₦airaland Forum

Horlufemi:
Bro I'm confused should we use Abraham example to tithe or use Isrealites example or Jacob's or that of the Pharisees Christ mentioned.

I've studied tithing so much to know

1. Abraham gave 10% of the spoils of war and returned the 90%. He only tithed once.

2. That the Isrealites gave tithe as (a). farm produce only, (b). Once a year and (c). To widows and orphans every third year.

3. Jacob's tithing was conditional. "If you can bless me and make me come back". The "if " negates it being a commandment.

4. The Pharisees I'm sure didn't tithe money cos Christ mentioned "you tithe of mint and herbs in your little gardens".

5. When Christians are instructed to give to the poor, they aren’t commanded to give “the poor tithe.” Instead, they are instructed to be generous in helping those in need (Acts 2:43–47; 4:32–37; 11:27–30; Gal. 2:10; 1 Cor. 16:1–4; 2 Cor. 8:1–9:15). For example, 1 Corinthians 16:1–4—a passage often cited in popular circles in support—doesn’t mention tithing; it relates to a one-time gift for poor saints in Jerusalem.
6. Then finally I would love to tithe if there are Levites available to collect them today. Unless you want to prove to me that pastors today are Levites, which we all know they aren't unless we wish to twist the scriptures to fit our narrative.

You arent even an Israelite to want to give tithe. Even you dont live and earn your livelihood from the grounds of Israel to want to give tithe. You are not a farmer, engaged in agriculture nor are you a breeder or tender of livestock to want to give tithe from them. Are you aware that Levitical tithes are only given and accepted in Israel?
If at all, its proven to you that pastors today are Levites, how would you justify your keeness and preparedness to give tithe? What condition(s), what box(es) would you say, you've ticked that qualifies you to give tithe?

budaatum:
They "knew Yahweh" but "didnt know Yahweh in context"

If I claim to know Yahweh but don't know Yahweh in context, would you not claim I don't know Yahweh at all? And if I don't know Yahweh in context please explain to me how I'd different Yahweh's voice from me just tripping?

MuttleyLaff, switch on your brain please, I beg you! You are tripping!

OK

budaatum:
So, they did not fully know Yahweh, right, and knew just a bit about Yahweh, and could have mistaken the voice in their head for the voice of a god just as you misunderstand the bible sometimes?

I'm seriously worried about you muttley. In your attempt to swindle others, you can't but help swindling yourself and it can't be healthy. Seek help, I advise you!

They knew Yahweh alright budaatum, but didnt know Yahweh in the context of what the name means, entails and/or what it is all about

budaatum, now you have got me seriously worried about you. budaatum where and when have you found MuttleyLaff solicit for money, or indulge in any activity here on Nairaland or elsewhere in private and public to have pecuniary gain?

JujuSugar:
Hmmmm....
https://www.nairaland.com/4990896/why-did-god-tell-abraham/4
MuttleyLaff: Jephthah clearly stated in Judges 11:31a that if its human or animal that comes out to meet, such will be dedicated to God's purpose, then went on in Judges 11:31b to qualify his earlier pronounced vow, that, if it happens to be an animal, then it animal will be given up as a burnt offering to God

JujuSugar: Twisting the scriptures to suit your argument - Christian logic #101
Sir Muttley, @bolded please specify exactly where in the bible Jephthah indicated this exemption...

JujuSugar your wish, is my command. Let's go there. Now, what Jephthah did in Judges 11:31 was to conflate two vows, making this appear to an untrained and/or unsuspecting eye to be one vow.

Judges 11:31, as a matter of fact and truth, is a coded verse, wrapping up or encompassing two vows

Then it shall be, that whatsoever comes forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon,
shall surely be the LORD'S,
and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.
- Judges 11:31

Vow #1:
"whatsoever comes forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S"

Vow #2:
"and I will offer it up for a burnt offering."

Judges 11:31, in relation to the above two vows, is explained like this:

Referring to Vow #1:
Whatsoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me shall surely be the LORD'S (i.e. will be given over to God devoted to service)

Referring to Vow #2:
Better still, or if it happens to be an IT (i.e. an animal AND NOT a human being) then I will offer IT, the animal up for a burnt offering
This will be and/or serve as a bonus.

