₦airaland Forum

Kobojunkie:
The Bible does not preach against anyone who doesn't accept Jesus Christ at all. Like Jesus Christ Himself said, He has not come to condemn but to save.

God,from the very garden of Eden, already all unbelievers to death(return to dust from which they were made). Jesus Christ came to save those who will believe in Him from that Death( and not from sin).

The apostles in their letters, addressed to believers mind you, are not meant to condemn unbelievers but instead condemn the actions of those believers who refuse to accept(trust) and obey the teachings of Jesus Christ.

According to the Bible every human being is damaged goods just because Adam and Eve's sin right?
So if you do not believe in Jesus as the Son of God you're condemned already. John 3:18-19

That is what the Bible teaches right or wrong?

Ihedinobi3:
I'm not sure why I should have been referring to anybody in that quote. Is there a reason why I should have?

For what it is worth -- that is, to give you the benefit of the doubt even though you don't deserve it -- I was discussing a point. That point was that Christians believe the Bible because their own conscience and the world around them affirm the authority of the Bible. It was made as part of a more comprehensive argument for the exclusivity of the understanding of the Bible to Christians. I explained that this is a position that atheists normally reject because this is a platform where any regulars would easily run into atheistic arguments challenging that point of view. In other words, I was anticipating an atheistic challenge in my deposition for the sake of the reader.

Now, whether you believe that this is what I meant or had in mind or not, the really important thing is that you made an interpretation of my own words independent of me. I obviously made no reference at all to you in that quote. Nor did I make any reference to your position or arguments. It was just a comment that you interpreted as you pleased. Interestingly, this very thing is what I have kept saying that you keep doing with the Bible. Perhaps then, it is a problem with you in general: interpreting things with no respect to their source.

If you had actually listened to anything I said earlier, you may never have come to the point of making yourself look like a liar.

I'm ignoring your next comment here.

I explained myself well, I believe. If you didn't understand what you read, you could always be more specific in your questions. I did explain about making the Christian walk hard for Christians, didn't I?

When you attempt to compare me to you, do you see me on the Islam section challenging the validity of the Qur'an? Why then do you think that we are the same just because there are things that we each don't believe in? I just told you that my policy (derived from the Bible) is that everyone has the right to believe whatever they want without reference to me. I don't challenge people's beliefs, as a rule. I make a point of not commenting on people's philosophy. That is just meddling for no good reason. How then are you and I the same?

You have been the one making recommendations to me up and down this thread. The only one that I have made to you is to leave Christians alone. I have previously engaged you on your challenges to the Bible. I have warned you of the dangers of opposing the Bible, as is my job to do since you decided to engage Christianity, but otherwise I have tried to give you no offense, to not interfere with your choices. You are free to believe whatever you want. Why are Christians not equally free to do so in your book?

Bluntly, challenging the validity of the Bible is threatening the eternal life of Christians. This is because eternal life can only be had by believing the Gospel and the source of the Gospel is the Bible. Therefore, anyone who challenges the validity of the Bible to "get Christians to stop being religious" is their bitter enemy aiming to cost them the most valuable thing that they could have.

So, yes, you are a bitter enemy of Christians.

And this is why I continue to call you religious.
You can't even validate that which you claim.
Continue to ignore questions that expose you.
How do you know you have the Holyspirit and what differentiates you from those who don't other than your claim that it helps you understand the Bible.
Well, you can as well choose to continue to ignore it.

Why I reference Islam is simple. As a Nigerian living in Nigeria those are the 2 major dominant religions.

Whether or not you challenge Muslims on Islamic threads on NL does not negate your religious judgment of them.

I mentioned earlier that the very fact that you're a religious Christian makes you judgmental.

My emphasis here is simply that religion is divisive.
Likewise anyone who practises it.

The Quran preaches against anyone who doesn't accept Islam in strong words and punishments even to the point of murder.
The Bible preaches against anyone who doesn't accept Jesus Christ in strong words and judgments too.
The Bible clearly refers to atheists as fools and every unbeliever as evil.
Christianity is even worse cos denominations even preach against and condemn each other.

Judaism likewise preaches strongly against its unbelievers too. Just as other religions do.

No matter how good a person is by human standard, as long as the Bible i concerned they are evil for not believing in Jesus Christ. Right or wrong?

If I'm a bitter enemy of Christians, then you are a bitter enemy of every non-Christian.

QED.

Ihedinobi3:
I was not enthusiastic about this conversation, to begin with. I doubt that I will continue with it beyond a certain point.

It is one thing to be mistaken and then be corrected and still ignore the correction. It is quite another to tell a bald-faced lie in the face of an accusation of dishonesty. It only means that you really don't care to behave in a manner that makes dealing with you a decent thing for anybody. That is, you don't care about your character. Discussing with such people at the very least exposes others to abuse and at the worst might force them to return abuse for abuse. That is why I might stop responding any time now.

Even if I had not previously accused you of dishonesty and made a case for it too, I certainly asked you to produce a quote where I said that anyone who disagrees with me is an atheist. Not only have you not done that, but you have also gone on now to make a bold claim that I called you an atheist. So, you've gone from suggesting that I believe that everyone who disagrees with me is an atheist to lying now that I called you an atheist. This is a very easy thing to prove. You only have to pull up a quote in any one of my multiple posts here that shows that I either think that anyone who disagrees with me on this forum is an atheist or called you an atheist.

If you are going to be a bold liar who is not afraid to lie when it is obvious that you are lying, then I will not respond anymore to you.

