₦airaland Forum

Backslider: Stop this madness! Go back home and retake your Shahadah!

@4Him:

Moses did not fight a single war to promote a religion at all.
What you refer to as a religion was actually an indirect relationship between God and Abraham . . . a covenant that carried on to His descendants (the children of Isaac) through God's immutable promise. A relationship with Moses as the go-between.

Jesus included in that son of Isaac? I guess you will say that all the values of the covenant was transmitted from Ibrahim to the Isaac children leaving Ibrahim out of the loop! These Christians can lie too much! Shame on liars.

And yet you hypocrites claim Jesus Christ was still a man like you and me? Ever seen a human born without a father?
You people keep twisting urselves in a knot the more desperate you get trying to force mohammed into the bible.

David you are future doctor. Ever heard of artificial insemination? Ever heard of test tube baby? Ever heard heard of surrogate motherhood? What will happen when they began to clone? No sex! Yet babies can be produced!

For me the old fashion is the best. But for you, you will be deprived of it in Christian heaven.

I wonder if Jesus is son of god, god or 1/3 god, why would he declare to us what he declared in Mark 12 Verse 29? I wonder why he did not know when the hour will be, when he was asked?

Finally, just to kill the Trinity concept, since the other part is the holy ghost; does anyone know if the holy ghost knows the time of the hour? Considering that Jesus himself stated that God is the only One who knows the time of the hour! I guess the lack of complete knowledge by Jesus and holy ghost, as per their deficiency to the time of the hour simply points to us that they are not God, or part of the Almighty God!

For me the ghost or spirit is not more than Angel Gabreil! None has a full knowledge, except God, solely in this position!

@Imhotep:

I get this one too. You want a 'god' that can fit into your finite intelligence. Funny enough, such a 'god' will also be a finite god ----- not the Infinite One.

Yet you called Jesus god? How infite do you wnt a god that slept, tired and fatigued, ate, deficated; both liquid and solid, developed as a fetus in a young womans womb, suckled and pass through the human stages of infancy, crawling, babbling, trying to take steps, etc?

No man can stand the presence of God. Whenever Jesus manifested His true nature, no one withstood Him.

- Peter, James and John were drowsy on the mount of Transfiguration. Peter was able to half-sleepily make some comments.
- The Roman soldiers at his tomb fell asleep at His resurrection.
- Paul was blinded when Jesus appeared to him as Light and knocked him off his chariot.

Same condition with every prophet, when they are in spiritual protocol. None of the companions of ProphetMuhammad can look him in the eye because of the amount of light on him, after every salah! That happened five times every day. Then when he is receiving revelation his body becomes very heavy. A proof of that was when he was resting part of his body on the thigh of one of his companions (ra). And suddenly he began to receive revelation. This companion said that that part of his body that wa resting on his thigh became so heavy that he was afraid that his thigh bone was going to crack!

Moh@mmed is free to write whatever book he chooses to write. My problem with him is that he never met Christ -- yet he has distorted the truth about Christ, and uses the sword to prove his point.

Rest your heart. First ProphetMuhammad met all prophets in the earthly part of his Isra Miraj Night journey to heavens and beyond and back! He met Jesus in Jerusalem and Jesus prayed Salatul Ibrahima behind him! Then he met him again in second heven in the company of his cousin John son of zachariah, while he met Moses in the sixth heaven and had dialogue with both of them. But more dialogue with Moses when heMuhammad (as) was being given the commandment of daily salah. I see that you know nothing about nothing.

I no insult you o. But an just jiving with you now. I trying to give you that neck shot, a knock out blow. Just wake your soul up!

@SysUser: Se Ibadan lowa? Are you an Ibadan man? I wonder how you have been able to survive in Ibadan, which is clearly a Muslim city, yet you are a Christian? You must be hiding your head from the Oke Mapo people!

@D_reloaded:

Patience Yusuf?

Anyway what a pitiful story. where's olabowale.

