TenQ: If I get you correctly, your claim is that Allah caused some of the verses of the Qur'an to be forgotten by abrogation.
BUT, this is LOGICALLY fallacious: why? Let me show you!
Premise of Logic: 1. The Qur'an is eternal as an attribute of Allah 2. The Qur'an of Mohammed is the exact copy of the Kitab Allah in paradise 3. Jibril dictated the Qur'an (from the Kitab Allah) to Mohammed and was perfectly memorised by Mohammed and transmitted to the Muslims 4. Mohammed cannot forget the Qur'an. Qur'an 75:16-17 and Qur'an 29:45
Is any of these claims of Islam above wrong or false?
Inference from Premise 1. If the Qur'an is eternal, non of the verses can be abrogated from the text. Note: the principle of abrogation is incompatible with the concept of the Qur'an being eternal. 2. If the Qur'an of Mohammed is the exact copy of the Kitab Allah in paradise AND the Qur'an is eternal, then non of the verses can be abrogated from its text. 3. If Jibril dictated the Qur'an (from the Kitab Allah) to Mohammed and it was perfectly memorised by Mohammed and transmitted to the Muslims BUT some verses were forgotten , then the Qur'an of Mohammed is not identical to Kitab Allah in paradise. Note: the preservation of the Qur'an involves both memorization and written texts, and discrepancies between these might impact the claim of exact replication. 4. If Allah guarantees that Mohammed cannot forget the Qur'an according to Qur'an 75:16-17 and Qur'an 29:45 then no verse of the Qur'an can be forgotten except the Qur'an contradicted itself
Logical Conclusions: 1. If the Qur'an is eternal, and if the Qur'an of Muhammad is indeed an exact copy of the Kitab Allah in paradise, and if Muhammad could not forget the Qur'an, then it follows that no verses should be lost or abrogated. 2. If some verses are reported as forgotten or abrogated, it would suggest inconsistencies either in the understanding of eternal preservation or in the process of transmission, contradicting the claim of the Qur'an being an exact and eternal copy of the Kitab Allah.
Tell me Truthfully: Which of the eternal attributes of Allah change with time?
It's a pity my friend: anything based on falsehood will have tonnes of internal contradictions.
TenQ: 1. Is it a wrong notion that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved, word for word up to the diacritical marks? Yes or No! 2. If you cannot answer my questions because it betrays the imperfections of the Qur'an, nothing else matters. Evidence abound that the Qur'an is not perfectly preserved. But you don't care. Who is fooling who?
I asked you
Is this hadith fabricated or weak
Sahih al-Bukhari 4481 Narrated Ibn `Abbas: `Umar said, "Our best Qur'an reciter is Ubai and our best judge is `Ali; and in spite of this, we leave some of the statements of Ubai because Ubai says, 'I do not leave anything that I have heard from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) while Allah: "Whatever verse (Revelations) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We bring a better one or similar to it." (2.106)
Verses were left out of the Qur'an yet Muslims say that it is still preserved word for word, up to it's diacritical marks.
Is this not self delusion?
Where is the verse of Rajam in the Qur'an of Hafs you use
Sahih al-Bukhari 6830 Narrated Ibn `Abbas: I used to teach (the Qur'an to) some people of the Muhajirln (emigrants), among whom there was `Abdur Rahman bin `Auf..... Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male & female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him. I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah's Book,' and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed......
The Qur'an is perfectly preserved and the verse on Rajam was deleted!? SMH!
Conclusion of Muslims: The Qur'an was perfectly preserved, word for word, up to it's diacritical marks even though evidences around that verses were excluded and verses somehow disappeared from it. This is the greatest self delusion that could befall a person because the Truth Never Matters.
Are you beyond help?
John 14:6-7: "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me. If you had known me, you should have known my Father also: and from now on you know him, and have seen him."
Quran 2.106-107 Maududi - Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur'an This is the answer to an objection which the Jews raised to create doubts in the minds of the Muslims. They argued like this: The Qur'an says that the former Scriptures had been sent down by Allah and that it also has been sent down by Him. If it is so, why does the Qur'an then give such commands as differ from those contained in the former Books'? How can the same Allah give different commands at different times? Besides, they said, "The Qur'an asserts that the Jews and the Christians have forgotten a part of the teachings sent down to them. How is it possible that the teachings of Allah could be obliterated from memory?" They did not raise these objections for the sake of arriving at the truth but for the sake of creating mischief. Allah answers their objections thus: "I am the Sovereign and My powers are unlimited. I can repeal any order of Mine or allow it to be forgotten, but I substitute for it something that serves the same purpose better or at least equally well."
Ibn Kathir .......
Ibn Jarir then said, "Although Allah directed His statement indicating His greatness towards His Prophet, He also rejected the lies of the Jews who denied that the rulings of the Torah could undergo abrogation.
The Jews also denied the prophethood of Jesus and Muhammad, because of their dislike for what they brought from Allah, such as changing some rulings of the Torah, as Allah commanded.
Allah thus proclaimed to the Jews that He owns the heavens and earth and also all authority in them. Further, the subjects in Allah's kingdom are His creation, and they are required to hear and obey His commands and prohibitions. Allah has full authority to command the creation as He wills, forbidding them from what He wills, abrogate what He wills, uphold what He wills, and decide whatever commandments and prohibitions He wills.'' Ibn Kathir) say that the Jews' dismissal of the occurrence of the abrogation is only a case of their disbelief and rebellion. The sound mind does not deny that there could be a abrogation in Allah's commandments, for He decides what He wills, just as He does what He wills.
Further, abrogation occurred in previous Books and Law. For instance, Allah allowed Adam to marry his daughters to his sons and then later forbade this practice. Allah also allowed Nuh to eat from all kinds of animals after they left the ark, then prohibited eating some types of foods. Further, marrying two sisters to one man was allowed for Israel and his children, but Allah prohibited this practice later in the Torah. Allah commanded Abraham to slaughter his son, then repealed that command before it was implemented. Also, Allah commanded the Children of Israel to kill those who worshipped the calf and then repealed that command, so that the Children of Israel were not all exterminated (I know your Bible has a horrid difference which appears partial in sparing Aaron though our view of this differs in Islam).
There are many other instances that the Jews admit have occurred, yet they ignore them. Also, it is a well-known fact that their Books foretold about Muhammad and contained the command to follow him. These texts, in their Books, indicate that the Jews were required to follow the Prophet Muhammad and that no good deed would be accepted from them, unless it conformed to Muhammad's Law. The Prophet brought another Book, - the Qur'an -, which is the last revelation from Allah.
You shared something where the Jews tried to hide the punishment of death to the fornicator by covering it until a Jewish companion of Muhammad pbuh exposed them?
Does Quran 24:2 As for female and male fornicators, give each of them one hundred lashes,and do not let pity for them make you lenient in ˹enforcing˺ the law of Allah, if you ˹truly˺ believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a number of believers witness their punishment.
not abolish what is said in the Torah/Talmud followed by the Jews on stoning to death the fornicator?
In any case it has been another wasteful encounter with you. Hop on to your next thrill
TenQ: You wrote answers 1 through 7 (I assume for my questions) when non of your answers are related to my questions.
I will give you the first three to confirm if you are aware of what you did.
The Question 1. Which one of the current Quran is the Quran of Allah on the tablet in heaven?
Your response There are seven recognized Ahruf that encompass broader linguistic variations, while there are multiple Riwayat associated with each Qira’at, reflecting individual narrators’ methods.
You can place the 23 claimed different Quran in them.
We expect that there is just ONE Kalam Allah in paradise. Is this wrong?
If there is one Kalam Allah which one of the seven dialects is the Kalam Allah?
Scholars have found over 36 different Arabic Qur'ans (far much more that the seven dialects you claim). Even then, till now, no Muslim has been able to tell us the name of the Qur'an sent to other tribes other than the Quraysh tribe.
Except what you are claiming is that 26 Kalam Allah are in paradise.
