NairaLTQ: Another excuse to avoid the argument. Use your own translation of
Quran 17:1 "Glory be to him(1) who took his(2) servant by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest mosque, whose surroundings we(3) have blessed, to show him(4) of our signs. Indeed, he(5) is the Hearing, the Seeing."
And answer the questions below: this is the Qur'an not the Hadiths. You can even use the Arabic if you want.
I am waiting!
From the Quran Alone can you answer these Questions 1. Who is the one speaking here: Allah or Mohammed or Jibril” Note: Moses was mentioned in Quran 17:2 2. Which servant was taken by night is it Moses or David or Mohammed? 3. If we assume that Allah is him(1) and his(2), who is the we(3)? Note: him(1) and him(2) is singular but we(3) is plural 4. Are the him(4) and the he(5) different or the same? 5. Who is to be shown the signs? 6. Where is this Sacred Mosque? 7. Where is this farthest Mosque whose surroundings has been blessed?
I see your claims are not verifiable. What are you trying to pull the wool over my eyes?
Which translator do you use or is it an Arabian friend who is law unto self?
NairaLTQ: All you needed to do was to pick your assumed mistranslated Arabic words and state why it is an error.
Otherwise, it's just liars supporting other liars! LOL!
Interpretation of an arabic sentence and in particular the Quran fails if you peak words in isolation. You should know better with your claimed understanding of Semitic language.
Literal translation may sometimes deform the implicit meaning of the lexical items, metaphors and metonymic words found in sentences, free translation is a more suitable way of conveying their connotative meaning.
I asked you to screenshot your dictionary or at least name it and you as expected feign reading.
NairaLTQ: The question is not yes or no BUT a selection between options.
Does the the Arabic word "وَمُهَيْمِنًا" (wa-muhayminan) [s]means to oversee, protect, or safeguard[/s]OR to replace?
I believe this is addressed. I had started a reply somewhere here with NO and crossed your translation. Do you fault the translation I gave? Show why!
NairaLTQ: The question should be WHY they lied against the Qur'an!
Then you should ask why no one used the Qur'an of Mohammed after he collected it and reordered the surahs as you have it now?
Who lied against the Quran? Was the Quran compiled as one Mushaf i.e written book by Prophet Muhammad pbuh?
Don't jump into another set of questions. This trait to gish gallop in a bid to try to confuse is not accepted.
NairaLTQ: Another excuse to avoid the argument. Use your own translation of
Quran 17:1 "Glory be to him(1) who took his(2) servant by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest mosque, whose surroundings we(3) have blessed, to show him(4) of our signs. Indeed, he(5) is the Hearing, the Seeing."
And answer the questions below: this is the Qur'an not the Hadiths. You can even use the Arabic if you want.
I am waiting!
From the Quran Alone can you answer these Questions 1. Who is the one speaking here: Allah or Mohammed or Jibril” Note: Moses was mentioned in Quran 17:2 2. Which servant was taken by night is it Moses or David or Mohammed? 3. If we assume that Allah is him(1) and his(2), who is the we(3)? Note: him(1) and him(2) is singular but we(3) is plural 4. Are the him(4) and the he(5) different or the same? 5. Who is to be shown the signs? 6. Where is this Sacred Mosque? 7. Where is this farthest Mosque whose surroundings has been blessed?
TenQ: Sahih al-Bukhari 6829 Narrated Ibn `Abbas: `Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." `Umar added, "Surely Allah's Messenger carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him."
Musnad Ahmad 249 It was narrated that Yahya said: I heard Sa`eed bin al-Musayyab (say) that `Umar (رضي الله عنه ) said: Beware of neglecting the verse of stoning, lest someone say, We do not find two hadd punishments in the Book of Allah, for I saw the Prophet (ﷺ) stone [adulterers] and we stoned [adulterers] too.
And about breastfeeding an adult, here is another evidence
If what you have written is absolutely true and correct please explain what stopped Umar or Abass from writing these verses with the Mushaf of Quran?
Remember that Ibn Abbas, known as one of the most prominent companions of Prophet Muhammad, was renowned for his deep understanding of the Quran and Islamic teachings. He was born around 619 CE and was a cousin of the Prophet.
Umar ibn al-Khattab, the second caliph of Islam, played a significant role in shaping early Islamic governance and jurisprudence. He was known for his strong leadership qualities and commitment to justice. Umar had a unique approach towards knowledge transmission, particularly regarding Hadith (sayings of the Prophet) and its relationship with the Quran.
NairaLTQ: Are you appealing to a modern liar Muhammad Sarwar? Was he a Sahaba? Did he live at the time of Mohammed? What is his chain of authority?
He is not different from you trying to modernise Islam.
Unfortunately, you seem more knowledgeable than both Allah and Mohammed combined as they seem to have a different opinion from you.
Qur'an 2:41 And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.
Qur'an 2:89 And when there cometh unto them a scripture from Allah, confirming that in their possession - though before that they were asking for a signal triumph over those who disbelieved - and when there cometh unto them that which they know (to be the truth) they disbelieve therein. The curse of Allah is on disbelievers.
Qur'an 2:101 And when there cometh unto them a messenger from Allah, confirming that which they possess, a party of those who have received the Scripture fling the Scripture of Allah behind their backs as if they knew not,
Are you reiterating that Allah and his prophet made some serious mistakes in these verses?
If the Bible is corrupted, why did Allah ask us to judge by it? Ae you saying that Allah couldn't protect his words in the Bible?
Apply what you wrote to yourself first please. The Quran doesn't contain breastfeeding adults or stoning the adulterer. Don't you get it from the scholars who you claim to get the hadith narrations you present from?
NairaLTQ: This is simple: Does the the Arabic word "وَمُهَيْمِنًا" (wa-muhayminan) means to oversee, protect, or safeguardOR to replace?
Secondly, if it is to replace, how come the Qur'an doesn't explain ANYTHING (contrary to it being an explanation of everything in detail).
Example: Let's see how unambiguous Allah is in the Quran from another verse!
Quran 17:1 "Glory be to him(1) who took his(2) servant by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest mosque, whose surroundings we(3) have blessed, to show him(4) of our signs. Indeed, he(5) is the Hearing, the Seeing."
From the Quran Alone can you answer these Questions 1. Who is the one speaking here: Allah or Mohammed or Jibril” Note: Moses was mentioned in Quran 17:2 2. Which servant was taken by night is it Moses or David or Mohammed? 3. If we assume that Allah is him(1) and his(2), who is the we(3)? Note: him(1) and him(2) is singular but we(3) is plural 4. Are the him(4) and the he(5) different or the same? 5. Who is to be shown the signs? 6. Where is this Sacred Mosque? 7. Where is this farthest Mosque whose surroundings has been blessed?
Note: The Temple was completely destroyed by the Romans 550 years before Mohammed and it was a waste dump. Omar Ibn al-Khattab, found the waste dump in 638 AD rebuilt the Temple in Jerusalem (completed fully in 705 AD)
As you can see, you don't have an answer outside the Bible and your Hadiths
NO
Does the the Arabic word "وَمُهَيْمِنًا" (wa-muhayminan) [s]means to oversee, protect, or safeguard[/s]OR to replace?
NairaLTQ: Are you appealing to a modern liar Muhammad Sarwar? Was he a Sahaba? Did he live at the time of Mohammed? What is his chain of authority?
He is not different from you trying to modernise Islam.
Unfortunately, you seem more knowledgeable than both Allah and Mohammed combined as they seem to have a different opinion from you.
Qur'an 2:41 And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.
Qur'an 2:89 And when there cometh unto them a scripture from Allah, confirming that in their possession - though before that they were asking for a signal triumph over those who disbelieved - and when there cometh unto them that which they know (to be the truth) they disbelieve therein. The curse of Allah is on disbelievers.
Qur'an 2:101 And when there cometh unto them a messenger from Allah, confirming that which they possess, a party of those who have received the Scripture fling the Scripture of Allah behind their backs as if they knew not,
Are you reiterating that Allah and his prophet made some serious mistakes in these verses?
If the Bible is corrupted, why did Allah ask us to judge by it? Ae you saying that Allah couldn't protect his words in the Bible?
Perhaps the translation you prefer is done by a companion of the prophet (sahaba) who most likely had no contact with the English or need to speak that language.
"And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. [b]So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations [/b]away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ."
You obviously have a selective style of reading and interpretation.
Do you think the phrase Judge by what Allah has revealed refers to the Bible? Remember you have said before that the books of the Bible are mainly writings of men you claim were inspired.