³⁴When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter came out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy.
She was his one and only child; he had no other sons or daughters.
³⁵When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish.
“Oh, my daughter!” he cried out. “You have completely destroyed me! You’ve brought disaster on me!
For I have made a vow to the Lord, and I cannot take it back.”
³⁶And she said, “Father, if you have made a vow to the Lord,
you must do to me what you have vowed, for the Lord has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites.
³⁷But first let me do this one thing: Let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin
- Judges 11:34-37

We can see from the above Judges 11:34-37 verses, that when Jephthah's daughter came out to meet him, father and daughter instantly knew the fate of the daughter is now a lifetime of celibacy (i.e. she now never will marry & she'll be sexually abstinent) and dedication to God (i.e. as per vow #1)

Moving forward it needs to be recognised and understood that the "it" in Judges 11:31b, is referring to an animal and not a human being or Jephthah's daughter because instead of a gender-specific pronoun insertion, it is a gender-neutral pronoun, that is in the verse

³⁷And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.
³⁸And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.
³⁹And it came to pass at the end of two months,
that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man.
And it was a custom in Israel,
⁴⁰That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.
- Judges 11:37-40

Lastly, there, up above is the concrete and scriptural evidence in Judges 11:39, that though there was a bit of delay in paying vow #1,
it eventually got paid when Jephthah's daughter after two months, gave herself up to her fate of a lifetime "seminary work" in God's presence or temple

Vow #2 however was a DOA, as God is not interested and doesnt accept human burnt offerings anyways.
No animal, acceptable as a burnt offering to God, came out to meet Jephthah so nothing to offer as burning offering here
Vow #2 JujuSugar, is not binding, as no animal, so no contest with vow #2

JujuSugar:
MuttleyLaff: I numerous times already have, but because you do selective reading, you only read what you want to see and believe

JujuSugar: LMAO. I've caught you, Mr. Muttley
Please point to the part of Judges chapter 11 where Jephthah made an exception for sacrifice IF it was an animal that came out. Don't dodge this please. I'm waiting....

JujuSugar, you are biting more than you can chew and stomach here with this request you are making. You've so far had your feet wet, why are you keen in going in to the deep end. What are you waiting for, who are you waiting for. Dont you know that when you look at the dark, you ought be careful because the dark looks back?

I will take you down pitch dark, you dont really want to go down to. Right, there is an "or" I didnt mention, that's before the "if" in Judges 11:31b JujuSugar. Go research or check out the meaning of "conjunctive waw" is all I'll say. Anything more than what I've already and so far shared, is going to be information overload and we both know what information overload means

It's not now, its not today, its not yesterday, it's not last year, I've been taken part in talking about Jephthah, that is why I said earlier that this Jephthah controversy has been flogged enough times over and long time laid to rest many years ago, on nairaland, and so wondering why, some are still tearing hairs out and getting hard-ons over it. I've been there, sold it, done it and have the "Jephthah controversy" souvenir t-shirt I bought that reminds me.

JujuSugar:
Proof?...

I typed:"Please watch my mouth and read my lips. There was no incident of burnt human being offering sacrificed to God by Jephthah" and you still are asking for proof. Well, just as I had told LordReed and equally same to Dantedasz earlier than LordReed, Jephthah NEVER and DID NOT use his daughter as a burnt offering anyway, this is because human burnt offering is an anathema to God and Jephthah knew this and so never did he nurse any plan nor had any intention of offering God a human burnt offering. Besides burnt offering the Israelites practised, always had to do with animals anyways, and never had anything to do with human being sacrifices. If God had numerous times categorically told the Israelities that he is against human burnt offering, child sacrifices and/or ritualistic killing of children, what kind of chest and boldness will Jephthah have to think he can curry favour from God with such a dastardly act?

You'll always have my undivided attention and I am available to be frisked and cross examined anytime by you JujuSugar
cc budaatum, frank317, Dantedasz, CreepyBlackpool, LordReed, CodeTemplar

budaatum:
So perhaps go back to where I said poor Abraham could be mistaking his old gods for Yahweh, after all, Yahweh had not fully made itself known even a few generations after Abraham was long dead!

budaatum, you will know the Yoruba colloquial that goes like this: "Ma fi han ẹ leni, nkan ti orukọ mi jẹ, iwọ kan jọ jẹ duro demi, iwọ na ma gba" loosely translated means "I will show you today, what my name is all about, you just wait and hang about, you will see a terrific demonstration of it today, you'll be awed"

budaatum, that is not what that verse is talking about. The verse is messaging that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob knew God as All-Powerful or Omnipotent but they never got to know, they never got to witness, they never got to see a demonstration of what it means to be Yahweh. They knew him to be Yahweh, but God, in respect of that name, did not make Himself fully known to them

JujuSugar:
Muttley, save all this corny remarks of yours for when you've come back with legitimate arguments. But be warned....
It would be a shame to return back to this thread as you're leaving now: clueless, without reasonable counter arguments, resorting to cringey jokes to remain in the discussion etc. If you fail to impress me this time....
As your name suggests, Muttley, you're a dog.... and when a dog gets backed into the corner, it gets defensive
I'm waiting....

budaatum:
It's not funny, muttley, not funny at all

"I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty,
but by my name the Yahweh I did not make myself fully known to them."
- Exodus 6:3

I literaly laughed out loud at the Muttley swipe and subtle shade.