I never asked what your theology is. I don't care what it is. I really am not interested in what you believe. That was why I warned you that I wasn't looking for a debate. I am not interested in dissecting your beliefs or interrogating them. I believe that everyone is free to believe whatever they want without answering to me for it. I am happy to discuss what I believe with anyone who is interested in listening, but I'm also fine if any given person is just not interested. I only answered your thread because you attacked the Bible in public space in a way that mattered to me.

The only thing that interests me in your theology is that it is not a biblical one. Because it isn't, I really hate your pretension to expertise in the Bible. I would rather you just minded your own beliefs and left Christians alone, but then you would probably have nothing left to entertain you if you did.

I think that we're too far down the rabbit hole at this point for me to want to go any further with you. You obviously have no reasonable argument for your claims both that the Bible needs to account for how religions define apostasy and that the apostles apostatized from Moses to follow Christ. That is what this whole discussion was about although you have basically found it hard to walk a straight line in the conversation.

In the end, I reject any right you claim either to understanding the Bible or to interpreting it for anybody. You are a fraud in that regard and anyone who chooses to accept your claim to authority in the teachings of the Bible has himself or herself to blame for all that befalls them as a result. As for you, I do hope that you repent and believe the Gospel so that you will not suffer the judgment that God promised to all those who remain rebellious against HIm, but I don't presume to make any choices for you.

In the meantime, I consider you a bitter enemy of Christians. People who deliberately take on a role to make the Christian walk hard for Christians deserve all the judgment coming to them. I'll grant that there are many believers in Christ out there who are barely decent people, and I'll grant that there are many believers who are a nuisance to others with their claim to be bold Christians, but there are also many who are minding their business and living decent lives in accordance with what their Master teaches in the Bible. Harassing any Christian at all attracts the ire of their Master, but it is way worse when you harass those who are minding their godly business.

I really hope that you will, at least, leave Christians alone for your own peace, but if you won't, you deserve everything that's coming to you.

To an atheist, that argument is meaningless because the atheist rejects conscience and reality. This is why it is meaningless to argue with one. There is nothing to appeal to in order to reason with the atheist. It is impossible to persuade one who has dispensed with any ability to be persuaded. But the fact that the atheist cannot be persuaded or reasoned with does not even begin to mean that he or she is right.


Who were you referring to here?

And now you have called me a bitter enemy of Christians I emboldened it since your selective amnesia is becoming quite incurable.
How does questioning the validity of the bible make me a "bitter enemy of Christians?"

Are you bitter enemy of Muslims and other religions? lol

Ihedinobi3:
Not sure what you're on about. I don't believe that I said anywhere that anyone who disagrees with me is an atheist. Do you have a quote?

Next, I'm not sure why you think I should care about your opinions on biblical theology. I see no reason at all to believe that there are truths in the Bible that are open to anyone who is not a believer. This is what I read in the Bible:

11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:11 — 1Co 2:14 (NKJV)

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
Mat 13:10 — Mat 13:13 (NKJV)

14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
2 Corinthians 3:14 (NKJV)

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
2Co 4:3 — 2Co 4:4 (NKJV)

These are things that the Bible itself says. That is the authority on which I make my claims. On what authority do you make yours? If you deign to correct the Bible, how do I or anyone else know that you are right in your correction?

Apparently you do need the Holy Spirit to understand that. Or have you never heard the debate about whether the sixth commandment means that soldiers are sinning when they kill enemies in battle? Even if anyone gets it right, our consciences - as imperfect as they are - are still pretty good indicators for right and wrong. That does not even remotely mean that the simplest thing in the Bible is open to anyone without the Holy Spirit.

This is a fuller context of that passage that you quoted:

25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and your neighbor as yourself.’ ”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
29 But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
Luk 10:25 — Luk 10:29 (NKJV)

Why does he ask "who is my neighbor?" The Bible says that he was seeking to justify himself. Why did he need to do so if he already understood the Scriptures?

Of course, the Lord Jesus did not tell him that he needed the Holy Spirit. He told him to do what the law said and he would be alright. The Law is clear that no one can be perfect. If the lawyer tried with all his might, he would still fail to love God and his neighbor as the law teaches that we should. If he was an honest man who really wanted to have eternal life, his failure and desperation would drive him back to the Lord Jesus to find salvation. Finding salvation has meant receiving the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9) since the beginning of the Church Age after the Lord Jesus was glorified. The Lord Jesus did not need to spell all that out if the man really wanted the truth.

Since we both are broken records now, I'll repeat myself yet again: You are not qualified to make recommendations to me in these matters, and I couldn't care less what you think I sound like.

You jumped into conclusion as usual by calling me an atheist, didn't you? Guess the Holyspirit didn't reveal that to you.lol
I do believe in God, I just do not share the bible's idea and ideals of God. As it is not validated by experience.

Even Christians have differing theologies of God, is that not the reason for the numerous denominations?
Did the Holyspirit reveal these differing and even occasionally contradictory theologies? Selah.

I did agree with you that there are mysteries the Holyspirrit reveals.
My disagreement with you is your claim that no one without Holyspirit can understand what is written in the Bible simply by reading it.
You even went further to back your claim by quoting the verse where Jesus had to explain to the lawyer who his neighbour is. Why else would you do that?

Anyone who is interested can read and understand the Bible. The veil is simply not believing it and not being able to live according to it because like the Bible also says,

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with (W)fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.


Your claim that you have the Holyspirit is interesting. I'm curious, how do you know you have the Holyspirit?
What differentiates you from say someone without the Holyspirit?

Ihedinobi3:
I think that this response demonstrates beyond any doubt that you have no desire to be honest or reasonable. As I suspected and hinted at in an earlier conversation, your goal with all these debates you keep trying to start has nothing to do with learning anything. You are seeking entertainment but at the expense of the peace of Christians.