In any case is there any unaltered copy of the scroll of Abraham, Isaiah, Torah or Psalms you can refer to?
You don't understand the language saying the book revealed that is the Quran is a criterion over what preceded It?
NairaLTQ: This is simple: Does the the Arabic word "وَمُهَيْمِنًا" (wa-muhayminan) means to oversee, protect, or safeguardOR to replace?
Secondly, if it is to replace, how come the Qur'an doesn't explain ANYTHING (contrary to it being an explanation of everything in detail).
Example: Let's see how unambiguous Allah is in the Quran from another verse!
Quran 17:1 "Glory be to him(1) who took his(2) servant by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest mosque, whose surroundings we(3) have blessed, to show him(4) of our signs. Indeed, he(5) is the Hearing, the Seeing."
From the Quran Alone can you answer these Questions 1. Who is the one speaking here: Allah or Mohammed or Jibril” Note: Moses was mentioned in Quran 17:2 2. Which servant was taken by night is it Moses or David or Mohammed? 3. If we assume that Allah is him(1) and his(2), who is the we(3)? Note: him(1) and him(2) is singular but we(3) is plural 4. Are the him(4) and the he(5) different or the same? 5. Who is to be shown the signs? 6. Where is this Sacred Mosque? 7. Where is this farthest Mosque whose surroundings has been blessed?
Note: The Temple was completely destroyed by the Romans 550 years before Mohammed and it was a waste dump. Omar Ibn al-Khattab, found the waste dump in 638 AD rebuilt the Temple in Jerusalem (completed fully in 705 AD)
As you can see, you don't have an answer outside the Bible and your Hadiths
Provide a screenshot of your translator and the translation you present.
TenQ: Because I explained the word translated as criterion and it doesn't mean replace
But the word confirm is even much stronger!
Is it untrue that the Arabic word "وَمُهَيْمِنًا" (wa-muhayminan) is derived from the root word "هَيْمَنَ" (haymana), which generally means to oversee, protect, or safeguard AND not to replace
TenQ: Because I explained the word translated as criterion and it doesn't mean replace
But the word confirm is even much stronger!
Is it untrue that the Arabic word "وَمُهَيْمِنًا" (wa-muhayminan) is derived from the root word "هَيْمَنَ" (haymana), which generally means to oversee, protect, or safeguard AND not to replace
You fail to understand context. Confirm in this case is strictly restricted to what is true and correct but not everything.
A criterion refers to a specific standard used for evaluation.
See two other translations of the meaning of the verse below
-----Muhammad Sarwar-----
We have revealed the Book to you (Muhammad) in all Truth. It confirms the (original) Bible and has the authority to preserve or abrogate what the Bible contains. Judge among them by what God has revealed to you and do not follow their desires instead of the Truth which has come to you. We have given a law and a way of life to each of you. Had God wanted, He could have made you into one nation, but He wanted to see who are the more pious ones among you. Compete with each other in righteousness. All of you will return to God who will tell you the truth in the matter of your differences.
-----Muhammad Shakir-----
And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;
TenQ: Except you are a "Qur'an Only Muslim", you have no authority to explain the Qur'an other than what your hadits and Tafsirs have said. I gave you more than enough EVIDENCES from your sources. To this , you have no say in the matter as you want to modernise your religion.
Sorry.
How can Muslims obey Mohammed outside the Hadiths?
Qur'an 4:80 "He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian."
Qur'an 5:92 "And obey Allah and obey the Messenger and beware. And if you turn away - then know that upon Our Messenger is only [the responsibility for] clear notification."
Sorry, the truth is most times bitter.
What you fail to understand or deliberately refuse to accept is if a hadith contradicts a clear verse of the Quran, scholars generally regard the hadith as weak or it may be rejected.
TenQ: Why don't you explain exactly what happened with Abraham according to the Torah!
Did you not answer it by saying:
The passage in Genesis you quote is not butT a physical manifestation of representatives of God before Abraham.
It was clear that God came with two angel
Gen 18:16-17: "And the men rose up from there, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way. And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;"
Gen 18:22: "And the men turned their faces from there, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD."
Too bad for you sir
I see you screenshot Quran 5:48 (And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their desires over the truth that has come to you.)
You choose to ignore as a criterion over it why?
The phrase “as a criterion over it” signifies that the Quran serves as a standard by which previous scriptures are judged. This implies that any inconsistencies or alterations found in earlier texts can be evaluated against the teachings of the Quran.
TenQ: Allah claims to travel the Qur'an in a clear and simple Arabic, unfortunately, you Muslims cannot understand the speech of your Allah. It has to be reinterpreted to say what it doesn't plainly say.
Muslims should stop complaining. Arabic is NOT the only Semitic language. Have you heard any Jew or Christian complaining about their scriptures as not translatable or not interpretable
Jews and Christians don't tell lies about our God to make Him what he's not.
If God chose to reveal himself in a manner suitable for you, is it your problem?
Doesn't Allah too have at least TWO physical shapes?
Can any Muslim understand the Qur'an without the Hadiths and Tafsirs? No! From the Qur'an alone, you won't even know who Mohammed your prophet is. The Qur'an didn't come down out of the blues.
It is impossible for you to cherry pick only what you like from your books.
Sorry!
There is no verse as the verse on Rajm. What exists is the verse of Rajam!
Sunan Ibn Majah 1944 It was narrated that 'Aishah said: “The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.” 1: These verses were abrogated in recitation but not ruling. Other ahadith establish the number for fosterage to be 5
Sahih al-Bukhari 6829 Narrated Ibn `Abbas: `Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." `Umar added, "Surely Allah's Messenger carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him."
Musnad Ahmad 249 It was narrated that Yahya said: I heard Sa`eed bin al-Musayyab (say) that `Umar (رضي الله عنه ) said: Beware of neglecting the verse of stoning, lest someone say, We do not find two hadd punishments in the Book of Allah, for I saw the Prophet (ﷺ) stone [adulterers] and we stoned [adulterers] too.
And about breastfeeding an adult, here is another evidence
Sunan Ibn Majah 1942 It was narrated that 'Aishah said: “Once of the things that Allah revealed in the the Qur'an and then abrogated was that nothing makes marriage prohibited except ten breastfeedings or five well-known (breastfeedings).”
Too bad, I get still get you more
Do you Muslims (plural) still do breastfeeding for adult men?
If it is solely about Salim, can you explain each of the hadiths below
Sunan Ibn Majah 1942 It was narrated that 'Aishah said: “Once of the things that Allah revealed in the the Qur'an and then abrogated was that nothing makes marriage prohibited except ten breastfeedings or five well-known (breastfeedings).”
Sunan Ibn Majah 1938 It was narrated from Ibn 'Abbas: that the Messenger of was offered the daughter of Hamzah bin 'Abdul-Muttalib in marriage, and he said: "She is the daughter of my brother through breastfeeding, and breastfeeding makes unlawful (for marriage) the same things that blood ties make unlawful.”
Musnad Ahmad 1099 It was narrated from `Ali : I said: O Messenger of Allah, why do you marry from Quraish and not from us? He said: “Do you have anyone?` I said: The daughter of Hamzah. He said: `She is the daughter of my brother through breastfeeding.“
Musnad Ahmad 620 It was narrated that ‘Ali said: O Messenger of Allah (ﷺ), why do you choose to get married from among Quraysh and you ignore us? He said: `Have you anybody to suggest?` I said: Yes, the daughter of Hamzah. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: `She is not permissible for me (to marry), for she is the daughter of my brother through breastfeeding.`
There is no escape for you sir!
Unfortunately you know so much but are ignorant. Language is a complex and dynamic system that allows for the expression of thoughts, emotions, and ideas. One of its most fascinating aspects is the ability of words to convey meanings that differ from their standard definitions. This phenomenon can occur through various linguistic mechanisms, including metaphor, irony, idioms, and Language is a complex and dynamic system that allows for the expression of thoughts, emotions, and ideas. One of its most fascinating aspects is the ability of words to convey meanings that differ from their standard definitions. This phenomenon can occur through various linguistic mechanisms, including metaphor, irony, idioms, and context. Does the idiom kick the bucket agree with the literal meaning of the phrase?
You get your conviction of Allah having two physical shapes from where? Allah or the statements of other fallible mortals?
The only punishment in the Quran for fornication and adultery is public flogging which is humiliating.
You keep going to hadith to prove the previous existence of a Quran verse? Is there a breach in transmission between whay your eyes read and your brain?