JujuSugar, you know my moniker as being MuttleyLaff, but I have not by the moniker name fully revealed to you what it is about. I have not fully made known to you myself and the moniker. No one yet has seen a demonstration of MuttleyLaff from me.

#IfYouKnowYouKnow
If you know, you know. Who no know, no go know

JujuSugar:
[s][/s]Fancy you telling me to keep my knickers on when you've let yours down around the ankle and you're displaying all this emotion . Like I said, you've hyped me up to expect great responses soon and I'm holding you to your words. Do take your time, Sir Muttley. Wouldn't want you setting mouse traps for yourself this time

Are you and budaatum bed mates? Is this some weird kind of pillow talk because I dont know what all this is about displaying emotions. I am in chillax mode and nothing ontowards is going on. Dont get your hopes too much high, I am a simple and sweet person and so my responses too wil be simple, sweet and uncomplicated but knowing you, who you are and what you are, you will ....

JujuSugar:
Wouldn't want you setting mouse traps for yourself this time

Laughed out loud at this remark. I own up, my hands in the air, yeah, I confess, I did set some bobby traps for you. You knew it and thats why you tried treading softly and being evasive earlier on

budaatum:
Don't you dare let him start going on about your knickers! He writes those meaningless and irrelevant patronising words when he's cornered and has nothing relevant to say. I'm calling it the "muttley kitchen sink approach", except nothing sticks where he's concerned!

Just saw this. SMH.
Please let me be, I have got the munchings, havent changed, need a shower, need to unwind, and then settle down to read and catch up to respond to JujuSugar. Hmm this 50ml ACV glass of water is delicious

JujuSugar:
Now you have me hyped up. I'm eagerly awaiting your response. It will be a crime to let me down after all this mouth you've made Mr. Muttley

Keep your knickers on, what kind of person do you take me for? And what are you unnecessarily getting your knickers in a twist over for, hmm? I will take you to the river, but even you know this much, that I can't force you to drink the water. I can only tell you the truth. I can't, if you are bent on hanging on to your untruth, make you believe the truth I'll soon share with you. I must warn you though, that since you've been in the dark so long, the light of the truth, the epiphany, can be harsh to you. Brb.

JujuSugar:

Its not just about foreknowledge.... hence why I added omnipotence. God is the first cause. He's the ALPHA & OMEGA. He chose the constants of the universe while creating it such that I'm here having this tête-à-tête with you. If you don't agree with this, then you're basically saying that God wasn't omnipotent before the universe's conception. Your "free will" is an illusion if YHWH exists.

You're telling me, lol

Hmmmm....
https://www.nairaland.com/4990896/why-did-god-tell-abraham/4
MuttleyLaff: Jephthah clearly stated in Judges 11:31a that if its human or animal that comes out to meet, such will be dedicated to God's purpose, then went on in Judges 11:31b to qualify his earlier pronounced vow, that, if it happens to be an animal, then it animal will be given up as a burnt offering to God

JujuSugar: Twisting the scriptures to suit your argument - Christian logic #101
Sir Muttley, @bolded please specify exactly where in the bible Jephthah indicated this exemption...

MuttleyLaff: I numerous times already have, but because you do selective reading, you only read what you want to see and believe

JujuSugar: LMAO. I've caught you, Mr. Muttley
Please point to the part of Judges chapter 11 where Jephthah made an exception for sacrifice IF it was an animal that came out. Don't dodge this please. I'm waiting....

Proof?....

Let me bring it your level, Muttleylaff, since you don't how to "interprete" statements...
God
God
Yes

Lifting from my previous post, cause I have neither the time nor crayons to start all over for you:
The Christian YHWH is claimed to be the creator of everything and to have the attribute of omniscience. In defining omniscience, I posit that the attribute of omniscience should first and foremost be applied to the internal cognition of this Deity; then omniscience can be defined as: the Deity has, at a minimum, true or perfect knowledge of the results or actualizations of all cognition's by the Deity. That is, the Deity knows, to a level of complete certainty, any event whatsoever, the actual actualization that results from purposeful cognition by the Deity.

The combination of omniscience and the purposeful cognition of the creation of everything (as The Creator Deity) results in a wholly hard deterministic universe, or total and full predestination; free will is an illusion and all of existence (sans the Deity - the issue how this Deity came to exist is outside this discussion area) is a script to be played out without variation.

