₦airaland Forum

hoopernikao:
Strawmann again?
Can you point to the place I judged you here else remove yourself from playing sentiment card.

If what you call judgment is due to the fact that I pointed to you that you haven't read the scriptures properly, then please take that "judgment" to heart. It will save both you and those who hear or take your instructions.

I didn't do anything more than what Jesus did. Jesus must be judgemental when he told the pharisee that "they haven't read the scriptures". Likewise don't forget when he called his disciples "fools and slow of heart".
Paul must be too, when he corrected his disciples in Galatia.

If this is what you call judgment, Bro, please take the judgement and correct your ways.

---

Your reading the scriptures many times is not the same as reading properly. I have told you this severally. I am not here to doubt whether you have read the scriptures before, in fact I know you are going by your exposure to verses and bible texts. But i am here to tell you you haven't read it properly and that is based on your conclusion about the scriptures.


You are the one who judged yourself due to that. Jesus told Nicodemus "are you a teacher of the law, (bible) and know not these things?". Hence it's not strange to be teaching the Bible and still lack its knowledge. So whether you have taught before or handle Bible school is not the focus here but your knowledge of what you teach and explain is what is my concerns. They aren't what the scriptures taught.


Bro, the truth is you aren't paying attention to the essence, focus, explanation, themes, progressiveness, events, actions, inactions and structural thoughts of the scriptures. Get this well and stop seeing it as an abuse.

Hence, you must channel this frustration to strengthen yourself and pick the Bible again for proper reading this time. Channel this frustration to get persuaded by the word of God. In this all doubt and inconsistency will be resolved.

Don't you think and desire so?

Lol you make it too easy but then again I've resolved to make our discussions as civil as possible.

Are you Jesus who knows the hearts of men?

And Paul corrected the Galatians for going against his teachings when after their conversion through the hearing of faith they still subjected themselves to circumcision and other demands of the Law.

How do you compare your case here?.
You're the type that will defend your anger quoting Jesus got angry and chased people out of the temple for turning his father's house to den of thieves.

You simply assumed and concluded that I hadn't read the Bible in whole and was only picking verses haphazardly.

PS: The very fact that you're a Christian and religious makes you judgmental.
Not your fault. The Bible does teach that whoever doesn't believe in Jesus is condemned already.
Yet it teaches you not to judge. The irony.
That's what religion does anyway.

hoopernikao:
Haphazard Bible learning won't produce anything but puffed display of knowledge, more confusion which end up not edifying you or me.

You must start learning Bible in systematic order and structure now. It is clear from most of your discussions that the questions and challenges you have on and from the scriptures are result of not reading scriptures the way it should be read, likewise not paying attention to the systematic way the writer presented their writings and the progressive thoughts of the whole scriptures when read together. These show in mostly here in all your "inconsistent scriptures".

---

A good way you can start is:
Start reading and asking questions on Bible concepts that are well mentioned in the scriptures.

This will help you understand the bigger picture and how they are broken down to other concepts and teachings. Also allow a relearning by going to reread things again especially when someone point you to it. You don't have to accept it of course, but the act of reading it again is a good study culture and also help you see things again either in new light or in consistent with what you believe already.

Lastly, Dont drop verses like song chorus, original Bible were not presented in verses, they were written together as each book.
They are to be read together (as individual book and by extension the whole books) without stopping in between so as to have the full understand of the discuss.

I have read the Bible twice.

I've read the synoptic gospels even more.

I have taught the Bible in foundational classes.

I have unlearned and relearned doctrines.

I have considered everything else as rubbish except the word of God and the pursuit of the nature and likeness of Christ. Of course not to the extent of Paul.

But what I found at the end of it is just another religion.

The efficacy of the word is in the power of the Spirit. If that power is missing, it is but another religion.

Does religion work? I'd say yes.
Whatever one has faith in would certainly work for them.
Which is why there still exists myriads of religions even till date.

But I choose not to be religious cos that was what Jesus came to set the Israelites and by extension the world free from.

Why did I share this?
You're presumptious like most judgmental Christians are. I can't blame you though, you've been taught your religion is the only way and truth and every other religion is hellbound.
Unfortunately, you've also been taught the many powers of the Spirit which you are unable to manifest and substantiate. How frustrating.

hoopernikao:
1. I asked you a question you haven't answer, do you need healing or you supervise a sick ward?

2. You can also help me share a scripture where Jesus shared his experience on healing the sick or Paul sharing his, since you want a sharing formula
You so much focus on what is not to miss what is.

The very post you quoted answers your question.

Righteousness2:
Quit Deceiving your Soul!
Many have done dt and departed and right now they are begging for the Privilege you have now.
Receive the truth and make Amends!
Except you Repent! You will likewise Perish!

It is the joy of God and Jesus that no soul perishes.

How then do you derive so much joy in wishing others to perish?

Is it not because you have no likeness of Christ and you're simply doing the works of your father, the devil?

After all it is the devil who derives so much joy in wishing man perishes.

You really need to learn of Christ and his apostles to know your present disposition is nothing like Christ.

iampeterben:
Gbam! We move
By December knack us N300 per litre, make we begin buy fuel like dem dey buy am for Ghana and Benin Republic, people we are supplying the products.

APC! CHANGE!!!

You nailed it.
We all know it will eventually come to this.
Even Pounds might still hit 1000naira to a pound. And over 500naira to a dollar.

Our govt don't see anything wrong in all these increments cos most of them get fuel allowance. Besides they believe other countries are paying more.

They do not factor in the dynamics between such countries and Nigeria.

Ghana for example has ensured that there's stable electricity which means you don't have to worry about fuel price for generators except you're a car owner. Also Ghana is not among OPEC.

Dubai and other countries which our govt likewise compare Nigeria to have stable electricity and alternative means of transport where the masses don't feel the impact of the fuel price.

Unlike Nigeria, where nothing works.
Only few locations have stable electricity.
The transport system is so bad that if you're not careful you'll spend more fuel driving through traffic.