Sisi mi. Am here. If the story is true that you invited me to comment on, then the Mus'lim man at best has no understanding of is'lam. First, the process of Marriage in Is'lam does not include boyfriend/girlfriend. This man was described as a young man, he must have family members, at least one that he could ask to approach the woman to ask her if she will be interested him marrying him. It is after this that he would ask her that his family will like to talk to her guardian. Even as old as I am now, I would never tel to be my girlfriend and after her acceptance of marriage proposal, I have to talk to a male person in her life. But her dowry and other things like that will be between me and her.

Further there is no force marriage. And no woman should be forced against her will. You can not change a person's heart from what the heart wants. Just because people say that they are Mus'lims does not mean that they know the basic thing about Is'lam. look at Babangida who called himself Evil genius! No mus'lim should have shaitan or shayatin as part of his/her name! Is this unrest a tribal or cultural thing, yet the religion of is'lam is stigmatised by it?

Unfortunately, every time there was problem people of different faith, it is assumed that it has to be religious. Thats not how I see!

@Imhotep:

Ok. Now I get the trick!

The bible is self-contradictory and has been altered.

However, it is not contradictory when it is twisted and used to prove the legitimacy of Moh@mmed!!!

Wonderful.

You got it wrong, my man. Let me show you something; This morning, I soaked some gari in the water (am an Ijebu man, okay, so sometimes I go back to my root. I even try Ikokore, in Obodo America), and as I take spoon full to eat, after so many soon of gari, it was very difficult to get any more spoon full. Then as I did not drain off the water, my spoon became empty. This is the condition with your Bible of today. It has much water but very few gari in the bowl! The only reason we know the remaining truth in the Bible is the cross referencing of each verse with the pure Qur'an!

What we see as lies are what defies true belief. Let me give you example; god being divisible is a no no. No sight have ever seen him and to claim that God is so weak and brought Himself low, is not part of the honoring of the Creator!

BTW, Moses was addressing the Jews - Jesus came as a Jew and preached to the Jews. Moses and Elijah appeared at the site of Jesus' Transfiguration - in the presence of Peter, James and John. Jesus, Moses and Elijah held a discussion - the content of which we do not know. The voice of the Father was later heard.

But before the Children of Israel told Moses not to let God speak directly to them, because they knew that if they hear His voice, they will all die! How foolish can those sets of persons who were then with Jesus and heard God's voice and yet they did not die, since they were not prophets/messengers. Futher it is ironic and telling that these people heard the voice of God Almighty and they did not tell anyone what they heard, yet they were hearing distance from Jesus, Moses and Elijah, yet they did not hear them? What a load of you know what! David help me tell Imhotep what I meant.

Moh@mmed addressed the Arabs and referred to the Jews as people of the book. Subsequently he wrote his own book which contradicted the book of the Jews and the records of the life of Jesus - who met with Moses.

If only Muhammad(as)was matriculated! But his tutor was Jibril and his Professor was Allahu Ta'ala Himself (Al Alim). Calling these people, the Jews and Christians people of the book (funny that you simple called the people of the book Jews alone, without referring to you African Christians among that group), is not by his making. Thats what God caalled them. And the reason was that they were given Books of revelation. But altering the contents to fit the human intentions and disregarding the will of god, is the reason that god states that the books are corrupted and the Qur'an is preserved in its entirity, as an oral book. Further, the fact that human gained it, will not nullify its purity as God Almighty gave it to His Messengers; Moses and jesus as good illustrations.

First the books, Torah and Injil are from a mother book which is preserved in where it is preserved! Further, if Moses and jesus were to be alive now, they will tell you guys that what you are passing up as their Books are far cry from the truth which they received from God! Let me educate you a little; If the writers were Moses and jesus alone, without the hands of the Jewish scholars and Paul and co along with others, then you will have seen it agreeing with the Qur'an. Even Paul kill off what we know are from Moses, the 10 commandments! Who received revelation from God Almighty, Moses or Paul? The answer is known to all. Who is better in speech and knowledge Jesus or Paul? The answer is also clear. But when you take Paul over Moses as you do in cancelling the parts that you cancelled in the 10 commandment and disregarding Jesus statement as in Mark 12 Verse 29 and accepting Paul and his crew contradictions, you will have to believe that the Qur'an came to correct all of these and throw away the actions and statements of Paul out, separating it as fallacy and confirming the truth from Moses and Jesus (as jami'a)!