Even the Bible supports the position of hard determination: God's Will is inviolable, God is the alpha and omega, is sovereign and in control, the alpha and omega, not a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God's will, etc.

Predestination cannot exist with free will

At least you've admitted that God knows the outcome of every individual. That's one point clarified. Now let's move on...
The problem is that if God knows what you will choose, it means you are only ever going to choose that one thing.
It means that the choice is an illusion — it means that, even though it looks like you could be an accountant, the only true reality is that you will become a doctor.
Otherwise, how could God know it? The fact that God knows something implies that it will be true.
Think of it this way:
a) God knows you will become a doctor.
b) If God knows something to be true, it is true, no matter what. (This is because all knowledge in the universe is contained in him)
c) It is true, no matter what, that you will become a doctor.
d) If you are a doctor, you cannot be an accountant.
e) If God knows you will be a doctor, He also knows you will not become an accountant.
f) It is absolutely true, no matter what, that you will not become an accountant.
Let me put it this way:
If God knows you will become a doctor, that means it is at the very least possible to know what choices people will make. If it is even remotely possible to know the outcome of any decision a person makes, it is meaningless to regard what they do as an actual choice. It may appear to be a choice, but in reality, there is only one, known outcome. If God knows you will become a doctor, it means that you never had the choice. You can't become an accountant, because God can't ever be wrong. Ever. God knows everything, meaning He cannot be misinformed, and by extension, cannot be wrong about things, or be lied to about them. If there is a God, one who is omniscient, and truly knows all, there is no allowance for free will in our universe.

Fixed your post for you , I'm a girl actually....
There is nothing to twist here. You & MuttleyLaff are the ones who can't seem to grasp where I'm coming from regards this issue.
https://www.thoughtco.com/atheism-incompatible-with-free-will-moral-choice-248350

Thank you very very much for directly and prefectly well answering those questions. I actually like the succint binary response. It was just the way I wanted the answers to be. I don't know about you, but personally I like hold prisoners by their wrists, that way escape won't be that an easy option. The hunter will soon turn into the hunted, and I can smell the prey and fright.

JujuSugar, I am right now, at the moment, sat in my car reading this, let me get upstairs, change clothes, refreshen up, grab a bite and then settle down, put my feet up, to come read properly your comment.

Laughing out loud at the hair flicking. SMH. You don't know momoh.

JujuSugar:
Wake up and smell the coffee, sir. There's no denial here. This is what it all boils down to:
If YHWH is an omnipotent, omniscient being, then it simply means that he created the universe such that he has already predetermined all events. Denying this would mean that God lacked these attributes at the conception of the universe. Given that diseases, natural disasters, suffering and pain all exist in our universe, we have two options:
a) YHWH is malevolent
b) YHWH doesn't exist
Take your pick

I know this comment isn't addressed to me but is to CodeTemplar, still it is necessary that I share that God having foreknowledge, which essentially, is what predetermination means, doesn't in anyway affect your choices and/or freewill. What will happen, will happen as God permits it to happen. There are rules your freewill is subjected to, there are principles, your freewill respects and would not violate, if it does violate any, then undoubtedly face up to the consequence(s)

JujuSugar:
@MuttleyLaff, I'm going to ignore the fact that you've conviently dodged my question in my last post to you . At least you've admitted that you were either being dishonest or you just had literally NO idea what you were talking about there . So let me entertain your request

Sometimes it gets tiring when one becomes sounding like a broken record JujuSugar. I shouted from the rooftops, I have swung from tall chimneys, I have bleated my face blue, that your question is a non issue question. Jephthah did not barbecue or roast his daughter. There wasn't any plan to offer a burnt human sacrifice to God. Accusing me of dishonesty or saying I haven't a clue what I am talking about, is just a figment of your imagination and evidence of the world of fantasy you live in.

Please watch my mouth and read my lips. There was no incident of burnt human being offering sacrificed to God by Jephthah

JujuSugar:
These three questions basically lead to the same point: God's existence terminates free will. Make of that what you will

What's so difficult in or frightful about just straight up answering those four questions

JujuSugar:
Go back to my previous posts. I've explained it perfectly well and the more rational users and possible lurkers of this thread can bear me witness. If you still don't get it, I can't help you there.

I have read all your warped and misunderstood predestination and freewill malarkey. I know about all the gaping holes in them and that is why I have asked you those four deliberate questions, that you stylishly have directly and outrightly avoided answering

JujuSugar:
Permit me to start afresh...