Btruth:
Trust God’s Saving And Keeping Power

Fri, 12 Mar 2021

‘Kept by the power of God through faith for salvation.’ 1 Peter 1:5

If our salvation is assured when we place our trust in Christ, might not some people take advantage of this assurance? Yes, they might—for a time. But as grace goes deep, and as God’s love and kindness sink in, they change. Grace fosters obedience. ‘The grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age.’ (Titus 2:11–12 NIV)

God’s grace does more than comfort you in your troubles; it convicts you in your disobedience. Let it convict you. If you ever catch yourself thinking, ‘I can do whatever I want because God will forgive me,’ then grace isn’t happening to you. Selfishness, perhaps. Arrogance, for sure. But grace? No.

Grace creates a resolve to do good, not permission to do bad. And one more thought. Look to Christ for your beginning and ending. He’s Alpha and Omega. He will hold you, and He will hold on to the ones you love. Do you have a prodigal son or daughter? Do you long for your spouse to come to God? Do you have a friend whose faith has grown cold? God wants them back more than you do.

Keep praying, and don’t give up. The truth is, we don’t always know if someone has trusted God’s grace. A person may have feigned belief but not meant it. It’s not ours to know. But we do know this: where there is genuine conversion, grace never stops working. So today, trust God’s saving and keeping power.

Well said.

Ihedinobi3:
Very well.

To be clear, I don't believe that you are telling the truth at all here.

I don't believe that it is possible to actually have a meaningful conversation over this matter with you. I have tried to open up that possibility several times by asking you to consider why you hold the position that you do. But you don't want to discuss your reason.

Your words here prove again to me that you don't believe that it is possible that the Bible is just difficult to understand. You are absolutely certain that it is inconsistent. So I cannot give you the benefit of the doubt although I would have preferred to.

Nonetheless, I will attempt to give an answer to your post including an address of your examples. I don't promise the possibility of a discussion following that because I am not persuaded that it will be useful or meaningful.

1. "Just when you think you understand anything about the Bible, you'll find another verse that proves otherwise."
To begin, the fact that something appears to be a contradiction does not mean that it is. For example, in physics, there is both buoyancy and gravity. Although those are opposing influences, their existence does not mean that physics contradicts itself. Likewise, if there are seemingly opposing ideas in the Bible, it does not necessarily mean that the Bible opposes itself.

The common sense thing here is that the fair way to deal with something whose credentials are not yet tested is to give it the benefit of the doubt. In science, we make a hypothesis and we test the hypothesis to see if it is actually true. The same is how we deal with anything else. Unless we have a reason to doubt that something is not what it is said to be, we are wise to treat it with some allowance that it is what it is said to be. That is what is called "giving the benefit of the doubt."

This is how we must treat the Bible too. It is a body of knowledge. It claims to be the very Word of God. And if that isn't enough to warn us that it would take at least a bit of work for us to understand, then it also does tell us itself unequivocally that it is difficult to understand. As such, what makes sense is that we do things its way in the foregoing to see if it will work out as it promises.

For example, if the Bible tells us that we must believe the Gospel in order to have the Holy Spirit so that we receive the ability to understand the things that the Bible teaches and that we should seek out and submit to gifted and prepared pastor-teachers in order to learn what the Bible teaches, then the right way to prove whether the Bible is to be trusted is to actually do these things. If they don't work, then we can say that the Bible is not reliable. If they do, then we can say that it is. But to say that the Bible is not reliable just because we don't understand what it says when we are not willing to do things the way that it says we should do them to understand it is grossly foolish.

2. "God is one and there's no one else beside him."
I'm not sure what verse proves otherwise here. But since you mentioned the Trinity later, the argument seems to be the common objection that one finds everywhere: Either there is one God or there are three gods; the Bible can't teach both that God is one and that there are three Persons who are God.

The funny thing about this objection is that no one is confused that there is only one thing that is called "human." That is, although you could say that there are so many billion human beings, one never thinks of "human" as being more than one thing. "Human" is the nature of a thing. If a given thing possesses certain attributes, we call it human. If it doesn't, we don't. Likewise, there is only one thing that is defined as "dog." That thing is distinct in spite of how many of its kind exists and how many forms it takes. We know, for example, that a dog is not a cat no matter how similar we may think that they are.

"God" is a name that defines a certain type of nature. There is only one thing like that. There is nothing else that is God. There is only one such thing. That there are three Persons who possess that nature is not a contradiction. It is only a disclosure. "Trinity" is just a word that describes the uniqueness of this particular "thing." All the Persons who possess this nature are in perfect harmony in all things. They think the same way, exist the same way, and act in exact agreement with each other. They are never at odds with each other. This is the whole point of pointing out the oneness of God. If there is only one person that is God, then there would be no reason to make a point of the oneness of God. It should be perfectly obvious in itself.

3. "There are 3 that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the word and the Spirit and all three are one."
1 John 5:7 is not part of the Bible.

That does nothing to the truth of the Trinity, however, since the whole Bible bears witness to it anyway.

4. "Faith is the most important thing."
I don't know what you are talking about. 1 Corinthians 13:13 says that love is greater even than faith. I know no part of the Bible that counters this in any way.

5. "Works are the most important."
I don't know what you mean here either. James teaches that works prove the existence of faith. It is impossible to say that we believe if we don't do the things that come with faith. Abraham sacrificed Isaac because he believed God when He told him that Isaac would be the one through whom he would be given the descendants that he was promised. Without faith, we can't do the works that God calls us to do. I'm not sure then that I see how works are the most important. Godly works are just the result of godly faith.

6. "Love is the most important."
Obviously.

7. "Tithing is for Jews. For a Christian, giving is as he cheerfully wills."
Tithing applies to the Jews under the Law of Moses, yes. For Christians, we are responsible to support one another and our pastor-teachers according to our ability and also to be kind to unbelievers. We ought to discharge these responsibilities joyfully too, not grudgingly. Besides this, I don't know what it is your complaint here is about.

