₦airaland Forum

[size=14pt]A 'Debt-Breaking' or' Money multiplying' Anointing[/size]

From time to time, people ask me about some preacher who either claims—or is said by others—to be especially anointed to "break the power of debt" over people's lives or to be able to "multiply people's money back to them." In most cases, this special anointing or ability can only be activated by giving an offering to this minister or the organization he represents.

There is not one bit of Scripture I know about that validates such a practice. I'm afraid that it is simply a scheme to raise money for the preacher, and ultimately it can turn out to be dangerous and destructive for all involved. We need to be extremely careful about elevating certain ministers to higher-than-human status. Our focus should be on God rather than man. Certainly, money can be more productive for the Kingdom of God when it is sown into a productive ministry. And there are gifted ministers skilled at building confidence and motivating people. But Christians should be giving to help get the Gospel out and to do God's work, not to get some "highly anointed minister" to multiply their money back to them.

Some people may be tempted to give, not just to bless God's work, but out of greed for the material gain they hope to get for their own selfish purposes. A person who feels that he is in bondage to debt may give a minister most or all of the money he has out of desperation. He hopes against hope that the minister will help him get such a miraculous return from his offering that he can pay off his debts and get a fresh start.


I've heard of people with large credit-card debts or medical bills who had been told to expect "supernatural debt cancellation." Then, through a computer mistake or human error, they received a statement showing that they no longer owed anything or owed a substantially smaller amount. In some cases, a bank deposit was posted incorrectly, giving them credit for a larger amount that was enough to pay off an indebtedness.

There is nothing "supernatural" about these kinds of events. Trying to take advantage of them will only lead to more trouble. If some kind of mistake is made in which a Christian is credited with money that he knows doesn't belong to him, he has amoral, ethical, and biblical obligation to rectify the matter.

For most people, getting out of debt is not an or overnight process. They don't experience a single miraculous "breakthrough" in which God dumps a big lump sum in their lap. Usually it involves many months—maybe years—of hard work, diligence, good money management, wisdom, living within one's means, and the blessings of God that come through faith.

The minister who claims to have a "debt-breaking" or "money-multiplying" anointing is in danger of being led deeper into error. Instead of presenting a balanced message of the full Gospel and fulfilling the call of God on his life, he may become a narrowly-focused "specialist," dealing only with money and financial gain. He may even develop into such a skilled fundraiser that he becomes a "hired gun," brought in by other ministry organizations to raise money for them (for a "cut" of the "take".

[size=14pt]The Hundredfold Return[/size]

The idea that God will reward our giving by paying a one-hundred-to-one return on what we give to His work has become a very popular concept. It is almost commonplace to hear ministers refer to it at offering time, urging people to "give generously and believe God for a hundredfold blessing."

Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, but he shall receive an HUNDREDFOLD now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
—Mark 10:28-30

Notice that there is nothing said in this passage about tithes or offerings. The context refers to people who have made an absolute commitment to follow the call of God upon their lives, leaving their former possessions, families, and lifestyles behind(see also Matthew 19:27-29 and Luke 18:28-30).

What did Jesus mean? Was He literally promising each disciple a hundred pieces of real estate for each one they had forsaken, and a hundred brothers or sisters for each sibling left at home, and a hundred fathers and mothers or wives and children? In studying the lives of the disciples, we find no record of any of them ever acquiring such possessions—except for persecutions.

What did Jesus mean when He said they would receive a hundredfold of houses and family? Wiser men than me who have spent lifetimes studying the Scriptures and the life and times of Jesus have given their interpretation. To these itinerant evangelists who would become missionaries to the world, traveling alone with little more than the clothes on their backs, He promised that houses in strange lands would open their doors to them—a hundred, if need be. He promised that as they preached the Gospel of the Kingdom and won souls to Christ, they would enjoy fellowship with countless brothers, sisters, mothers, and fathers—a multiplied family of faith.

Is the hundredfold return available for us today? Yes, of course, it's available for all who have left everything to commit their all for the sake of Christ and the Gospel!

Does the hundredfold return mean that when we give an offering, we should get out a calculator and compute the monetary payback we expect to receive at the rate of one hundred to one? In other words, if we give a dollar to God's work, are we promised that He will give us a hundred dollars back?

Let's consider a hypothetical example of what would happen if an individual actually had this happen just seven times in his life. Since the purpose of prosperity is to provide believers with the resources to do God's work, we'll assume that once this individual began his giving with a dollar and received his multiplied return, he "reinvested" the total amount back into the Kingdom of God by giving again.

Here's how that scenario would play out with the hundredfold return working a mere seven times:
$1 x hundredfold return = $100
$100 x hundredfold return = $10,000
$10,000 x hundredfold return = $1,000,000
(Note: If the hundredfold return worked just three times from an initial dollar offering, the donor would be a millionaire!)
$1,000,000 x hundredfold return = $100,000,000
(That's a hundred million dollars!)
$100,000,000 x hundredfold return = $10,000,000,000 (ten billion dollars)
$10,000,000,000 x hundredfold return = $1,000,000,000,000(one trillion dollars)
$1,000,000,000,000 x hundredfold return =
$100,000,000,000,000 (one hundred trillion dollars!)