It took about 200 years after the death of Prophet Muhammad for hadith to be organised do you imply Muslims in this time didn't understand the Quran? Do you not understand most translations of the meaning of the Quran since you don't understand arabic?
The hadith you quote on forbidden marriages is based on Quran 4:23.
Is Prohibited to you [for marriage] are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters, your [milk] mothers who nursed you, your sisters through nursing, your wives' mothers, and your step-daughters under your guardianship [born] of your wives unto whom you have gone in. But if you have not gone in unto them, there is no sin upon you. And [also prohibited are] the wives of your sons who are from your [own] loins, and that you take [in marriage] two sisters simultaneously, except for what has already occurred. Indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful not clear without the hadith.
Note that the verse and hadith emphasises nurse mothers breastfeeding infants not adults.
TenQ: Who told you this as the God of Abraham sometimes appear to him as a Man AND Abraham never confuses him as man.
All you can do is to speculate and thus create a God according to your own imagination. Reality is different from Actuality sir.
Gen 18:1-3: "And the LORD appeared to him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, see, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said, My LORD, if now I have found favor in your sight, pass not away, I pray you, from your servant:"
Here is from the book both your prophet and Allah attests to.
Did Abraham make any mistakes in recognising his God even though he appeared as a man?
Muslims starting from Mohammed do not know the God of Abraham: instead , you created Allah according to the whims of your imagination
Continue your delusion. It is not all that is in the Bible that is arrested to.
In Islam, it is believed that the Torah (Tawrat) and the Gospel (Injil) were original revelations from Allah. However, Muslims hold that these texts have been altered or corrupted over time, and thus not all content within the current versions of the Bible is considered true or consistent with Islamic teachings.
While there may be elements of truth in previous scriptures, Muslims believe that changes and alterations may have occurred in these texts over time.
Allah does not attest that all text contained in the Bible is true Allah does not attest that all text contained in the Bible is true In Islamic belief, the Quran affirms the original messages and teachings of previous prophets and scriptures, including the Bible, but it also emphasizes that the Quran is the final and complete revelation from Allah. While there may be elements of truth in previous scriptures, Muslims believe that changes and alterations may have occurred in these texts over time.
The Quran serves as the ultimate criterion and guidance, superseding all previous scriptures. Allah has revealed the Quran as a comprehensive and unaltered guidance for humanity, correcting any discrepancies or alterations that may have occurred in earlier scriptures.
In Surah Al-Maidah, verse 48, Allah mentions: And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method.
Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ."
This verse emphasizes that the Quran is revealed as a criterion over previous scriptures, confirming the truth within them and serving as a guidance for humanity. Muslims believe in the authenticity and preservation of the Quran as the final and unaltered revelation from Allah, guiding mankind to the straight path.
It doesn't say all that is in the available copies of the previous scripture is true but confirming what is true in them.
The passage in Genesis you quote is not but T a physical manifestation of representatives of God before Abraham.
The Quran states in Surah 11:69-70:
“And certainly did Our messengers come to Abraham with good tidings; they said, "Peace." He said, "Peace," and did not delay in bringing [them] a roasted calf. But when he saw their hands not reaching for it, he distrusted them and felt from them apprehension. They said, "Fear not. We have been sent to the people of Lot."
Though the angels appeared in the form of man being unlike man they did not eat
Genesis 18:1-3 does not definitively state whether all three visitors are manifestations of God or if one is distinct from two angels.
The term “three men” in Hebrew can imply that these figures are not merely ordinary humans but rather divine messengers or manifestations. The sudden appearance of these figures could indicate their supernatural nature. While some interpretations suggest that one of these figures is indeed God (a theophany), others argue that they represent angels sent by God.
I was buttressing my point on the angel seen in the fire not being God in my response to your previous post on the Quran 27:8 based on what your Bible presented.
Seeking to understand the relevance of the author first mentioning the Angel then later stating the Lord spoke.
Ohyoudidnt: Is your scripture not clear that what was seen as a man is an angel?
I however question if it is God or the angel you worship that you reduce your God to manifest in the form of the angel he created and sent on a message!
Does God need to enter into what he created or appear as his creation to express his power? Is this not the limited thinking of earthly man?
ATTN. TENQ If God were to manifest directly in the same manner as angels, it could lead to misunderstandings about His nature and authority. In Christian theology, God is transcendent and sovereign; His ways are higher than ours (Isaiah 55:8-9). Direct manifestations might blur the lines between divine sovereignty and human perception, potentially leading people to misinterpret God’s intentions or attributes.
Human beings have limitations in understanding and perceiving the divine fully. If God were to manifest in a way similar to angels, it could overwhelm human comprehension or lead individuals to worship the manifestation itself rather than recognizing it as a reflection of God’s glory. This concern aligns with biblical warnings against idolatry (Exodus 20:3-5), where anything that takes precedence over God becomes an idol.
Christianity emphasizes faith as a relationship built on trust rather than sight (2 Corinthians 5:7). If God manifested regularly like angels, it might undermine the necessity for faith and reliance on Him without physical evidence. The essence of faith involves believing in what we cannot see (Hebrews 11:1), which fosters spiritual growth and dependence on God’s wisdom rather than our own understanding.
While angelic manifestations serve specific purposes within God’s plan for humanity, a direct manifestation of God akin to how angels appear could complicate human understanding of His nature, diminish the role of faith, and risk idolatry or misunderstanding among believers.
TenQ: Then Muslims should stop complaining. Arabic is NOT the only Semitic language. Have you heard any Jew or Christian complaining about their scriptures as not translatable or not interpretable.
This obviously is a case of you saying so much you forget yourself. Do you deny categorically stating that who in the translated Quran refers to a person?
I picked out the Arabic word translated to who and point out that interpretation of what is meant not a simple case yet you continue your diarrhea?
TenQ: In other words, the fact that Jibril was in the form of a perfect man (subject to every physical laws) does not make him a man.
How much more God who can appear in any form without ceasing to be God. Of course, I am aware that this is impossible for Allah to do.
Who did Mary see? Did she see an Angel or a man?
You are still confused because Allah cannot appear in other forms without ceasing to be Allah. Don't impose the limitations of Allah to Yahweh, the Creator of the Universe.
Is your scripture not clear that what was seen as a man is an angel?
I however question if it is God or the angel you worship that you reduce your God to manifest in the form of the angel he created and sent on a message!
Does God need to enter into what he created or appear as his creation to express his power? Is this not the limited thinking of earthly man?
TenQ: It is your books that said that the Qur'an was eaten.
Where is the verse on Rajam? Wasn't it part of what was eaten?
Except you are agreeing that Muslims are chronic liars who would even lie against Mohammed, Allah and the Qur'an!
Meaning that it is a historical fact that breastfeeding adults took place at the time of Mohammed. This is a supporting evidence even if you don't like it.
How is it the book of Muslims? Is there any clear instruction to uphold and follow the hadith written by numerous men not the direct revelation to man; the Quran?
Is it a lie that mischief makers try to corrupt others by placing false importance on fabrication. I have summarised scholarly review about the hadith of a goat eating written Quran verses yet of course you remain a taghut
There was no such verse as Rajm.
TenQ: Meaning that it is a historical fact that breastfeeding adults took place at the time of Mohammed. This is a supporting evidence even if you don't like it.
The evidence is viewed with scepticism and regarded as false.
TenQ: Let me even ask you a question: 1. Why did Mohammed instruct the breastfeeding of Salim? 2. Was this an instruction from Allah? 3. Why are you Muslims no longer doing it?
In an immediate sense you lie. Let me ask you a question and you present 3? Is a singular or plural?
In any case there's no sense answering the error or repeated questions that have been asked and are obviously not sincerely coming from a desire to know.
You obviously have the answers to your questions but like to poke mischief. If you read through my responses you will see what I wrote in regards to Salim.
TenQ: Whatever cannot be translated cannot be interpreted
Says who?
Will you accept such forms of flawed interpretation by Christians for the bible?
It is Mohammed that created a God according to his own imagination. Is Allah a Spirit? No! Is Allah a Father? No! Is Allah Omnipresent? No!
In trying to create God, Mohammed arrived at a limited edition of the Creator.
So, are you claiming that Jibril did NOT appear to Mary as a perfect man?
It is good you are seeing how faulty your argument is with this illustration.
How can I ask you to find me the physical evidence of the food I ate five days ago just as How can you ask me to find the evidence of deleted verses from the book from which it was deleted?
What else after showing you evidence that you destroyed an evidence?
My questions was specific: which of the Hadiths I presented was Maudu?
