₦airaland Forum

@4Him: You can do better than all your posts above. You are the one who should be concerned that you are dealing with a book contradicting itself all over the places!

@Uchkochi;

Whether you like it or not God is your creator, He is your manufacturer and you are his product,Just like you can't store drinks in your television and watch programmes with your refrigerator so also you cannot determine your purpose or destiny you can on ly discover it.And the best way to do that is by Going back to the manufacturer God through Jesus Christ

Thank God that you differentiate God from Jesus. But I wonder how it was possible that God Almighty was capable of saving people throughout the ages before Jesus? Take the great salvation under Moses, for example. And even before that, the saving and ransoming of the son of Ibrahim (as) from being slaughtered! What was the role of Jesus in these major situations without even going to Noah's major event?

@M_Nwankwo:

@cgift
Thanks for your contribution. There is nothing secret in my submission. Evolution did not bring about itself, that is God actually created evolution and therein lies my point. God created both the human spirit or "soul" and the human body. If God created evolution, while will it be hard to a believer to see that the process of evolution is fufilling the WILL of the creator. Today a fusion of male and female gamete results in the development of the physical body and yet that does not make the couple the creator of the baby since God has already given the sperm and the egg the capability to develop on fusion into a human body. It is in that sense that you should see the coming into being of the human body. The principle of the evolution with respect to the physical human body is correct but it is not yet possible for any body to unravel the various individual stages and time points. Science cannot do that since it observers the PROCESS but not the FORCE that gave rise to the process. Since God, created evolution, only God can reveal the precise individual process, the time points, the transition animals etc. These things rest in the omniscience of God but I have no doubt that someday the entire happening will be revealed to man and even science will be forced to acknowllege the beauty and omnisience of God.

M_Nwankwo, you andme must get together, someday and soon. You sound to good to be a Christian, yet you are. But you are inching forward into Is'lam. For example your components, soul or spirit and body that makes a man is on the spot. The fact that you said that Soul or spirit is a creation of God is correct. And finally, 2 days ago, I posted in a thread on nairaland that evolution is a process that is within religious possibility; Afterall it is God that put the process of evolution in place in the birth of a human baby; From fusion of male sperm with female egg. This two matters, by the time the baby is born, would have evolved into something that does not remotely resemble either one of them. Finally, there is no Doctor that cam give the specific time, to the exact second that a baby will be delivered!

Will you please have the courage to read the Qur'an and take your oath of reversion to Is'lam. The best before Is'lam are alsways the best when they enter Is'lam. And by the way, Is'lam is taking roots in Igboland. Will you help in watering it to a healthy vegetation? God will reward you greatly for it.

What is so interesting is that most of the things you believe in, eg Soul meaning Spirit in man is not believed by the Christian and is against Biblical writing. Yet you are correct, and it is what we in Is'lam believe. About Soul or spirit being the creation of God, it is not what Christendom and its book believe, but this is exactly what th Mus'lim and Qur'an say.

I bet the day that you recognise that holy spirit is not more than an Angel and it is Angel Gabreil, and when you realise that Jesus was no more than a Messenger and prophet of God, I am of the believe that you will hurry to become Mus'lim, because trinity will be dead in your heart and there is no doubt that the day will come very quicky for you. You have a good heart and it is ready for guidance.

Stimulus, SysUser, Sincere !, copy M_Nwankwo, in the way he approaches questions; he answers directly with relevant materials. Thats how to dialogue or argue a point.

@Therationa;

How would Noah have transported these animals from their various specialised habitats to the ark in the deserts of the Middle East?

Did these animals come along carrying their very specialised food to last the duration of the flood?

The conditions you deemed impossible which is the basis of your post, is quite easy for God who had created them in the first place. Afterall, we see a lot of medically induced Coma these days. Who tell you that these animals, however natural the enemity of one is to the other and to mankind, it may seem implusible to you, yet I have no problem with it. Afterall God suspends the heavens as a canopy over the earth without a visible pillar. He also make the earth spin without a pivot and nothing physical to us that controls or guide it, but God Almighty is the only Guardian who is capable of all things.

Just the same way that I believe that God descended Adam and his wife from heavens, alive in body and soul and ascended Jesus into heavens, alive in body and soul and ascended and descended Prohet Mustafa from earth to heavens and from heavens back to earth in the same night, the assembly of all that were assembled in the Noah's ark is very easy for God Almighty. He is the Lord God of all thing and he is capable of controlling the conditions of all things.

@Bawomolo:

Quote
Perhaps this also weakly demonstrates how the Uncaused Cause (God) creates beings out of nothingness.

in all honesty, a creator or "first cause" would not be needed if something can come out of nothing.

In all honesty, Bawomolo, you and those who postulate like forget hat your knowledge, and all your senses, regardless of how acute, do not know everything. Therefore your argument that there is no need for a Creator or as you meekly called it, "first cause," is based on your incapability to think in an "Altimate" term or possibility.

Your deficient judgement which produces such ineffective statement above is unconvincing, for if there no abundant proof that such a Creator exists, you will never be trying so hard to disprove Him, while all the while, subconsciously you surpress the urge to be honest about what your soul continues to acknowledge. Your heart must be a very terrible heart!

Could please tell me what was the state of mankind prior to the beginning of atheism and agnotism? Have you heard about the notion of cause and effect and every reaction is based on an action? What action brought a Big Bang reaction of the particle that must have reacted to an action in the first place which brought it to a state of existence, before the second reaction, which was the "explosion," known as the Big Bang? What brought brought about these two primodal action/reaction efects?

1) How did the particle came into existence before the action of Big bang even occurred? What caused the action the action that the nothingness reacted to that all of a sudden the particle came about, into existence? Come to think of it, KAG, this must be the first Virtual particle! Hence, your theory about first virtual particle occurring after Big Bang is a fluke.

2) How did the Big Bang came about on the existing particle? What caused it; What brought the action upon the particle that brought such a reaction?

@4Him:

To ba fe ton eni yon ni o ma nso wipe ki e ni yen faraba le. Nanayisha watch out for my guy here.

Did sysuser put it there himself?

Etiquette lessons? How do we learn that when someone can just fly an aircraft into our office and kill us in the name of your god? Is that your idea of etiquette or shld we learn another?