8. "Jesus is God."
He is. What is the contradictory thing about that?

9. "Every Christian should speak in tongues."
I don't know any part of the Bible that teaches this.

10. "Once saved is forever saved."
I don't know any part of the Bible that teaches this.

11. "Grace abolishes the Law."
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Grace is the satisfaction of the demands of the Law on behalf of the condemned.

12. "Grace is without works/Grace is with works."
I don't know what you mean to say here. But if someone is doing you a favor, then you certainly aren't doing anything to merit it. Still, if someone has done you a favor, it tends to make you able to take advantage of something in some way.

We have not earned our forgiveness from God. We have been given it freely. Now that we are forgiven however, we are finally free to actually start walking with God as His children, friends, and servants.

13. "There is sin in heaven."
I don't know what you're talking about.

Thanks for sharing.
I'll respect your choice not to discuss further.

Righteousness2:
Sometime ago, here on this platform! I read where a brother said he sees his late dad almost all the time in his dream Weeping and Crying!without saying anything to him.
I asked him, did your father Die in JESUS?
His father did not.

You may not appreciate the Privilege to hear the Gospel of JESUS Christ and the opportunity to Repent until you Drop Dead without JESUS! Then will you Fully Understand that you messed yourself by yourself. You will beg and cry for a second Chance! You will wish to turn back the clock but then it will be Late.

Wisdom is Profitable to Direct!

As predictable as always.
Your only message on NL is hell fire.

I wonder if you even read the Bible or simply preach what your church taught you to preach.

Did Jesus preach hell fire to the Samaritan woman by the well? Even though he knew she was sleeping around with another man who was not her husband?

Did Jesus preach hell fire to the woman that was caught pants down committing adultery?

Did Jesus preach hell fire to the Pharisees and Saducees even as much as he condemned them publicly, woeing them for their religious pride and blindness.

Did Jesus preach hell fire to Pontius Pirate even as he was being condemned to be crucified?

Did Jesus preach hell fire even to the thief and hardened criminal that was taunting him even as they were being crucified?

Even the Apostles did not go around preaching hell fire as much as they were being persecuted.

But I don't blame you, you can only preach what you believe. I blame the person that converted you.

The irony of it all is that since you believe in hell fire so much, you might even just be it's primary candidate while the people you're calling hellbound might just be heavenbound.
No one they say knows tomorrow.

Be less predictable
Read your Bible, pray that you may prophesy and reveal deep mysteries to people about their lives that will confirm you're God-sent just like Jesus and his Apostles did.

Then you can genuinely win souls that love God, not hell-fearing religious slaves.
Have a nice day.

Kobojunkie:
Like I mentioned in my previous post, He, Jesus Christ was sent by God to the Lost sheep of Israelite, to teach them His New Covenant. Now, healing the gentiles was not out of the question, but He made it clear everywhere He went that He was there specifically for the lost sheep of Israel, just as the Prophets told. So I am not certain why you see "contradiction" when according to the Prophets, He came with a New Covenant for the children of God.
There are problems with the assertions you make and the questions you ask leading me to again suggest that you go back to read the Gospels so you have a better grasp of who Jesus Christ is, in relation to the Spirit of God whom you think exists separate from He, Jesus Christ, and the why of His mission.

As I said before, Jesus Christ was sent to present the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven to the lost sheep of Israel - that had to happen first, which is exactly what He did. The plan had been from the time of Abraham though that through Israel, all nations would be saved. So, when Jesus Christ's mission was completed, He then sent His disciples out into the world to teach the same Gospel He had spent about 3 and a half years teaching them, to all nations.

Please bear in mind that the one you call the Spirit of God is in fact the Spirit that lived inside of Jesus Christ when He was here on earth with His disciples. So the idea that the Spirit of God who Jesus Christ promised His disciples -the Spirit of Truth - is some entity that has His own mind and plan, please toss that out. That is part reason why I suggested earlier that you read through the Gospel of John so as to get a better picture of who the Spirit of Truth really is.

Realize that Jesus Christ did not send out automatons but instead He sent out humans who happened to also be His disciples to go carry His teachings into the world. That Peter had a had time opening up to Gentiles was because he was a human being. Growing up under Jewish tradition back in their day, Gentiles were considered unclean and so they, Jewish folks, were not even supposed to eat or be seen among them. So, when the call came, the Spirit of God took the opportunity to remind Peter of what Jesus Christ had already taught Him to do, and Peter obeyed and went to Cornelius's house, ate and prayed with as the Spirit instructed him to.

Like I said before, those who are of the opinion that Peter hesitated, causing God to change his mind, or something of that nature, are entitled to that opinion. And that is that.
Please do go back and read through the Gospels so you better understand who Jesus Christ really is, and who the Spirit of God is as well.
All this stems from your understanding as far as who Jesus Christ is and who the Spirit of Truth is in relation to Jesus Christ, as well as your understanding of the Master/Servant relationship that exists in this case.
When you read through the gospels, and gain even the basic understanding of Jesus Christ and the relationship that exists between His person and then, then I am sure you will have a better grasp of why you not in fact asking the right questions here. It will never makes sense to try to compare God's actions to man's actions, will it?

I understand your position that the teachings of Jesus Christ are sacrosanct. He being The Word. Also arguably being God himself.

My question to you however is this- what purpose then does the Holyspirit serve?

I have shown you verses that confirm that the person of the Holyspirit is too significant for a Christian which is why Jesus himself was limited by what he could teach his disciples before the Holyspirit was given.

Ihedinobi3:
Interesting. Not only am I not making assumptions about that according to you, I have also been trying your patience.

Obviously, I have explained several times that I won't discuss the doctrinal points you raised without addressing why you believe that the Bible is contradictory. You have essentially called me chicken if I didn't debate with you. You have tried to play on my ego by invoking my status as a pastor-teacher to get me to debate with you. You have pretended to be interested in my answers to get me to debate the examples you produced too. But somehow, it is I who am assuming that you are simply baiting me into argument. That is funny.