Have a beautiful night rest
It is not true that whatever cannot be translated from one language to another cannot be interpreted. Untranslatable texts can still hold significant interpretive value through contextual explanation and analysis.
That Jibril or Angel Gabriel appeared to Mary in the form of man does not make him of mankind. Perhaps you should look for stories that prove that other than appearing like a man the angel performed actions of man such as breathing, eating and sleeping.
I have asked for a reasonable explanation for why the Bible says Moses sees an angel in the fire yet it's the lord/God that speaks? Why no clarity that the angel spoke on behalf of God. Was the writer merely showing writing abilities in mentioning the angel?
Your lousy evidence of haven eaten could be from timeline pictures of you eating.
Evidence that something was destroyed without proof that it actually existed? Please do better.
It is narrated in the Tabaqat of Ibn Sa’d and elsewhere that Sahla would pour her breast-milk into a utensil each day for five continuous days and Salim would drink from it. He did not directly drink from the breast of Sahla, as it is not permitted to expose one’s awra in front of a non-Mahram adult let alone have him suckled. Thus, the objection raised by some non-Muslims that this was an immoral act has no significance, for Sahla did not directly suckle Salim, as he had reached puberty.
Also scholars study points out that the narrative of a domesticated sheep eating the folios of the Qurʼan, which allegedly included the controversial ‘Breastfeeding Verse’, cannot be confidently traced back to ʿĀʾisha and only appears in one variant, raising doubts about its authenticity.
TenQ: There is a difference between translation of a script and interpretation of a script.
Any language that cannot be interpreted is a useless language
The question remains: The Question was simple: WHO was in the Fire? WHO was around the Fire?
So , you are saying that Allah lied that someone was in the Fire whereas no one was in the fire! Secondly, what is the name of the one around the Fire?
How is this person able to be around the Fire?
It is understandable for a person worshipping a deity who is incapable of entering His creation to lack cognitive sense of the spiritual Exo 3:2-4: "And the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the middle of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the middle of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I."
Luk 1:30-32: "And the angel said to her, Fear not, Mary: for you have found favor with God. And, behold, you shall conceive in your womb, and bring forth a son, and shall call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give to him the throne of his father David:"
Show me the word appear in your Qur'an? What is a well proportioned man: is he a ghost? Qur'an 19:17 And she took, in seclusion from them, a screen. Then We sent to her Our Angel [i.e., Gabriel], and he represented himself to her as a well-proportioned man.
Muslims will deny their Allah as long as it keeps them in the argument
Is the well proportioned man real or fake?
It seems it doesn't dawn on you that Allah is LIMITED. Is he not above the waters which is above the 7th heaven!? It means that Allah occupies space. He is localized.
My God can simultaneously both be everywhere and somewhere in physical and spiritual realm but Allah cannot. This is the difference!
Are the three hadiths I presented Maudi? You know that Muslim scholars can represent satan in a lying competition.
If they are not fabricated, own up to the truth. Many verses have been deleted from the Qur'an
Prove to me that five days ago, I ate Pounded yam by showing me the real pounded yam I ate, otherwise, it means that I ate an egg!
Can you see the wisdom of your logic!?
So, young men should be sucking the breasts of women!?
Tell me then why initially , breastfeeding an adult man ten times was abrogated to five times?
For once, a Muslim speaks the truth. Scribal Errors!
Scribal errors can be forgiven but insisting on a lie that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved is a blatant lie that has to be put to shame!
My argument is not about whether the differences within the Qur'an caused a huge variation from the core message BUT My argument is against the Standard Islamic Narrative that says that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved up to it's diacritical marks.
At least you have admitted that the standard Islamic Narrative is pure FALSEHOOD!
Do you not see how you cannot stick with one argument? You refer to Islam being solely for Arabians if the Arabic of the Quran cannot be translated now you shift your argument to interpretation?
The term “مَن” translated to who in context of Quran 29:8 does not literally refer to a person or entity but signifies a broader collective presence associated with divine phenomena.
You keep repeating your question based on literal translation or interpretation of the meaning because you are not getting an answer you like?
Well your description of deity perfectly agrees with a philosopher's statement that it is man who created God in his desired image which is extremely wrong. Do you determine or the God who created you? Perhaps you can as well undo the effect of climatic variations or make gravity work towards the sky not the earth's core.
You can see that different interpretations of the Quran verse you mention have indicated appearance and likeness. When dog looks like a fox or wolf does it make it a wolf?
Muhammad Pickthall-----
And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.
-----Saheeh International-----
And she took, in seclusion from them, a screen. Then We sent to her Our Angel, and he represented himself to her as a well-proportioned man.
-----Muhammad Shakir-----
So she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man.
Your argument of eating pounded yam is so warped because if such proof was required an atomic labelled yam and or egg will have been fed to you so a trace of this element can be made to see how much of it was retained to be utilised in building your post meal make up
It seems you fail to see the singular case of the one who had lived since he was a child to early manhood and just like the promoters of falsehood want to generalise a singular situation?
Does there exist any Quran verse that talks about breastfeeding an adult or the verse reverse to suckling a baby? Show the verse on suckling an adult then we can discuss more.
What is the essence of the Quran if not the message it passes? Is the message of the Quran not preserved? Is this what you will rather move your argument to?
I have pointed to the truth that not all that is alleged to be the tradition or saying of the prophet Muhammad is true. There are fabricated hadith for various reasons as well as totally true hadith. Perhaps you should present a fabricated Quran that is acceptable and recognised.
I see my brother has had a baseless discussion with one of your brethren that fails to accept the translation of Messiah from Hebrew to English as annointed.
In any case we have our fundamental core differences and are not mandated to be the same.
TenQ: It is either Islam is strictly for Arabs or it is the worst language for any scripture.
Have you ever seen Christians and Jews complaining about how impossible to translate Hebrew into any other language?
Please tell me that 1. No one was in the fire 2. No one was around the Fire
This would suffice!
Did Angel Gabriel speak as a messanger to Mary or did he peak as God?
When Jibril became a perfect man in the Qur'an, did he momentarily stop being an Angel?
This is what you arrive at when you refused to supply a direct answer to a direct question.
I am still waiting for your answers to my questions
God is Almighty because there is NOTHING impossible for Him to do as long as it doesn't compromise His integrity.
The question to you was simple: Can Allah enter his creation without ceasing to be Allah?
This is a simple question sir.
But your scholars said that both the verses of Rajam and the verse of breastfeeding an adult 10 times was revealed.
Sunan Ibn Majah 1944 Sahih al-Bukhari 6830
Were your scholars telling lies?
The Hadiths are your books and they give evidence to verses you no longer recite.
It is actually you Muslims that is copying the Jews and not the other way round.
Sahih al-Bukhari 5917 Narrated Ibn `Abbas: The Prophet (ﷺ) used to copy the people of the Scriptures in matters in which there was no order from Allah. The people of the Scripture used to let their hair hang down while the pagans used to part their hair. So the Prophet let his hair hang down first, but later on he parted it.
Have you seen evidences of differences with 1. The Sana'a Qur'an and your modern Qur'an? 2. Have you seen enough evidences between the Warsh Qur'an and the Hafs Qur'an?
Have I shown you illogicalities and errors from your Qur'an?
Only one discrepancy is enough to invalidate the Qur'an sir: and this has been done
Your argument is pretty flawed. Do you mean every single statement in your language can be literally and exactly translated to another language or English? Does the English language itself not borrow from other languages?
I didn't say it's impossible but point at the truth that some fundamentals get lost in translation.
Yes no one was in the fire. At least we don't confuse an angel being in the fire like the bible.
Around the fire was the blessed creation of Allah.
Why is the text in the angel speaking as a messenger to Mary not the case when the angel was seen in the fire? Did the authors ommit?
Did Jibril become a man or appear to be a man? You know things aren't always what they seem.
Allah is beyond any need to enter in his creation. Did the creation exist without or before Allah created it?
Fundamental difference in your conception of God is the issue here. You see your deity needing to become something or enter something to function as God which is different from Islam.
Perhaps you need to review the level of agreement of the scholars you refer to about the hadith.
The most important hadith might be one where the Jews of Medina bring a case of married adultery before the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. The Prophet wants to deal with the adulterers according to Jewish law. The Jews try to ward off the punishment by saying there is nothing in the Torah about stoning adulterers or attempting to hide this.
The proof I request is a Quran script containing the verses you claim are no more in the Quran not hadith. Or is hadith equal to the revealed Quran?
The background of the young man suckled needs to be acknowledged and the peculiar exception given. In truth it is mischief makers that try to make it a generality and not more.