SysUser is not to be trusted and who knows what he is capable of fabricating? Afterall he did not give us full details so that we can verify directly.

nd about the flying of aircraft into your office, you are still here, aren't you? All the while far away from New York, New York! You live in NYC? Of course not! Further, there are a lot of people who have their own opinions, however diffeent with what is assumed and accepted. There are alsways at least two sides when their are opposite groups.

@4Him:

Sheep? When did that creep into is'lamic language? Does al'lah now regard his slaves as sheep?

Cattle; sheep will have to be from this specie. There is a chapter cattle "the Cattle," in the Qur'an. There is also a verse where the Almighty regarded the disbelievers to be worse than cattles: all the species of Cattles. Then there is a verse where the Almighty says that disbelievers will be herded into the fire of hell like how the herder drives the cattles (sheep), to drinking place or pasture.

@Olowo-Tee;

@Olabo,

I thot the guy said last year

Last year this year, whenever, the guy did not say he was in Nigeria. Based on his record and reputation and his panchant for embellishmenet, that goes for you too, Olowo Tee, I need a little bit of qualification about how he happened to just be at this place of arrest, at the right time and he happened to be a potential, hobbist or professional journalist. Wow, and I do not know if he was in Nigeria anytime last year at all. Is this a case of let me say what I want on the net?

Finally, are there any 'area boys,' in the eastern part of Nigeria (specifically the Igbos, who at the moment are predominantly Christians: Catholic or protestant, is all the same)? How about that, and do we even have any who is a christian? Alhamdulillah Ridwan Ribadu is a Mus'lim.

@Therationa;

Thank Goodness, no-one really follows the advice (with the exception of some mos-lems countries) of this impostor from Nazareth, or we would have millions of amputated, maimed and eyeless individuals walking our streets. And why would they have been amputated or maimed. Well, because they might have sinned (or feared sinning), and following Jesus's recommendation, one should rather remove the organ that caused one to sin than jeopardise one chances of entering heaven. This is what Mark 9: 39 - 40 states;


39 "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me,
40 for whoever is not against us is for us.
41 I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.
44 where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.
46 where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
48where " 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
49 Everyone will be salted with fire.
50"Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with each other."

Why don't we see Christians clamoring for this sort of deterrent for sin? Why are our prisons not filled with amputated, eyeless, brainless individuals? Is there any sense in issuing this advise, if it was not meant literally?

BTW, in these words, Jesus demonstrated just what an ignoramus he was by not recognising that no other organ but the BRAIN is the centre of thoughts, hence the source of sin. Not arms, legs, eyes, belly, gonads, etc, etc. So, more appropriately, he should have advised his followers to remove their brains to avert the possibility of sin.

Even though I completely disagreed with your insulting a prophet of God, I have to agree with you wth you that all that jesus said in terms of Crime and punishment, above, is nothing short of Sharia.

Moses practiced before him and Ahmad the Arabian prophet to all mankind practiced it after him. Jesus had no authority of his own to abolish any part of ordained decree of Al Rahman.

I asked the Christian a very simple question about the punishment for illegal sex, no one of them attempted to explain it. I will now take this opportunity to ask it here and now: If Mosaic law is very specific about illicit sex (flogging for any unmarried person and stoning to death of married persons), taking into consideration that the elders of Israel wanted to pass judgement on the woman they brought to Jesus on accusation of adultery, whereby he saved the woman from the intent to kill her by wisely asked 'whoso ever was without sin should cast the first stone.'

Could anyone therefore attempt to tell me how Mary who was unmarried escape the punishment as the Mosaic law was still in place by the attempt to punish the poor woman in question above in the time of the ministry of Jesus? How was it that the elders of the children of Israel did not even attempt to get a judgement against Mary from Zacharia? And not even an attempt was made by these leadeship to question this young unmarried woman, how she got pregnant and when she delivered the baby, who was the father?

I am going to answer the question right from the Qur'an, when all the Christians would have failed to give any reasonal and possibly explanation, even if they comb through the whole Bible for as long as they can endure to do so before being tired. This lack of critical thinking about many important issues on their part is very erronous.

@Skyone;

last year some group of police men arrested 6 area boys in Mushin and out of curiosity and as a part time journalist i managed to jot down their names for media purpose. Here are their first names:

Jamiu
Kazeem
Ismaila
Tajudeen
Hamed
and
Ibrahim all arrested for insurgence and assault

As soon as i got to Oshodi another arrest surfaced, of course same as to go in my local gazette and whose names are

moshood
rasaki
ibro and musiliu

Am sure Dafidixone must have had same experience and came across similar names;thus concluding of posting this thread.

Enu opuro ki nse je! You live in England, yet you were just there to see these people arrested in Nigeria.

What happened to the 'area boys,' say in the eastern part enclaves of Nigeria? They are all muslims, too? Let me help you. I bet their names are Slyvester Abbass, Clement Hamzah, Daniel Jamal, Vincent Badr, Valentine Abdallah, Festus Idris. Could you please confirm the Islamic area boys major presence in the east specifically? You should be ashamed that you people are this evil. Shame on you. I bet you guys are pure area boys.

@4Him:

Stop whining, go and start your own quranic quiz.

Dave, did you finish your assignment, yet?

I wonder what Camera was used to capture the Images you have above? Since Pinhole camera was developed much, much later? Or who was the renderer, the artist since ther was no drawing or painting of him? As usual you Christian have to lie to justify your position; the same way you lied about god and shamelessly divided Him into sub gods of three distinctive persons and cheapened His authority to mere man who could be killed. And was killed!

I am sure that if I have a 20 year old wife now, who is a graduate of University of Ibadan, people my say that I am with a child! She will be a child alright, except that she is a woman and my wife. Nwando, you here me? This is my kinda taste; young and exotic, and matured with soffistication. I want her to be head and shoulder above the calibre of ordinary woman!

@SysUser;

Moses acted contrary to God's will, by stricking the rock for water, God did not bend His Truth for Moses, instead Moses paid the penalty by not being allowed to enter into the promisedland after leading and labouring all those years in the wilderness,

David committed Murder and Adultery and was punished,

Lot also had the unfortunate occurence of losing everything and ending up sleeping with his daughters to give birth to the children,

What was the punishment of Jesus for praying in the Garden of geshemane, not wanting the cup of death to remain on his head, knowing fully well that he was sent to die for the sins of mankind? What will be his punishment for crying on the cross, asking God why God had forsaken him? Both of these two biblical ideas are according to the Christians, and not that i believe in any of them and also the accusations that you levelled against these prophets, Moses, Lot and David above. If the three of these people were punished for their minor infractions, then how severe or light should be the punishment of Jesus, who knew his fate prior to him coming to fulfill it, yet when it was time to do it, he prayed against it and when it was happening he asked God why God will allow it.