Question 2. How come the Sanaa Quran is different from the standard Qurans in many verses? Lets assume that you tried your best here except that the logic doesn't add up. How is any Muslim sure that a STUDENT wrote those verses in the Sana'a Quran? Leather Patchments are expensive and thus would not be given to a beginner: slates are more appropriate for students. Speculations is definitely NOT a proof
Your response 2. Is all the Sana'a Quran different from the Quran in use? Of 926 just one with erased and corrected text is what you fail to prove different. You fail to acknowledge comments that are observed in it stated in the 17 mins video.
The archaeological findings, particularly the Ṣanaa 1 manuscript, reveal significant insights into the early textual traditions of the Qurʾān. The study suggests that the lower writing of the manuscript represents a non-ʿUt̠mānic textual tradition, distinct from the standardized version established by ʿUt̠mān. This lower text is indicative of the early state of the Qurʾān during the time of the Prophet Muhammad and the Companions, showing variations that likely arose from the aural transmission of the text.
The comparison indicates that the ʿUt̠mānic text type, which is the basis for the Qurʾān as it exists today, is generally more faithful to the original recitations of the Prophet than the C-1 tradition represented in the manuscript. However, the findings also highlight that variations among the different codices—like those in C-1 and the codex of Ibn Masʿūd—were not merely accidental but were likely shaped by the oral traditions of the time.
In conclusion, while the ʿUt̠mānic version is seen as preserving the Prophetic prototype more accurately, the archaeological evidence underscores the existence of multiple, contemporaneous textual traditions that enrich our understanding of the Qurʾān's early history and its transmission.
Is it UNTRUE that your Youtuber acknowledged that there are differences within the first five minutes of his broadcast. He then gave excuses that the errors were scribal error of a Qur'anic student.
The Question was: How is any Muslim sure that a STUDENT wrote those verses in the Sana'a Quran?
The Question: 3. Why did Muslim scholars tell white lies on the preservation of the Quran? One of the LIES is that the Quran of Mohammed is perfectly Preserved word for word up to the diacritical marks! Is this a true statement?
Your Response: ?
I didn't see anything related
Question 1 Second set 1. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected in the time of Mohammed? 2. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected again in the time of Abubaker without using that of Mohammed? 3. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected again during the time of Uthman? Your response 3. Was the Quran recollected or what had been previously collected unified and standardised?
Question 1, 2 and 3 required just a YES or a NO answer. You response didn't answer any of the three questions.
The Qur'an was collected at least three different times: The first was in the lifetime of Mohammed, the second was the lifetime of Abubaker and the third was the lifetime of Uthman. Challenge this and I will give you evidence for each
Question 4. Why would you use the Qur'an according to the RECITATION of Hafs if you have any of these Qur'ans from Mohammed to Abubaker to Uthman?
Your response 4. My use or non use of Hafs Quran doesn't invalidate the authenticity of other types or is it said to be ejected anywhere?
You seem not to get it. Let's assume that You have the manuscript of Uthman, why use the RECITATION of Hafs rather than the Manuscript of Uthman?
Question 5. Is it untrue that according to Zaid a. Qur'an of Abubakar has Quran 9:128-129 but doesn't have Qur'an 33:23? b. Qur'an of Uthman corrected Abubakar's Qur'an by adding Quran 33:23? Do you need evidence?
Your Response
I am still expecting your response
Question 6. Of the four reciters, can you name the one who joined Zaid to collect or write the Qur'an. If you need evidence that they where alive yet not part of the committee, what will you do?
Your Response 6. Of the four reciters, can you name the one who joined Zaid to collect or write the Qur'an. If you need evidence that they where alive yet not part of the committee, what will you do?
All I needed was anyone of Ibn Mas'ud, Ubayy bin Ka'b, Mu'adh bin Jabal, and Salim the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifah.
They were alive but we're not part of the committees of both Abubaker and Uthman
Is this hadith Maudi or Daif? Sahih al-Bukhari 4481 Narrated Ibn `Abbas: `Umar said, "Our best Qur'an reciter is Ubai and our best judge is `Ali; and in spite of this, we leave some of the statements of Ubai because Ubai says, 'I do not leave anything that I have heard from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) while Allah: "Whatever verse (Revelations) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We bring a better one or similar to it." (2.106)
Question 7. The claim of Muslims is that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved up to the diacritical marks. a. If this is true, where is the verse of stoning and breastfeeding an adult ten times? b. If this is true, why do the earlier Muslims say that many verses are missing from the Qur'an of Uthman? c. If this is true, why was the Qur'an of Abubaker not identical with the Qur'an of Uthman? d. If this is true, where was the Qur'an of Mohammed collected by his best four reciters? e. If this claim is correct, why is the Hafs Qur'an different from the Warsh Qur'an?
Your response 7. The Quran is preserved however the exaggerated claim you submit is not accurate as the Quran is first oral and the diacritical marks or even alphabets have evolved over time.
Name the scholars who you say talk on preservation to the diacritical marks where, when and pointers to verify this.
You will see that you totally escaped answering any of the questions
One of your modern scholars: Qur'an preserved word for word even up to the pronunciation
I could get you more but I wanted videos that are very short.
Of course the Hadith and your Old scholars disagree with you. The word for word Preservation statement is a fabrication by the modern scholars to deceive the modern Muslims.
We can end this about the Qur'an if you choose or properly respond to my specific questions.
Have a nice day
Now you reveal the truth.
In context based on your videos which both fail to show literature backing of the preservation of the Quran to diacritical marks you cannot discern that as was the case that led to the documentation of there are now millions of Muslims all over the world that have memorized the Quran be it Hafs, Warsh or any other depending on the part of the world.
This is unlike when the followers of Islam were relatively few and dying off through conflict before Abu Bakr's and later Uthnan's call for standardisation to unify the recitation.
Is the Quran of Shia different from Sunni or Ahmadiyah? No.
Can you say same for the Catholic and Anglican Bible? Perhaps you will say only the new testament matters.
Did you ever come across Dr Asma Hilali's view that questioned Sana'a manuscript was a school exercise? I don't think so.
Of course you are ignorant of the fact that Ubay taught many students including Abu Bakr and Umar who gathered around him to read the Quran in the best way and to understand it.
He read the Quran and Zayd bin Thabit wrote it. He has an exceptional place in the history of Islam thanks to this service.
Share some of your vast knowledge and clarify if Uthmans standardisation of the Quran occurred before or after the death of Ubay ibn Ka'b?
You already have the answers you choose to agree with. Indeed your intentions are always mischief centered. Glad you come clean now for all to see.
TenQ: If we still narrow down on these three Questions, you will see that you didn't address them
1. Which one of the current Quran is the Quran of Allah on the tablet in heaven? We have so many Arabic Quran such as Hafs Qur'an Warsh Qur'an Qalun Qur'an al-Duri Qur'an al-Bazzi Qur'an Qunbul Qur'an al-Suri Qur'an Ibn `Amir Qur'an Hisham Qur'an Ibn Dhakwan Qur'an Khallad Qur'an al-Kisa'i Qur'an al-Duri Qur'an Abu'l-Harith Qur'an Ibn Wardan Qur'an Ibn Jamaz Qur'an Ya`qub al-Hashimi Qur'an Ruways Qur'an Rawh Qur'an Khalaf al-Bazzar Qur'an Ishaq Qur'an Idris al-Haddad Qur'an Khalaf Qur'an Which one of the current Quran is the Quran of Allah on the tablet in heaven?
2. How come the Sanaa Quran is different from the standard Qurans in many verses? Lets assume that you tried your best here except that the logic doesn't add up. How is any Muslim sure that a STUDENT wrote those verses in the Sana'a Quran? Leather Patchments are expensive and thus would not be given to a beginner: slates are more appropriate for students. Speculations is definitely NOT a proof
3. Why did Muslim scholars tell white lies on the preservation of the Quran? One of the LIES is that the Quran of Mohammed is perfectly Preserved word for word up to the diacritical marks! Is this a true statement?