At the time of this writing, the man with the most financial wealth in the world is considered to be Bill Gates of Microsoft; his net worth is estimated to be as much as $85 billion. So a person for whom the hundredfold return worked as described above would have 1,176 times more money than Bill Gates!

If the hundredfold return worked literally and mathematically for everyone who gave money in an offering, we would have Christians walking around with not billions or trillions of dollars, but quadrillions of dollars!

[size=14pt]Naming Your Seed[/size]

Some ministers have put a great deal of emphasis on the practice of "naming your seed." They have told people, "When you get your offering out, give it a name. If a farmer wants to harvest corn, he plants corn. If he wants to harvest cotton, he plants cotton. So name your offering as seed for what you want to receive."

I'm not sure that "naming your seed" is necessarily scriptural. I can't find any verses that specifically support the practice. Perhaps for some people it is a way of being specific about what they are believing God for. It is good to be specific with our faith, but I also believe it's important not to try to restrict the benefits of a particular offering to a specific result.

I personally don't "name my seed," saying that I'm giving my offering in order to reap such-and-such. I just believe God to supply all my needs. I believe that the Lord is my Shepherd and that I shall not want. So I give because I love the Lord.

Because "naming your seed" is not a Bible-based practice, I would urge preachers to be careful not to use this as a gimmick to persuade people to give.

A fellow minister once said, "Being focused on what we receive as a result of our giving corrupts the very attitude of our giving nature. Our focus must not be on what we receive as the result. Rather, our focus needs to be on giving as an expression of our love for our Lord and Savior and the fact that it pleases Him."

[size=14pt]Giving To Get[/size]

A popular teaching in recent years has been that giving should be mechanically linked to getting. If you need something, give something. Sow a car to get a car. Sow a suit to receive a suit. This is another example of taking a basic truth and carrying it to the extreme. Like any other biblical truth, there is a ditch of error on both sides of the road.

There are some people who do not seem to realize that God wants to bless them. They have no understanding at all of the practical application of the law of sowing and reaping in their personal lives. As a result, giving for them is strictly a matter of duty. They may give, but they have no faith or expectation whatsoever about receiving anything from God. This is unfortunate because they undoubtedly miss out on some of the blessings that God has for them.

On the other side of the road are the greedy folks who are attempting to use their giving to manipulate God. They try to make the offering plate some kind of heavenly vending machine—put in your offering, pull the handle, and get your blessing back! This is certainly the wrong motive for giving. Some people go so far with this kind of thinking that they get into foolishness, giving away their car in the hope of getting another, presumably better, car. These people sometimes end up walking for a long time!

I am quite sure that there could be an occasion when God would deal with an individual about giving his car to some person or ministry. If that person then gave away his car out of obedience and love, as unto the Lord, I believe God would bless him in return, perhaps with another vehicle. But God's specific, personal direction for one individual does not become an across-the-board doctrine for the whole Church. There is no spiritual formula to sow a Ford and reap a Mercedes.

[size=13pt]CHAPTER 6:AVOIDING ABUSES AND FALSE PRACTICES

Culled from The Midas Touch: A balanced approach to Biblical Prosperity by Kenneth hagin[/size]

There are a number of teachings and practices in the Church today, particularly among Charismatic groups, that can lead to misunderstandings and hurtful problems. Many times, these errors are the result of people taking a Bible verse, or part of averse, out of context or by carrying an application too far. Sometimes there has been an overzealous attempt to make a New Testament application of some Old Testament phrase or technicality that absolutely does not apply. Taken to the extreme, these teachings can become abuses and false practices.

Let's examine several specific examples that are being taught in various places across this country and in some other nations as well. While there may not be any malicious intent on the part of those who have promoted these teachings, I believe these teachings have the potential to injure and victimize innocent people.

[size=14pt]
Is Financial Prosperity a Sign of Spirituality?[/size]

One teaching supposes that financial prosperity is a sure sign of spirituality. [/b]This teaching suggests that throughout the Bible, God has rewarded faith and holiness with material blessings. [b]The implication is that if a person is not experiencing financial abundance, there must be a spiritual deficit in his life—probably caused by not giving enough.

For example, the teacher might quote Matthew 6:33 and say, "If you're not having 'all these things' added to your life, you must not be seeking first the Kingdom of God." This is the same kind of abuse as telling a person who has not received healing for a sickness or disease that evidently he just doesn't have enough faith.

The truth is that receiving a financial windfall is not a sure and absolute indicator of the blessings of God. It could also be an indicator that the person robbed a bank or "got lucky" gambling in Las Vegas! If wealth alone were a sign of spirituality, then drug traffickers and crime bosses would be spiritual giants. The Bible says that those who suppose that gain is godliness ate "men of corrupt minds," filled with perverse disputing and destitute of the truth (see First Timothy 6:5).

While several scriptures do link material prosperity with the blessings of God, numerous other verses make a sharp distinction and differentiation between material wealth and spiritual blessings.