That you have no competence in the Bible does not have anything to do with my own claim to competence in it. So your quip about my own competence is meaningless.

Nonetheless, since you raised the issue, I am a Christian. I have read, reread, and still read the Bible. I have been taught what it says by a gifted and highly trained pastor-teacher. I also have a pastor-teaching gift that I have been honing and developing for a very long time but particularly more so over the past 3+ years.

These are qualifications that the Bible itself demands of those who claim the right to teach it. The least that anyone must have to even attempt to talk about anything in the Bible is that they should believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Without this faith, no one can have the Holy Spirit who gives the ability for anyone to understand things that the Bible teaches.

By your own admission, you don't believe the Bible. So you cannot have the Holy Spirit. If you don't, how then do you understand what you read in the Bible?

The argument that anyone can understand the Bible as long as they are literate in the language it is written is wildly foolish. No one in their right senses would make similar statements about any other body of knowledge. Not even novels are that easy to understand. A novel written about Nigerian experiences and realities would require some understanding of those experiences and realities to make sense of. The same is true of one written of any obscure culture that the reader does not know about.

The only way to make sense of a body of knowledge that one cannot access by oneself is to trust the authority providing access to it. If this were not so, education systems around the world would not exist.

Why does anyone trust the Bible rather than, say, the Qur'an? Because the world around us and our own consciences provide enough information and insight into what must be true of existence. If the world around us points to the existence of a Creator whose nature and character can be discerned in the way it all works and in the universal pull of the human conscience, then we have enough information to know whether the Bible or the Qur'an or any other book out there is the authority to listen to about that Creator.

To an atheist, that argument is meaningless because the atheist rejects conscience and reality. This is why it is meaningless to argue with one. There is nothing to appeal to in order to reason with the atheist. It is impossible to persuade one who has dispensed with any ability to be persuaded. But the fact that the atheist cannot be persuaded or reasoned with does not even begin to mean that he or she is right.

The argument is nevertheless true. The Bible can be believed about what it says because everything that we see in our daily experiences points to it as a trustworthy witness or authority on the subject of life, existence, God.

That is why we Christians believe it and have the Holy Spirit as a result to teach us what it means.

As for denying the obvious, you have already demonstrated yourself to be a liar. I, on the other hand, have yet to prove to be one. So your accusation is an empty one.

As for Matthew 5:16, what is there to interpret? Do you not see the words on the page? But then, such questions do you little good. You couldn't see the words if they stomped on you. The question I asked you was what part of the verse said anything about conversion. You were the one who raised it to make the argument. How does it help your position? Do you even know?

Certainly the Lord Jesus performed miracles. But who said that it was the miracles that converted anybody? Those who believed did so because of the words He spoke (John 6:67-68). Those who didn't would not no matter how great or how many His miracles were (John 6:60-66; 12:37).

I'm not sure whose faith you are referring to here. Acts 10:38-39 was part of Peter's argument that Jesus Christ is God's Savior and believing in Him is what saves anyone. He made that argument to Cornelius's household. When they believed it, they too became Christians just like him.

How was anyone to know that Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ, the One who was to come? How were they to believe His words when He was saying so many things that no prophet before had ever said? The miracles that He did were how. They were proof that God endorsed His message. That was why Peter and the others were given to see His Authority endorsed so many times through those miracles. They gave them the confidence to argue that He was truly the Christ. An
d when He was resurrected too, that completely sealed the deal for them.

It's interesting how your comment is full of false accusations and misinformation yet I'm the liar.

Quick education for you. Just cos someone doesn't agree with the Bible doesn't make them an atheist by the way.
Otherwise a Muslim should as well call you an atheist for not believing the Quran.
Not everyone who disagrees with you on NL is an atheist sir.

Here's another misinformation I better address.
Yes, the Holyspirit gives understanding of deep scriptural mysteries.
But without the Holyspirit any one can simply read and understand what the Bible says sir.

When the Bible says You shall not kill, do you need the Holyspirit to understand that?

Quick scriptural example.
And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”

He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”

So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”


Jesus did not say to him he does not have the Holyspirit. He agreed that the lawyer rightly interpreted the scripture. He was able to understand the greatest commandment of Loving God, and loving your neighbor as yourself.

Honestly, you will do yourself a lot of good to be less religious. Cos you're sounding just like the Pharisees and Saduccess who walked around like the sole custodians of the scriptures.

Ihedinobi3:
What part of Matthew 5:16 says anything about conversion?

I don't know, but it may be that you are distracted (or maybe drunk?), so you are failing to track this conversation. Not only have you not successfully produced any Scripture that talks about the role of experience in conversion, but I certainly have not offered one. So I don't see why you should expect to have seen anything of the sort from me.

I don't know what this bit about the major causes of apostasy is about. I don't recall discussing that at any point. I just responded to your thread to point out that the Bible is not obliged to agree with any religion about what apostasy means and that your notion that there was any converting going on with the apostles was wrong.

I also don't know what you are talking about signs. What signs? Where did you or I say anything about signs before now? Nonetheless, as I said, you have no competence in the Bible, so your presumption that you know what it says with regard to signs is ludicrous to say the least.

I didn't realise your great grand fathers wrote the Bible so you certainly must have all the sole competence in the Bible.

You're beginning to sound like a good friend of mine here.
Denying the obvious by evading the focal issue.

When Christ in Matthew 5:16 that through your good works men may glorify the father, what is your interpretation of that?

Was it not by the good works of Christ that his fame rose and he attracted and converted many followers?

Even Peter giving testimony to his works and not just his faith?