The Sanaa scripts are scribal errors and I will encourage you to look at original pictures of the scripts and compare to what is generated to be what it reads.
There are cases of verse positions but you too acknowledge from your hadith sources that different types of recitals were revealed and existed in the prophets time and were approved.
Sincerely by how much do the word variations affect the core meaning of the Quran verses?
TenQ: You did not answer a single one of my questions LOL! You Muslims do not believe in your Allah at all: even when the plain message of Allah is clear and simple, you have to go with the consensus of your scholars or Mohammed.
1. Is it UNTRUE that the word "WHO" as used in Qur'an 27:8-10 refers to a PERSONALITY? 2. If it is, Are you saying that "No one was in the Fire" and "no One was around the Fire"? 3. Who spoke the phrase "Blessed is He who is in the fire and whatever is around it. And glory be to Allah, Lord of the worlds." Is it Allah or Moses? 4. Is your conclusion that Allah is powerless to be either within the Fire and around it without him seizing to be Allah?
Let us for the sake of argument agree with you that one verse of the Qur'an can abrogate an earlier verse.
I think the issue I am complaining about is when an abrogated verse is deleted and removed from the Qur'an.
The implication is really bad for you Muslims and it doesn't have any reasonable explanations. Let me break it down for you.
1. According to you Muslims,The Quran of Mohammed is the exact copy of the Qur'an of Allah in paradise. 2. According to you Muslims,The Quran of Allah in paradise is uncreated (it is an attribute of Allah) 3. There are verses abrogated both from recitation and ruling (deleted from the Qur'an)
If these two above are true, 1. Are these kind of abrogated verses in the Qur'an of Allah but deleted from the Qur'an of Mohammed? Eg. The verses on stoning and breastfeeding an adult man ten times 2. Did Jibril dictate as part of the Qur'an verses which were not in the Qur'an of Allah to Mohammed? 3. Don't you see that the doctrine of Abrogation invalidate the claim of eternal nature of the Qur'an?
I am going with you doctrine of Abrogation BUT it has a big flaw
If Jibril dictated the Qur'an to Mohammed from the Qur'an of Allah in paradise, then, even if a verse is abrogated, it wouldn't be deleted but replaced with a newer verse
Example: Where is the verse of Rajam (stoning) in the modern Qur'an? Where is the verse of breastfeeding an adult man ten times, which was abrogated to five times in your modern Qur'an?
Check these two hadiths Sahih Muslim 2655: “The Qur'an was with Allah before the creation of the heavens and the earth.”
Sahih al-Bukhari 6988: “The Qur'an is the speech of Allah, which is not created.”
If the Qur'an was with Allah before Mohammed, except if the Qur'an of Mohammed is different from that of Allah, a single revealed verse cannot be deleted.
Are you pretending that I Never showed you the evidences before? Okay, here are three verses DELETED from the Qur'an and none of them are Prayers.
The argument of deleting prayers is also very weak because AL-FATHIA is a prayer but it wasn't deleted.
Sahih al-Bukhari 6830 .... Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male & female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him.....
Sahih al-Bukhari 6830 ....And then we used to recite among the Verses in Allah's Book: 'O people! Do not claim to be the offspring of other than your fathers, as it is disbelief (unthankfulness) on your part that you claim to be the offspring of other than your real father.' Then Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, 'Do not praise me excessively as Jesus, son of Marry was praised, but call me Allah's Slave and His Apostles.'.....
Sunan Ibn Majah 1944 It was narrated that 'Aishah said: The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed1, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.” 1: These verses were abrogated in recitation but not ruling. Other ahadith establish the number for fosterage to be 5.
Can you show me from your Qur'an these deleted verses?
I have no problem with this as it doesn't change the position of my argument.
If the Qur'an is part of the Lauhul Mahfuz (the Preserved Tablet), it existed before it was revealed.
It means that nothing can be deleted from it as it contains the exact knowledge of Allah of what will happen in future.
If anything is deleted from the Qur'an of Mohammed, it is a proof that it isn't identical to the Qur'an of Allah.
The Question was simple: WHO was in the Fire? WHO was around the Fire?
The word WHO describes a person isn't it?
There's no literal translation to Allah's holy words, but we translate the meaning. We try our best to translate. Translation often betrays the original text.
The use of who is not literal but an association in the sense with the fire. Do you think Allah was in the fire or is this your explanation for the mixed narrative in your scripture that the Angel was seen in the fire yet God spoke?
Why was this not the case when angel Gabriel appeared to Mary or is it that God doesn't speak directly with women in Christianity or Judaism?
If you can not comprehend my answer or expect a particular type of answer indeed you betray yourself as not actually asking.
How do you determine the power of your dirty by his ability to be in certain forms or in certain things? Does God need to be in such position to manifest his power?
I had told you before that it is not hadith that takes precedence over the Quran. Breastfeeding is for children not grown ups. An exception was made in one case before the person had grown into a full fledged man.
The justification for rajm primarily comes from various hadiths. This story of written verses being eatien is skeptical. Was the memory of the verse also eaten from all those who had memorized it took?
Could this claim about this verse not stem from influence of the Jewish halacha based on Deuteronomy 22:22-24 indicating that early Islamic scholars may have adopted similar punitive measures without direct Qur’anic support?
You alleged the verse and should provide proof of this from any of the ancient or other versions of the Quran you allege, onus probandi
TenQ: LOL! You Muslims do not believe in your Allah at all: even when the plain message of Allah is clear and simple, you have to go with the consensus of your scholars or Mohammed.
1. Is it UNTRUE that the word "WHO" as used in Qur'an 27:8-10 refers to a PERSONALITY? 2. If it is, Are you saying that "No one was in the Fire" and "no One was around the Fire"? 3. Who spoke the phrase "Blessed is He who is in the fire and whatever is around it. And glory be to Allah, Lord of the worlds." Is it Allah or Moses? 4. Is your conclusion that Allah is powerless to be either within the Fire and around it without him seizing to be Allah?
Let us for the sake of argument agree with you that one verse of the Qur'an can abrogate an earlier verse.
I think the issue I am complaining about is when an abrogated verse is deleted and removed from the Qur'an.
The implication is really bad for you Muslims and it doesn't have any reasonable explanations. Let me break it down for you.
1. According to you Muslims,The Quran of Mohammed is the exact copy of the Qur'an of Allah in paradise. 2. According to you Muslims,The Quran of Allah in paradise is uncreated (it is an attribute of Allah) 3. There are verses abrogated both from recitation and ruling (deleted from the Qur'an)
If these two above are true, 1. Are these kind of abrogated verses in the Qur'an of Allah but deleted from the Qur'an of Mohammed? Eg. The verses on stoning and breastfeeding an adult man ten times 2. Did Jibril dictate as part of the Qur'an verses which were not in the Qur'an of Allah to Mohammed? 3. Don't you see that the doctrine of Abrogation invalidate the claim of eternal nature of the Qur'an?
Definitions of Abrogate:
To abolish, do away with, or annul, especially by authority. To annul by an authoritative act; to abolish by the authority of the maker or his successor; to repeal; -- applied to the repeal of laws, decrees, ordinances, the abolition of customs, etc.
To put an end to; to do away with.
I have shown verses of the Quran that were abrogated and the verses that abrogated them.
The allegation of existence of certain verses is questionable when you cannot prove outside some hadith that they existed?
Is it not the case that the hadith explained the exclusion of some chapters of the Quran from the collection of companions due to the feeling that these were prayers? Also the addition of Al-Qunnut as a Surah in other collections?
The burden of proof; onus probandi; is the obligation to provide sufficient supporting evidence for claims made by the accuser.
I have given examples of verses that were abrogated and what replaced them.
You misunderstand what is the lauhul mafuz. The Lauhul Mahfuz refers to the Preserved Tablet in Islamic belief, which is a celestial record where Allah has inscribed everything that will occur, including the Quran and all matters related to the universe.
Note the Quran isn't the only thing in the preserved tablet. Is it not true that other books were revealed to other prophets? Did they not fundamentally emphasize a sole all powerful God?
Is the Earth consisting the woods/wilderness and whatever insects or animals around where the 'non burning fire' not part of the blessed creation of Allah?
The voice that emanated from the burning bush doesn't necessarily mean what produced the sound was in the fire. Does your knowledge of physics not inform you of sound transferred to appear originating away from the source?
The perception of sound can be influenced by various factors.
