid to divulge further in my business.
Edit: The fact you even asked those questions made me smile.
Go and worry about your life and stop questioning someone enjoying everything life has to offer.
If you quote me again, you will be making a fool of your self esteem, which I will rightly ignore.

OkutaNla:
Hope you now understand the true picture of what transpired and can see through the lies some disgruntled elements are spreading about Awo.

Just saw this. Yeah I can, Indeed. Really proud to be a Yoruba, what we stand for, our history and many more.
I am hoping another Awolowo will surface from Yoruba. Some of the visions he had was way ahead of his time.

bayulll01:
Useless mofo maybe you were drinking when you typed those poo over there,read your comment again and see who is mentally deranged between u and me,olodo

Olodo got a first class and did his DPhil in one of the best universities in the world. In addition, he is a manager of a world renowned firm. I laugh at your stupidity.
Don't ever quote me again.

OkutaNla:
@ micktoxin: hope you noticed that my initial response to your question about Awo was later edited/updated to address in his true position on the starvation policy during the civil war and the £20 controversy? If you didn't you might want to revisit that post for further details.

I surely did. Hopefully all the tribalist on Nl can give it a read.
Thanks again.

bayulll01:
Dislike awo,who cares so he should sit and allow yiiboss to conquer lagos and latter rub it to our face that we are lazy,ibo wanabe if u like hate him who cares

From your comment I can easily tell you have a mental capacity of a 14 years old. Go and get a good education to help your poor comprehension skills.
An intelligent man would've known I didn't know much about what happened. If truly, Awolowo had killed those people out of selfishness or greed then it is only right I view him in a bad light. Thank God he didn't and he still remains the greatest leader Africa has ever seen. I doubt you are educated enough to appreciate his vision either. So run along young man.

[quote author=OkutaNla post=34131464][/quote]That was really an amazing read. I do appreciate it.

Rawani:
Glad you agree to stick to the topic. Cheers.

Let me help you out. What do you make of this rail project? Not too hard to comprehend I would've thought.