Acts 10:38-39
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree.

jesusjnr1:
It's a good thing to speak of what God did in those days, but we shouldn't settle for that because the same Spirit behind the those works is currently Earth-based.

Hence we should ensure that we yield ourselves to Him completely as those He used in those days had done, so that those things He did with them then, He shall also do with us now.

So that when we begin to speak of the impossible things God had done, we wouldn't only be speaking of the past but also the present.

God bless.

You've spoken my mind for the first time.

Why is it we can only turn to the bible when speaking of the great works/miracles of God?

Has he stopped performing miracles, I mean irrefutable miracles especially in our world that desperately needs miracles?

Shouldn't OP have been able to point to miracles he has experienced personally or witnessed?
After all, we should be seeing greater works that even Jesus Christ did.

MaxInDHouse:
I didn't found it my people wrote it so it's our heritage {Isaiah 54:17} from Genesis to Revelation was written by JWs so each JW must study it from cover to cover therefore when we talk please please please don't try to argue, because we are not talking about Maths, English, Commerce or Chemistry but our book (Bible)


I wouldn't have if you didn't argue the facts so i reminded you that you're chatting with a JW on what is WRITTEN in our book!


That is partially right but not accurate because Jesus' followers renounced Judaism for Christianity yet we can't call them Apostates!

You have successfully preached JW, now let's focus on the thread and Jesus. Thanks.

Ihedinobi3:
It would appear that you are not following this conversation very closely.

In case you forgot, your argument was that John extolled experience and that is what we should aspire to. I have just explained to you that you were wrong about that. Failing to own that error means that it was probably deliberate. That only means that you are a dishonest person. The business of every Christian needing to be a witness too is neither here nor there. That we are supposed to be witnesses too (not that this is necessarily true) does not mean that John was demonstrating the importance of experience in the passage you quoted.

Regarding that specific matter, Acts 1:8 was addressing the apostles primarily. They were the ones who were witnesses of Christ Himself. The rest of us who believe do so on the strength of their testimony. Although many people claim to have had visions of Jesus Christ, no one who believes the Gospel today has done so without some help from the testimony that these men and their cohorts left behind in the Bible. We today are not witnesses in that sense. We are only witnesses in the sense that we have seen what God can do when we believe the testimonies of those who wrote the Bible.

Again, you are not qualified to teach anyone the Bible.

I don't believe that there is anything in the Bible that says anything about anyone being converted by any works. People choose to believe or they choose not to believe. Sometimes they do so because of the behaviors of others that they witness. Sometimes they do so for other reasons. Either way, it is their choice.

Neither the Bible nor I care about religions of any hue or shade.

Don't care what I sound like to you.

Your opinion is both wrong and yours to bother with. I couldn't care less if you believe that the moon is made of cheese.

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

I keep pointing you to scriptures that confirm the role of experience in conversion, yet you have not beem able to show me one.

Anyway, that is simply one of the major causes of apostasy. Lack of experience.

It's sad that when someone asks for signs, a Christian is easily offended. Where as, in the bible, it was seen as an opportunity to prove the validity of faith and also evangelise.

Ihedinobi3:
Well, if that is your response, there is not much hope for this conversation. But then I didn't hold out any to begin with.

First, it really means nothing to me what you think I sound like. As I already told you elsewhere, I am a pastor-teacher. My job is to teach the Bible to anyone who is willing to learn it. Not my problem if you disapprove.

As for 1 John 1:1-3, as with many things in the Bible that you are incredibly quick to opine about, you are quite wrong. John concluded the statement you quoted with:

4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.
1 John 1:4 (NKJV)

If he was extolling experience as you claim that he was, he would not be making an issue of writing to anyone so that those people would have "full joy." He would rather be encouraging them to seek their own experience. Interestingly, the same John recorded the prayer of Jesus in John 17 lending credence to verse 4 above:

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word...
John 17:20 (NKJV)

So, there is nothing at all to your claim that John made that much of experience. He was only fulfilling his job of being a witness. Witnesses report what they saw or experienced. That does not mean that everyone has to be a witness in order to judge issues correctly. If that were true, we might as well dispense with all the legal systems in the world.

For what it is worth, I would advise that you not bother to debate with me on things that the Bible teaches. I don't mean that you either can never be right or that you have no right to do so just because you don't believe the Bible. I only mean that you will be quite disappointed in your expectations of such discussions and in order to avoid quarrels and similar waste of time, I may not respond. I'm saying this in response to your comment about my reconsidering anything that I have written. You don't even begin to have the qualifications necessary to recommend such a thing to me.

As for Paul, I'm not sure why his Jewishness means anything. I don't see how your argument responds to my own.

As for John 5:39, this is a more correct translation:

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
John 5:39 (KJV)

You said John was fulfilling his job of being a witness.
What of you?
Doesn't every Christian have the job of being a witness?

Acts 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

So it is your experience that makes you a witness not just your faith.

No where in the Bible has faith converted anyone. It is the works that accompany the faith that inspires others.

Every other religion has it's faithfuls, it is the results that religion produces that converts.

Moses could not lead the Israelites out of Egypt except by the signs and wonders he performed.
Jesus could not even call his disciples except by his signs and wonders.
The Apostles could not spread the Gospels except by their signs and wonders.

So negating the place of experience is simply saying you can believe in any religion regardless of your experience.

Whether or not I'm qualified to debate/discuss the Bible with you? Sounds like spiritual pride to me.

Anyway, I believe the Bible just as much as you believe the Quran.
After all both are books of man-made religions claiming to be inspired by God yet in disagreement with each other.
Had you been born in an Islamic nation, you would have been anti-Christian and heralded he Quran with the same passion you're showing towards the Bible.