The Christian YHWH is claimed to be the creator of everything and to have the attribute of omniscience. In defining omniscience, I posit that the attribute of omniscience should first and foremost be applied to the internal cognition of this Deity; then omniscience can be defined as: the Deity has, at a minimum, true or perfect knowledge of the results or actualizations of all cognition's by the Deity. That is, the Deity knows, to a level of complete certainty, any event whatsoever, the actual actualization that results from purposeful cognition by the Deity.

The combination of omniscience and the purposeful cognition of the creation of everything (as The Creator Deity) results in a wholly hard deterministic universe, or total and full predestination; free will is an illusion and all of existence (sans the Deity - the issue how this Deity came to exist is outside this discussion area) is a script to be played out without variation.

Even the Bible supports the position of hard determination: God's Will is inviolable, God is the alpha and omega, is sovereign and in control, the alpha and omega, not a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God's will, etc.

Predestination cannot exist with free will

You have brought your warped predestination cum freewill malarkey in here abi? If as you have brought it here, then why don't you get me intrigued by responding to the following
1/ Are you in control of your freewill, is it you or God?
2/ Who takes the credit for all choices, good or bad you make, is it you or God?
3/ Do you believe your every moment, step and move in life has been predetermined to the point you have no autonomy or say in the whole matter?
4/ Explain how and what you mean by everybody's life is predetermined.

Let's leave it a four for now

budaatum:
Doesn't matter how you spin it muttley, boko haram and alqaeda too can write. You'd only argue god didn't write it just as I'd argue no god wrote your bible!

P.s. Are you not getting emotional!?

I am sticking to the purview of the Bible and the thread's topic about God mentioning names or specify them and giving expressed commands to do something.

Oh no, I am not getting emotional. Why you asking? What on earth prompted you to ask that question?

budaatum:
We don't see God telling Abraham anything, muttley, we simply read it and some of you think some god truly spoke to some Abraham, and unfortunately jump from that to god talking to them too!

Swap see with read then and stop acting like you don't know or understand what I mean by that comment

budaatum:
Seriously, Muttley? Do you seriously not know the Crusaders were "God's Warriors", and they were fighting "God's War" ? Or are you claiming God didn't send them?

Where in the Bible did God send them budaatum. We see God telling Abraham to go kill, we see God in the Bible telling the Israelites to kill the Canaanites etcetera. When and where in the Bible are the Crusaders mentioned and given authorisation by God to go on warrior paths budaatum?

budaatum:
Isn't that also what boko haram and alqaeda say when they blow people up?

Where is Boko and Queda in the Bible, mentioned and authorised by God to carry out commands for Him?

budaatum:
How is it an invalid comparison? Even today, the Jews justify their stealing of the land the Palestinians were on with what their god supposedly told them, so why would you not accept when Jihadists blow you up because their god told them to?

I have answered this with the above

budaatum:
Funny thing is, he's guilty of them all!

He can't even be original, those lines are mine he nicked

JujuSugar:
And its baffling how ignorant you are of the relationship between predestination and free will

You are, what you are. Trust me, if I were God and knowing what and all I know about you, your bitchiness and all, I'll probably would not let you see the light of existence, but then God is more forgiving than I am, God is in more control of affair of things more than I am, so your tiny lucky arse sees the light of day on earth and you are still here taking in oxygen

JujuSugar:
I know right? Its crazy

Glad we sing from the same hymnn book there

JujuSugar:
Advertise it all you want. It's irrelevant

It is the show-stopper, the spanner thrown in the wheel of fantasy that Jephthah barbecued his daughter

JujuSugar:
It's not. If it is then why didn't God caution Jephthah from sacrificing his daughter if the pronoun is as vital as you're making it to be?

How many times do you want me to refute this. Watch my mouth and read my lips, it did not happen. Jephthah, even never nursed an idea to barbecue a human being. That is fake news

JujuSugar:
I did. I'm equally sure you have the ability to read?

Good, then go back to read what I dropped about pronouns in one of my earliest posts on this thread

JujuSugar:
Twisting the scriptures to suit your argument - Christian logic #101
Sir Muttley, @bolded please specify exactly where in the bible Jephthah indicated this exemption...

I numerous times already have, but because you do selective reading, you only read what you want to see and believe

JujuSugar:
The idea of an omniscient, omniscient being contradicts the idea of free will. If God knows perfectly all future events, then all future events have already happened, therefore existence would ultimately be pointless and unimaginably drab. God is the author of the book and we're just characters in it. Every choice you make has already been written. He knows the end from the beginning Denying this would be denying God's omni qualities.

So just because the author knows everything about the character, the book should not be written or acted in a play, huh?