As for wearing out your patience, I have been the one repeating myself all along. I made clear that you were under no obligation to bother with my point of view, yet you kept trying to get me to debate on your terms. Just because I have courteously refused to, explaining in different ways that I can't do more than ask you to clarify your position, you accuse me of wearing out your patience. That is funny too.

Cheers.

Before I even knew you were a pastor or teacher, I was simply interested in your input as a Christian.

I was not baiting you. I was simply like any one who has a question on his mind, interested in your answer and position.

But I understand how the fact that NLders have probably baited you into arguments and you have assumed the position that every thread is opened with the intention of arguments.

As you may have noticed even on this thread, there are some arguments already which I have deliberately avoided knowing fully well that it derails this topic.

As you may also have noticed, I hardly comment on posts here, cos I'm pretty aversed to arguments.

My point is simply to seek the truth and also de-religionize whoever is bound to religious doctrines simply because they just do not read their bibles and get enslaved b their churches.

I find myself in this interesting position having been a teacher of the scriptures myself until the inconsistencies and uncertainties threw me off.

Ihedinobi3:
Obviously, it hasn't. Isn't that the point? If I cannot persuade you of the right way to go about examining Scriptural positions, how on earth could I persuade you that the positions themselves are true and correct?

Of course, everyone has a right to believe and claim whatever they want. Any consequence due to such beliefs and claims are, after all, their responsibility to bear as well. What I don't see is why I need to indulge a false position for no reason. If you want to believe for no reason that the Bible contradicts itself, you are certainly entitled to that belief. I am not responsible to do more than accept your right to believe whatever you want. I certainly cannot force you to examine your position if you don't want to. But neither will I be forced to assume that it is true just to demonstrate that it isn't. That would be a right foolish thing to do.

As I said before, you are unlikely to succeed at baiting me into this debate. I have no doubt that the Bible's position is true. But I have no desire to force that position on you. Nor will I waste my time trying to persuade you of something you have decided cannot be true. If you want to dissect the Bible's position with me, I believe that the reasonable and productive way to go about it is to address and dissect your own assumptions about the Bible first. That is, after all, the point you wish to prove.

Why you keep assuming that I am simply baiting you into argument is quite remiss of you.
At this juncture, I can say you have successfully worn out my patience.

Ihedinobi3:
For the sake of courtesy, I'll repeat that I believe that it is best to deal with the claim you made that the Bible is contradictory before addressing the specific doctrinal issues you raised. There is no point in trying to explain biblical positions if they are already contradictory. Either we must allow for the possibility that there is no contradiction so that there is some sense in exploring the meanings of those doctrines in the Bible or else we must ignore all possibility that those issues can be explained in some meaningful yet non-contradictory way.

Please understand that I don't believe that any further input of mine matters worth a nickel to you if the input above means nothing to you either. The above is my input. It can be expanded, but only if it is worth doing so.

Do with my input what you please.

Hmm.
What if your input could convince me and others otherwise?

Everyone is entitled to an opinion right? It is either the opinion is confirmed or proven wrong.

I honestly would like us to dissect the bible's stand on these issues I highlighted. If truly you believe the bible's stand is consistent.

Kobojunkie:
Meaning it could not be discerned by following His words alone except by the Spirit of God? Well, the average individual is not able to discern, say discrete math, unless under the guidance of an instructor in the field either. In a similar manner, the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit who was inside of Jesus Christ, serves as the one and only Teacher to all those who are followers of Jesus Christ, helping them discern all Truths that have to do with Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ did not discriminate against the gentiles in much the same way that Peter did. Jesus Christ was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, the Jews. However, while He was with them, He encountered gentiles and did indeed engage them as He could.

Peter was sent into the world by Jesus Christ but apparently he, Peter, did not understand that that included even to the Gentiles, and so the Spirit of Truth, revealed that to Him as we read of.
Note what it was that was supposedly revealed to Peter in His Vision, and read the passage below... to understand when the Spirit of Truth commanded Him to also not that which God has made unclean.

The Spirit of Truth took from what Jesus Christ had already taught His disciples, revealing to Peter a truth he was still missing. The Truth He, the Spirit of Truth recess to His servants are Truts rooted in the very teachings of Jesus Christ.

If after this, Peter still resisted associating with Gentiles, it was likely Peter himself hesitated, and not because of some problem with Jesus Christ's teaching of the truth revealed Him by the Spirit of God. It is hard to break from that which you have been raised/indoctrinated with, to instead follow different teaching, in Peter's case, the teachings of Jesus Christ.

The same can be said of those of us who chose to follow Him even today, especially those who do it later in life.
What? I am aware of that opinion, but I don't think that is entirely the truth of what in fact happened.

Matter of fact, it is recorded, that the other disciples went to other parts of the world beginning when the believers were scattered out of Jerusalem. The Spirit of God Himself dispersed them all to different parts of the world as He would. From my researching what I learnt what became of the Apostles, I came upon on information that suggest they indeed while out in Gentile-world. E.g. Andrew is suspected to have gone as far east as Georgia where there is to this day there a legend that Andrew was the first Christian teacher to make it to them.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_the_Apostle
I don't see the contradiction which you declare.

Matthew 15:21-28
(T)Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, (U)Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”

23 But He answered her not a word.

And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”

24 But He answered and said, (V)“I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”

26 But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little (W)dogs.”

27 And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”

28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, (X)great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.


This is where the contradiction is. Initially, he wasn't sent to Gentiles except only Israelites.
Of course, whenever he found great faith in the Gentlies he bypassed protocol to heal them.

This like you rightly said prompted Peter himself to find it difficult going to the Gentiles.

But after the Holyspirit was given, he sent the disciples to go to the whole world gentiles and israelitrs.

Do you see how the dispensation of the Holyspirit changed the initial position of Jesus concerning Gentiles?