MaxInDHouse:
The highlighted!
Please stop arguing when chatting with us (JWs), the Bible is our book! Luke 6:13

Lol just cos you found where the word apostle was used in the Gospels you are bragging about JW already?

Can you have a decent conversion without bringing JW into it? Why not focus on Jesus instead?

Without digressing, atleast we can both agree now that apostasy is simply renouncing a religion for another.

MaxInDHouse:
There are two group tags found in the Bible: Disciples and Apostles
Centuries before Jesus people have been called "disciples" for holding onto some forms of beliefs.
According to the Bible Jesus is the first person to select a few out of his numerous disciples and labelled them "Apostles"
Apostles were the first set of Jesus' disciples to start speaking against their former religious leaders in Judaism. So while Jesus had many disciples who only believe in his teachings but won't stand publicly to declare it in the midst of Judaists. The Apostles will go right into the Temple where Judaism is the order and start preaching Christianity which their former religious leaders can't refute so their former religious leaders resort to violence!

The word Apostates almost had the same meaning but the difference is while Apostles had substantial amount of evidence to speak against Judaism and uphold Christianity everywhere they go, Apostates only abandoned their former religious beliefs and pitch their tent to speak against their teachers, there is no substance in their criticism.
They can never MAKE or PRESENT any better performing group!

Jesus did not label anyone apostle sir.

As far as the Bible is concerned, the word apostle wasn't mentioned until after the death and resurrection of Christ.

Apostasy has nothing to do with what you profess. It is simply you renouncing one religion for another.

Ihedinobi3:
Hello.

Please don't consider my response an invitation to a debate. I would be happy to discuss with you if I find good reason to, but I'm answering this mainly because it is a sensitive issue put out in public.

First, I certainly agree that apostasy applies in a general sense to all religions. What I don't see is why the Bible has to hold brief for any religion. If the Bible speaks of apostasy, why does it have to account for the Islamic point of view on apostasy, for example? If Islam wishes to define apostasy some way and allocate some reward or consequence to it, what does that have to do with the Bible? The Bible is a closed system.

Second, I don't know why anyone would argue that the apostles apostatized from any religion to follow Christianity. This kind of comment betrays a gross miseducation in the Bible and a wild ignorance of the Scriptures.

What is called Judaism today is not what the Bible recognizes as the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses was not a separate religion from Christianity. What it was is a demonstration of Christ. That is to say that there was no true adherent to the Law who was not a believer in Christ.

The Law promised the Messiah. All the sacrifices in the Law were illustrations of the Cross of Jesus Christ. All the commands demonstrated the perfection that we are called to and can never attain. Because no one can keep the whole Law, the Law demonstrates the true desperate situation of man and the terrible need we have for the perfect Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Therefore, beginning with Adam and Eve in the Garden and going on through Abel and later Seth all the way through the Law and Prophets, blood sacrifice according to the pattern that God Himself prescribed was a demonstration of faith in His Promise to send a Savior who would take our place in judgment. So, all those who followed Moses would necessarily also follow Christ since Moses is all about what Christ would be when He came.

There is then no apostasy when anyone listens to Jesus Christ after listening to Moses. If Moses was telling them that Jesus Christ would be the fulfillment of all the shadows that he was casting and that they should therefore listen to Him when He came (Deuteronomy 18:15), then doing so is not apostatizing from Moses.

The Law was what Christ fully embodied and perfected. All those who follow Christ satisfy the demands and teachings of the Law. Those who don't follow Him do not.

You do realise you sound religious right?
Religion confines you to a myopic thinking.
Youre only judging issues strictly on what was written in the Bible, without personal experiences.
Even John confirms the importance of experience.

1 John 1:1-3
That (B)which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have (C)seen with our eyes, (D)which we have looked upon, and (E)our hands have handled, concerning the (F)Word of life— 2 (G)the life (H)was manifested, and we have seen, (I)and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was (J)with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is (K)with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.


Concerning your point that the conversion of Jews to Christianity cannot be considered to be apostasy, hope this will help you reconsider;

Paul was sent by Jewish leaders to persecute and even kill them if necessary right?
So he was a Jew until he converted to Christianity.

The reason most Jews could not accept Christianity by the way is because they're obeying the same God's words as documented in their Laws in the old testament.

Interestingly Christ himself proved God's words cannot save. While trying to sell himself to the Jews.lol

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

RuudVanNisteroy:
Why won't the price be high when in a monopoly you can dictate the profit you get in the industry. Monopoly is destructive to the economy and the United States government warned these clowns in government about the damaging effect of monopolies in industries like cement on the common man in the street and local businesses.

Now the government is begging the two monopolists Dangote and Rabiu to bring the price down.

Exactly.
How else will he be the richest black man if he reduces the price?

Those celebrating Dangote's wealth have obviously not done their research.

Monogamy:


It don tey wey savage dey oo.

Gowon 12 - 0 Ojukwu



We have advised you people to relocate back to your region..

Stop collecting monthly oil money

Let all your reps, senators, serving ministers withdraw their service, after then we can take you people serious

Buhari has vindicated Ojukwu.

With the policies and mindset of the North, it is clear one Nigeria to them means a Nigeria where the North rules while the milk on the South.

As much as I do not support Ojukwu's approach which led to a colloidal loss, I believe we can achieve a peaceful disintegration of Nigeria just like Brexitl, if we truly practise Democracy.

shadeyinka:
The Qur'an and Allah says trinity is the partnership of God, Mary and Jesus!


Qur'an5:117
God will say: ‘Jesus Son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind: “Worship me and my mother as gods besides God?”’
‘Glory be to you,’ he will answer, ‘I could never have claimed what I have no right to.’