JujuSugar:
What's so hard for you to understand about the concepts of free will and predetermination,Mr. MuttleyLaff? You still haven't justified God's role in the Jephthah issue, so till then, kindly buzz off.

Don't you dare use that tone with me madam. Keep it in check

JujuSugar:
Don't you see the problem here? How can a loving God know that someone would commit a crime, but let him go ahead even when the said crime will endanger both him and his victims?

This your scenario is so amateurish and full of naivety because of not understanding and knowing that God's integrity and His love is unquestionable. His character has no stain, blot or blemish. No one can scandalise God.

JujuSugar:
I swear. These christians have an annoying habit of being dodgy as fvck.

Christians can respond to that, as I am not holding brief

JujuSugar:
Ok

It's hilarious you saying God is responsible for your sins

JujuSugar:
Lame

Cripple

JujuSugar:
Whatever

People don't want to believe the truth because it will shatter their illusions

JujuSugar:
Seriously. It doesn't matter

It does as a crucial specimen of evidence matter

JujuSugar:
The pronoun used is "it". Your point?

Don't hit a man, talkess a madam, when down. The pronoun you've just confirmed is self evidence. I am sure you took English classes in primary and secondary schools

JujuSugar:
No. Its because you're desperately trying to distort the verses as much as you possibly can to deny the obvious moral of the story: God is fundamentally evil and a narcisstic sociopath who accepts the sacrifice of children without second thoughts. He has no excuse here because he knew exactly who would come out and meet Jephthah on his way back. Feel free to keep chasing your shadow on this issue.

Where did you get the warped idea God accepts sacrifice of children? Jephthah clearly stated in Judges 11:31a that if its human or animal that comes out to meet, such will be dedicated to God's purpose, then went on in Judges 11:31b to qualify his earlier pronounced vow, that, if it happens to be an animal, then it animal will be given up as a burnt offering to God

Dantedasz:
Keep on doing this. You are doing a good job of the tail wagging the dog.

I thoroughly enjoyed nonstamp' video again, very satirically entertaining again.

Do you know what your problem is. You are so blinkered by the trees, so can't because of them see the woods, that is why you are so fixated on the impression that Jephthah barbecued his daughter and other Abraham Isaac God misgivings you have

LordReed:
Yeah but you still get attempts to wash the story. Even on here you see MuttleyLaff challenging the narrative that Jephthah actually roasted his daughter.

Jephthah never barbecued his daughter. Did not, in the first place nurse any plan to barbecue a human being even.

Dantedasz:
NOT CHALLENGING, rather STANDING LOGIC ON IT'S HEAD.

Logically there is no way Jephthah would have considered nursing barbecuing a human being. It defies any logic an Israelite would stand for. Besides that, it is crystal clear in Judges 11:31b what Jephthah planned to barbecue. Only the blind, deceiver and ignorant would not acknowledge or know this

CreepyBlackpool:
In 1095, Pope Urban II called for the
First Crusade in a sermon at the
Council of Clermont. He encouraged military support for the Byzantine Empire and its Emperor, Alexios I , who needed reinforcements for his conflict with westward migrating Turks colonizing Anatolia

Peter the Hermit led thousands of mostly poor Christians out of Europe in what became known as the
People's Crusade. He claimed he had a letter from heaven instructing Christians to prepare for the imminent
apocalypse by seizing Jerusalem.


Germany witnessed the first incidents of major violent European antisemitism when these Crusaders massacred Jewish communities in what became known as the Rhineland massacres .

Should I continue

I will keep serving you as e dey hot

Without their names specifically being mentioned in the Bible, anyone that claims, those that believe in their claims and people like you regurgitating this rubbish, getting hard ons from it, should all together be put in a loony house and the key thrown away

JujuSugar:
Yes

Classic! I love this.

JujuSugar:
Cool

Coolio

JujuSugar:
Cry me a river. I gave you those verses to debunk your claim that Jephthah wasn't thinking of a human being when he made the vow. Now, you want to dance around the fact. Do keep dancing

He was in the first part of the vow thinking of whatever comes to meet him, human being or otherwise, and then clarified his intention in the second part of the vow what he will do, if what comes out happens to be an animal

JujuSugar:
I've addressed this statement already

That's what you made yourself to believe that you've addressed it

JujuSugar:
The pronoun isn't really the issue.

It is the issue. The pronoun is a game changer. The pronoun is truth standing and on steroids.