Did you notice that in both conditions of jesus; as he prayed, his prayer was rejected by God and as he asked why he was ignored? All praise belong to Al Rahman Al Rahiim. It is very clear that your Jesus whose prayer was rejected and who was killed by hanging is not the same as my Isa bin Mariam. But I need your response here. My man, you asked for it!

God is no respecter of man , as such the a'llah who respects mo'hammed and allows him to get away with his pedophile ways, murderous ways, adulterous ways etc, certainly cannot be the God of Moses and God of David,

You did not finish your last sentence above. I do not know if there is a universally accepted age for maturity, do you have any idea? Please give me that specific age. A cronological age that will be acceptable to the Children of Israel (the jews who consider 13 years as the age of maturity), to the Americans (Which ranges from state to state, from almost 14 to 18, not counting the consent of the parents), the Aboriginees in Australia, the Bushman of East Africa, the Pigmese of Congo and finally the Nigerian? Would you say it is 18 years or less or according to the cultural acceptance? Now take all of us to 1400 years ago and tell us what the conditions could have been?

I see that Nigerian women of today are somewhat taller in a general sense that those born prior to the independence. Let say the average height for late 70s birth onward is 5ft 7inches, but the preindependence birth are not more than 5ft 6inches. And considering that life expectancy has also changed, it will be possible to expect age of maturity to be higher than when the life expectancy was definitely shorter, say 50 years old in those days. You really should consider all these factors before you penned your piece.

Finally, Aisha (as) was created specifically for the Messenger (as) Afterall, he saw her in dreams, twice as gifts being presented. She was from a noble family, whose father was a close friend to the prophet (as). There is no prohibition from marrying the daughter of your best friend: In yorubaland, some of the children from such union or something similar are named Oredola. She was not forced into marriage because her parents would not have stood idle fo it. (I remember that there is a Chapter in Qur'an title the woman who disputes). Women in Islam during the time of the prophet got their greatest freedom and liberation, so your pedophilia mumbo jumbo does miss the mark! And adulterous was your statement about the prophet? Who did he perform the adultery with? Murderous way you said?

What happened to total annihilations of peoples and city states along the way by Prophet Moses and his people? What about what happened under David and also Solomon? Are these also murderous ways that God accepted or condoned or ordered? Remember that these people even killed off all the animals, the old, sick, young and women (If I were there the woman thing was just too unproductive along with the young; unless God said do it, i would have advised against it: women are the spice of man's life. They are our mothers), and cut down the trees. Some of these actions do not make any economic sense. Afterall, when you settle in the land, you have to gow trees and raise animals. Yet there were ready made resources that were destroyed!

But the Mus'lims did not destoy, livestocks, killed women (they took them as spoil of war) or the Children or the infirmed, or the sick. I wonder which is better; killing and destoying everything that was in front of you or just killing off the combatants? SysUser, go sedon.

Now I find it funny, mischevious, counter-intuitive and devilish that somehow, someone somewhere who does not understand what the truth is, still wants to believe that Christians and M'uslims are serving the same God, despite that evidences show that the god of M'ohammed could certainly not be the god of Moses or David or Elijah or Elisha, since the god of the great prophet:

Afterall we in Islam take it that the Christian believe that there is God, except they splice the god to one god after they have sliced the same god to three! This is the biggest flip flopping that is bigger than the most annoying bathroom flipfloppers. I can't make head or tail from it.

1. allowed him to have sex with a teenager "Aisha"

I will marry an 18 year old teenager if she is matured. Yet i will not marry a thirty something year old childish and immature "Woman." You forgot that Aisha (ra) was his wife and sleeping with your wife is not an adultery. Even in the most sexually restictive society. Could you name a society that disallowed a marriage between a matured man and a teenager whose parents agreed to let her marry as she wishes? Yorubaland?

2. allowed him to commit adultery by sleeping with woman other than his wife (allowed him to institionalise adultery/fornication by permitting them to have 4 wives)

I guess UI women are ghiving you hard time, uh? Now thats fornication, if you engage in it. I guess a lot of us are adulterers by your "Christian" definition. I am in a good company. The company of Ibrahiim, the personal friend of God, Isiaq, Yakuub, Yusuf, Moses, Daud and Sulaiman.

Are you in the company of Jesus? Remember he did not marry, can you copy him to the 'T,' please? This will give a natural death to Christianity very quickly. I am sure you guys are always moving this way and that. You remind me of Stimulus, who was using Greek words, and then wanted to change to aramaic and or Hebrew, whenever Greek is deficient. Where is this guy, this weekend? I guess he is the one in a cubical! No computers for him on weekends, uh? Its the office usage. Go figure.

3. allowing him to not produce a single miracle

I guess the splitting of the moon and bringing it back to whole is not a miracle? The going on a nightly journey to heaven and rerning the same night would not qualify as a miracle? The evading a line of murderers by just recitation of a single verse of surah Yasiiin could not qualify for miracle? Calling a tree to testify as to his prophethood when there was not a single soul that can do it will not qualify as a miracle? A mother fox and her children coming to testify as to his prophethood will not qualify as amiralce? A wolf telling a shephard that there is a prophet in Madina will not qualify as a miracle? Prophesising the victory of Rome over the more equiped Persia will not qualify as a miracle? Tell his Uncle Abu lahab that he will never accepted Islam and the exact way that his wife and him wll die can not be miracles? Curing a person of poison by reciting part of Qur'an can not be miracle? Warding of evil spell by reciting Qur'an can not be miracle? Predicting the future conditions of the Mus'lim, which is happening today can not be miracle?

His feedng his companions with just a little amount of food to start with but fed many and still there was leftover was not a miracle? Water sprouting between his fingers so that people can drink was not a miracle? Or so people can make ablution was not a miracle? I have a ton of those for you. Unfortunately, Mus'lim don't accentuate this part. The Biggest Miracle is the Qur'an itself. Am sure it is not a miracle by your Christian standard! And U have not spoken about the tree stomp that weeps because the prophet did not come leaning against it any longer. And many many others.