Ok, not that Mohamned believed in Trinity but his perception of Trinity was observed as practised by Catholics.

Thanks for sharing.

Biodun556:
‘Is There Anything Wrong With Stealing A Good Man From An Ungrateful Woman?’ – Lady Asks, Sparks Reactions Online
https://twitter.com/beckyfrancis_/status/1371723286804099072?s=20
The lady identified as Becky Francis on Twitter wanted to know if it is wrong to steal a good man from another woman who is careless and ungrateful.

Even religiously God is against anyone thats ungrateful.

If you win the man without fornication, of course regious people won't see anything wrong in it.
Either by becoming a second wife or marrying him after he divorces her.

Cos he clearly could not be happily married cos every man wishes for a woman who values him.

Both partners in a marriage should feel grateful for marrying each other. When it's one-sided and not mutual then there's definitely going to be issues.

shadeyinka:
I won't blame you for not understanding this theme you have written on.
Even Allah was confused by saying that Trinity is God, Mary and Jesus!

Can you shed more light on this? What exactly was said and why?

The best way to face your fears is to confront them.

Some fears are real while most are imaginary.

It takes confronting your fears to overcome them.

Apostasy by definition simply means
Specifically, the renunciation of one's religion or faith.

This obviously points to the fact that apostasy is normal. In fact Jesus Christ and his disciples spurned an apostasy where people renounced their Jewish and other religions from their beliefs to follow Christianity.

This is important because when a Muslim leaves Islam for Christianity, Christians don't call it apostasy but salvation.
Where as to the Muslims it is the worst form of apostasy.
Unfortunately, Muslims reward apostasy usually by killing the apostate.

The point of this all is to state that while Christians preach how bad apostasy is, even the apostles were apostates before they became Christians.

In fact all the apostles were Jews before they were converted into Christianity.

The truth is apostasy has always been important in any conversion from one religion to another.
In fact as far as Nigeria and other colonised nations are concerned our ancestors were all apostates of their religions before they converted to Christianity.

So next time you read this scripture you have to ask, is there any greater apostasy than the one achieved by colonialists yet the Day has not yet come.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
Now, brethren, (A)concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (B)and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 (C)not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come (D)unless the falling away comes first, and (E)the man of [b]sin is revealed, (F)the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and (G)exalts himself (H)above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For (I)the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, (J)whom the Lord will consume (K)with the breath of His mouth and destroy (L)with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is (M)according to the working of Satan, with all power, (N)signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among (O)those who perish, because they did not receive (P)the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And (Q)for this reason God will send them strong delusion, (R)that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but (S)had pleasure in unrighteousness

MaxInDHouse:
Jesus did God's work not his own personal work {John 4:34} so we are talking about the produce of that work. Jesus emphasized on the primary aim of God's work when he said it's all about loving God and neighbours! Matthew 22:37-40
Jesus did this work physically while he was on earth but hardly could he make LOVE reign among his faithful disciples because even his closest confidants keep striving among themselves for superiority and these are the ones the other hundreds are looking onto as Apostles!
Jesus now said those who truly believe in him will do GREATER WORKS than what he did, i am telling you authoritatively that he was referring to the WORK emphasized @ Matthew 22:37-40.
During his lifetime there was little or no love amongst his disciples but after God's Holy Spirit started working with them this love began growing and today Jesus' true followers JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES has done what Jesus himself could only foresee but was unable to achieve while he was here. The LOVE for God and neighbours has united well over 8,700,000 people from different geographical locations and races on this planet!
If you're talking about God's WORK think about Matthew 22:37-40, Jesus said on this two commandments all the laws and prophets (both the miracle performing prophets and none miracle performing prophets) hangs!
So God's WORK that Jesus did was primarily the same as all those prophets to instill LOVE for God and neighbours in the minds of worshipers, there's no value in miracles when LOVE, JOY and PEACE can't be found amongst people claiming worshipers of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!
That's the TRUTH Sir!

Are you saying the Spiritual gifts are not important?

The only reason I believe JW don't believe in spiritual gifts is cos honestly it is difficult to find those who manifest these spiritual gifts even though the bible claims it is the gift of God to all men. Acts 2:39.

But that doesn't mean you should interpret the bible to suit your own experiences. What the bible says can not be denied.

hoopernikao:
I thought your lack of not reading properly and in context is only affected from your study of the scriptures, i never knew, even normal conversation you cant read in context. I hope this is not how you read letters when they are written to you.

Dont be too fast to jump into a conclusion, read through thread, post that were made along the discussions.

Kobojunkie says only the word of Jesus in the bible is valid at least for NT, that other instructions there (NT) arent expect directly commanded by Jesus, He says that the practices in epistles arent valid because they are words of men but not of God. Does that sound as scriptures to you.

If Epistles are words of men as said by Kobojunkie, because they are spoken and written by men, the words of Jesus he is reading was it dropped from heaven. Was it not men's instrument that God used to give us the same scriptures?

You no dey read properly at all and i have told you its affecting you.

The inspired scriptures (by the Holyghost), was put down by men used of God to do the same. Selecting part and refusing others is denying the inspiration of books together. Men are used by the Holyghost, let that ring well in your ears.

2 Timothy 3:10 “But thou hast fully known my doctrine...

That is a man, hence his doctrine becomes a scripture because the inspiration behind those words was the Holyghost. Hence, men are the vessels.
Its only someone who lacks honor for what and who God used that will neglect men who wrote the scriptures and then he will spite the scriptures.

I hope you get this well now.

I followed your discussion quite alright and in fact you still don't get his point. So clearly it's you who as I rightly asserted "are quite slow."