Answering the Questions below show us what the TRUTH is: My Unanswered Questions 1. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected in the time of Mohammed? 2. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected again in the time of Abubaker without using that of Mohammed? 3. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected again during the time of Uthman? 4. Why would you use the Qur'an according to the RECITATION of Hafs if you have any of these Qur'ans from Mohammed to Abubaker to Uthman? 5. Is it untrue that according to Zaid a. Qur'an of Abubakar has Quran 9:128-129 but doesn't have Qur'an 33:23? b. Qur'an of Uthman corrected Abubakar's Qur'an by adding Quran 33:23? Do you need evidence? 6. Of the four reciters, can you name the one who joined Zaid to collect or write the Qur'an. If you need evidence that they where alive yet not part of the committee, what will you do? 7. The claim of Muslims is that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved up to the diacritical marks. a. If this is true, where is the verse of stoning and breastfeeding an adult ten times? b. If this is true, why do the earlier Muslims say that many verses are missing from the Qur'an of Uthman? c. If this is true, why was the Qur'an of Abubaker not identical with the Qur'an of Uthman? d. If this is true, where was the Qur'an of Mohammed collected by his best four reciters? e. If this claim is correct, why is the Hafs Qur'an different from the Warsh Qur'an?
So, my friend, Even if we narrow down to the Three Questions, you still have these questions to answer
ARE YOU AFRAID OF THE TRUTH?
You immediately review your questions? Why?
1. There are seven recognized Ahruf that encompass broader linguistic variations, while there are multiple Riwayat associated with each Qira’at, reflecting individual narrators’ methods.
You can place the 23 claimed different Quran in them.
2. Is all the Sana'a Quran different from the Quran in use? Of 926 just one with erased and corrected text is what you fail to prove different. You fail to acknowledge comments that are observed in it stated in the 17 mins video.
The archaeological findings, particularly the Ṣanaa 1 manuscript, reveal significant insights into the early textual traditions of the Qurʾān. The study suggests that the lower writing of the manuscript represents a non-ʿUt̠mānic textual tradition, distinct from the standardized version established by ʿUt̠mān. This lower text is indicative of the early state of the Qurʾān during the time of the Prophet Muhammad and the Companions, showing variations that likely arose from the aural transmission of the text.
The comparison indicates that the ʿUt̠mānic text type, which is the basis for the Qurʾān as it exists today, is generally more faithful to the original recitations of the Prophet than the C-1 tradition represented in the manuscript. However, the findings also highlight that variations among the different codices—like those in C-1 and the codex of Ibn Masʿūd—were not merely accidental but were likely shaped by the oral traditions of the time.
In conclusion, while the ʿUt̠mānic version is seen as preserving the Prophetic prototype more accurately, the archaeological evidence underscores the existence of multiple, contemporaneous textual traditions that enrich our understanding of the Qurʾān's early history and its transmission.
3. Was the Quran recollected or what had been previously collected unified and standardised?
4. My use or non use of Hafs Quran doesn't invalidate the authenticity of other types or is it said to be ejected anywhere?
5. The extra efforts of Zaid ibn Thabbit to ensure absolute truth in the compilation of the Quran is what you doubt? Was he involved in all the compilations? When and why did he get swayed to uphold falsehood?
6. Indeed Zaid didn't directly work with the said 4 reciters but did Ubay ibn Kab work with him during the Uthmani standardisation?
7. The Quran is preserved however the exaggerated claim you submit is not accurate as the Quran is first oral and the diacritical marks or even alphabets have evolved over time.
Name the scholars who you say talk on preservation to the diacritical marks where, when and pointers to verify this.
TenQ: WHY ARE YOU AFRAID TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS: Your youtube Video did NOT Address ANY of my Questions: do I not have the right to ask questions. Do you expect me to swallow everything you present without asking ANY Questions?
Unfortunately, the sources did NOT answer my questions: if it does, show me! Except you want to escape, please answer my questions below
My Unanswered Questions 1. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected in the time of Mohammed? 2. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected again in the time of Abubaker without using that of Mohammed? 3. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected again during the time of Uthman? 4. Why would you use the Qur'an according to the RECITATION of Hafs if you have any of these Qur'ans from Mohammed to Abubaker to Uthman? 5. Is it untrue that according to Zaid a. Qur'an of Abubakar has Quran 9:128-129 but doesn't have Qur'an 33:23? b. Qur'an of Uthman corrected Abubakar's Qur'an by adding Quran 33:23? Do you need evidence? 6. Of the four reciters, can you name the one who joined Zaid to collect or write the Qur'an. If you need evidence that they where alive yet not part of the committee, what will you do? 7. The claim of Muslims is that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved up to the diacritical marks. a. If this is true, where is the verse of stoning and breastfeeding an adult ten times? b. If this is true, why do the earlier Muslims say that many verses are missing from the Qur'an of Uthman? c. If this is true, why was the Qur'an of Abubaker not identical with the Qur'an of Uthman? d. If this is true, where was the Qur'an of Mohammed collected by his best four reciters? e. If this claim is correct, why is the Hafs Qur'an different from the Warsh Qur'an?
Except All you are doing is to escape answering my questions. You will admit that these your so-called sources doesn't address my questions.
If they do, kindly point them out to me. However, if you want to Dodge these have your way.
Yes I do.
When you teach a student, is it haram for the students to ask questions?
I have listened carefully to your presentations and I have some questions that should make me understand your position better. Why are you now angry that I asked you questions.
Don't forget that the claim of Islam is that the Quran is PERFECTLY Preserved up to the Diacritical Marks I didn't make up the claim: are you saying that we should just accept this claim as TRUE?
My Questions are fundamental!
Originally when you opened this thread your questions are:
1. Which one of the current Quran is the Quran of Allah on the tablet in heaven? 2. How come the Sanaa Quran is different from the standard Qurans in many verses? 3. Why did Muslim scholars tell white lies on the preservation of the Quran?
The numerous pictures you attached are comparisons of what you allege to be the Sana'a Quran albeit what is claimed to have been regenerated from the erased and overwritten lower text isn t it?
Is this not what you say you're surprised I hadn't seen on the 22nd of July 2024?
TenQ: Mr Ohyoudidnt , As promised. the table is set.
There are no way textual variants do not occur when manuscripts are copied manually, sometimes you have word omission, word addition, word interjection, word substitutions etc.
Why did the islamic scholars have to tell such blatant lies to the Muslims and everyone else that the Quran is perfectly preserved upt to the diacritical marks?
And this is just comparing the Hafs Quran with the existing copy of the Sanaa Quran.
My answers has centered on the Sana'a palimpsest and the Uthmani codec.
You can do research on your other questions more so when the answers I have shared with you are not satisfactory to you.
TenQ: I have gone through the ones I could and they didn't contain anything much different from what he had said. I'm sure you did not read all the sources too otherwise you would have known that I am not a native Arabic speaker.
Now that I've gone through the ones I could, none of them answered my questions. Unfortunately, I queried the logic and arguments of the Youtuber and found them wanting.
Is it Not strange that the Youtuber admitted differences between the Sana'a Qur'an and the Hafs Qur'an (due to student's error) only for two of them to retract their position to say that the Qur'an according to Sana'a is identical to the modern Qur'an?
Where they Threatened or Bribed or their retraction Forged? Were they blind in the first instance? No one external to them will know.
Unfortunately, the sources did NOT answer my questions: if it does, show me! Except you want to escape, please answer my questions below
My Unanswered Questions 1. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected in the time of Mohammed? 2. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected again in the time of Abubaker without using that of Mohammed? 3. Is it untrue that the Qur'an was collected again during the time of Uthman?
4. Why would you use the Qur'an according to the RECITATION of Hafs if you have any of these Qur'ans from Mohammed to Abubaker to Uthman?
5. Is it untrue that according to Zaid a. Qur'an of Abubakar has Quran 9:128-129 but doesn't have Qur'an 33:23? b. Qur'an of Uthman corrected Abubakar's Qur'an by adding Quran 33:23?