Proverbs 10:22 says, "The blessing of the Lord, it maketh rich,and he addeth no sorrow with it."

But the Apostle James writes, "Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted: But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away . . . Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?" (James 1:9,10; 2:5).

I wrote this on the WOF thread but I want to modify it here


Just to add, there is a systematic programming in place now, it has to do with the following

firstly, you're taught that the minister cannot err in what he teaches(similar to the papal infallibility)

the above is the reason when a minister is accused of a crime, the congregation cannot believe that the minister can do such because a picture of perfection has been sold to them already


It also explains why people cannot imagine or think that a minister will teach a false doctrine since they have been taught that he is above mistakes

If pastor A teaches a wrong thing & Pastor A has already taught that he can't be wrong & has shared several revelations, invariably he can't be wrong in this matter also

Should you speak up, u'll begin to hear "who are you?, what have u accomplished ministry wise? Do u know more than pastor A? how can you say pastor A is wrong? how dare you?"

Judge not, touch not my prophet
& do my prophet no harm

when damning evidence is produced, they can't act because of the above too, fear has been instilled in them that disaster will come to them should they speak about the matter in other words leave it for God

still in the subject of prosperity, I'll recommend a book by Kenneth Hagin the Midas touch:A balanced approach to biblical prosperity


I'll look for the link for the ecopy & post some excerpts from the book later on

Gombs:
Write to your Pastor if you seek knowledge, or write Pastochrislive. I'd not be an instrument to you application of logic to God’s Word. Else, ask them WindowsX or shedemidemi to put things in the right perspective for you

do you know the amount of people who will benefit from this thread, threads like this, causes you to ask questions & check your convictions

I don't see this as war but you do, as for the things I have done ministry wise, you have no idea & u probably think I'm lying about them

I don't need to "write" to my pastor, I have direct access to him & I already know his answer, it's still the very thing this threads seeks to correct

so long boy, I look forward to the day the scale will fall off your eyes

A little definition will be helpful

1. What does it mean to be materially wealthy?

2. The "physical riches" that Christ gave to us as Christians, who determines the level or amount of these riches, a Christian will have

Is it God or the individual based on his knowledge & understanding of this provision

3. If all Christians acquire this knowledge/understanding of the "physical riches" in Christ(by this I mean if they give equally, pray equally etc) will they all command the same amount of wealth

4.can you please state how one can strike a balance in the quest for material prosperity


Gombs, mbaemeka, Image123, bidam your input will be appreciated

most Christians who have believed this prosperity message, have this view that they must be mega rich, enjoy the best things of life

so answers to the above questions will help put things in the right perspective

Just to add, there is a systematic programming in place now, it has to do with the following

firstly, you're taught that the minister cannot err in what he teaches(similar to the papal infallibility)

the above is the reason when a minister is accused of a crime, the congregation cannot believe that the minister can do such because a picture of perfection has been sold to them already

Judge not, touch not my prophet
& do my prophet no harm

when damning evidence is produced, they can't act because of the above too, fear has been instilled in them that disaster will come to them should they speak about the matter in other words leave it for God

it's just like tithe, majority tithe because they are scared of the devourer

statement like "if you don't tithe, your finances will be tight"

"If you don't tithe, your life will be tight"

"If you don't willingly tithe, you will pay in other ways, your appliances breaking down, hospital bills etc"

There are many more, so some folks don't want this disaster, so they faithfully tithe, take the devourer line out if it & see whether there won't be a massive drop of tithers

LambanoPeace:
The above bold should be archived.

The blue one is a wonderful question.

Where on earth is Gombs? Gombs Gombs Gombs... 4 mentions now.

Pls how old are you? has your brain & manners been archived? The man who can't pay his children fee's, should put them in a government school,(there is none that can't afford that), he should put them in the one he can afford

A man that has limited means should not give birth to battalion, wisdom dictates he gigs birth to the one he can take care of

It's sew your cloth according to your material available & not according to your size

if he can't pay his fees, he should pray & look up to God for the provision

The missionaries came & acted as they did in bible days where they shared among themselves & no one lacked

They setup schools & hospitals etc made it free or affordable, the present wave of churches came & made it exorbitant

These are ways such predicament or situation would have been solved but no, Christ has made all rich so they should all be able to afford it



Even in the OT, those who had farm were told not to harvest all, they should leave some for the poor to glean from! Those poor Jews were they poor because they were living in sin or because they were ignorant of the law or what?





@mbaemeka
for starters, I do believe that the words shared here by all are seeds that have been sown into your heart

it's only a matter of time before they will cause you to think & challenge what you have always believed, when that happens & if you'll be true to yourself, you will see the light

Your "sunesis" is amazing & it's clear you are viewing things in one shade of light

The essence of this discuss is to help you view things in another shade.

just keep an open mind, I fought against the WOF thread kind off, while I still don't agree with some things there but I have come to discover alot of errors I have been practicing.

I love you & I wish you well

mbaemeka:
Nannymcphee,

I would appreciate it if you asked for clarification so as not to misconstrue anything I have to say like some people do. I am affording you such courtesy because you do not seem to be on any side but merely expressing yourself based on what you think is right.