4. allowed him to do very stupid things e.g. by claiming that the Sperm comes from the SPinal Cord

You can differentiate between the lower part of the back along with the pelvic from the spiral cord? Nwando and Davidylan, your brother SysUser just killed Medicine, while at it lied, terribly. Whats very apparent is that you know little about sex. After you get married and before your consumation of that marriage, read what the Prophet said. Then wait for a rude awaking and a reality check. Omode nse e.

5. by allowing him to kill people in his (A'llah's) name

Whose name did Moses, David and Solomon killed? Whose name did Jesus healed since he did not kill ayone?

6. by not being able to convert people based on his word alone but rather by allowing conversion by force

I wonder how Abu Bakr converted? I wonder how the would be killer Umar bin Kattab get converted? I wonder how Shuib Al Roma got converted? I wonder how Salma Al Farsi got converted?

7. by making sure that apostates of i'slam are killed,

How about the verse that talks about entry and going out, and reentry and the going out, again? If evryone was killed at the first outing from islam, how was it possible for reentry?

I find it rather dumbfounding that , despite all the evidences against the Character of m'ohammed, the obvious stupidity of the the great book, the obvious stupidity of saying parts of the Hadiths are correct and parts of it is wrong based on whether or not it agrees with the great book, the obvious plagiarism of various ideas into making the the great book, that people still somehow believe that their eternity can be guaranteed via i'slam in any other place other than Lake of Fire.

Your lake of fire is equal to hell or islamic Jahanam? I wonder what you will say about the opposing view verses of many parts of the Bible? Lets just concentrate for a moment on the New Testament. What do you think about Mark 12 verse 29, which completely opposes the possibility tha Jesus could ever be God or part of God or son of god? And yet you guys claim all of these positions for him? Who is lying here Jesus the prophet or you who satrted a movement (christianity), which he never commanded yo to do, sanctioned it or otherwise permitted it? The answer is clear: You must be the ones who are wrong, for Jesus can not lie. It is ironic that you are equating the Bible with the Hadith: And I think you are correct. What book do you equate with the Qur'an? You have no book. No wonder.

I can only say that I pity all those that still wallow in the filth of i'slam, since they have no excuse of not knowing the truth ,
I also pity to those deceived people or devilish individuals who still go about saying the Christians and M'uslims serve the same God.

For how long would "Stupidity continue to abide" when it is obvious that there cannot be "Many Ways to God", but rather THE ONLY ONE WAY,

I wonder what the Jews said when people began to follow Jesus, vis a vis about the only way to God, as the knew it was through Moses? This is how poor your thinking is. The time of Moses came and gone with the advent of Jesus. The time of jesus came and gone with the last link in the chain of prophethood in the person of Ahmad (Mustafa) bin Abdallah of Makka. Deal with it. I think you must now believe that Jahanam is meant for those who disbelief in his prophethood. If you like torture, prepare yourself for it. There will not be a respite when you get there! But you are here now, so you have a chance to change.

One thing is for sure, what is happening now with the great religion, atheism is not really new, it is just a more wicked repetition of things that had being done in the past history of man (Baal, Greek Philosophers etc, )

Alara lo ma ngbe ara e ga. Ediye bere ko to wole A Christian who worships three gods is telling me a Mus'lim who has Only One God the Almighty Al Qalaq Al Rahman Al Rahiim that I am not a believer! To borrow from Mrpataki/pahtahkee, Orisi risi!

Olabowale, MC Usman and co, it is sad to realise that even if you wanted to be saved, (which is not your making, but God's free gift), you are still faced with the possibility of death from your former comrades in arms of is'lam. As such it becomes difficult to actually know the number of actual musl'ims apart from "forced mus'lims" since its near impossible to know those who remain a m'uslim because the fear the penalty of death for being an apostate, to those who remain a mu'slim because the choose to be for personal reasons bordering on foolishness, wealth or deception.

I notice a lot of nonsense that some people keep saying , about the Holy Spirit, I can only pity them because they simple do not know what they are doing and simply because they do not realise that they are sealing their own eternal damnation, and making sure that they may never be forgiven (since they might have sinned against the Holy Spirit) in one of their famous rantings.

Emi Olabowale omo Pakulopa of Ijebuland, eru Olorun Oba, lo nso iso kuso si? Oro rirun. By Al Rahman, I am daiyy of Islam. IshaAllah, many will enter Is'lam through me. Here on nairaland and in other places. My being a Mus'lim is not based on my birth into it. I realised that it is the right path to my Paradise, a Mercy from my Creator. Stop whimpering. Let wait and see who goes to God's Hellfire.

Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Their own mouths (via their hearts) are speaking death unto themselves, knowingly or unknowingly

Quote
Pro 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

This guy can't even tell us the nature of the holy spirit or ghost? You know what it is? Its function, ect? I think it is the holy ghost that impregnated Mary, according to Peter or some other Book of the Bible! 4Him, help out here about that verse where the Angel informed Joseph about Mary's pregnancy in a dream.

Also Catholism has resulted in the killing of a lot Christians and probably non Christians over time , which I believe is a fufillment of the bible prohesy that about "LovePeddler",

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Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great LovePeddler, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Quote
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Is not the Catholic sect that the Protestant sect came out of? Are you denying your mother Catholic Christendom, now

@Bawomolo: I thought you were sincere to dialogue, get to the truth. But I realise that I will be wasting my time responding to you, since you only ask questions, and fail to answer any, yourself. Evidently, you just shut off your ability to think and all you do is treck the path that leads to nowhere. I will not be your partner on that journey.

@Nwando: Since you are not in 'The running' for Olabowale's next exotic bride, have a 'tender heart,', (a trophy wife, like an acutremen) to replace you. I need somebody that I can talk to about Islam. I need to drain Christianity of good people. And women are my idea persons. (LOL). I am not through with Igbo women yet.

@Therationa;

Could it be that they are leaving because they realised it is all falsehood and superstitions?

If it is falsehood and or superstition, I swear by God Almighty I would not have lasted a moment in it. With all the seductions of the Christians women,even with a croony like me, it is the beauty of Islam that attracts be. It is a superior religion with all the sweetness of nectar and the aromatic fragrance of exotic tulips and roses. Finally I fear and run far away from the punishment of the Almighty and I long and hurry forward for His Love, Mercy and Forgiveness.