How then can you be so confident that other positions of Jesus did not change now that the Holyspirit has been given?

How then can you say the epistoes of apostles Paul, Peter, James etc cannot be taken seriously even when Jesus himself said he petitioned God to send the Holyspirit so that they could bear the things he could not share.

You cannot cherry pick only the words of Jesus Christ and discard the words of the Apostles He himself sent
to do greater works than him.

Ihedinobi3:
Very well. I have made my input. It is clear that it doesn't suit you.

As for what my job is, isn't it interesting that you now deign to define it for me? Not only are you so confident that the Bible contradicts itself, you now also know for certain that a pastor-teacher's job is to teach whether he is believed or not. As with your first claim, I know that you will not substantiate that claim either, so there is no point asking you to do so.

For what it is worth, we are commanded by the Lord Jesus to not give holy things to dogs or cast our pearls before swine lest they trample these precious things underfoot and turn around and tear us to pieces. That is what the Bible actually says. Since my job is defined by the Bible and not you, I would say that I shouldn't care how you are pleased to define my job if your definition runs counter to the Bible.

As for being deterred by the fact that you would argue with my stance, I think that even my comments here would show that you are making yet another false claim. I have only said that I will not commit myself to never-ending arguments and quarrels with you. By all means, argue with me if you want. I am a teacher, not a dictator. What I won't do is waste my time in frivolous debates that accomplish nothing of value for anybody. After all, it is the Bible that tells teachers to stay away from such things as well.

Please, feel free to accuse me of anything you please. If you want to hear what I believe, I will gladly tell you. But claiming that I don't care as much for the great commission as I do for my ego is no proof at all that the Gospel is your concern. It is nothing more than bait for me to wade into meaningless debating with you. I have more than a couple thousand posts on this one account alone to show that I am not shy of teaching the Gospel under all kinds of circumstances. The fact that you want a frivolous debate is the only thing that is stopping me here.

But you haven't made your input on this topic, you have only given reasons why you won't make your input.
I'm actually quite interested in your input knowing you're a Pastor/Teacher.

Do you agree or disagree with my highlighted points in the post?

About Trinity
There are verses that say God is one and no one else beside him.
There are verses that say Jesus is the Son of God
And also verses that say Jesus is in fact also God hence contradicting the fact that God is one?

About Eternal Salvation
Once saved is forever saved. Or you can be saved today and lose your salavayion by your own actions/sins.

About Tithing
Just as other Laws in the old testament have been abolished, does it not mean that Tithing is also abolished? In the new testament, neither Jesus nor the Apostles demanded Tithes, they only encouraged cheerful giving as one wills.

About Faith and Works
Does faith alone save. Or faith without works is dead?

About Sin
Can a Christian still commit sin?
And is there sin in heaven?

Of course the other points are pretty clear enough.

Kobojunkie:
I used the Mathematical field for a reason - Mathematics is a universal language and is the closest that many of us are exposed to that can compare.

I know. But just like Mathematics, Physics is fundamental to the study of how things and the universe work. Hence my analogy as well.

If Physics as significant and fundamental as it is can have different layers, could it be that the message of Christ and the Holyspirit could also be layers?

Jesus categorically said, there were things he could not teach his disciples who had followed him for about 3½ years. Meaning it could not be discerned by following his words alone except by the Holyspirit.

Just like Jesus, Peter discriminated against Gentiles. In fact he occasionally avoided healing or even preaching to Gentiles.

But when the Holyspirit was given, Jesus appeared to Peter instructing him that no to call the Gentiles unclean and in fact go and preach to Cornelius and his household.

This would eventually lead Paul to become the Apostle of the Gentiles (uncircumcised).

Now, this would seem to contradict Jesus' teachings by the word. But by the Holyspirit, we can see there's an evolution in his target audience.

Ihedinobi3:
I think you mistake me.

I am not saying that you must meet my demands before I answer you. I am just asking you to consider the possibility that answering what you're demanding will not answer the main thing in your OP.

You said in your OP that the Bible is inconsistent ("just when you think you understand anything about the Bible, you find another verse that proves otherwise" ) and you later stated unequivocally that the Bible contradicts itself.

You must understand that these are very positive claims. They are not statements of inquiry or doubt. You are absolutely certain -- judging by your own words, that is -- that the Bible contradicts itself. You even told someone that he needs to study the verses in question to see the contradictions.

In other words, you cannot possibly be asking that anyone demonstrate to you what the Bible means by any of the things you posted. Rather, you are demanding that they prove you wrong about your claims.

Now, if you take a stand like that, it is usually impossible to reverse it. You have offered no reason for why you believe that the Bible contradicts itself. You just offered Bible verses that you believe are contradictory and demand that Christians show that they are not. But what guarantee do you offer any respondent that you will judge their arguments or answers reasonably? None.

That is my problem here. I enjoy discussing the Scriptures. I enjoy helping others understand them. It is even my job to do so. But it is not reasonable to spend time answering questions for people who are not really asking them.

If you believe that you could be wrong in your position, I would be happy to engage you. If you don't, it would be a waste of time for me at least. Perhaps this is just a pastime for you as it is for so many people on this board, so you don't mind the frivolous debate. But it isn't for me. This is a job for me, even if it is a very enjoyable one. So, in order to do it well, I have to make reasonable use of my time and energy.

I would be happy to engage the specific examples you provided, but I am requesting that we establish first whether or not my answers matter at all. If they don't, there is no end to the verses that any one can post as proof of the Bible's contradictions and there is no end to the ridiculous excuses that are thrown up to reject any defence offered by a gifted and prepared pastor-teacher for the Bible's statements. That is all I am saying.

Better to not start the discussion at all than to waste time quarreling over something that we both have a fundamental disagreement on.

You amaze me, especially considering that you claim to be a teacher.

Your job is to teach and preach the gospel regardless of whether it 8s believed or accepted.