Yes, I said someone can begin as a Taxi Driver but as he discovers more of his rights in christ he would prosper as is expected. When you did not understand me I gave you an example of a man I know in the ministry who has such a success story. I have more than 30 odd stories to that effect. If you are looking for scriptural backing for such I have a deluge but I also mentioned one to you in my edited post to your rebuttal of my Revelations 2&3 explanations. The passage of scripture is in Psalms 1:1-3 and the scripture says WHATSOEVER the Godly man does will PROSPER.

The question I should ask you is what does WHATSOEVER mean and how do you relate it to prosperity? Jacob started with a few Cattle here and there till he had more than he could count same way the man who used to drive one taxi now owns more than 2000 cars to his name. That is financial prosperity and it is scriptural.

You are better of knowing exactly what another man believes and then critiquing it than to have a false understanding and then use it to cast aspersions. The people who act that way are the same one's that claimed Jesus was a cannibal because he told them to eat his flesh. They were not in his fold. Be wise.

I agree with all you have written above, my apologies if I have cast any aspersions on you

BUT, you stated that the taxi driver will not continue being Taxi driver, hence my earlier response

Again, the analogy of the taxi driver who turned out having fleets of taxi is possible but that's not the only way God can prosper him, he can remain the owner of one taxi can & be prosperous in that.

If you sell this to your members what then happens to the who isn't able to transcend to that level? What do you think will happen to his faith?

Every pastor cannot have a large congregation but that's failure in some people's world

A handyman doesn't have to own his own company before he can be considered prosperous, infact some Christians & unbeliever worldwide will transcend from employee to employer but not all will make such transition, such is life

The key things is they will all be at their level as God has designed or allowed.

I guess this picture will buttress my point

Imagine a lady who is married to man who isn't wealthy or can't provide most of their basic needs.

A wise woman will be content with what they have(she will sew her cloth according to the material she has & not according to her size) while praying to God to uplift them

A foolish woman will constantly nag the husband, always wanting to be like the joneses, resulting in her or the husband involving in unhealthy & unwholesome practices in other to be rich


The above is what the prosperity message is doing, making a lot of Christians to be like the foolish woman.

mbaemeka: 14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy unclothedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Jesus is saying to the church at Laodicia that their works are Lukewarm because they are inbetween serving him and attributing all their achievements to themselves i.e like saying I believe God but I can prosper without him. Jesus says it is lukewarm because a christian should be fully in God and depend on him FOR ALL thereby making them Cold, or you can be a sinner and depend fully on the system of the world to succeed and be therefore Hot. But these group of people were mixing it kinda like *coughs* some Christians on here.

when people read the book of Revelation they do it in awe & fear but not you! You have seen prosperity & material wealth out of it

The context lukewarm is used is talking about the Christian service & not money or acquisition

a typical example is the one who just got saved, he goes about preaching & ministering salvation to people but down the line, he slacked, he hasn't backslided neither is he still doing those acts of Christian service, this is what it means to be lukewarm

My God, how & where did you see money out of this!!

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked

This refers to folks who have money, technology etc who put all their trust in their money. In other words, they don't need God

a good example will be the developed nations who believed so much in their technological advancement & have no room for God, spiritual they are dead(hence their wretchedness, but can't see it because of the seemingly wealth or advanced state of living)

This is the correct interpretation to the above verse & not the financial hogwash you put there


It has nothing to do with attributing what God gave you to another source

The church was RICH, INCREASED IN GOODS and HAVING NEED OF NOTHING or so they thought, but in the Lord's eye because they did not acquire it by him they were wretched, miserable, POOR, blind etc. Then he counseled them to buy from him gold tried by fire. What is gold tried by fire in the scriptures? FAITH


1 Peter 1:7King James Version (KJV)
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

That's why he said they should have faith in him (buy gold tried by fire from him) so that they would truly be rich, meaning Jesus doesn't regard Bill Gates as rich nor will he regard any christian that chooses to prosper away from God's word as one So those who try to compare Christian prosperity to worldy prosperity and even claim they are the same, should guess again.

For the bolded, you are wrong, Cornelius was not saved but his Giving, Came up as a memorial before God! Do you know how many people worship & give thanks to God because of Bill gates! Do you know what he has done for the poor?



you need to wash your eyes with the eye salve the bible talked about

When the bible talks about true riches, laying up treasure it's not talking about material wealth!!

Poverty out of choice is clearly taught in the bible. Paul was "poor" by choice, yet the gospel he preached made many rich.

2 Corinthians 6:10King James Version (KJV)
10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

Here again Paul wasn't talking about making them materially wealthy but about spiritual riches !!!


No one says God does not provide materially, neither have I said you can't pray for it, after all Jesus said "give us our daily bread"

what I'm saying is, it isn't the right of the Christian to be wealthy, just because he had accepted chtist but it's God that determines who gets what & how much you get

So you are to be content with what you have while praying to him to increase you. Whether the increase comes or not, BE CONTENT WITH WHAT YOU HAVE

trustman: That is why scripture is usually twisted by them to suit what they want it to say. That is why also they can choose to interpret words the way they like, particularly to 'support' their stance at any point in time.