@Bawomolo;

so adam was born through mystical means. so how did he reproduce?? was eve created. why did God have to wait for something for the structure to cure, he is God, his infinite powers should cure the structure instantly don't u think??

The time of curing of the lifeless Adam, was the time that Shaitan became curious and his hatred of this man Adam and his progenies developed. God knew the true evil nature of Iblis, who later was called Shaitan after he had disobeyed God and and on top of that deceived Adam and his wife, Eve (also created) to eat from the forbidden tree. This process revealed the evilness of Iblis, who became Shaitan (and he was from the Jinn family and not and Angel), while the Angels were there to witness all of the events.

While Adam and his wife Eve (another human creation, but from the rib of Adam), seeked forgiveness from God their Cherishing Lord the Almighty God, Shaitan was arrogant and his heart became very hard. Shaitan boosted to God, (since he had entered the hollow interior of Adam, he knew that mankind was weak and can easily cajole them, by mere suggesting ideas that are of disobedience in nature) that he will make Adam and his progeny disobey Him.

So God accepted the repentance of Adam and his wife and showed His Mercy on them. While Shaitan became obstenant and deceitful and determine in every which way to waylay mankind from doing good: Proper belief and worship and doing good deeds according to ability. Of course, those who follow the footstep of Shaitan will end up in the fire of Hell, and those who struggle against evil and do the right thing will receive the mercy of god and be a dweller of Paradise.

oh ok buster, evolution theory isn't a theory on the origin of live. evolution theory starts after life began. what about evolution do u think is crap by the way??

First, i want to know what brought about the start of life, as you have said above? Do you have a good inkling about what exactly brought it? How did it begin? And since you asked me about what about evolution do i think is crap, I will be sincere in my answer: Everything about evolution is unbelievable or I believe to be crap, except that I believe that the stages that a fetus goes through from fertilization to birth, could be called evolution. What I mean is this take the earliest state of pregnancy process; the fusion of egg and sperm and compare it to just before the baby is born. What you have is a process that involves this thing, egg that is already influenced by sperm to change so many times that in the final stage, you have a fully formed human; yet if you isolate the two extreme stages, as indicated above, they do not remotely resemble each other. This is evolution to me and not your Big Bang effect on the "first" particle that somehow produces humans and other primates, while other parts of the particle still remained so primitive that it just lifeless, and not remotely resembles man. For example Iron or steel and man! This part, the big bang theory is really a fluke and it is unreal. So is the Virtual particle. Unless that you factor in the Master Mover, God Almighty Creator!

@Therationa: We in Is'lam believe that Jesus son of mary, the Messiah of the children of israel, the last prophet from the branch of Isiaq in the bloodline of Ibrahim (as to all of these noble prophets), ascended body and soul to heavens, by the power of his Creator the Almighty God. The exact location is irrelevant to his position with his Lord and those who truly worship God the Lord Almighty! God is capable of doing all things: afterall He created Adam without any prior example and then created Eve from just a part of him. He made both husband and wife descended from heavens, in body and soul!

@Bawomolo:

So how did God create us??

From admixture of soil (samples) taking from many parts of the earth. The different colors were mixed together with the right amount of water. Thats the ingredients of the 'body.' This final product is shaped into the shape of the man, but it has a hollow interior (this hollow interior later contained the organs). The shaped structure is left for some time, so that it is cured properly. God His own will then brought by command (Be and it is!), the soul/spirit to fuse with it. As the soul entered the body (Adam was that product), he gradually came to live.

And when the process was completed, Adam got up, erect, and walked and was in a hurry to begin human activities.

Could you give me your best effort on evolution? Please try. Definitely, you will not have a cogent process, except the usual trickery! At the Christians and the Mus'lims unite on this singular issue, against your Evolutionary camp.

And yet people are tripping over one anoter to enter Is'lam. There is no doubt, a few will have to leave this wonderful religion, because their hearts were never in it or accepted it wholly, in th first place. I remember when I got this young Igbo lawyer to know about Islam. She in almost two years now have been covering up and finally confessed to me that while she was a Christian, wheever she heard the call to prayer, she began angry and upset with developed headache. And seeing a person performing ablution to enter prayer, she will be itchy as if her skin is crawling with some thing terrible. Today she is a better Muslim woman. Yet she is a princess from Owerri. May God increase you, and make your way easy. Amin.

@Therationa: These arabs have their own condition to deal with. Its their freedom of speech that they are exercising. But that just did not say to us that they are right. You know right when you see it. Your heart will let you know it, and your soul accepts it.

I remember when a person asked me if I was a convert to Is'lam, and I almost got upset. But I put the question in its proper context: afterall, he did not know me that well before the question was asked. A color blind person may not be able to differentiate red from brown for the sake of argument. So a person whose spiritual heart is deseased may not know spiritual right from wrong. Is'lam is not a religion that is passed down from generation to generation anyhow; otherwise, you will not be seeing people in the Americas, the indigenous Blacks and Whites and inbetween accepting it. And you will not have gotten some people on Nairaland who have claimed that they are no more Mus'lims; eg Backslider, etc.

@Therationa: I am very familiar with Robert Spenncer. His bloodline is from Turkey Kurd or Gipsie, but not ethnic Turk. He is a second generation American from California. And he has a Ph. D. from University of North Carolina at Chapel Hills. His problems are not truly with Islam, but Turk ethnic rulers of Turkey. He is a hand tool of the so called conservative think tank groups.

He had written some other books, but always shy away from having a dialogue with any home group Mus'lim Americans. His book is non of importance, to any mus'lim. I guess the freedom of speech and press protect him, just the same way it protects me. My condition is that I will restrict myself from knowingly say anything false by anyone, living or dead. Whereas, he and others, in the oriental field of study and other non mus'lims may not practise the same restraint.

Since I can not read anything but the contents section, I guess I can not comment on the book, But judging from all his interviews, he will not do better than his usual supposition process of argument. But what its important is that he is a member of a christian sect that is less than 200 years old. I guess then that the christian will say that he is a cultist. Therefore what do I expect from him?

Do you have any questions if you had read this book and any others? Do not hesitate to ask, please.

@4Him: I am sure that you forgot, tentatively that Olabowale may come across this thread! I expect to help diffuse your misgivings about Is'am if you are patient. But you have to ask questions, directly and allow answers.

@Stimulus;

I admire this effort. Although I'm not presently located in Naija for the prizes, I'll give it a go.