Do you need evidence?
6. Of the four reciters, can you name the one who joined Zaid to collect or write the Qur'an. If you need evidence that they where alive yet not part of the committee, what will you do?
7. The claim of Muslims is that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved up to the diacritical marks. a. If this is true, where is the verse of stoning and breastfeeding an adult ten times? b. If this is true, why do the earlier Muslims say that many verses are missing from the Qur'an of Uthman? c. If this is true, why was the Qur'an of Abubaker not identical with the Qur'an of Uthman? d. If this is true, where was the Qur'an of Mohammed collected by his best four reciters? e. If this claim is correct, why is the Hafs Qur'an different from the Warsh Qur'an?
Except All you are doing is to escape answering my questions. You will admit that these your so-called sources doesn't address my questions.
If they do, kindly point them out to me.
However, if you want to Dodge these have your way.
Do you know the difference between Hafs and Mushaf?
Logic employed are
1. Islamic tradition
2. Logic
3. Testimony of researchers.
You can find no sense in these methods as they don't align with you.
You now boldly claim or agree to be a non native arabic speaker or You now doubt the efficiency of your translations?
TenQ: My aim was to show you that your earliest Qur'an differ from your Hafs Qur'an and even your video agreed with me. He only had excuses that it was done by a student.
I watched this video two full times so as to get it's main thrust of argument and I was disappointed. Muslims love to lie and to hear lies.
The major argument is that the errors observed was because a STUDENT wrote the lower text of the Sana'a Qur'an.
Is this a factual Truth or a speculation that a student wrote this Qur'an?
For your information, students will write on wooden slates because both papyrus and animal skin parchments were expensive. Papyrus is far much cheaper than animal skins but less durable. Only the rich could afford skin parchments and this is not what you'd give a student.
Note: 1. The claim of Muslims is that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved up to the diacritical marks. a. If this is true, where is the verse of stoning and breastfeeding an adult ten times. b. If this is true, why do the earlier Muslims say that many verses are missing from the Qur'an of Uthman c. If this is true, why was the Qur'an of Abubaker not identical with the Qur'an of Uthman d. If this is true, where was the Qur'an of Mohammed collected by his best four reciters e. If this claim is correct, why is the Hafs Qur'an different from the Warsh Qur'an.
Good that you watched the video twice.
Did you query the resources used in making the video?
1. When did the documented or written form of the Quran come into existence?
What do you know about the history of written arabic and evolution of diacritical marks?
Why will what was not in existence be preserved or how do you preserve what doesn't exist yet?
a. It would not have been in doubt that there were verses missing if all your research and searches had brought one parchment with a bit of these missing verses. How do you ascertain something is missing without proof of it previously existing?
b. Perhaps you should bring forth the missing verses from Uthmani codex that was present in previous codices.
Don't say he destroyed all other codices as if he did where then do you get the one Sana'a palimpsest script that differs from this? The Birmingham Manuscript and The Topkapi manuscripts and others?
c. To what degree is Uthmani codex different from Abubakar's compilation?
Uthmani acted to resolve growing differences by encouraging recognition of mutually agreeable style so you don't have cases of various volume and content of the religious book as is seen in the old testament cannon of certain groups.
d. Was the Quran you term that of Prophet Muhammad pbuh a written documented book?
Zaid ibn Thabit’s compilation efforts combined with the teachings from the four great reciters laid a strong foundation for how Muslims engage with the Quran today. Their contributions ensured that both accurate recitation and understanding were prioritized within Islamic education.
In qualifying a reciter of Quran do you think it was just mere ability to recall and vocalist?
e. Now you push to your post that I deliberately ignore as it is not worthy use of my time. I cannot continue doing something that obviously brings no results.
Closed definition of one language by another fails to take in grammatical essence and nuance of tradition and culture.
Do you still marvel how things can be said differently yet have essentially the same meaning? Providing deeper concepts for reflection or you think words of God are just flippant statements that shouldn't be reflected upon
Get the actual meaning of what is said in the video you shared.
حُسْناً refers broadly to goodness or beauty in various forms—moral character, aesthetic appeal, etc. إِحْسَانًا, however, focuses on the quality of actions performed with excellence and sincerity.
The former denotes general goodness or beauty appreciated by individuals within their lives or communities, and the latter emphasizes an active pursuit of excellence in one’s deeds towards others as well as towards God. You see the dimensions?
Then:
Parchment, made from animal skin, is known for its strength and flexibility. It was widely used in medieval times for important documents and manuscripts, as it could withstand frequent handling and folding without tearing.
Papyrus, on the other hand, made from the fibrous inner part of the papyrus plant, is also highly durable and has been found in ancient Egyptian tombs with writing still intact.
Both parchment and papyrus have proven to be more resilient to the elements than wood, which can easily rot or decay over time.
I however am not up to further debate on this.
Enjoy your life and allow God be supreme.
Ohyoudidnt: If Allah had willed he could have made us all practice one religion however not to worry as
On the Day of Resurrection, God will judge between all regarding our differences
TenQ: Quite some time my friend. How are you and your Family?
The Jews Believe that the Holy Spirit is God's presence that gives Power. It is blasphemous to call God's Holy Spirit and angel. The only difference between the Jews and Christians with respect to the Holy Spirit is that the Jews will rather not form a Theology around the Holy Spirit.
To them, God is the Holy Spirit who gives His power and authority to chosen men AND God can put His spirit on any man for his empowerment.
To the Jews, the Holy Spirit is MORE than God's Power or Influence BUT His very Presence.
2Sam 23:2: "The Spirit of the LORD spoke by me, and his word was in my tongue."
Gods spirit can speak and is NOT and "it": He is a personality!
Isa 63:10: "But they rebelled, and vexed His holy Spirit: therefore He (God) was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them."
Can one vex God or His Power?
Isa 40:13: "Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counselor has taught him?"
Isaiah 40:13 should tell you that the Spirit of YHWH is Him.
The only difference between Christians and Jews on the Holy Spirit is the statement in theology. Christians speak about the theology but Jews wouldn't discuss it.
No sir Your claim is that the Holy Spirit is Angel Gabriel!
This is blasphemous both to the Jews and Christians.
Mt 12:31-32: "Because of this, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven to men except the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit; that shall not be forgiven to men. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in the coming age."
Do you think Jesus alludes that the Holy Spirit is Jibril?
Unfortunately, FREEWILL doesn't exist in Islam (except with you contemporary Muslims)
Don't you believe in Al-Qadar again?
Your doctrine is that Allah had decided everything a man will do here on earth.
If you disagree, then I will make my next post on Al-Qadr and you will see how problematic it is.
Freewill doesn't exist in Islamic theology except with you modern Muslims. However, You try to separate Allah's power for creation (kunfayakun) from Allah's power over things he has created but this is NOT correct.
Let me give you an example in the Bible. When God would create the plants, He spoke to the Earth to bring forth vegetations.
Gen 1:11-12: "And God said, “Let the earth bring forth vegetation— the herb yielding seed and the fruit tree producing fruit after its kind, whose seed is in itself— upon the earth.” And it was so. And the earth brought forth vegetation— the herb yielding seed after its kind, and the tree producing fruit after its kind, whose seed is in itself. And God saw that it was good."
Now, just like the Earth , God commands humans but we chose to disobey Him.
Ordinarily, this SIN has no forgiveness except that God loves us human beings even with our failures. This was why God prepared a RANSOM and SACRIFICE for us so that the one who can trust his/her life to God's solution will not perish but have his eternal life with God in paradise.
Okay!
I am well and You? Thanks for asking.
Not to prolong this thread you actually spur to end earlier the following just should be said.
The earth does not possess free will in the same way that mankind does. While humans can make moral choices impacting their lives and surroundings, the earth operates under God’s established laws without conscious decision-making capabilities.
From your scripture the earth operates according to physical laws established by God at creation (Genesis 1:1-31). These laws govern natural phenomena such as gravity, weather patterns, and geological processes.