One moment it can be 'God wants all to be rich financially!' the next moment that can turn to 'Riches can be in different dimensions!'. This minute they can say 'Jesus was very rich financially and even had to have a treasurer' and the next one it can be 'Jesus had to be poor to make us rich'. This way when a person queries one statement they quickly present the second as a proof that the questioner is wrong, pushing the fault always on others rather than themselves. When things are too 'hot' for them to handle they 'run for cover'.

I'm with you on this, Gombs said the full church at Ephesus whom Christ died for(gave divine health) had issues with their water that caused them to be ill

on other thread, he will have you believe that the Christian cannot be sick because he has the life of God, invariably the Christian who is sick is as a result of lack of faith or insufficient knowledge or matter of choice again as applicable to the poverty


when presented with the case of trophimus, he said

The Apostles could not do everything, or they did not dispense miraculous gifts upon all occasions, lest more should be ascribed to them than was right

Other times he believes a Christian can do all things & at other times he lays the blame on the sick saying they didn't have faith but in this case, Paul couldnt

he forgot that Paul wasnt the focus but trophimus(in his own word, a Christian who ought not to be sick based on his inheritance in Christ) so what happened to trophimus faith?

others will interpret the situation to say that, if you overwork your self without appropriate rest, you will break down i.e trophimus got sick because of the work load & inadequate rest same with Epaphroditus

Mbaemeka says the Christian taxi driver upon learning about his inheritance wouldn't be one for too long, when challenged with what's wrong in being a taxi driver, they suddenly turned around to say that there is honor in all labor

Wonders shall never cease

Gombs:
May I ask who's your Zonal pastor?

you don't really expect me to divulge this here, by the way, I'm well known by him

I am forced to call you a liar...a sore one. I once said on this forum that I'm garnished by a fine combination of Kenneth Hagin, Idahosa, T. D. Jakes, Pastor Chris, and E. W. Kenyon.

Pastor Chris has mentioned Hinn, Joel Osteen, Hagin, Yon gi Cho, etc in his messages, how is that a way of discouraging folks from listening to ministeries outside? I listen to Oyedepo, Adeboye, Ibiyomie, Etc

you have spent just 5yrs, I don't have to put up my dossier here for you to know who you are dealing with

You call me a liar yet everyone knows CE don't attend other churches program, every CE member will know you ain't telling the truth. Btw don't let your pastor know about the bolded line o

can you publicly tell your members to act upon the above bolded line?

can you ask your pastor a question based on what the ministers you listed in the bolded said?

If you truly listen to names above then it's your personal thing & you cannot publicly say it out

tell your pastor that you told your member to go listen to pastor adeboye's message, pls come & share with the house his response? Can we try this??

I know you're a leader, what's your leadership position ?

On loveworld plus and sat, there are other ministers shown there too...why then did you decide to lie ma'am? Meanwhile, if I'm well fed here, and I do like the berean christians, and see that these things are true, why go around looking for another opinion?

I hope you saw this line

"you are not encouraged to listen to other ministers outside the ministry excerpt those that are shown on the ministry's satellite station"

Love world plus & sat aren't they satellite stations

I already know the response of Gombs & co to what I have written, I know how the average CE member think

if you are not in CE, there are certain things you won't understand, firstly you are not encouraged to listen to other ministers outside the ministry excerpt those that are shown on the ministry's satellite station

Hence the one angular view of interpreting scriptures

secondly pastor Chris says that the church isn't a democracy so if you are not ok with the ways thing are being run, you are free to leave(so no one is being held against his/her wishes

There are other things that I can't write here cos I don't believe in washing one's dirty laundry outside

Do I have any regret of being a member of CE, no I don't

The only way you don't get burnt in CE, is if you know your left from right & keep things in balance

I know the likes of Gombs, mbaemeka etc will not turn around now but I know seeds are being sowed in their hearts(when will they bear fruits, that I can't tell & I hope it doesn't happen too late)

I only engage them because in so doing peradventure they might go study from The bible what God has to say about these things

Most of what they say here isn't what they studied from the bible but what they have been taught by their pastors & a lot don't bother checking the scriptures even if & when they check its still interpreted from that same view, so at the end of the day, no difference

Why my case is slightly different is because I listened to other ministers & this availed me the opportunity to view things in different perspective

WinsomeX:
@nannymcphee,

I have two questions for you and I want you to believe me that they are not meant to spite you.

1. Are you still a member of Christ Embassy?

2. If you are, can you explain why you are still a member of that church seeing that your views are at variance with theirs?

Thanks in advance.