TenQ: Qur'an 27:8-10 8: "So when he came to it (the Fire), he was called, 'Blessed is He who is in the fire and whatever is around it. And glory be to Allah, Lord of the worlds.'" 9: "'O Moses, indeed I am Allah, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.'" 10: "'And throw down your staff.' But when he saw it writhing as if it were a serpent, he turned to flee and did not look back. 'O Moses, do not fear. Indeed, in My presence the messengers do not fear.'"
You don't know who was in the Fire! What a shame. Allah says he has explained everything in DETAIL in your Quran but because you dont actually follow Allah, you follow Mohammed and your Scholars!
Even though this was not the Question asked by me: you said "Was Ibn Masud resident in Mecca when Uthmani initiated the standardisation of the Quran?" Were ALL the four reciters out of Mecca BOTH during the compilation of the Quran of Abubakar and the Quran of Uthman?
Is it TRUE that Muslim scholars especially Zaid was aware that some verses according to the best of the reciters Ubai was left out of the Quran?
Sahih al-Bukhari 4481 Narrated Ibn `Abbas: `Umar said, "Our best Qur'an reciter is Ubai and our best judge is `Ali; and in spite of this, we leave some of the statements of Ubai because Ubai says, 'I do not leave anything that I have heard from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) while Allah: "Whatever verse (Revelations) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We bring a better one or similar to it." (2.106)
How come even though they knew some of the verses of Ubai, why did they leave them out?
The phrase "Blessed is He who is in the fire and whatever is around it" serves as a declaration of the divine presence and blessing of Allah in that miraculous setting. It highlights the transcendence and majesty of Allah, who can manifest His signs and communicate with His prophets in extraordinary ways, such as through the burning bush experienced
In the Quran, it is understood that certain verses were revealed to replace or supersede earlier verses. Here are some examples:
1. Verse on Alcohol: Abrogated verse: Surah Al-Baqarah (2:219) mentions that in wine there is great sin and some benefit for people. Abrogating verse:Surah Al-Ma'idah (5:90) later commands: "O you who have believed, indeed, intoxicants, gambling, [sacrificing on] stone alters [to other than Allah], and divining arrows are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful."
2. Verse on Facing Qibla: -Abrogated verse: Surah Al-Baqarah (2:144) states that believers should face Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa. - Abrogating verse:Surah Al-Baqarah (2:150) later reveals that the qibla has been changed to the Kaaba in Makkah.
45 :1 Thus saith the LORD to his Messiah, to Cyrus, whom I have taken by his right hand to subdue Gentiles before him and to loose the loins of kings. To open before him the two-leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut
In Isaiah 45:1, “Messiah” refers to Cyrus, highlighting his role as a divinely appointed leader instrumental in fulfilling God’s promise to restore Israel.
TenQ: No problem! If Allah wasn't in the Fire, no problem, the question was
Who was in the Fire according to Qur'an 27:8-10?
You have just proved that the Qur'an and Hadiths are combinations of contradictions.
Is Allah like satan who sleeps in your noses while Allah lodges in the jugular veins of you Muslims?
Allah is near, yet he is above the seventh heaven AND he cannot even enter his creation (earth) without ceasing to be Allah?
Can you not see your contradictions?
What has Ubay got to do with this post? Are you dazed?
I cannot answer the question, yet I used a VERB to justify what the Jews did in trying to hide the truth of what the Thalmud prescribed for the punishment of fornication again!?
You are surely confused!? The purpose of quoting in Nairaland is to avoid this kind of blunders.
Unlike you and your pagan inclination Muslims do not imagine a God in something he created to worship.
You are the one who presents hadith to justify your wrong arguments as you cannot understand?
Do you now forget your inclusion of Ubai in your arguments? Tell me about confusion.
TenQ: All I needed was anyone of Ibn Mas'ud, Ubayy bin Ka'b, Mu'adh bin Jabal, and Salim the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifah.
They were alive but we're not part of the committees of both Abubaker and Uthman
Is this hadith Maudi or Daif? Sahih al-Bukhari 4481 Narrated Ibn `Abbas: `Umar said, "Our best Qur'an reciter is Ubai and our best judge is `Ali; and in spite of this, we leave some of the statements of Ubai because Ubai says, 'I do not leave anything that I have heard from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) while Allah: "Whatever verse (Revelations) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We bring a better one or similar to it." (2.106)
Of course you forget your reference to Ubay/Ubai in your responses? Allow yourself age appropriately before you start becoming forgetful.
Was Ibn Masud resident in Mecca when Uthmani initiated the standardisation of the Quran? Get your points for negation in order before typing.
Alleged abrogated verses of the Quran and verses that abrogate them are in the Quran. The abrogation you referred to is with respect to books and instructions given to mankind through earlier prophets.
TenQ: Repeating falsehood a million times will never make it the truth.
Please except you are surrendering and fleeing, answer my questions
Questions 1. Please who is inside the Fire according to the Qur'an ? 2. Can Allah enter his creation without ceasing to be Allah? 3. In Islam, is there a difference between Allah and Your Lord? 4. Tell me, when Allah came to you muslims in a different shape, did he stop being Allah? 5. What is your comment on this: Have you ever noticed that the STYLE of speech of Allah is very different from that of YHWH the God of Abraham , Moses, the Jews and Christians? 6. Do you think Jibril (with 600 wings) has ANY Authority to SPEAK as Allah or to Speak for Allah?
If Islam is the Truth, then truthfully answer the 6 questions above.
Like said earlier: Repeating Falsehood a million times will not convert it into the TRUTH
It's obvious who is repeating here. Reforming questions at will.
1. Answered
2. There's no need for that. Show where Allah in his majesty enters his creation if you ask the truth.
3. This depends on context of use. Allah is lord above all things. My question on the lord is to clarify if it is the angel your scripture says appears to Moses in the fire or God that spoke. It seems your God requires a form before he can speak. Does the scripture say the angel spoke on behalf of God or God is speaking through the angel?
Otherwise it is a waste in Exodus 2 saying There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush.
Was the writer too lazy to add Angel of the lord in the following verses speaking on the directive of the lord?
The importance of the angel where there's already a fire doesn't make sense.
In other verses the significance of the Angel different from God is clear or isn't it?
Zechariah 1:12-21 Then the angel of the Lord said, “O Lord of hosts, how long will You have no compassion for Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been indignant these seventy years?” The Lord answered the angel who was speaking with me with gracious words, comforting words. So the angel who was speaking with me said to me, “Proclaim, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts, “I am exceedingly jealous for Jerusalem and Zion.
Luke 1:11-13 And an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing to the right of the altar of incense. Zacharias was troubled when he saw the angel, and fear gripped him. But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John.
Luke 1:26-38 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.
From the above verses it is clear the writer in Exodus made omissions or was lazy.
4. Allah came to Muslims (past tense?). When, where?
Guy another obvious lie of yours.
5. What is with noticing style? Is the same language spoken and is it the same people? Perhaps if these were the case you will have a case.
Do Jews and Christians see YHWH in the same sense?
Is it incorrect that Jews and Christians recognize YHWH as central to their faiths but they do not see Him in precisely the same way due to differing theological frameworks regarding God’s nature.
6. The angel Jibril is often used to deliver messages from Allah to man. Muslims do not pray through Jibril where he now needs to regurgitate our prayers to Alllah.
You seem to be confusing your disputes with Jehovah witness here.
Now tell what you know for certain about the time of death of Ubay with reference to the standardisation of the Quran by Uthman?
Otherwise accept you have been your usual habitual waste of time.
Allah was not physically present in the fire. When Allah spoke to Musa (AS) at the burning bush, it was through a miraculous means. The fire was a sign from Allah, and the voice came from Him, but His actual presence was not in the fire.
You obviously don't know the language of the scripture. This is what I highlighted earlier on
TenQ: Give answers to my Questions before I take you seriously. Otherwise, I assume this is an escapist manoeuvre by you. It is understandable if you avoid answering my questions as I answered yours in detail afterall, you are a Muslim: its not any surprise
Again: Here is the post if you are not scared
Your question is ridiculously naive. When someone is thrown into the Fire of Hell, why doesnt he die?
You seem to forget that the Creator of everything can command to forbid the power of consumption of a Fire? Are you saying that Allah cannot forbid a fire from burning someone? It seems you have never read Quran 21:69
The Bush wasn't Burning Because God forbid the fire from consuming the bush as He was in the Fire as the one known as "The Angel of the Lord". YHWH often comes down in the Old Testament as a MAN or as an ANGEL known as the Angel of the Lord BECAUSE The Angel SPEAK AS GOD and not FOR GOD as an ordinary Angel. Did God appear to Abraham as a Man in the Bible? Exactly like that with the personage of "The Angel of the Lord"
Note: YHWH can enter His Creations without ceasing to be God.