Apparently it's not only spiritual gifts you are lacking but also basic comprehension. I can't keep teaching you the elementary principles when you should be eating the meat by now.

The synoptic gospel are most unique in the whole texts of the bible because unlike the other books in the bible they are supposedly the express words of Jesus Christ as documented by his own disciples. Which was why I quoted the scripture where Jesus himself said no one has seen the Father at any point except him.

The point here being the other prophets and apostles could have wrongly expressed the inspiration of the Holy spirit but Jesus being the embodiment of and express image of God himself could not possibly have misinterpreted God's mind.

This point is very important for you to understand and stop arguing this very fact.
Because when other scriptures confuse you, the synoptic gospels remain how you can rightly divide the word of truth according to the word of Jesus Christ himself.

Instead of arguing blindly concerning this, your focus should not be to prove that there's nothing special in the words of Jesus compared to the other disciples but rather to help validate why the other books also play their part in helping build the Christian.

That said, I leave you with the words of Peter, "But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the [a]Christ, the Son of the living God."

MaxInDHouse:
Jesus said those that believe in him will do GREATER WORKS! John 14:12

Definitely Jesus doesn't mean spiritual gifts (miracles) when he utter this statement because there has never been any of Jesus' disciples who performed any miracle worth tenth of what Jesus did!

What about LOVE?

Well Jesus preached, taught, prayed even rebuked his imperfect disciples and until his death there was little or no LOVE binding this people as one because they always argue and strive for superiority amongst themselves even when he is with them! Luke 22:24-27

But today Jesus' true followers (JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES) are numbering in millions, his first 12 friends were all Jews yet it was so difficult for Jesus to make love unite them during his lifetime but today they're from all over the earth, they have settled not just selfishness or nepotistic ambitions that was dividing Jesus' followers while he was with them but broken all racial boundaries to form one big and happy family of peace loving worshipers globally! John 17:20-23 compare to Isaiah 2:2-4

YES! Jesus' true followers today have done the greatest work that Jesus himself could only foresee but never achieved in his lifetime!

But did they perform miracles? Yes.

If you claim the works he was referring to love, are you saying any of his disciples showed greater love than Christ? The one who laid down his life for the world?

While Love is the ultimate, there's no denying the part spiritual gifts play in the faith and in living a victorious Christian life.

Otherwise you call God a liar if you deny the importance of spiritual gifts.

hoopernikao:
Read your statement below.

You could easily have made it easy for yourself by just being honest JUDGEMENT
spiritual pride will not kill you JUDGEMENT
already have all it takes to be a fine politician. JUDGEMENT


I choose to point to your straws above since you claimed you are being judged.
You could see that the reason you complained of being judged, felt unease and started throwing straws was because you are full of judgement.

AMEN
I tried to big the Amen o but e no gree big...

Well, you're the one who professes to be like Christ, so you are not supposed to judge even if others do.

The only reason I said you were judgmental was simply cos you already concluded that I had not read the bible but reading it haphazardly.

Virtually every form of assertion can be attributed to judgment. But what makes it worse for Christians is that while Jesus clearly said do not judge for you will be judged, the bible also by itself already judged any one who does not believe in Jesus Christ as condemned already.

So as a Christian you can't help but judge non-Christians.

Also the worst is some Christians even judge other Christians that do not believe the same doctrines as they do. Which is why I said the very fact that you're a religious Christian makes you judgmental.

Anyway, I will no longer bother you concerning your spiritual gifts as it's obvious they are non-existent.
Even if you do not want to speak of your testimonies, others on your posts would have mentioned it having experienced divine healing or any other form of divine power through your posts. Apparently that's not the case.

You can try to deny it all you want but what is supposed to differentiate a Christian from just another religion are the spiritual gifts and fruit. Because every other religion has faith in their God or gods.

But the works a Christian faith produces are love and spiritual gifts.

BabaOwen:
I hope you're searching for his replacement in the south.

When you understand the psyche of the Northerner, you'll realise they see Nigeria as their country while the rest of us are more like aliens.

I saw a video of an hausa scholar in an exchange debate in UK as far back as 1957 confidently expressing their dislike for Christians and how the country belongs to the North.

I can assure you not a lot has changed since then.

Last last, restructuring or secession is the surest way to liberate the South.

soulpeppersoup:
When I was there, I was shocked to find out that the noise about him preaching prosperity messages was wrong.

The point is that, the so call righteousness message is misunderstood.

Because of the misunderstanding, people view others messages with bias mind.

Juxtapose his preaching with 1 Timothy 6:5-12 especially the bolded.

b]useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. [c]From (D)such withdraw yourself.

6 Now godliness with (E)contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, [d]and it is (F)certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and clothing, with these we shall be (G)content. 9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

11 But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

KNOWMORE56:
And up till now you've not told us your preferred version, which means you know that the KJV remains the best...

Do you agree that there are versions of the Bible that contradict the original text?

I had to find the hebrew-english Bible when I realised that even KJV and NKJV contradicted each other in some core verses.

Antoeni:
WHEN THE CHURCH BECOMES A BUSINESS

1) Pastors function like CEOs
2) Members are turned into customers
3) Other churches are seen as competitions
4) Evangelism is reduced to marketing
5) Church planting looks more like franchising.

6) Numbers are primary measure of success
7) Prayer and Word study are replaced by formulas
Revival is reduced to a few days fund-raising
program
9) Preaching sounds more like motivational speech. All the people do is shout "I receive, Amen," throughout the concert. I mean the "service".
10) Praise and Worship is turned into a
performance. The best actors are made the worship and praise leaders.
11) The Spirit of God is reduced to "emotionalism". No real power of God other than hypnosis and sensationalism.