JujuSugar:
One thing to understand concerning Jephthah's vow is that he did not expect some type of animal or household pet to burst forth from the house upon his return. This makes sense for a couple of reasons. First, in 11:31, the verb "to meet", in the bible, is always used for people, never for a person encountering an animal. Second, in the ancient world, when men returned from battle, women would customarily come forth in procession in order to participate in celebratory dancing. Given the cultural context in which these events transpired, Jephthah likely assumed that a woman would come out from the house to meet him, perhaps a servant girl or, even better, his mother-in-law, but certainly not an animal

I literally laughed out loud at this comment. Would you kindly please tell all and remind others, what is the pronoun used in Judges 11:31b Madam JujuSugar?

JujuSugar:
Your "truth and facts" have been weak thus far. If not, I wouldn't even be having this conversation.

That's because you are in denial

CreepyBlackpool:
Shifting, swinging, clutching straws, its like they just taught you those words in this week's reading comprehension passage.

You asked for where God asked his people to kill, I quoted your bible for you
your best defence is still that it is not murders

Now you're asking for Chriatian killings in morden times, nigga have you heard of the christian crusades.
Those too are not murders ba?


no matter what you say it doesn't change the fact that your God is a bloodthirsty genocidal maniac.
Keep shifting and swinging inugo

When you are done having a hard on, will you then please give me the names of those people that committed those acts in the Christian Crusades that God authorised. You have mentioned Joshua and Jericho and we both agree that God commanded him to do those killings, so please give an do same here

CreepyBlackpool:
Did your bible not say your God pulled down the walls of Jericho so Joshua could commit mass murders in the book of Joshua chapter 6.
Joshua 6:24 and they burned the city with fire, and all within it. Only the silver, gold and the vessels of bronze and of iron, they put in the treasury of the house of the Lord.

Joshua 8:2 and you shall do to Ai and its king as you did to Jericho and its king.....lay an ambush against the city, behind it.

these ones are not murders ba?

and I only involved Islamic terrorist because of your assertion that killing for a God is a good deed and not murder

They are not murders, that was God carry out and/or executing judgement. Now God specifically personally and directly authorised those people to carry out His command

Since you are shifting and swinging over to Allah as the next clutching at straws thing to do now, then please can you give me one person's name, in modern history, God told, as regards to terrorism, to go kill and what the reward was he promised or gave this person?

JujuSugar:
If God is not responsible for Boko haram, then he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent

Is God also responsible for your sins too Madam JujuSugar?

JujuSugar:
Good. I'm glad we agree on this.

The feeling is mutual.

JujuSugar:
Wrong.
Judges 11: 30-35:
30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, 31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering........ 34 And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the Lord, and I cannot go back. Don't try to twist it. You know damn well what Jephthah meant in this passage.

I am sorry, it is too strong for you to stomach the truth.
Weren't you warned to put forward just one verse? You want to hide the truth under an avalanche of verses, right?

JujuSugar:
If you're trying to suggest that God's hands were tied with regards this issue, i'd like to know why

It didn't get to God's hands being tied JujuSugar. Jephthah knows as a rule, that God is not into that wicked and cruel business of nonsense, he wasn't even thinking of a human being. The clue is in the kind or type of pronoun Jephthah used in Joshua 11:31

JujuSugar:
If
I've gone through the four pages of this thread and this description best fits you, Mr. Muttleylaff

If you really and truly read the four pages objectively, you would have noticed that I am not being opinionated but I am having an unbiased conversation dealing with truth and facts I can back the truth up with

CreepyBlackpool:
What they have in common is that just like Jehovah asked Abraham to kill Isaac and rewards him for trying to do so, Allah also rewards Islamic terrorists for killing.

Except that being a hypocrite, you have termed killing for Jehova a sacrifice and not a bad deed, while killing for Allah is terrorism

See what I mean. Shifting and swinging over to Allah is the next clutching at straws thing to do now. Please can you give me one person's name God told, as regards to terrorism, to go kill and what the reward was he promised or gave this person?

JujuSugar:
According to you christians, God always has a plan. And every event is part of this plan, so automatically, he's responsible for Boko Haram. And then you claimed that a deed isn't bad if God authorizes you to do it. So now how do you justify the deeds of the Boko Haram?

Anyone who hasn't a plan, plans to fail, it's as simple as that

I am glad, you are willing to engage, and engage without personalising. I don't give a hoot what or what not you believe, all we are doing here, is just having a mature, honest, factual and truthful conversation. Now having said all that, please tell where and when God authorised anyone in particular about Boko Haram?

JujuSugar:
Did God know that Jepthah's daughter will be the first person Jephthah would meet at home? Yes or No.