Yes I'm still a member but I'm biding my time to leave

why am I still there?

the Christian growth is in phases, before joining CE, I had already developed the habit of reading books by Pentecostals & after joining, the practiced continued so this helped me put the CE teaching in balance, but at the same time seeds were being sown as a result of these teachings from other ministers(books/messages)

At the fullness of time, questions began to arise in my heart & I began to put away some practices(all this I will attribute to the seeds I referred to)

but the WOF thread triggered the full realization of the wrong practices, you will notice I asked loads of questions & did more study, I'm still studying on those issues till now

The above events took place within a span of 11yrs

I don't want to leave now becos I haven't figured where to go now, everywhere seems to have an aspect they have missed (I now understand why certain folks have stopped going to church)

So I'll bide my time & decide where to go after careful study of the intended place of worship

mbaemeka:
May God grant you eyes of understanding to see that these verses above give credence to my standing even as they shame you sense-ruled scoffers in the house of God.

In Revelations 3, Jesus says to the church you are wretched and poor so now buy Gold from me (gold that has been tried by fire) so that you would be rich. How can poor people buy Gold except the gold he is referring to is not a physical gold? The understanding is simple for that church was physically and financially wealthy but they had put Jesus out of the door by telling him "any one can prosper, you didn't make us prosper, we don't need you to prosper after all antichrists prosper too" So Jesus in return tells them they are miserable, wretched and poor because their "prosperity" is not from or unto him. So he instructs them to come to him to get the 'true' riches as his has been passed through fire I.e will stand the test of time.

Concerning Revelations 2, he tells the church I know you are poor but in fact you are RICH or did you miss that part? So why is telling poor people that they are rich? The simple answer is that being poor or rich has nothing to do with having money but in being aware about your inheritance in Christ and that inheritance includes material prosperity. It takes faith to lay hold of that inheritance and faith involves saying the same things with God in agreement with him. So the poor church in Smyrna were actually RICH.

Really!!! You think the true riches the bible was talking about is material acquisition

The verses up there has nothing to do with material prosperity

you folks keep saying the the poor Christian is in that state because of choice or lack of knowledge yet you can't show where it was stated in the NT

Paul acknowledged the poor & nowhere did he prescribe that they give so that they will have

The saints of old sold all they had & laid it at the apostles feet & no one lacked among them

No one lacked because those that had gave, who were these that lacked prior to the giving? Weren't they Christians? Do you find the apostles teaching these folks that lack was bad

What about the widows that were neglected that led to the office of deacons? Why did they need the ministration if they had? Do you find the apostles teaching them on how it's their right to have becos Christ died for them

BabaGnoni:
^^^
https://s11.postimg.org/4amobal4j/withered_Hand.jpg
Not Mark12:10-13
but Matthew 12:10-13

shrivelled hand - wrinkled and contracted or cause to wrinkle and contract, especially due to loss of moisture.
withered hand - To lose freshness, become dry and shrivelled, to lose the freshness of youth, as from age

Thanks for the correction, I'll check the Greek word that was used for withered

Mark12:10-13

10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.


Based on this verse, I'll say God can

Just to add, there is another prevalent practice which is akin to name it & claim it but its with a different twist

some Christians will see a car or house or a contract being discussed, the next thing you hear is I claim that car! I claim that house or job

can u imagine, someone driving his own car & another man claiming it? Isn't that robbery and to complicate matters, the "claimee" most times does not have the financial strenth to maintain or service such car

all this practice stems because of the emphasis of "a Christian must be rich"

this had resulted to unwholesome & unhealthy practices amongst brethren.

we so much love to hear "praise The Lord, I received an alert of N....... & I don't know who paid it in"

"someone I didn't know just called me and gave me a contract of N....."


"someone just gave me x amount of money"

These are the kinds of testimonies we like to celebrate, to complicate matters further, you'll now hear, "come sow a seed to connect to this testimony"


While I strongly believe that the above scenerio's are possible in the life of a Christian but they are by acts of providence as God allows & not something that can be reproduced by "connecting to or following a set of defined rules"

emphasizing on such practice is implicitly discouraging the Christian not to work!!!


while I acknowledged that it takes money to preach the gospel, I'm yet to read where it was stated in the bible or even the missionaries that brought Christianity to Nigeria, that they couldn't go far because of lack of funds

God has a way of funding it's work

Gombs:
Fine o, working and at same time eyeing IPPC to ensure them no clash.. it's a bit tougher this year o, my zone was only given 150 slots for partners, 65 slots from my church (Zonal HQ)... delegates them done plenty o... The church is marching on, getting bigger..Make we do build something like Maracana Stadium for conferences and crusades.

I'm a delegate too & guess what, i wont go-work related reason (hope u know what it takes to be a delegate for this year & I didn't just hit the minimum, it's way above that )

The last IPPC I attended was 2007, I have always made delegate since then

so when I write here, I know what I'm writing so don't think I'm someone who isn't a giver !!!

mbaemeka: Regardless of if I am a taxi driver. [b]In fact, being a taxi driver will only be for a while [/b]because as one walks in the law of faith, your life experiences begin to measure up with your confessions.

herein lies the problem with this prosperity message!! What is wrong with being a TAXI DRIVER?

If all taxi driver's in the world is won over to Christ, who then will drive taxi's? Without them how can people move around

I guess you're in Nigeria that's why you said this! Do you know how much those folks make in a day? But in your thinking, they don't drive big cars & own houses etc they are not wealthy!!!