Now will you answer my Questions that you escaped answering (and the same kind of response you give is how I will use to respond to your further question) Question: Qur'an 27:8-10 8: "So when he came to it (the Fire), he was called, 'Blessed is He who is in the fire and whatever is around it. And glory be to Allah, Lord of the worlds.'" 9: "'O Moses, indeed I am Allah, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.'" 10: "'And throw down your staff.' But when he saw it writhing as if it were a serpent, he turned to flee and did not look back. 'O Moses, do not fear. Indeed, in My presence the messengers do not fear.'"
1. Please who is inside the Fire according to the Qur'an ? 2. Can Allah enter his creation without ceasing to be Allah?
God was the One in the Fire appearing as a personage called "The Angel of the LORD" by Moses. LORD in capital letters is literally YHWH Thus LORD is not different from God
3. In Islam, is there a difference between Allah and Your Lord?
You are repeating the Question. A normal Angel is NOT God BUT God can take the form of an Angel and He would remain GOD! The personage called the Angel of the LORD is God appearing in the form of an Angel. The Angel does not speak like a normal Angel but speaks in FIRST PERSON as God.
Question: According to Sahih al-Bukhari 7439 Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri: We said, "O Allah's Messenger! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon when the sky is clear?" We said, "No." He said, "So you will have no difficulty in seeing your Lord on that Day as you have no difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon (in a clear sky)." ....Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation.
Question 4. Tell me, when Allah came to you muslims in a different shape, did he stop being Allah ? 5. What is your comment on this: Have you ever noticed that the STYLE of speech of Allah is very different from that of YHWH the God of Abraham , Moses, the Jews and Christians? 6. Do you think Jibril (with 600 wings) has ANY Authority to SPEAK as Allah or to Speak for Allah?
I have answered you questions with enough verses from the Old Testament for you to confirm even though you did not answer mine. NOW, I have put my major questions in RED so that you wouldn't claim not to see them!
You keep forcing this invitation to your personal hadith confusion.
Does Allah need to descend to the lowest heaven according to the hadith you quote to hear prayers when he already says in the Quran that:
Quran 2:186 And when My servants ask you concerning Me, indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me.
and
Quran 50:16 And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein
Do you not see how you show the hadith confuses you on what Allah's relation with his creation Is?
Obviously you cannot assuredly answer the question on Ubay and are parrying in your characteristic time wasting nature.
What verb did you use to justify what the Jews did in trying to hide the truth of what the Thalmud prescribed for the punishment of fornication again?
Your lie remains a lie no matter how you make it up.
TenQ: Your question is ridiculously naive. When someone is thrown into the Fire of Hell, why doesnt he die?
You seem to forget that the Creator of everything can command to forbid the power of consumption of a Fire? Are you saying that Allah cannot forbid a fire from burning someone? It seems you have never read Quran 21:69
The Bush wasn't Burning Because God forbid the fire from consuming the bush as He was in the Fire as the one known as "The Angel of the Lord". YHWH often comes down in the Old Testament as a MAN or as an ANGEL known as the Angel of the Lord BECAUSE The Angel SPEAK AS GOD and not as an ordinary Angel. Did God appear to Abraham as a Man in the Bible? Exactly like that with the personage of "The Angel of the Lord"
YHWH can enter His Creations without ceasing to be God.
Now will you answer my Questions that you escaped answering (and the same kind of response you give is how I will use to respond to your further question) Question: Qur'an 27:8-10 8: "So when he came to it (the Fire), he was called, 'Blessed is He who is in the fire and whatever is around it. And glory be to Allah, Lord of the worlds.'" 9: "'O Moses, indeed I am Allah, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.'" 10: "'And throw down your staff.' But when he saw it writhing as if it were a serpent, he turned to flee and did not look back. 'O Moses, do not fear. Indeed, in My presence the messengers do not fear.'"
1. Please who is inside the Fire according to the Qur'an ? 2. Can Allah enter his creation without ceasing to be Allah?
God was the One in the Fire appearing as a personage called "The Angel of the LORD" by Moses. LORD in capital letters is literally YHWH Thus LORD is not different from God
3. In Islam, is there a difference between Allah and Your Lord?
You are repeating the Question. A normal Angel is NOT God BUT God can take the form of an Angel and He would remain GOD! The personage called the Angel of the LORD is God appearing in the form of an Angel. The Angel does not speak like a normal Angel but speaks in FIRST PERSON as God.
Question: According to Sahih al-Bukhari 7439 Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri: We said, "O Allah's Messenger! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon when the sky is clear?" We said, "No." He said, "So you will have no difficulty in seeing your Lord on that Day as you have no difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon (in a clear sky)." ....Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation.
Question 4. Tell me, when Allah came to you muslims in a different shape, did he stop being Allah ? 5. What is your comment on this: Have you ever noticed that the STYLE of speech of Allah is very different from that of YHWH the God of Abraham , Moses, the Jews and Christians? 6. Do you think Jibril (with 600 wings) has ANY Authority to SPEAK as Allah or to Speak for Allah?
I have answered you questions with enough verses from the Old Testament for you to confirm even though you did not answer mine. NOW, I have put my major questions in RED so that you wouldn't claim not to see them!
It is very obvious that the fire seen by Moses is not in hell or are you now saying Moses was in hell?
The lengths you go to in a failed bid to make a point. Where is it stated in the Bible or Quran that God or Allah forbade the fire from burning the bush?
You have just manufactured and imputed your own exegesis isn't it?
You see why the hadith you fondly love and refer to can have problems?
Can you review places where God spoke directly to man in your Bible against the confusion narrated that isn't clear if God or the Angel is speaking?
Where does the Bible categorically say God takes the form of an angel to speak to man?
You make reference to a normal angel and I wonder if there's an abnormal one?
The essence of the fire and the encounter of God with Moses appears not properly understood by you.
The fire or light and the spoken words of Allah are all his manifestation. The Quran doesn't share the confusion of putting an angel in the mix.
You pretend not to have seen my question of when Ubay ibn Ka'b died in relation to the standardisation of the Quran by Uthman. Can you refer and answer?
Has your God not spoken to people directly in the Bible without any intermediaries before and after Moses?
Your following questions are about Hadith and I have raised concerns about the variability of hadith narrations.
I don't know why you keep referring me to YHWH when Allah doesn't say he and YHWH are the same.
TenQ: I don't dispute that. I only said that one can logically defeat anyone who insists and is repeatedly saying that Obafemi Awolowo was a President of Nigeria at any time by bringing EVIDENCES and using LOGICAL inferences.
This was what I did with you.
No one disputes that with you Muslims. However, Allah says you should also obey Mohammed. Moreover, these are your books you claim just like the Qur'an that it has reliable ISNAD and you have selected the Sahih hadits to narrate.
The Quran is useless without the Hadiths and the Tafsirs. The Qur'an is a bundle of contradictions, errors and Allah gives commands that is unbefitting for YHWH God of Israel: this is why the Qur'an cannot be the word of God.
Have you ever noticed that the STYLE of speech of Allah is very different from that of YHWH the God of Abraham , Moses, the Jews and Christians?
It seems you are becoming a Qur'an only Muslim. Don't forget that your religion consists of obeying Allah AND Mohammed.
LOL: According to the Bible, the Fire was Burning but the Bush was not consumed by the fire. This was what attracted Moses to this bush
Qur'an 27:8-10 8: "So when he came to it (the Fire), he was called, 'Blessed is He who is in the fire and whatever is around it. And glory be to Allah, Lord of the worlds.'" 9: "'O Moses, indeed I am Allah, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.'" 10: "'And throw down your staff.' But when he saw it writhing as if it were a serpent, he turned to flee and did not look back. 'O Moses, do not fear. Indeed, in My presence the messengers do not fear.'"
Please who is inside the Fire according to the Qur'an ?
I see you don't get the point.
When something burns is it consumed? Using charcoal, wood or gas stove are these fuels consumed?
The question is was the bush actually burning?
Then we need some clarity was it God or an angel or God through the angel that spoke to Moses at the burning bush according to the Bible?
Exodus 3:4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.”
(Also is the lord different from God?)
Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Now the Angel appears in the flame out of the midst of the bush yet God called to him from within the bush.
Is it the Angel or God in the bush that spoke to Moses?
Who exactly says Exodus 3: 5 Do not come any closer, God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.
6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father,[a] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.