Well done.

I bet you are in one of those off the wall ackward places you listed as your worldwide rendevous; no sorry Europe and african countries where there are native greeks. Ku irin ajo no. Olorun to da e adari e pada sile Naijiria o. Amiin Olorun.

@4Him (m):

Question 8 just got me stumped!

David, and you have time to participate in this mundane thing, being hucked about the place by dafidixone? I am going to answer the # 8 question for you. Then you join me in Islam: It was John the son of Zacharia who preached about in the Wilderness. I remembered it from close to 40 years ago. I think the bowl of macaroni works well because it stores part of Al Qur'an. I guess annamaria also knows it. I need to invite her to Islam, too. I think she is Igbo, a good tree to plant in an almost treeless oasis. Obigeli, biko, join us to make Islam big among the Aro and imo Chukwu people of Nigeria. Others and me outside Nigeria will handle the people outside Nigeria border.

@stimulus (m);

Quote from: dafidixone on February 09, 2008, 01:51 PM
Hurry Up!

I'm trying. Like others, question #8 just jammed my gear!

Stimulus; you see how easily that God revealed your weakness? You are Nigerian, probably a Yoruba man. The foreign language that we are almost authority on is English, almost from the first few years of formal education. By the time you are introduced to any other, you have became fluent in English. If a question from the Bible that is worded in English can "just jammed my gear!" according to your immediate inability to answer it, I wonder what it will do to your matriculation if it is worded in Greek language?

Surprisingly, you are going to discuss Al Qur'an with me in Greek, a language that it is neither yours nor mine, considering that we were not colonised by Greece! Funny how the world turns! If God reveal your secret of lack of Biblical knowledge this easily how do you think He will cover your deficiencies in Is'lamic knowledge? I bet if you know that this careless response from you above is going to turn around and bark at you first and then bite you hard, as I am using it against you, right now you will never have typed it. Would you?

And if you check above, I have responded to it, just that I may be a means of good Biblical information to you. Here is my question to you: Do you know any prophet from the Bible that no one can say that he committed any sin? This is your greater Biblical quiz. Not the run of the mill that dafidixone is passing around. There are many of them, that no Christian can complain about, since you complain about the sexual condition of King David, the worship condition of King Solomon, for examples. Yet david was beloved by God and his son Solomon was the wisest!

@Stimulus:

He is not the God of the dead, but God of the living. Therefore, you greatly err.

From your Bible quote. (1)

In it we find that it claimed that God is God of the living alone.

It did not make any such claim

Stimulus, should open your eyes that your greek Biblical quotes, when translated to English, either means what it means or you are trying to tell us that it means something else. Either way, I think the above should clear things up. If God is God of the living, only, who si the God of the dead?

While you globe trot all over the place, the Greek should have lectured you on their language. Afterall, you said God is God of the living and not the God of the dead! I wonder who created the dead and what state were they before they were dead?

@Stimulus:

I did not miss Mark 12:29, and if truth be told, I have personally invited you to a discussion of that verse several times! Why this hypocrisy, olabowale? Are you not the same fella who begged that I should not consult the original languages of the Bible when discussing that very verse and John 1:1 as regards the Trinity? You cannot be disingenuously making such remarks when you are the same person who refused to enter a discussion of that verse!

So don't you explain it here and now? Why another thread on it? Begged, you wrote? Where did I beg you and why should I beg you? You must definitely be dillusional! If Greek is the Original language of revelation, then that will be news to Jesus son of Mary, who received the revelation from his Lord God the Creator. I do not remember that he was recorded speaking Greek and that he was a Greek. Each response from you shows how offtopic your try and in all of that effort, have been unseccessful.

Would the original Bible language really include Greek, except you take early language(s) that it was translated into as part of the original language of Bible revelation? I do not know when the Greek ruled over the Children of Israel? And it is not clear if the Romans spoke Greek, instead of their latin or italian. The Gospel that Jesus preached about, was it in greek? Absolutely not. And if you and me were to be having this argument in the company of elderly Yoruba people in any part of the Yorubaland, I am sure that Even English language will be inappropriate. You and me will assume that yoruba language is a better means of dialogue there.

To then use Greek words when convenient and abandoned it for Hebrew or Aramaic (the two possible languages of revelation) is absurd. You are wasting my time and I do not appreciate it. Stick to the plan. Expalin yourself or answer my questions where ever I asked them. To suggest that we open a thread for every question is immatured way of argument or an attempt to dilute the discussion.

@Stimulus: Demostrate your knowledge, first in your language: Yoruba and then English. You and me only go to the Website to learn Greek. Yet you have never seen a Greek with your own eyes, except on TV. I have many friends who are Greeks. There are many Mus'lims who are Greeks. I bet they know their language better than you and me. You avoided the Trinity dialogue and you are sending me on a wild goose chase.

My man, I no dey fall for that kinda trick. Thats 419 in my book. face reality and thats the only way I will attend to you.

Stimulus, I advise you to take a cue from this man, M_nwankwo. This is how to argue. You plung into it, directly, not have stepping with rage and anger that you have displayed, so far.

M_nwankwo, I will come back to you, later with a rebuttal, specifically concerning Jesus as god, part of god and son of god, all at the same time. Yet he had declared himself as prophet, in many verses as well as making a clear distinction between himself and God, if we examine Mark 12 ;29. He also shown himself as a comforter as he expected other comforter to come after him. If he was a prophet, as well as a comforter as also declaring that he was different and having the same God and Lord as his audience.

If you then say from your piece above that Jesus was god, son of god and part of god, i will then remind you that this idea in thought will be completely opposing the other ideas of him being prophet, comforterand have Lord and God in common with ordinary people, which idea is correct, considering that the two can not be correct at the same time?

If we are to observe the two ideas, we will see that Jesus was the one who called himself, prophet, comforter and having a common Lord and God as everyone else. The opinion of Jesus being god, son of god and part of god, did not come from him. There is no way that we can process all of these two sets of opposite ideas without concluding that one of them is completely wrong or at least that they just do not agree with the other set.

@Stimulus:

Greek English - (LITV)
ουκ εστιν ο θεος νεκρων αλλα θεος ζωντων υμεις ουν πολυ πλανασθε He is not the God of the dead, but God of the living. Therefore, you greatly err.