From a theological perspective, while humans have been given dominion over the earth (Genesis 1:26-28) and are responsible for its stewardship, this does not equate to the earth having free will. Instead, it suggests that humans have a role in caring for creation within the parameters set by God.
Then Qadar (predestination) and free will are both important aspects of belief. Qadar refers to Allah's decree and knowledge of all events, both good and bad, before they happen. It is an essential part of our faith to understand that Allah is the ultimate Planner and Controller of all things.
On the other hand, free will refers to the ability of humans to make choices and decisions. Allah has granted us free will, allowing us to choose our actions and take responsibility for them. We have the freedom to make choices, but Allah, being All-Knowing and All-Powerful, already knows what choices we will make.
When it comes to reconciling Qadar and free will, it is important to recognize that our understanding is limited. Allah's knowledge is beyond our comprehension, and He knows our choices without interfering with our ability to make them. We are accountable for our actions and will be judged based on our intentions and deeds.
Islam teaches us to strive for what is good, make wise choices, and seek guidance.
TenQ: The three oldest manuscripts of the Qurans are 1. Birmingham Quran Manuscript Year Written: c.568 AD – 645 AD The Birmingham Quran Manuscript contains parts of Surah 18 (Al-Kahf), Surah 19 (Maryam), and Surah 20 (Ta-Ha). The manuscript is comprised of two parchment leaves and includes text from these specific surahs. 2. Tübingen Fragment Year Written: c. 649 AD – 675 AD The Tubingen Quran contains portions of 11 surahs. 3. Sana’a Manuscript Year Written: c.671 AD The Sana’a manuscript includes fragments and parts of approximately 40 different surahs. The lower text (the original writing that was later erased and overwritten) of the palimpsest contains fragments from several surahs, while the upper text (the later writing) also includes portions of many surahs. The top Quran was dated to the late 7th century to early 8th century while the lower original text which was overwritten was about 671 AD.
Work on restoration and translation of the lower Quran texts were done in five Universities Albrecht Noth (University of Hamburg) Gerd R. Puin (University of Saarland) Hans-Caspar Graf von Bothmer (University of Saarland) Behnam Sadeghi (Professor of Islamic Studies at Stanford University) and Mohsen Goudarzi (PhD student at Harvard University).
Muslims have always insisted that there is no iota of differences between the Quran of Mohammed and the current Quran that we currently use (the Hafs Quran)
I am going to present evidences from the TRANSLATION according to the team at Stanford University without saying much on them (afterall, I am not an Arabic scholar)
Question: 1. Which one of the current Quran is the Quran of Allah on the tablet in heaven? 2. How come the Sanaa Quran is different from the standard Qurans in many verses? 3. Why did Muslim scholars tell white lies on the preservation of the Quran?
Enjoy and understand that any manuscript variant that conflicts with Uthmanic and isn't corroborated by something found in the literature should be assumed to be a scribal mistake.
In the 1 case of the numerous sheets you should understand this was the work of a student.
1. Islam doesn't depends and claim to build on the prophets from earlier scriptures in the context you have as to some degree the narrations though similar have some slight difference.
2. There is no previous scripture that claimed verbatim speech of God.
The Torah in tablet form given to Moses is directly from God or isn't it and should not be confused with further explanations of the priests that make it up. These explanation are elucidation of the core of what was given in the primary tablet or weren't they?
3. The style of writing of the Qur'an is completely different from the earlier scriptures.
Perhaps due to place, people and time differences however the core to reverence a primary supreme being is common and all other things stem from this.
4. The errors you refer to are perceptional and it is not worthy going into a merry go round about it.
5. There is NOT one evidence apart from the claim of Mohammed that he was visited by Jibril or got any information from God.
Perhaps his knowledge of things centuries before his time doesn't suffice you or other reports such as when Jibril ra came to him in the presence of his companions to ask questions are not sufficient for you.
His seclusion in the cave during his retreat from Mecca to Medina too is another. However one who isn't inclined to believe will write everything off and this is fine.
6. You have been informed and are well aware that Mutah didn't originate under prophet Muhammad pbuh but was forbidden by him besides there are somewhat similar tales of similar practice in the old testament. Perhaps if you look openly at levirage and concubinage marriages or temporary marriages as in the case of Ruth and Boazl as well as other cultural practices.
7. You certainly claim prophet Muhammad pbuh had no miracles associated with his person. Do we start with the abundance that came upon his wet nurse, the splitting of the moon, water flowing from his hands, the crying tree trunk? In any case magicians too can create a semblance of a miracle and Islamic belief places less emphasis on miracles. Did people of old not stick to disbelief despite seeing numerous miracles?
8. Allah spoke to prophet Muhammad pbuh by other means aside revelation through Jibril.
9. Well human ways are not the ways of God and specifically to abolish the wrong in exaggerating non blood ties.
10. The beauty of Surah Fatima is beyond you where Allah as an honour to man divides it's value between himself and mankind?
Besides it's more befitting than reducing the almighty to a form that can be physically wrestled with by his creation as the case of Jacob in your Bible narrative.
I agree with you as the name of their God isn't Allah and they don't even recognise Mohammed as a prophet No problems my friend.
We can actually wrap this up 'cause I want to know your true and honest opinions wrt the Sanaa Qur'an, the Warsh Qur'an wrt the Hafs Qur'an AND the standard Islamic narrative that the Qur'an is perfectly preserved as the copy of the Qur'an of Allah up to the diacritical marks.
Have a fruitful rest of the day!
There are one too many arguments on this thread and it really doesn't matter.
Christianity, Islam and Judaism have divergent views on the Holy spirit and many other issues.
In Christianity, the Holy Spirit is considered the third person of the Trinity, which includes God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit. This doctrine emphasizes that all three persons are distinct yet fully and equally God, sharing one divine essence.
Judaism recognises the divine presence often referred to as the spirit of God but it does not equate this spirit with a distinct person or entity as seen in Christian theology. Instead, Jewish thought generally views God’s spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) as an expression of God’s power or influence rather than a separate being.
Islam has the Holy spirit as primarily associated with divine revelation and guidance.
Now you make a comment regarding sin and the command of God but forget to include the principle of free will with it. This however is within the limits of your understanding and is very much ok for you.
There are things strictly subjected to God's command and things where the innate desire is allowed according to God's wisdom. Angels are strictly compliant to the command while mankind and jinn (not an acceptable creation in Christianity) have free will.
Kun fayakum which translates to Be, and it is, encapsulates the concept of God’s supreme creative power in Islam. This divine command signifies that when Allah wills something to exist, it comes into being instantaneously. However, this notion of divine will coexists with the concept of free will granted to both mankind and jinns, allowing them the freedom to choose their paths.
Allah’s omnipotence is absolute; He has the authority over all creation. The phrase “Kun fayakum” illustrates how Allah can create or alter reality at His command. Yet, within this framework of divine sovereignty lies the essential belief that humans and jinns possess free will. This means they are accountable for their choices, whether they choose to believe or disbelieve, obey or disobey.
There is no need seeking infallible proof that Mary bore other children other than Jesus
TenQ: The three oldest manuscripts of the Qurans are 1. Birmingham Quran Manuscript Year Written: c.568 AD – 645 AD The Birmingham Quran Manuscript contains parts of Surah 18 (Al-Kahf), Surah 19 (Maryam), and Surah 20 (Ta-Ha). The manuscript is comprised of two parchment leaves and includes text from these specific surahs. 2. Tübingen Fragment Year Written: c. 649 AD – 675 AD The Tubingen Quran contains portions of 11 surahs. 3. Sana’a Manuscript Year Written: c.671 AD The Sana’a manuscript includes fragments and parts of approximately 40 different surahs. The lower text (the original writing that was later erased and overwritten) of the palimpsest contains fragments from several surahs, while the upper text (the later writing) also includes portions of many surahs. The top Quran was dated to the late 7th century to early 8th century while the lower original text which was overwritten was about 671 AD.