God can prosper a taxi driver in the taxi business

Paul in the bible was a tent maker!! Your Jesus was a Carpenter


this is the problem with the prosperity message teaching that all Christians must/should/ought to be rich

The key word is contentment, there are people who will never have their own house all their lifetime but will be happy & prosperous paying rent (be it face me I face you, be it bungalow or duplex)

so in ur world, a true Christian cannot remain a maid, cleaner, gateman, cook etc because Jesus will elevate them.

let's do a little Mathis

a taxi driver that earns N3000/day(they earn more than this) this amounts to N90,000/month

There are graduates that teach in schools, even engineers that earn btw 10,000-45,000

Who is more prosperous ? I guess you'll say they both need Jesus

the above category of folks can only pray to God to uplift their status/bless the work of their hands & God in his sovereignty will determine how & if he answers them

[quote author=Gombs ]ma'am... a little study wont kill you. Ephesus was a town by the sea port, and at that time, they had water issues due to sanitary wahala. The MOG kept getting ill from the water, Paul simply told him to take wine instead, and stop getting ill. this episode in no way means God could not protect the MOG.[/quote]the above is chapter what? verse what?
Q1. If Jesus had drank that water in Ephesus, would he have been affected

Q2.show me where this same instruction was passed to the church or Christians in Ephesus at that time

so the MOG can get ill? With all the divine health he had from God or his faith wasn't enough

As for the rest comment, I give up

I believe that God can prosper a Christian

I believe God can give wealth to a Christian

The above lies in his sovereignty & he determines the extent, he knows what you can handle but to teach that the death of Jesus has brought us wealth & it's the Christian faith that will determine his level of wealth is wrong

Even the the Jews that were given wealth still had the poor in their midst, even the rich ones, weren't at the same level

its God that determines what you get & it is not your right because Jesus died for you

Gombs:
3 John 1:2: "Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in ALL (not some) things and be in health, just as your soul prospers."

Be in health, yet Timothy had stomach issues!!

yes it's a good prayer but its God that will determine the extent to which you prosper in every facet of your endeavor

Since the death of Jesus with all the prosperity you keeping saying he has given to Christians, one would have thought that by now, the world's richest would be Christians


The world would have setup schools/studies to look into the wealth of Christians but the reverse is the case.

One would have thought by now, since there is much poverty in the world people would have been turning to Jesus for prosperity

My bro, Jesus came to give us eternal life!!! c'est fini

Eph 3:20: "Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than ALL (not somethings) we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us,"

This is generic & not Solely tied to prosperity, we cannot conclude based on this that this is the premise on which the Christian has been great wealth

2 Cor 9:8: "And God is able to bless you abundantly, so that in ALL (not some) things at ALL (not some)times, having ALL (not somethings) that you need, you will abound in every good work."

"All things, at all times and having all that you need"

How many times have u experienced this in your life, even Paul said he was content to be with & without(those days he was without, what happened-he didn't have faith?)

2 Cor 9:6: "Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously."

This also is generic & applies to every facet in life, even amongst unbelievers

so this also does not show how God gave the NT Christian wealth

Acts 20:35
In everything I showed you that by working hard in this manner you must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He Himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.'

Nobody is disputing that it is more blessed to give than to receive but how does this verse show that the NT Christian has been given wealth or prosperity?

oh he did! He taught that giving is the ONLY way of receiving from God...You want proof? You know he'd have to support them, while teaching them on the principles of receiving. let me just quote only one...holla if you need more

Pls I need more, show me where he told christians to sow/connect upon the anointing on his life so that they can have more

Also show me where he told them to give so that they will no longer have to be poor



Romans 12:8
…Or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

Again, this talks about giving but doesn't show how it meant that wealth has been given to the Christian

i love this question. When studying on the churches Paul Pastored, i noticed the Philippian church were crazy givers..they gave massively

Philippians 4:15-17
And you yourselves also know, Philippians, that at the first preaching of the gospel, after I departed from Macedonia, no church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving but you alone; for even in Thessalonica you send a gift [size=20pt]more than once [/size] for my needs. Not that I seek the gift itself, but I seek for the profit which increases to your account.

The bible didn't call them crazy givers , neither was it stated that they gave massively

they were only compared to other churches and besides Paul told them that God will supply them all their needs(not wants, check the meaning of needs)

he didn't tell them that they will become billionaires or become rich but that the thing they need for daily survival will be given to them

yes, i saw the plural...they whole church gave massively... holla if you need another scripture

Show me another scripture pls

na devil give them before? What did you think James meant when he said ALL (not some) good and perfect gifts are from God? sha, refer to the verse in the book of acts i quoted

Not what James meant!! List names

In the OT, I can list abraham, issac, joseph, David, Solomon, job etc men whose records showed that their wealth was gotten from God

kindly list names for me in the NT? the James you quoted was he rich? Does good & perfect gift now translate to wealth & prosperity

giving generally is a blessing... simple. tithing is a form of giving too... seeds.. alms etc

the NT teaches giving & that it is indeed a blessing to give but it is to meet a need be it ministry need or poor or the minister

BUT it doesn't teach giving to get, it doesn't emphasize on giving to get rich

I'm in no way saying I can't pray to God to bless the work of my hands or to prosper me, it is his sovereignty to answer me

but to now teach that it is God will or design that ALL Christians MUST/SHOULD/OUGHT TO be rich is not consistent with the scriptures

show me where the poor in the NT was admonish to give their way into prosperity

Show me where the poor was told that poverty was a bad thing

What you have is the Christian that has being taught to give to the one that doesn't have

It was said that St Francis of Asisi, paid a visit to Rome & the pope took him round & showed him the opulence of the Vatican City.