Imagine a whole Jesus who knew he would be rejected and even crucified, still came to preach the gospel and due for the same world he knew would murder him. Yet you're already deterred just by your assumption that I would argue with your stand?

All I would have expected was for you to sow your seed as inspired by the spirit, albeit by quoting the word and with prayers have faith that it would perform the work which God has sent it to perform.

But seems to me you're more concerned about your ego that the great commission.

I reiterate, no one is forcing anyone here, if you choose to make your input, good. If not, it's still OK.

Kobojunkie:
As far as the New Covenant is concerned, Jesus Christ is the Law, so every word that is uttered has to be weighed against the Law(Jesus Christ) Himself.
There are doctrines out there that suggest that the line in bold suggests that through the Spirit of Truth(Jesus Christ) that there will be revealed, what they call "new truths", different from what Jesus Christ set in place during His time on earth, but the fact is that is not what Jesus Christ said there.

Imagine the teachings of Jesus Christ as you would axioms, Truths that are established as the foundational Truth of the New Covenant - God's own message. It is atop of these axioms that every Truth we receive from the Spirit of God will be built on -- The Spirit will not speak of His own authority that is to say He will not bring to us a different set of axioms from that which Jesus Christ has established. We will have our eyes opened to so many new ideas but every idea built on top of the foundational truth that is Jesus Christ, every one of His teachings reflecting clearly the Truth of Jesus Christ in all-wise.

It is kind of like what you would find in the language of mathematics. The entire field of learning is in fact built atop axioms, propositions on which every mathematical idea, formulae, computation, proof, etc. is built on. You deviate in any way or form from those axioms, and you are no longer in the mathematical realm - no longer learning mathematics but something else. In Mathematics, those are also called contradictions and what you typically do to such is you throw them out.

In Physics, the laws of Classical Physics do not apply to Quantum physics.

Could it not also be that Jesus was teaching "classical physics" while the Holyspirit teaches "Quantum Physics"?

budaatum:
The above statement is very true and insightful op, and is why many call it a "Living Book", because the more you breathed into it the more it comes alive inside your mind.

The Bible is a big complex book that develops your brain and mind. While as a child you may believe what you read, and understand as a child and think as a child who sees through glass darkly and knows only in part, you will find that as you grow and develop, you will put childish things away and become an adult who sees face to face so that you shall know even as also I am known.

However, and note the seeming contradiction, to become an adult who sees face to face, you must become as a child and be reborn, as in, abandon your beliefs and start as one born out of one's mother's womb as a baby who knows nothing. And then must you ask and seek and knock with all your heart and soul and mind and being until you find understanding. It is precisely this that the Pharisees could not do and which ended with Crucify Him.

If anyone told you picking up your heavy cross and following Christ is easy, they either see you as a child and do not wish to scare you and so ask that you just believe for now until you receive the ministering Holy Spirit, or you have asked for bread and been handed a serpent and a scorpion by those of whom Christ said "Woe"! And there are those who bother not to understand and just collect their thirty pieces of silver and say "Hail, master" and kiss Christ.

May we all gain understanding, in Jesus' Mighty Name.

Ref:
https://www.nairaland.com/6270982/tell-me-how-african-atheist

The Bible should not contradict itself no matter how alive it comes to you. The issue here is that there are verses contradicting themselves which 8s why it's difficult to have a biblical stand on any doctrine.

Ihedinobi3:
I have already explained why I would rather not take that approach.

It is your thread and your inquiry. So you are certainly free to handle it as you please. Also, I am not the only respondent here nor are you forced to consider my opinion or response important enough to make any adjustments.

However, I don't have the time, energy, or inclination to get embroiled in endless arguments about things that those I discuss with don't really care about. I am a Bible teacher. My job is to explain Bible teachings to anyone who is willing to listen. So, I certainly can explain the Bible's position on your 12 items.

The question though is why you would believe me if you believe that the Bible's position is unknowable. It would be a waste of time on my part to do what you consider impossible.

So, again, I would suggest that you try to think about and answer for yourself why you think that the Bible does not have a clear position that can be known for sure. If we can unravel that knot, then it will be easier to explain the things that you have problems with.

Again, it's your call. This is your inquiry or challenge after all. You know how important it is to you to discover truth here. So you know exactly what you are willing to put on the line in that pursuit. You don't need to follow my advice at all if you don't want to.

I did not force you to comment on this thread, did I?

I simply opened this thread as a result of the endless arguments here especially among Christians of different denominations.
I myself hope to learn from it.

Now, you can either share your stand on the highlighted points if you have scriptural reference to back them up. Or learn as others do.

Thanks.

Kobojunkie:
Forget the doctrine of Trinity which itself is a doctrine put together by men, something Jesus Christ calls a lie. Instead, learn of God from the Word of God.

According to Jesus Christ, He is the Word of God... The Truth of God, the one through which God spoke everything into being that was created. You can read up on this by carefully reading through the Gospels.
Most important in what sense? You forgot to specify a context.

Anyways, we know that God Himself is Love and every one of His acts is Love in action.
And as far as opinions on these things go, Paul's opinion, on what is most important, is his opinion. If you do not agree, that is fine too. But where Jesus Christ is concerned, when it comes to His commandments for His followers, He spoke of love as most important when it comes to the things of God...

...and since God Himself is Love , Jesus Christ commands love for one's enemies(going the extra mile to appease them) so that by doing so, one becomes perfect even as the Father is Perfect.


Here is what I have personally learned in my walk so far with God. Faith is not some mental gymnastics as is popularly believed. Instead, faith is instead a collection of all the good works done in obedience to the commandments of Jesus Christ, trusting fully in the Father's lead.

God has work for everyone who believes in Him to do, and Jesus Christ never hid this fact from His followers in any way. He told them parable after parable explaining that there is indeed work to be done and every worker will be judged according to how well they do the work given them. So, yes, Faith is just as important as your works since they are not as independent of each other as many have, and continue to assume to this very moment.