Remember Exodus 3:2 says the Angel appears to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush.
Or is this a case of Jacob wrestling with God or an angel in Genesis 32:22-32?
Is Angel equal to God?
Exegesis or Hadith may vary on the elucidation of a Quran verse but does the verse itself vary?
TenQ: This exercise you just did shows that one can LOGICALLY arrive at the truth by following REASON and making deductions out of these reasons.
It is irrelevant if I repeat 1000 times that Obafemi Awolowo was the president of Nigeria if I cannot disprove the points you itemized.
Unfortunately, this is what you are doing. You desperately want the standard islamic narrative to be true that you are willing NOT to apply LOGIC and SENSE to the glaring EVIDENCES presented to you.
Is your notion that 1. The Qur'an is not eternal And 2. The Qur'an is not an attribute of Allah And 3. The Qur'an is created
Is this Quote untrue?
When Jesus or any prophet interpret the law, he does not delete the old law. He only updates the law.
Is it untrue that Islamic abrogation involves 1. Deleting verses from the Qur'an but not in ruling (e.g. Stoning of Adulterers) 2. Deleting verses from the Qur'an and in ruling (e.g. Breastfeeding of Adults) 2. Abrogation without deletion (eg. The verse on Mutah)
I presume you are pained just because the LOGIC of Islam has failed you. FYI: -In the Old Testament, God YHWH sometimes appeared as a physical Being -In the Old Testament, God YHWH is a Spirit -In the Old Testament, God YHWH is the Father in heaven
There is no difference between the Old Testament description of God AND the New Testament for YHWH is ONE except that this nature of God is given a nomenclature by Christians as Trinity.
All these you flee from answering questions that betray the LIES you chose to believe?
If you are pained, I will allow you to escape and nurse your wounds: after all, the TRUTH sometimes hurt.
Is it a lie that people view Awolowo as the actual winner of the election as Ojukwu is on record to have said Awolowo is the best president Nigeria never had?
The absolute truth of the Quran is above the Hadith.
- The Quran represents God's final message to humanity without error or contradiction. - While Hadith enriches understanding and practice within Islam, it remains subordinate to the teachings found in the Quran.
Scholars assess Hadith based on their chains of narration (isnad) and content (matn). Thus, not all Hadith carry equal weight or authority.
Any opinion derived from Hadith must align with what is stated in the Quran. If there is a conflict between a particular Hadith and a clear verse from the Quran, the latter takes priority.
How can you depend on what is not absolutely correct to arrive at a truthful decision?
In the words of my brother from Syria the hadith is a often a tool of deception derived by the satans and unbelievers to corrupt the actual directive of Allah.
It is a common tool in your hands or are your questions not derived mainly from the hadith?
When Moses saw a burning bush was the bush actually burning? You obviously do not understand the language you think your God communicates with you through.
TenQ: Repeating your preferred narrative doesn't change anything my friend: Fault the logic and arrive at a different conclusion from mine.
If I repeat from now till eternity that Obafemi Awolowo was a President of the Federal republic of Nigeria does not make it true UNLESS I can fault correctly the opposing LOGIC!
It's a pity my friend: anything based on falsehood will have tonnes of internal contradictions.
AGAIN HERE IS THE LOGICAL PROOF
If I get you correctly, your claim is that Allah caused some of the verses of the Qur'an to be forgotten by abrogation.
BUT, this is LOGICALLY fallacious: why? Let me show you!
Premise of Logic: 1. The Qur'an is eternal as an attribute of Allah 2. The Qur'an of Mohammed is the exact copy of the Kitab Allah in paradise 3. Jibril dictated the Qur'an (from the Kitab Allah) to Mohammed and was perfectly memorised by Mohammed and transmitted to the Muslims 4. Mohammed cannot forget the Qur'an. Qur'an 75:16-17 and Qur'an 29:45
Is any of these claims of Islam above wrong or false?
Inference from Premise 1. If the Qur'an is eternal, non of the verses can be abrogated from the text. Note: the principle of abrogation is incompatible with the concept of the Qur'an being eternal. 2. If the Qur'an of Mohammed is the exact copy of the Kitab Allah in paradise AND the Qur'an is eternal, then non of the verses can be abrogated from its text. 3. If Jibril dictated the Qur'an (from the Kitab Allah) to Mohammed and it was perfectly memorised by Mohammed and transmitted to the Muslims BUT some verses were forgotten , then the Qur'an of Mohammed is not identical to Kitab Allah in paradise. Note: the preservation of the Qur'an involves both memorization and written texts, and discrepancies between these might impact the claim of exact replication. 4. If Allah guarantees that Mohammed cannot forget the Qur'an according to Qur'an 75:16-17 and Qur'an 29:45 then no verse of the Qur'an can be forgotten except the Qur'an contradicted itself
Logical Conclusions: 1. If the Qur'an is eternal, and if the Qur'an of Muhammad is indeed an exact copy of the Kitab Allah in paradise, and if Muhammad could not forget the Qur'an, then it follows that no verses should be lost or abrogated. 2. If some verses are reported as forgotten or abrogated, it would suggest inconsistencies either in the understanding of eternal preservation or in the process of transmission, contradicting the claim of the Qur'an being an exact and eternal copy of the Kitab Allah.
Tell me Truthfully: Which of the eternal attributes of Allah change with time?
It's a pity my friend: anything based on falsehood will have tonnes of internal contradictions.
It truly is my undoing to try to discuss with you as the lengths you go to push down your false version of the truth is beyond measure.
Obafemu Awolowo of blessed memory did not win the presidential election however the results were reached.
Awolowo had challenged the declaration of Shagari as president saying although Shagari had the highest votes, winning in 12 states did not meet the requirement of two third of 19 states which ought to have been rounded up to 13 as a state could not be fractionalized.
The Supreme Court however upheld Chief Richard Akinjide’s submission that since Shagari had two third of the votes cast in the 13th state, which was Kano, his 12 two third majority votes was enough for him to be declared the winner. Shehu Shagari scored 5,688,857 votes to Obafemi Awolowo score of 4,916,651, in total.
In finality whoever had the highest votes was declared winner. This is far different from the case of MKO Abiola where the election was annulled. Was there an official declaration of the results by then NEC?
Mr Falsehood and misleading attributes of Allah. You have now shifted from forcing your concept of the holy spirit attribute of Allah? Why so desperate?
The Quran is not considered an attribute of Allah in the same way His divine attributes are described. The Quran is the literal word of Allah revealed to the Prophet Muhammad through Jibree. It is a manifestation of Allah's speech and wisdom, a guidance for humanity, and a source of light and mercy. Were previous books like the Torah given to Moses not like this?
While the Quran is not an attribute of Allah in the theological sense, it is a divine revelation that reflects the beauty, perfection, and wisdom of Allah. Muslims hold the Quran in the highest esteem and consider it the ultimate source of guidance and truth. The Quran is to be recited, understood, and implemented in the lives of believers to attain closeness to Allah and success in this world and the Hereafter.
You now appear to confuse Al-Lawh al-Mahfuz, often translated as the Preserved Tablet which is a significant concept in Islamic theology. It refers to a celestial tablet that contains the divine decrees and knowledge of all that has happened and will happen until the Day of Judgment.
Is it restricted to recording only things that are termed good that have happened? Was the flood of Noah, destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah the community of Lot essentially a good thing? Is it in the record or not?
The concept of al-Lawh al-Mahfuz extends beyond just a record of events; it also includes the divine revelations given to prophets throughout history.
Did Jesus permit certain things to the Israelites that were previously forbidden? Something to consider is working on the sabath day, eating with gentiles/sinners, restriction on food. I may not agree with everything stated in your Bible.
I will not bother with your twisted understanding of the Quran verses as you wriggle and misinterpret too much. Reread the verses you presented perhaps you presented them in error.
Someone insistent in attributes of God not changing should first address the difference in the concept of God from the old to the new testament especially worshipping another instead of him.
The concept of God in the Old Testament is centered around the idea of a single, all-powerful, and all-knowing deity who created the universe and governs it.
While the Old Testament portrays God as a single, all-powerful deity, the New Testament presents a more complex and nuanced understanding of God, with a focus on the person of Jesus Christ. The worship of Jesus as God is a central theme in the New Testament, and has significant implications for Christian theology and practice.
See where significant changes in attributes occur?
I conclude it is all a huge joke to you. Keep laughing.
Christianity Etc › Re: Evidence That Ancient Qurans Are Different From Modern Qurans by Ohyoudidnt: 11:01am On Aug 20, 2024