Work on restoration and translation of the lower Quran texts were done in five Universities Albrecht Noth (University of Hamburg) Gerd R. Puin (University of Saarland) Hans-Caspar Graf von Bothmer (University of Saarland) Behnam Sadeghi (Professor of Islamic Studies at Stanford University) and Mohsen Goudarzi (PhD student at Harvard University).
Muslims have always insisted that there is no iota of differences between the Quran of Mohammed and the current Quran that we currently use (the Hafs Quran)
I am going to present evidences from the TRANSLATION according to the team at Stanford University without saying much on them (afterall, I am not an Arabic scholar)
Question: 1. Which one of the current Quran is the Quran of Allah on the tablet in heaven? 2. How come the Sanaa Quran is different from the standard Qurans in many verses? 3. Why did Muslim scholars tell white lies on the preservation of the Quran?
Realistically there is the fundamental flaw with your argument. It is not stated anywhere that the Uthmani codec or standardised form of the Quran is the sole form in which the revelation came. The existence of other forms or codices are known.
The Uthmani codex refers to the standardized version of the Quran that was compiled during the caliphate of Uthman ibn Affan, the third caliph of Islam, around 650 CE. This codex is significant because it aimed to unify the various recitations and written forms of the Quran that existed at that time.
While the Uthmani codex became widely accepted and is considered canonical in Sunni Islam, other codices also exist. For example, there are notable variants like those attributed to Ibn Mas’ud and Ubayy ibn Ka’b. These variations often pertain to differences in recitation styles (qira’at) or minor textual differences but do not fundamentally alter the core message or teachings of Islam.
Despite recognizing that other codices exist, all known versions ultimately trace back to a common source—the revelations received by Prophet Muhammad. The differences found among various readings are generally seen as minor and do not detract from their authenticity or from believers’ faith in their divine origin.
The recognition of the Uthmani codex does not imply any deficiency in preserving or maintaining consistency within the Quranic text.
We will discuss the specific variations you have shared in picture form in due course.
We are still not done with the other thread though you rather end it with no less than four questions not addressed. Bare with me as I have explained the absence of adequate time to fully respond to you.
It is easy to judge. Who should be the best and most accurate between Ibn Abbas and Zakir Naik as a historical source about prophet Mohammed?
Can my report on Mohammed be more accurate than report from Aisha?
This is the crux of the whole matter: There is no iota of evidence to believe that Allah gave the Qur'an to Mohammed. Every evidence shows that the Qur'an is the writing of 6th century people feigning spiritual authority. 1. Islam depends and claim to build on the prophets from earlier scriptures 2. There is no previous scripture that claimed verbatim speech of God 3. The style of writing of the Qur'an is completely different from the earlier scriptures 4. Errors that cannot possibly come from God exist in the Qur'an (Scientific, Mathematical, Historical etc) 5. There is NOT one evidence apart from the claim of Mohammed that he was visited by Jibril or got any information from God 6. Characters alien to the God of the earlier scriptures are present in the Qur'an such as Halal prostitution (Mutah) and Halal love-vendor business for Muslim men. 7. Usually, the God of the scriptures before Islam would authenticate His prophets with Signs such as Miracles or Prophecies for which Mohammed wasn't given any. 8. Usually the God of the earlier scriptures spoke directly or by inspiration to their prophets and not through Angels unlike Mohammed. 9. The Character of Mohammed is terrible as a human being not to speak of a prophet. A man that can marry the wife of his adopted son is not respectable even in this perverse generation 10. The author feigning to be Allah often forget that he is supposed to be speaking in first person. Surah Al-Fathia is a good example.
No problem! I agree with you.
Even you Muslims do exactly that . Eg. -Allah says pray three times a day, you pray five times -Allah says do Mutah, you made Mutah haram -Allah says the The Jews and Christians take their Rabbis and Monks as Lords instead of Allah AND the Messiah you say no -Allah says he and his angels pray on Mohammed, you say no that he didn't say that Just a few of what you Muslims do on your Qur'an.
Pardon my being deeply in other primary engagements that spare too little time to engage more with you now. I will be with you in a fortnight at most hopefully.
However note that he rabbis of Judaism make their statement about the Torah independent of Allah and the Quran.
Ohyoudidnt: Looking to additional historical finding, is Iraeneus in his book Against Heresies lying where he presents Ezra as an essential figure who restored and preserved Jewish law through divine inspiration after it had been lost or corrupted during exile?
Will continue later please...
Many rabbi priests recognize that as Judaism evolved, changes were introduced into the Torah wording for a myriad of reasons The eighteen alterations of Scripture, listed in the classic work Ochlah W’Ochlah
TenQ: Irenaeus was born around 130 AD and died around 202 AD while Ezra existed about 458 BC. The gap between them is 637 years.
Thus without other historical source dating to closer to the time of Ezra, such information you gave (if true) is valueless as a historical source. This is why Ibn Abbas would be a better historical source about Mohammed than Zakir Naik.
Almost all we know about Ezra are in two ancient historical books of Ezra and Nehemiah and neither remotely gave any hint of him restoring the Torah. Ezra read and explained the Torah to the people, he did not write the Torah.
BUT If (for the sake of argument) let's say your claim is true, then 1. If Ezra did his job perfectly and reproduced the Torah accurately, then Allah in the Qur'an is accurate about confirming the Torah 2. If Ezra did his job imperfectly and reproduced the Torah inaccurately, then Allah in the Qur'an is inaccurate and in error about confirming the Torah.
To confirm a book is to attest to the accuracy and validity of that book.
Going by your submissions on years when persons existed are you implying it is impossible to authenticate information due to large time difference between them?
Do you submit that there was absolutely no means to investigate and validate?
Allah making reference to a Torah is the original given to Moses or you think Allah is not aware of all things that happan?
As I had submitted in a previous post distortion isn't just restricted to textual variations but also includes implementation as the Jewish <priests > attempted to do in hiding a part of the law.
TenQ: No sir. He read the Torah and the prophets and explained them to the people. Neh 8:1-8 "And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spoke to Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel. And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, on the first day of the seventh month. And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive to the book of the law. And Ezra the scribe stood on a pulpit of wood, which they had made for the purpose; and beside him stood Mattithiah, and Shema, and Anaiah, and Urijah, and Hilkiah, and Maaseiah, on his right hand; and on his left hand, Pedaiah, and Mishael, and Malchiah, and Hashum, and Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam. And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people; ) and when he opened it, all the people stood up: And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground. Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place. So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading."
Ezra played a role in rebuilding the destroyed temple. Ezra is not even regarded as a Prophet whether minor or major .
Ezra was an ordinary Priest who helped to interpret the scripture.
The scriptures of the Jews were never transmitted orally like the Qur'an. They were always written. People memorised parts of it but it was always about the written scriptures.
Deu 17:18-19 "And it shall be, when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites: And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:"
Who told you that the Torah was lost that necessitated it to be reproduced from memory? It never ever happened sir: it is at best a wishful thinking by you.
Are you admitting that this was what happened when the Qur'an of Mohammed and that of Abubaker and also that of Uthman disappeared?
Looking to additional historical finding, is Iraeneus in his book Against Heresies lying where he presents Ezra as an essential figure who restored and preserved Jewish law through divine inspiration after it had been lost or corrupted during exile?
Meaning that the written law was properly stated but the full intent was undisclosed to those without the book.
Even you agree that they covered the text of the Torah and NOT that they rewrote their Torah.
1. The prophet himself couldn't read
2. One who could read but had incomplete recall of the law could be deceived.
Concealment of the law refers to the act of intentionally withholding or hiding legal information that is relevant to a case or situation.
It amounts to fraudulent concealment when an individual hides information with the intent to deceive another party.
Distortion of the law, on the other hand, involves altering or misrepresenting legal principles or facts to serve a particular agenda.
Now was the law misrepresented when it was concealed?