Heaven is a reward available only to do who submit to the lead of the Spirit of God, obeying His commandments as a result. So, to everyone who wants to make it into the Kingdom of Heaven, that is very important.

P.S. All of Paul's letters were directed at those in the specified churches who already believed and had the Spirit of God living in them. Trying to understand one as one who has yet to understand the truth of God is like trying to climb over a high wall while in a wheelchair.

From our earlier discussions, you seem to only believe the words of Jesus. But what do you make of his words in this verses concerning the work of the Holyspirit?

John 16:5-15
But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’
But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart.

Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

Kobojunkie:
Forget the doctrine of Trinity which itself is a doctrine put together by men, something Jesus Christ calls a lie. Instead, learn of God from the Word of God.

According to Jesus Christ, He is the Word of God... The Truth of God, the one through which God spoke everything into being that was created. You can read up on this by carefully reading through the Gospels.
Most important in what sense? You forgot to specify a context.

Anyways, we know that God Himself is Love and every one of His acts is Love in action.
And as far as opinions on these things go, Paul's opinion, on what is most important, is his opinion. If you do not agree, that is fine too. But where Jesus Christ is concerned, when it comes to His commandments for His followers, He spoke of love as most important when it comes to the things of God...

...and since God Himself is Love , Jesus Christ commands love for one's enemies(going the extra mile to appease them) so that by doing so, one becomes perfect even as the Father is Perfect.


Here is what I have personally learned in my walk so far with God. Faith is not some mental gymnastics as is popularly believed. Instead, faith is instead a collection of all the good works done in obedience to the commandments of Jesus Christ, trusting fully in the Father's lead.

God has work for everyone who believes in Him to do, and Jesus Christ never hid this fact from His followers in any way. He told them parable after parable explaining that there is indeed work to be done and every worker will be judged according to how well they do the work given them. So, yes, Faith is just as important as your works since they are not as independent of each other as many have, and continue to assume to this very moment.

Heaven is a reward available only to do who submit to the lead of the Spirit of God, obeying His commandments as a result. So, to everyone who wants to make it into the Kingdom of Heaven, that is very important.

P.S. All of Paul's letters were directed at those in the specified churches who already believed and had the Spirit of God living in them. Trying to understand one as one who has yet to understand the truth of God is like trying to climb over a high wall while in a wheelchair.

Thanks for your detailed response.
I'll take my time to give an equally detailed reply as soon as possible.

Ihedinobi3:
I'm not sure that I understand why you claim that one can't be certain of the Bible's stand on any issue.

To be clear, I see your examples and I understand that they are part of your argument. But as you yourself said, they are only a sampling of issues that you believe that the Bible is inconsistent or at least unclear about.

My concern then is to address the root rather than the symptoms. If I explained each of these things as I read them in the Bible, it will not solve the problem. The problem is that you are convinced that the Bible's position on things such as the examples you have provided cannot be known.

Therefore, my question is why do you have this conviction? Why is it not possible rather that it is just not easy to understand the Bible's position on any of these things?

Why not share what you believe is the Bible's stand on the doctrines highlighted first, then we can go from there.

Ihedinobi3:
Hello.

It would be easier to deal with your post if you made your complaint a little clearer.

I get that the 12 items that you listed out are supposed to be examples of inconsistencies in the Bible. It's not clear how they are though.

What are the Bible verses that give you reason to believe that these are inconsistencies?

The uncertainties stem from how you cant be certain about the Bible's stand on most issues.

Trinity.
Is God one God or Three Gods in One?
If God is one God, then Jesus can only be the Son of God and not God himself. Likewise the Holyspirit is God's active force and not God himself

Which is the Most important?
Faith, Love, Hope, Works or Patience?
While 1 Cor 13 tells us Love is the most important.
Tells us Faith is.
Revelations 2/3 tells us it is our works God would judge.

Tithing was part of the Laws. If the new covenant we are no longer under Law, just as circumcision and sacrifices are no longer required, tithes are no longer a requirement. Only cheerful giving as one desires is encouraged.

Speaking in tongues is supposed to be the primary evidence of baptism of the Holyspirit. Does that mean a Christian who doesn't speak in tongues does not have the Holyspirit?

The doctrine of eternal salvation.
John 3:16 speaks of eternal life in Christ.
Yet Revelations speaks of the fact that those who continue in sin would end up in hell fire.

Grace Vs Law
Does being under Grace abolish the Law? Should a Christian still be bound by Laws?

Faith Vs Works
Does Faith alone guarantee heaven or Faith without works is dead?

hoopernikao:
Brother. Myer , again?

You have so many things rolling on your mind but haven't taken time to look at them properly.

The way you drop snippet of words from scriptures shows where the issue lies: a wholesome study of the scriptures is missing.

When this is done, you will know that no other place you can find such consistency in writing than the scriptures.

Why not help us all out by answering them scripturally for the benefit of us all? Unless of course you confirm the Bible's inconsistencies on these.

hoopernikao:
Good, so now that you agreed that your interpretation is poor, you need to firstly humbly apologise for dragging all through and presenting the scriptures falsely. Then I await your apology too for taking my time before your confession

Do this for your own good o. �

Spiritual pride is when you can't even admit that you have never been used to heal anyone.

From the very time I asked you to share your testimony on here, you've employed more evasive tactics than a taichi master.
In case pastoring doesn't work out, you'll certainly make an excellent politician.

My emphasis on healing and spiritual gifts is, it is what confirms that Christianity is not just another religion.
It is what confirms you're not just ever studying and never coming to knowledge, speaking empty words.

As Paul aptly said,

1 Cor 2:4-6 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Likewise Jesus rightly answered John the Baptist, when he doubted him;

Luke 7:22 So he replied to the messengers, "Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor.

This being a confirmation that when the Spirit of the Lord is upon you, signs follow. Isaiah 61:1

So as you see my friend, until you manifest the gifts of the Spirit as well as the fruit, you're at best just practising religion and not manifesting the life of Christ.