12) The saints are entertained instead of equipped
13) Disciples of Christ have become papa's sons, daughters and fans.
14) The Church, a living Body has now become a lifeless body
15) A leader's empire is built instead of the
Kingdom of God advanced
16) The pastor becomes the super man and Jesus Christ reduced to just another religious figure.

You've said it all.
Nothing to add or remove.

hoopernikao:
I pointed it out to you that the scriptures in your hand that you read, the very word of Jesus you read are documented by man. They are man's doctrine Sir. God used man to speak to you. Get that right. The commanded of Jesus you speak about, was it not given to you by man?

Secondly. You said you obey and trust Jesus commandment.

Is Mathew 28:19 not Jesus commandment again.

So,

1. Are you making disciples in obedience to His words?
2. How are you making disciples without gathering with such?

You're quite slow.

That men wrote down the words of Jesus makes them man's doctrines?
You're beginning to sound like one who simply argues for argument sake.

Even a babe in the faith knows the words of Jesus Christ scripturally can't be compared to the words of any of the old prophets or apostles. After all, no one has seen God at any point except Christ.

In your typical mode of blind arguments instead of just letting Kobojunkie see why other books are also important you've succeeded in calling the doctrines Christ taught simply no different from man's doctrines.

At this point, it is pointless to engage you any further. You simply argue off-point.

hoopernikao:
You didn't read Jesus word properly Sir.

Matthew 11:4
4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:

He wasn't giving testimony.

Read the bold again.
They heard and saw. So you will do the hearing and seeing, hence start going from one church to another and spectate so as to gather your conviction.
. In fact if you read properly you will know that Jesus was actually scolding John and his disciples.

So, if you want to be as John's disciples go on the streets of men and start investigating and looking for the power of God so as to be convinced.

No where is the miracle worker giving PR of His miracles. Not even Paul or Peter or any of the apostles. No such practice. Such PR is left for the unbelievers.

Lol he even scolded them in your own bible?

Like I said earlier, you already have all it takes to be a fine politician.
Well, I'll take your posts as your testimony. Shikena

You could easily have made it easy for yourself by just being honest but spiritual pride will not kill you. I hope you said a big amen to that.

Have a good night.

stancydg:
It is only those whose eyes are veiled by the god of this world that'll interpret such good news that The Lord Himself commanded to be preached throughout the world as a licence to sin, instead of the Power of God to salvation to the Jews first and then, the Gentiles. How on earth can a man share the divine nature with God and still be subject to iniquity? I quoted the scriptures or are you saying the Word of God is untrue? Please back up your belief that Christians should continue to struggle not to sin by trying to observe the laws you listed, with the Word of God or are you just following what they told you since birth?

For your information, Col3:3 says it already of the believer; For [as far as this world is concerned] you have died, and your [new, real] life is hidden with Christ in God. The believer is dead to sin and it can't have dominion over him. The righteousness of God confers a supernatural nature on the believer. That nature doesn't even know what sin is all about. Its your "homo sapienic" nature that has been sin programmed and that's why it is subject to it. Indeed it can't please God even if it tried. Check this out in Rom 7 from verse 4.

" Likewise, my brethren, you have undergone death as to the Law through the [crucified] body of Christ, so that now you may belong to Another, to Him Who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God.

5 When we were living in the flesh (mere physical lives), the sinful passions that were awakened and aroused up by [what] the Law [makes sin] were constantly operating in our natural powers (in our bodily organs, in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh), so that we bore fruit for death.

6 But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it, having died to what once restrained and held us captive. So now we serve not under [obedience to] the old code of written regulations, but [under obedience to the promptings] of the Spirit in newness [of life].

7 What then do we conclude? Is the Law identical with sin? Certainly not! Nevertheless, if it had not been for the Law, I should not have recognized sin or have known its meaning. [For instance] I would not have known about covetousness [would have had no consciousness of sin or sense of guilt] if the Law had not [repeatedly] said, You shall not covet and have an evil desire [for one thing and another].

8 But sin, finding opportunity in the commandment [to express itself], got a hold on me and aroused and stimulated all kinds of forbidden desires (lust, covetousness). For without the Law sin is dead [the sense of it is inactive and a lifeless thing].

9 Once I was alive, but quite apart from and unconscious of the Law. But when the commandment came, sin lived again and I died (was sentenced by the Law to death).(Study and meditate on the rest of the chapter into the next one)

The earlier you believed God's Word, the better for you. When you accept God's free gift of righteousness as against your self effort, you'll find out that you'll stop being so conscious of sin as to be able to list it out the way you did previously on this thread. Rather, you'll start being righteousness conscious and doing right will be natural with you because what's right and how to do it will be engraved on your heart, not on those tablets of stones.

Get it right now, NOT EVERYONE IS STRUGGLING WITH SIN THE WAY YOU DO. You can free yourself. You know what to do. Be born again!

You need to marry your theology with the Lord's prayer.
To establish the kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven.
Does the kingdom you see presently resemble what the kingdom of heaven was described to look like?

Now if the Bible says a Christian can no longer sin. That would be great. Cos apparently a lot of verses in the new testament would be redundant and pointless.

What's the point of Galatians 5:16-21 when a Christian can no longer sin?

16 I say then: (U)Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For (V)the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, (W)so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But (X)if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now (Y)the works of the flesh are evident, which are: [d]adultery, [e]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, [f]murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that (Z)those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Whats the point of Revelations 3 & 4 where God addresses the 7 churches judging them according to their works?

Whats the point of Revelations 21:7-8 if a Christian can no longer sin?

He who overcomes [d]shall inherit all things, and (O)I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 (P)But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in (Q)the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”