The pope was quoted to have said "we no longer say silver & gold have we none" to which St Francis replied "neither do you say rise up & walk"

we are back to those era again

Can someone pls explain what this means, it's an excerpt from the marriage act

47. Whoever, having contracted marriage under this Act, or any modification or re-enactment thereof, or under any enactment repealed by this Act, during the continuance of such marriage contracts a marriage in accordance with customary law, shall be liable to imprisonment for five years.

@Gombs

Hello sire!

it's only 2corinthian8:9, that you can point out for the NT support for prosperity

I ask again show me where prosperity was promised for the NT believer apart from 2corithians8:9(which by btw isn't about physical riches or wealth)

Romans15:26

26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem

why did Paul not teach these poor saints to give sacrificially or to connect to the grace/anointing upon his life so that they can experience the "prosperity that God has given to them"

Pls also show me individuals(notice the 's') in the NT testament that gave massively

Also show me individuals who attributed his wealth source to the death of Jesus or to God(the OT is replete with examples)


In the first few paragraph of your response to my post, you talked about how the NT was better than the OT, but you couldn't list several bible verse to show how wealth was given to the Christian

let me ask you, which has more blessing giving to the pastor, giving to the church(ministry needs) & to the poor?

Becos some Christians will say some grounds are more fertile than others!!

Gombs:
Zac 1:17  Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.

[Psa 35:27
 27  Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let the LORD be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant.



Can you also explain the above for me too? Thanks

Maybe you should do more study on the book of Zechariah

Mark 10:17-22

17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.




the verses you quoted has to be studied in the context it was used in & not just lifted to buttress prosperity in the present day

God directly & explicitly promised & gave wealth/riches to the Jews in the OT BUT we find no such direct promises to the present day Christian

The OT is filled with examples of people who were mega rich but how many of such examples can you find in the NT(that has better promises)

Paul talked about the Macedonian church & those at Philippians who gave out of their needs/poverty, he never stated that they will become rich as a result of their giving neither did Paul ever talked down on the saints that were poor(he never stated that they were poor by choice or that they were mocking Christianity)

The gentile world knew nothing about Jesus, the gospel was introduced to them by Paul(Paul knew the in & out of the law & the Jewish custom)

Paul never taught the gentile world about earthly riches or tithe,

Q1. how could he have missed such?

all the admonition about riches & wealth in the NT, we are told to be careful about riches, no where do we find Christians being admonish to go For wealth


Q2. Why didn't Jesus ask the rich man in the above verse, to be his partner in ministry, to be his financier??

Rather he asked him to go sell all wealth & give to the poor( by the way some present day Christians now say that: giving to the poor is just lending to God, that God will pay back but without interest, i.e its more profitable to give to ministers/church than the poor)

Note: the rich man had kept the law since the days of his youth yet Jesus asked him to forgo all

I earlier posted a link of 2 classe's, my contact that checked it, wasn't ok with them

he has seen an E-class 2000 model, pls what are the cons & pros

@ vooks & winsomex

Thanks for the further clarification on the issue of names

See why I keep saying its important we ask questions, I have always viewed it from my perspective, thanks for this

though I have always wondered why the white's always bear funny names & it seems not to have any significant in their lives

That being said, as a Christian I wouldn't be comfortable bearing a name that is associated with the devil

Gombs: Are you now blinded with bianess?



Ma'am, face it... this thread is now irrelevant.

Who determines its relevance, YOU

i simply asked him to show me where he stated it, you have shown me, so what's the big deal

whether or not u agree with the word "proponent" your post all over NL will show that u are among Christians that use the "touch not"


I know your type & I also know that someday the scales will fall off your eyes, I just hope it doesn't fall off too late

Since the thread has become irrelevant to you, kindly un follow

vooks: There is a good reason I don't buy this Cabbalistic/names mysticism; names mattered nothing in the Primitive/Early church.
Romans perhaps contains the most number of First Century believers by name.
Observe Paul sending some shout-outs. The name Hermes sticks out because that is a believer right there with the name of a Greek god, son of Zeus!



[b]Romans 16:3-14 King James Version (KJV)

3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.
5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
6 Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.
7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
8 Greet Amplias my beloved in the Lord.
9 Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ, and Stachys my beloved.
10 Salute Apelles approved in Christ. Salute them which are of Aristobulus' household.
11 Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the household of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.
12 Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord.
13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
14 Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them.[/b]

Do we have a history of Gentile/Pagan-Christian converts changing their names? I mean outside the scriptures. None. Or was paganism and idolatry back then much less potent than Africa's?

Thanks for this