Now, since it is clear that "theos" (θεος) appears in the second instance in that verse without the definite article 'ho', was Jesus referring to "just any random deity" when He referred to "God of the living"? Certainly not! But Deedat would rather have us read "just any random deity of the living" in Mark 12:27! How absurd!

Further, other Greek terms (such as θεου) also appear without the definite article in John’s Gospel; but no one in their right minds would argue long and hard to make such Greek terms translate as "just any random deity" (according to Deedat), for these terms without the definite article actually point to the same God who revealed Himself to the Biblical prophets! A few examples in the same Gospel of John will suffice to show this:


John 1:6
Greek English
εγενετο ανθρωπος απεσταλμενος παρα θεου ονομα αυτω ιωαννης There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.


John 1:12
Greek English
οσοι δε ελαβον αυτον εδωκεν αυτοις εξουσιαν τεκνα θεου γενεσθαι τοις πιστευουσιν εις το ονομα αυτου But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name


John 1:18
Greek English
θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε ο μονογενης υιος ο ων εις τον κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


John 5:44
Greek English
πως δυνασθε υμεις πιστευσαι δοξαν παρα αλληλων λαμβανοντες και την δοξαν την παρα του μονου θεου ου ζητειτε How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?


John 6:45
Greek English
εστιν γεγραμμενον εν τοις προφηταις και εσονται παντες διδακτοι θεου πας ουν ο ακουων παρα του πατρος και μαθων ερχεται προς με It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


John 9:33
Greek English
ει μη ην ουτος παρα θεου ουκ ηδυνατο ποιειν ουδεν If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.

Stimulus, i am hoping you will be honest. But that is a very difficult thing for you. I simple responded to your first Biblical verse, both in Greek and its translation in English. In it we find that it claimed that God is God of the living alone. When I challenged you that you have not given full measure to the Creator, you resulted to your usual tactics: Please fish or cut bait. If your Bible make this kind of incomplete opinion about God, dont blame me, if simply point it out, which you blindly presented it in the first place.

In all indication, you can not even impress me about your essays defending Trinity, God or god or gods and John 1;1, yet you contin ue to pile up verses! Whats the purpose of that? Afterall, I am not greek and to tell me go dig up the root word of words in Greek is completely absurd. Considering that your greek Bible verse, when translated to English cuts out God from being the God of the dead. Again, I ask you, who is the God of the dead, apart from God? So according to your Bible verse above, please tell us, because enquiring mind wanna know?

@Stimulus:

Greek English - (LITV)
ουκ εστιν ο θεος νεκρων αλλα θεος ζωντων υμεις ουν πολυ πλανασθε He is not the God of the dead, but God of the living. Therefore, you greatly err.

If you and the whole of Christendom believe that God is only the God of the living (physically or spiritually dead people) you would have short changed Him. For before those who are dead became dead, they were alive, once. And for those who were spiritually dead became spiritually dead, they must have been at one time not spiritually dead. For one can not be dead unless being alive at a point, in time before the death occured. B

But it is this same God who will judge everyone, those were spiritually dead and those who were spiritually alive. But judgement can not occur unless all are physically dead. But that is another issue that i am sure that you and me can disagree upon. But thats not my reason here. My reason here is to ask you, if your understanding is tht God is not the God of those who are dead, but those who are living, who then is the God of those who are dead (Spiritually dead means in one form or the other denial of God or propper worship of Him; And only He can give the precepts of how to worship Him)?

If that verse above is your bringing about God into trinity, then you have eliminated the dead people from under Trinity authority! You will now realise that all of these verses and incomplete arguments from you, are somehow and glearingly at that just do not do it for you.

Almighty Creator says in His Book that I am your Creator and all that you create.Afterall we need the elements which god created without example to creat whatever we create.

So when Jesus brought about the dead person, the person was already created, lived and died, and jesus only repeated a part of the existence of that persons total life. Yet and finally, the oerson died off again. I am sure that if raising people from death was part of the fukll control of jesus, all those whose people died prior to and after he performed that raising of the dead miracle, would have asked him to raise their people. Thats on one hand and they would have asked him to refuse dead from all of them, if not all mankind.

You see we would have had those people and all their descendants still alive today. What i am saying here and if you can attempt to argue against me on this is that, the way you continue to define God, from the Biblical pronouncement, using Greek or other language, does not do justice to the Majesty of the Most Majestic. To say the dead do es not belong to Him, is to plainly say that He did not creat them. Afterall, He created Bamowolo, Therationa, KAG, Horus and their likes on nairaland, even though they may not accept that premise.

God is also the Creator of those who are physically dead, though they may have been spiritually alive or dead before.

@Pepeye:

@Wale
This trend is for praising the Almighty God, so beat it!!

From the rising of the sun
To the going down
of the same
Our LORD's name
Shall be praised

And you almost sounded like my elders. maybe you are. Eku le yi o. Interestingly, the Mus'lims get up after midnight to remember Him, in prayers, reading His Book and supplication to Him. It is all the time thing with us: even when the spouses meet each other.

Stimulus:

Your problem is that even when the Torah, Zabur and Injil have survived to this very day, you congeal your consciences with hard lies, claiming that they are lost but you can't prove it anywhere or anyhow! Those hard lies have been debunked, and if you want to enter into that discussion again, I'd be willing to show you what pilgrim.1 has not shown you, so you can see for yourself the fallacy of your own Qur'an! Do you care for that?

I wonder if you know more than "do you care for that?" I care for truth and let the chip or timber call where it may! For example something is lost when the pure quality is reduced in Quanity. Thake for example; 1 Metric ton of already hallmarked Gold boullion. If you take to a refinery or a warehouse and after a long time you return for your property and you are given a partial gold amount, what you now have if a lost product. Afterall part of it is lost. This is what we have in the Bible today. If Moses, Daud and jesus, for example were to be here today, and see what you call their "Books," in the Bible, even in the Hebrew or Aramaic texts, they will definitely declare that some verses are missing, in each of their concerned books.

As to referring to the Bible as corrupt, I will use the same gold to illustrate my point: If when you return you are given a smaller quanity, meaning that some parts are already gone and not returned to you and they greedily and corningly claim that this is exactly what you brought to them, but when you take what you have now, the smaller quantity to a refinery to resmelt it so that it can be assayed afresh and hallmarked, but what the refiner is telling you is that each melted bar now contains some silver, platinum, uranium (even though the last two are more expensive), what you find is that there is corruption in each bar, because of these added materials, which were done by the wherehouse custodians without your knowledge.