In Surah Al-Ma’idah, verse 13, the term تَحْرِيف (tahrif) refers to the act of distorting or altering the words of the Scripture. This distortion can involve changing the meanings of the texts or taking them out of their proper context. The verse highlights that due to their breach of covenant, certain groups have engaged in this manipulation, leading to a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of divine guidance.
The concept of distortion in Islam is not limited to textual changes; it also encompasses broader theological implications regarding faith and practice within Islam. It serves as a warning against altering divine messages and emphasizes the importance of preserving authenticity in religious teachings.
TenQ: Then the doctored Torah was magically restored when someone else read it?
SMH!
Did you not ask me to post the Sanaa Vs Hafs Qur'an?
You are definitely scared!
Have a nice day
If we may work towards concluding here.
We find a critical moment wherethe Israelites have expressed their lack of faith and trust in God’s promises. After sending spies into Canaan, they received a report that filled them with fear and doubt about entering the Promised Land. This led to widespread rebellion against Moses and Aaron, as well as against God Himself.
They doubted God’s ability to deliver them into Canaan despite witnessing numerous miracles during their exodus from Egypt. Their complaints included wishing they had died in Egypt or in the wilderness rather than facing what they perceived as insurmountable challenges in Canaan (Numbers 14:2-4).
Following the prayer of Moses; God responds favorably to Moses’ plea by affirming that He has forgiven them but also reiterates that those who rebelled will not enter the Promised Land (Numbers 14:20-23).
Do you not see that those who will not enter are those that persistently disbelieve in God and his power? Of what use is God's forgiveness for unbelievers.
While you answer can you explain the perceived view of what the Jews attempted to do in hiding the part of the Torah on stoning?
A simple statement like: If (for instance) the Qur'an says, "Allah eat food and drank water!"
You will say: No! It doesn't say that! You don't know Arabic!
You will then say everything except what the plain text is truly saying.
This is my issue with you
Your observation is noted though you pick your own example to illustrate perhaps you could have made an exact reference.
Not to engage in futility I ask what it means when the Jews mentioned lighter punishment and cover the text in the Torah saying the punishment due to the fornicator according to the Torah?
My life is not centred on discussing with you on nairaland.
We cannot conclude the other thread without exactly agreeing can we or agreeing to perpetually disagree which I won't subscribe to without putting good response to your misunderstanding.
I am very bemused. Be patient please. I take it one at a time. The fuss in the images you attached are very funny so in time we will address the humour
Is he the one the Jews say is the son of Allah according to the Qur'an?
Ohyoudidnt: When you speak of a document and leave out parts of it what is written what is it called?
When a document is written based on what you say haven omitted some parts what will this be?
Do you not know about Ezra rewriting the Torah from memory?
Did Ezra play any role is restoring the Torah?
Was the Torah commonly transmitted orally?
Could any other person supposed to know the Torah not dictate the Torah when it's hard copy was lost?
Do answer and respond to my quote quoted in relation to
Ohyoudidnt: The response from the Jews—that they would disgrace and flog the offenders—indicates an attempt to downplay or alter what they believed was a more severe punishment prescribed by their own religious texts.
Tell me if the process where the jew placed his hand to cover a part of the Torah wasn't an attempt to hide the complete ruling/guidance is not a form of distortion?
distort verb [T] (AFFECT)
to change something so that it is false or wrong, or no longer means what it was intended to mean
to change or affect something, especially in a way that makes it worse
By hiding away from view a part of the law does it have any effect on the law?
Indeed I am just noticing this on seeing Everyday247s mention.
In due course it will be addressed once you confirm that discussions are completed at
TenQ: Islam is a compendium of contradictions and confusion. Most Muslims do not seem to be aware that their Religion is not according to either Allah or Mohammed but according to the consensus of their Scholars.
The Jews came to ask Mohammed a simple question about the Spirit (as every prophet of old relates with God as a Spirit). If indeed Mohammed is a prophet like Moses, Isaiah or Jeremiah, he must know about the Spirit of God . Thus, they asked prophet Mohammad about a question he should know the answer as a prophet. "What about the spirit?"
Enter the Islamic Confusion: What is a Spirit? 1. Mohammed doesn't know and Allah too seems not to know Qur'an 17:85 They are asking thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been given but little.
The direct question of the Jews wasn't answered by Allah.
2. However, Muslim scholars seem to know what the Spirit is: They say that the spirit is an Angel called Jibril!
You will notice I have only responded to a part of your response in a bid to clarify your misunderstanding the hadith and Quran verses in context regarding reference to former scripture.
TenQ: Two things 1. Allah's word is worthless in the light of what Muslims want to believe. Why do you think Allah will confirm a scripture that has been doctored? 2. Did the hadith say that the Jews changed their scripture to remove "stoning" or they orally concealed the command of stoning?
The response from the Jews—that they would disgrace and flog the offenders—indicates an attempt to downplay or alter what they believed was a more severe punishment prescribed by their own religious texts.
TenQ: Sometimes I wonder if the person behind the keyboard is dumb or irresponsibly stupid to discard the words of his Allah and prophet so swiftly
Let us assume for the sake of argument that the Jews distorted their scripture? According to the hadith of your prophet below, how: is it by rewriting their scripture? Sunan Abi Dawud 4446 Ibn ‘Umar said: some jews came to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and mentioned to him that a man and a women of their number had committed fornication. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) asked them: What do you find in the Torah about stoning? They replied: We disgrace them and they should be flogged. ‘Abd Allah b. Salam said: You lie; it contains (instruction for) stoning. So they brought the Torah and spread it out, and one of them put his hand over the verse of stoning and read what preceded it and what followed it. ‘Abd Allah b. Salam said to him: Lift your hand. When he did so, the verse of stoning was seen to be in it. They then said: He has spoken the truth, Muhammad, the verse of stoning is in it. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) then gave command regarding them, and they were stoned to death. ‘Abd Allah b. ‘Umar said: I saw the man leaning on the woman protecting her from the stones.
Tell me if the process where the jew placed his hand to cover a part of the Torah wasn't an attempt to hide the complete ruling/guidance is not a form of distortion?
distort verb [T] (AFFECT)
to change something so that it is false or wrong, or no longer means what it was intended to mean
to change or affect something, especially in a way that makes it worse
By hiding away from view a part of the law does it have any effect on the law?
Allah is extremely far from wrong. You are severely wrong.
It is appropriate to make some effort to clarify your misunderstanding.
In Quran Surah 7: 155. And Moses chose from his people seventy men for Our appointment. When the tremor shook them, he said, “My Lord, had You willed, You could have destroyed them before, and me too. Will you destroy us for what the fools among us have done? This is but Your test—with it You misguide whomever You will, and guide whomever You will. You are our Protector, so forgive us, and have mercy on us. You are the Best of Forgivers.”
156. “And inscribe for us goodness in this world, and in the Hereafter. We have turned to You.” He said, “My punishment—I inflict it upon whomever I will, but My mercy encompasses all things. I will specify it for those who act righteously and practice regular charity, and those who believe in Our signs.”
157. Those who follow the Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel in their possession. He directs them to righteousness, and deters them from evil, and allows for them all good things, and prohibits for them wickedness, and unloads the burdens and the shackles that are upon them. Those who believe in him, and respect him, and support him, and follow the light that came down with him—these are the successful
You read mention of those who follow the unlettered prophet whom they find mentioned in the Torah. These are those who find and acknowledge the mention in the Torah.
In this hadith, Ibn ‘Umar recounts an incident where some Jews approached the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) to discuss a case of fornication involving one man and one woman from their community. The Prophet’s inquiry about what their scriptures dictated regarding stoning reveals his role as a mediator and judge in matters of law. The response from the Jews—that they would disgrace and flog the offenders—indicates an attempt to downplay or alter what they believed was a more severe punishment prescribed by their own religious texts.
Abd Allah b. Salam, who was a prominent Jewish convert to Islam, intervened by assersting that the Torah indeed contained instructions for stoning as punishment for adultery. His statement highlights two critical points: first, that there was an existing scriptural basis for stoning within Jewish law; second, it underscores his commitment to truthfulness and justice in contrast to what he perceived as dishonesty from his former co-religionists.