Of course, God knows and knows everything, but Jephthah wasn't even talking about human being as what he is willing to barbecue. This is the point, truth and fact eluding you

JujuSugar:
I'm not assuming that Jephthah was thinking of his daughter. In fact i don't know where you pulled that from. What I'm saying (and its not an assumption by the way), is that God could have easily spared Jephthah the pain of killing his own daughter since he's omniscient and clearly knew before hand that Jephthah would end up killing her.

I am categorically telling you, an issue of Jephthah having or planned to sacrificing his daughter as a barbecue is a non-story. None of this rubbish is found in the Jephthah narrative. This is why I asked you to provide a single verse that you are hinging this assumption on, mind you, a single verse and not more than a single verse.

You guys are so fond of being argumentative just for argument sake, eh.

JujuSugar:
Its not an invalid comparison, bro. There's a little something called "God's plan"

What has his comparison in common with God asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac?

JujuSugar:
IDoesn't justify anything. Thanks for quoting me to say nothing.

How do you mean doesnt justfify anything and saying thanks for quoting you, to say nothing?. I am telling you that the Jephthah story is not an example God intervening to any child getting being barbecued sacrificed and you are giving off attitude

JujuSugar:
Which one is assumption? Is God not supposed to be omniscient?

Your assumption that Jephthah was thinking about his daughter, as the first person Jephthah would see when returning back from fighting the enemies? Jephthah wasnt even thinking about any human being when he promised a barbeque

Of course God supposedly and surely is omniscient, but are human beings omniscient? Do you know everything annd all that could be known about you yourself? If put under pressure, do you know with 100% certainty, whether or not you will stand and remain firm and resolute or if or not, you'll buckle and/or give in?

JujuSugar:
Are you trying to say God did not know that Jephthah's daughter was the first person Jephthah would see?

Bring out one single verse and not more than one verse, you are basing this assumption on, and let's both give it a critical look over together

CreepyBlackpool:
so Islamic terrorists are not commiting murders ba?

all the people they're kiling, its sacrifice?

The military shouldn't fight Boko haram since they're not doing any bad deeds?

Keep on jumping from pillar to post with invalid comparisons

JujuSugar:
I prefer Jephthah's story as an example because God doesn't intervene and the child is sacrificed.

I am sorry to be the one bursting this bubble of ill-information, a victim of bad and/or false teaching, for you, that the child sacrificed as perpetual dedication to God's work, similar way Samuel the priest was, and that she wasn't given up as a barbecue or burning sacrifice

frank317:
The issue is that God is testing man to find out if he is obedient enough to carry out a bad deed for him.

It is not a bad deed, if God Himself auhorises you to do it

budaatum:
In fact, a sensible person might argue that Abraham showed he hadn't abandoned his old gods, if one were to assume they were the sort who did appreciate human sacrifices, and therefore, as far as Yahweh was concerned, Abraham failed woefully!

Abraham passed in flying colours

frank317 and budattum, Abraham was following instruction, whose instructions where others following when they were practising all those child sacrifices and/or ritualistic killing of children?

frank317:
Exactly... I wonder how sensible it is that the new God is testing him with the same instruction that an old God would give. Abraham should have known that something was fishy

If I were to test you both youse budaatum and frank317, the test will have to involve something you cherish, something you hold dearly, it will have to be with something they'll will have to kill you first and the prise your clinging on to fingers, off before they'll take the thing off you. You know thats how the cookie crumbles now.

I will test you both on things I know you're used to, I will test you on things you are familiar with. I will test you on something you are used to. Like may for example, child sacrifices and/or ritualistic killing of children? I will test you based on your past antecedents. If I am to test and confirm to you, whether or not you are susceptible to being avaricious, then I will test you, by feeding your greed. Feeding your greed, will be a good test and it wouldnt necessarily be criminal for me, to do so

---

---

CreepyBlackpool:
And the only test he could possibly give him was to ask him to commit murder, a sin?

And goes on to reward him for attempting to commit sin?

It is not murder. It isnt murder

budaatum:
And somehow, I shouldn't feel insulted when Im caught bowing down and worshipping such a god?
I guess it would make sense to me if I park my brain away and refuse to use it like muttley does.

You are letting your emotions get the better of you

budaatum:
Just so you know, I don't think Abraham was tested on anything by anyone since the tester hardly existed and Abraham didn't either.

Nobi today, yansh don tey for chicken back, of course I know your position or stance on Abraham, the testee and the Tester but hypotheticall speaking, was only after, what personally and exactly, do you think Abraham was being tested on?

budaatum:
At best, the story is to show that the new understanding, god Yahweh, disapproved of human sacrifice that was rampant at the time.

Bullseye!
and so we have one of the many birds, killed with one stone, in this macabre social experiment adventure of a thing