The Qur'an is the Refinery which by weighting your bag of Gold tells you that you have less than 1 Metric ton. And when it is put under a smelting process to qualify its purity, it is the one also that tells you that your product contains impurity: Eg Pauls statement and even the acts, epistles and other mundane verses.

Finally, even though am not an expert in Yoruba language, but i doubt if anyone can cheat me in the essence of its speech. If I do not know it, i ask any Yoruba in my vicinity, my family, my friends or better yet go to the indigenous speakers and experts, in the villages and universities: afterall, a ji sebi Yoruba lan ri Yoruba ko nji se mi eni kon.

@Stimulus:

What sayest thou (therationa)?

You really do not have to take permission from them to contribute to the thread. Ithink this response of yours is very shurdy. You should contribute greatly, because I think you at least can defend the belief system, yours for an example, in a very esoterical way, neither leaning this way or that. But trying to define belief as a faith rather that rationality of Science, without its obvious fusion with faith.

Afterall, we see the handwork of a more intelligent being in our processes, without having to disagree with the rationale held by many Science Scholarship.

@Stimulus:

You dislike thuggery but have incessantly used it as your bastion in deriding the Trinity even after you have been appealed to SEVERAL TIMES! How many times have I personally offered you an enabling environment to discuss it, often inviting you again and again to seek to discuss issues without recourse to your sly slobbers?

We can discuss whatever we want to discuss in amicable mature ways. There is no need to invite what you cannot sustain and then come back to whimper with these lame excuses. I've often offered reasonable answers to your queries - but like I said recently, if you are allergic to rational discussions then I will no longer entertain your penchant to continually slur and disrespect Christians.

How could you have missex my mentioning of mark 12 Verse 29, which you did not even try to bring to focus in your entry? Afterall, this is from the Bible, and more importantly, from the mouth of the master himself, Jesus son of Mary (according to the Bible). I know that jesus did not lie. How do you then explain the Trinity in light of this single Verse; Mark 12;29? Afterall where there are disagreements, we must take the word of a more trusted individual: Bewteen the Bible writers on one hand and jesus on the other, I will side with Jesus, any day and any time.

In Is'lam, all the Imams said in their individual disclaimer: If you find anywhere where I have an opinion that is different from my prophet Sayiddina Muhammad bin Abdallah, disregard my opinion and take that of the Prophet (as), because if I had known his opinion before offering mine, it would have been his opinion that i would offer. This is classic deferrence of knowledge to the one who have more ad pure knowledge.

Afterall, it is Jesus who would know bettr about his own mission between he and the Bible writers (yet they could have been so many in number).

If I respond to the analysis of Trinity by M_Nwankwo, I would have to say that one of those three persons (even though they always want us to believe that it is One person, yet they write Three always), will have the same nature as the other two: eg, eating, drinking, defeacating, tiredness, sleep and slumber, being weak and powerless at the point of death, bleeding, etc and death. But we also know that God Almighty Creator never died, never tired, never warried, absolutely created and not just through Him, like the Christians associated with Jesus, has controls over all things including Angels and Jesus (remember the prayer of Jesus at the garden?), can forgive independently of anybody and all forgiveness is absolutely His alone, not a son of any body, so Mary was not His mother, but mother of Jesus (Surprisingly the angel appeared to Joseph to tell him that his wife is already pregnant; And i remember asking 4Him that was Mary already Joseph's wife in the household at that time or just that it was a future wife and husband project, while mary was still under the authority and guardianship of Zacharia, a male relative? I jokingly ask 4Him if he believed that the virginity odf mary would have lasted the night if they married just few hours before, putting into considerations the Sematic sexual obligations and even 4Him's personal statement that he will 'eat the yam, the moment he actually have the right to it), through the pregnancy brought about by "the holy spirit,' yet they called "God the father," his father and failed to call him son of holy spirit.

In all we will see that each idea negates the other in a way that there is doubt through it all. How can jesus be his own father, getting his own mother pregnant? I remember as a child the song in Yoruba: Oyun oko ko rara, oyun ale ko rara, emi mimo to mi wa, edumare to mi wa, lagbara oga ogo, OSIJI BOMI LORI O, (I think you Christians from Yorubaland know the truth and the whole story. Tell your non Yoruba Christian friends). OSIJI BOMI LORI O; means he came over me and cover me( I bet if that is not mounting or Sire (intercourse, I do not know what that is), yet we see our Christian friends trying to convince us that there is not sex involved here!

But we all forget that God Created Adam and his wife eve, without any example, and brought them to life by just a simple command process "Be, and it is!" Yet he allowed then to bring forth children by the way we accept most children are brought about. But that is not the only way: We have seen surrogate motherhood, and others process, yet knowledge is not complete.

@Therationa:

Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us (1:22-23 , KJV).

Most good Christians take this at face value, assured that the prophet Isaiah did indeed describe Jesus' miraculous conception and birth seven hundred years before. But did he? Authorities are nearly unanimous. The answer is no.

What did Isaiah really say? Turning to Isaiah 7:14 (Masoretic text), we find his precise words:

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, ha'almah shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Am not a Christian, but the story of Jesus and Mary his mother are well known to all Mus'lims. First, in the semitic society of the time of Mary and even now, women who are not married are rarely allowed to strick out on their own; without a male guardian. Since it is obvious that adultery was not an ideal sexual condition with them, the women may remain a virgin for a very long time, until they are married. This is also true even today within these more religious people, more than say agnostic, atheist enviroment.

I do men who are in their thirties and older, who are still virgins because they have never married. All these being said, it will not be unreasonable and too far fetched that a woman who reached the age of maturity (13 is the age of Bermizva among the Children of isreal), and still a virgin and under the authority of a male relative. In the case of Mary, Zachariah was that male. And womanhood comes when the first menstarl condition occurs, anyway.

It will not be impossible that these two conditions, Bermizva and menstration happened not too far apart. It is not imposible that earlier prophet had prophesized the birth of Jesus anyhow. And to be named Immanuel meaning God with is, does not mean that the person named is "God." Afterall, Moses said something similar to it, when at the bank of the sea, while Pharaoh and his doomed army were about to overrun them. God is always with the Victor. In Yorubaland Pelu could be Olorunwapelumi, Oluwapelumi, and many derivitives of God with us.