The act described where one of the Jews covered up the verse on stoning while reading from the Torah illustrates an intentional distortion or manipulation of their sacred text. This behavior raises questions about integrity and adherence to divine commandments among those who claim to follow them. It also serves as a commentary on how individuals may selectively interpret or present religious texts to suit their agendas.
Then in Quran 2: 40. O Children of Israel! Remember My blessings which I bestowed upon you, and fulfill your pledge to Me, and I will fulfill My pledge to you, and fear Me. 41. And believe in what I revealed, confirming what is with you; and do not be the first to deny it; and do not exchange My revelations for a small price; and be conscious of Me. 42. And do not mix truth with falsehood, and do not conceal the truth while you know.
Do you not see what is said in the verse following Quran 2:41 that you quoted not mixing truth with falsehood and concealing the truth while they know from 2:42??. Refer back to the attempt to conceal by covering with the hand at saying otherwise.
Does Quran 2:89 89. And when a scripture came to them from God, confirming what they have—although previously they were seeking victory against those who disbelieved—but when there came to them what they recognized, they disbelieved in it. So God’s curse is upon the disbelievers.
Despite knowing they disbelieve.
Then 101. And when there came to them a messenger from God, confirming what they had, a faction of those who were given the Book threw the Book of God behind their backs, as if they do not know.
102. And they followed what the devils taught during the reign of Solomon. It was not Solomon who disbelieved, but it was the devils who disbelieved. They taught the people witchcraft and what was revealed in Babylon to the two angels Harut and Marut. They did not teach anybody until they had said, “We are a test, so do not lose faith.” But they learned from them the means to cause separation between man and his wife. But they cannot harm anyone except with God's permission. And they learned what would harm them and not benefit them. Yet they knew that whoever deals in it will have no share in the Hereafter. Miserable is what they sold their souls for, if they only knew.
You clearly see that some of of those who were given the book threw the Book of God behind their backs, as if they do not know.
I believe you understand what is meant by throwing the Book behind their backs means in this verse. It means disbelieving.
TenQ: Sometimes I wonder if the person behind the keyboard is dumb or irresponsibly stupid to discard the words of his Allah and prophet so swiftly
Let us assume for the sake of argument that the Jews distorted their scripture? According to the hadith of your prophet below, how: is it by rewriting their scripture? Sunan Abi Dawud 4446 Ibn ‘Umar said: some jews came to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and mentioned to him that a man and a women of their number had committed fornication. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) asked them: What do you find in the Torah about stoning? They replied: We disgrace them and they should be flogged. ‘Abd Allah b. Salam said: You lie; it contains (instruction for) stoning. So they brought the Torah and spread it out, and one of them put his hand over the verse of stoning and read what preceded it and what followed it. ‘Abd Allah b. Salam said to him: Lift your hand. When he did so, the verse of stoning was seen to be in it. They then said: He has spoken the truth, Muhammad, the verse of stoning is in it. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) then gave command regarding them, and they were stoned to death. ‘Abd Allah b. ‘Umar said: I saw the man leaning on the woman protecting her from the stones.
Secondly, you accuse your Allah of Ignorance as you know better than him as Allah says Qur'an 7:157 Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful.
Qur'an 2:41 And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.
Qur'an 2:89 And when there cometh unto them a scripture from Allah, confirming that in their possession - though before that they were asking for a signal triumph over those who disbelieved - and when there cometh unto them that which they know (to be the truth) they disbelieve therein. The curse of Allah is on disbelievers.
Qur'an 2:101 And when there cometh unto them a messenger from Allah, confirming that which they possess, a party of those who have received the Scripture fling the Scripture of Allah behind their backs as if they knew not,
Please confirm that Allah is wrong with these passages above !?
Allah is extremely far from wrong. You are severely wrong.
It is appropriate to make some effort to clarify your misunderstanding.
In Quran Surah 7: 155. And Moses chose from his people seventy men for Our appointment. When the tremor shook them, he said, “My Lord, had You willed, You could have destroyed them before, and me too. Will you destroy us for what the fools among us have done? This is but Your test—with it You misguide whomever You will, and guide whomever You will. You are our Protector, so forgive us, and have mercy on us. You are the Best of Forgivers.”
156. “And inscribe for us goodness in this world, and in the Hereafter. We have turned to You.” He said, “My punishment—I inflict it upon whomever I will, but My mercy encompasses all things. I will specify it for those who act righteously and practice regular charity, and those who believe in Our signs.”
157. Those who follow the Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel in their possession. He directs them to righteousness, and deters them from evil, and allows for them all good things, and prohibits for them wickedness, and unloads the burdens and the shackles that are upon them. Those who believe in him, and respect him, and support him, and follow the light that came down with him—these are the successful
You read mention of those who follow the unlettered prophet whom they find mentioned in the Torah. These are those who find and acknowledge the mention in the Torah.
Now let’s review the hadith. The hadith in question, recorded in Sunan Abi Dawud, presents a significant interaction between the Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) and a group of Jews regarding the punishment for fornication as prescribed in their scripture, the Torah.
In this hadith, Ibn ‘Umar recounts an incident where some Jews approached the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) to discuss a case of fornication involving one man and one woman from their community. The Prophet’s inquiry about what their scriptures dictated regarding stoning reveals his role as a mediator and judge in matters of law. The response from the Jews—that they would disgrace and flog the offenders—indicates an attempt to downplay or alter what they believed was a more severe punishment prescribed by their own religious texts.
Abd Allah b. Salam, who was a prominent Jewish convert to Islam, intervened by assersting that the Torah indeed contained instructions for stoning as punishment for adultery. His statement highlights two critical points: first, that there was an existing scriptural basis for stoning within Jewish law; second, it underscores his commitment to truthfulness and justice in contrast to what he perceived as dishonesty from his former co-religionists.
The act described where one of the Jews covered up the verse on stoning while reading from the Torah illustrates an intentional distortion or manipulation of their sacred text. This behavior raises questions about integrity and adherence to divine commandments among those who claim to follow them. It also serves as a commentary on how individuals may selectively interpret or present religious texts to suit their agendas.
Then in Quran 2: 40. O Children of Israel! Remember My blessings which I bestowed upon you, and fulfill your pledge to Me, and I will fulfill My pledge to you, and fear Me. 41. And believe in what I revealed, confirming what is with you; and do not be the first to deny it; and do not exchange My revelations for a small price; and be conscious of Me. 42. And do not mix truth with falsehood, and do not conceal the truth while you know.
Do you not see what is said in the verse following Quran 2:41 that you quoted not mixing truth with falsehood and concealing the truth while they know from 2:42??. Refer back to the attempt to conceal by covering with the hand at saying otherwise.
Does Quran 2:89 89. And when a scripture came to them from God, confirming what they have—although previously they were seeking victory against those who disbelieved—but when there came to them what they recognized, they disbelieved in it. So God’s curse is upon the disbelievers.
Despite knowing they disbelieve.
Then 101. And when there came to them a messenger from God, confirming what they had, a faction of those who were given the Book threw the Book of God behind their backs, as if they do not know. 102. And they followed what the devils taught during the reign of Solomon. It was not Solomon who disbelieved, but it was the devils who disbelieved. They taught the people witchcraft and what was revealed in Babylon to the two angels Harut and Marut. They did not teach anybody until they had said, “We are a test, so do not lose faith.” But they learned from them the means to cause separation between man and his wife. But they cannot harm anyone except with God's permission. And they learned what would harm them and not benefit them. Yet they knew that whoever deals in it will have no share in the Hereafter. Miserable is what they sold their souls for, if they only knew.
You clearly see that some of of those who were given the book threw the Book of God behind their backs, as if they do not know.
I believe you understand what is meant by throwing the Book behind their backs means in this verse. It means disbelieving.
Christianity Etc › Re: Evidence That Ancient Qurans Are Different From Modern Qurans by Ohyoudidnt: 6:15am On Aug 05, 2024