I leave you to chew on that and let it ruminate.

Kobojunkie:
What part of my response to you contradicts what is written in both Luke 4 vs 1 and John 5 vs 19?

You claim that only Jesus' teachings were inspired by God. I'm simply letting you know that just like the Apostles, Jesus was being used by the Hokyspirit.

That Jesus, the man was God because he was driven and being used by the Holyspirit.

So the Apostles were also products of the Holyspirit working through them. And as such you cannot discard their teachings as teaching of men when they were inspired by the same Holyspirit that worked through Jesus Christ.

Kobojunkie:
Most of those beliefs are themselves inspired by the doctrines and traditions of men to begin with.

You will it written nowhere in any of the books of the prophets that the Bible is the word of God. So why do people believe in such?

In his letter to timothy, Paul supposedly writes that All scripture is inspired by the Spirit of God, but that entry fails the test set by God in both His Old Covenant and New Covenant - the law of two or three witnesses. The test demands that by the accounts of two or three witnesses can a matter be established. In this case, this claim is only found in that letter by Paul and nowhere else in all of the books that comprise what we know as scripture today.

We however know through the writings of the prophets that all knowledge(Good and Evil alike) belong to God, so it is safe that all knowledge(not just that contained in scripture) is inspired(belongs) to God.

Jesus Christ was born of the Spirit of God and Jesus Christ is the Word of God Himself in human body, the words of God is the very Truth out of God's mouth and is the teaching of the Spirit itself.

The big difference between the Word of God and the words of men is that the Word of God is the Truth of God, compared to that, the words of men(their doctrines and opinions) are lies.

To denounce all that which does not agree with that which emits out of God Himself is common sense(Wisdom). God is the one who worship and to whom the contract which you have through Jesus Christ belongs to. So it is common sense to obey His teachings over those of any other man, no matter their claims.

Read my quoted comment again. I've taken the effort to add the corresponding verses.

Jesus himself being driven by the Holyspirit (Luke 4:1).

He only spoke what his Father (the Holyspirit) revealed to him. John 5:19

MrPresident1:

I don't have any knowledge. If you have any challenges with understanding the Bible, pray to the One that commissioned it and ask for understanding.

You have simply said according to scriptures that
- You're a fool who has no fear of God. Proverbs 1:7
- You're perishing due to your lack of knowledge. Hosea 4:6

Kobojunkie:
So you were indeed giving ear to the doctrines and traditions of men(the teachings of the apostles included) instead paying more attention to the teachings of Jesus Christ Himself, the one who is our only Master and Teacher.

It is my understanding that unless you gain a full understanding of the teaching of Jesus Christ Himself, you can only appreciate any of the writings of the apostles(Paul included).

We know from God Himself that God is True, and God is Love, God is Life and also God is Spirit. Jesus Christ who is born of the Spirit of God, is the Truth of God meaning His teaching is Spirit .i.e. the teachings that leads to spiritual truth that we seek.
Jesus Christ is the Life, the Way back to the Father, and the Truth of God package as a Covenant for all those who will believe in Him.

Jesus Christ is in Heaven seated at the right hand side of God Himself, whereas the apostles and Paul and all believers who are dead, are still in their graves, waiting, for when Jesus Christ returns to judge them all for the works the have each done in His done. So, it should be no question you should choose above all else - always validate what you read against Jesus Christ, the truth of God.

Do you believe that the Bible is God's word?
Do you believe that all scripture is inspired by God? 2 Tim 3:16
Even the things Jesus taught were inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Likewise the things the Apostoes taught were inspired by the Holyspirit? 2 Peter 1:21

The only difference may be the measure of the Holyspirit and Grace given to them.

So to denounce the teachings of the Apostles and only hold that on Jesus true is to denounce the inspirations of God through the Holy spirit.

That said, if JesusChrist himself said there are things he wished to tell the disciples but could not because they could not yet bear them until the Holyspirit was given, then how do you denounce what they taught when it may have been the thing Jesus himself wanted to share but could not?

MrPresident1:
There are no uncertainties in the Bible. The Bible is the certain-tiest book ever written or compiled. It is more advanced than any computer ever devised than man. It is more current than tomorrow's news

If you do not understand anything, ask.

According to your knowledge. Until you study other verses and become exposed to the contradictions.

Does Grace abolish the Law?

Can a Christian still commit sin?

Does Faith only save or Faith without works is dead?

Is once saved forever saved? Or can a Christian lose his salvation?

Is Jesus Son of God or God?

Does every Christian receive the Holyspirit?

Are you a Christian if you do not have the gifts of the Holyspirit?

Can you have the gifts of the Spirit and not have the fruit of the spirit?

Should a Christian drink alcohol?

Should a Christian participate in Politics?

Are women allowed to speak in the church or even become leaders in the church?

Just to mention few. Answer this convincingly with scriptures and we'll continue from there.

Kobojunkie:
Is it possible that your confusion stems mostly from your giving ear to the doctrines and traditions of men Instead of the teachings that are in fact the Truth of God as taught you by Jesus Christ Himself?

Well, there are teachings of Jesus Christ and there are teachings of the Apostles.
Both contradicting each other on some doctrines.

Yet Jesus Christ himself there are things he could not share until the Holyspirit was given, after his death.

How then do we know that these things he could not share are what the Holyspirit revealed to his disciples especially Paul who seemed to contradict him the most?

Just when you think you understand anything about the Bible, you'll find another verse that proves otherwise. Below are some examples;

1.God is one and there's no one else beside him.

2. There are 3 that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the word and the Spirit and all three are one

3. Faith is the most important thing.

4. Works are the most important.

5. Love is the most important.

6. Tithing is for Jews. For a Christian, giving is as he cheerfully wills.

7. Jesus is God.

8. Every Christian should speak in tongues.

9. Once saved is forever saved.

10. Grace abolishes the Law.

11. Grace is without works/Grace is with works.

12. There is sin in heaven.