Phew.

@Ayinba1: When any of the none Muslims ask you any questions, all you have to do is refer to Qur'an and ahadith/sunnah. All the answers are in there, its like a well made stew/soup; you feel the taste, the sight is pleasing and the aroma is inviting. Islam is made easy, you can google everything today; from Qur'n, the tafsir of it, Sunnah/ahadith and even videos. You have them at just a click of the mouse.

@4Him:

You are the one in denial for the following reasons:
1. The christian God is markedly different from the muslim God. No amount of bellyaching can change that fact. Just take one look at the bible and k'oran and its clear the speakers are two different entities.

You are right. One thing though, Is'lamic Holy book is spelled with Q and not the K you dubiously used above. That alone amount to deceitfulness locking in your heart. The Christian God is three gods in One, while the Mus'lim God is One God having no heavenly nor earthly partner or comparison!

2. The entire bible is centered around one fact . . . the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ our Saviour on the cross of calvary, is'lam is built around the denial of this fact.

I guess when you say the Bible, you simply mean the New testament part of it? You have quitely disregard the Old testament part of it. Remarkably, it is this Old testament that is the beginning of this book you call the Bible. Allahu Ta'ala is glorified. He said in Surah Al Imran, chapter 3 that the Christian and Jews though have the same book, each claims that the other has no truth to stand on. Each denying the part that the other believe in or rely on in the same book. It is obvious that the Jews do not believe in the New Testament and the Christians in some part of the Old testament. Afterall the Christians disbelieve in the 10 Commandment, otherwise, there will not be 3 gods or godheads or distinct personalities/persons in One, the graving image and associating anything with God Almighty, such as Holy spirit which is not more than an Angel (Angel gabreil) and son which is not more than a human messenger/prophet and messiah to his mother folks (Jesus son of Mary).

3. The heaven muslims talk about is markedly different from that we christians believe in.

- the muslim concept of "heaven" is jaanat in arabic which means "garden of eden" in English . . . the christian heaven is not to be compared with the garden of eden, an earthly garden . . . neither does the bible say anything significant about it after the first few chapters in the book of genesis.
The garden of eden was where sin first crept into the world . . . such a place will NOT be in the christian heaven.
Heaven, as a concept, is not a generic term for the afterlife for the righteous . . . the REAL arabic name for heaven is Alia . . . which does not appear anywhere in the k'oran or hadiths.

Again, you have proven you lack of Is'lamic knowledge. Heaven in Arabic is Sama'a. Where you find your 'Alia' must have been from the bad professor on the Web, the Orientalists.And Garden of Eden is in your Book, the Bible. There is no where in the Qur'an than we have it. Allahu ta'ala created Adam in heaven and not on earth, as the Christians are led to believe. Eve was created and after the disobedience of Iblis, who was later named Shaitan for his removal from the mercy of the creator, Adam and his wife Hawa were told to enter Jannah (a place not on earth but in Heaven). They were instructed not to come near a particular tree in there. This was their test. However Shaitan deceived them and suggested that they eat from it, because they will become like the Angels (even though Shaitan himself is not an Angel and do not look like them, but he was wiser that Adam and Hawa, so he could suggest in deceit to these new beings) or they will remain for ever.

So husband and wife eat from the tree (unlike your Bible where it was the was that was blamed and not the hushand. So much for Is'lamic bad treatment of women. The first sin, the Christian put the whole blame squrely on our mothers!). They were sent out of the Paradise in heaven to the earth, so that the their progenies can be tested and the obedients returned to paradise and the disobedients sent in justice to Hellfire. Let me ask you for the fun of it: Where is the Christian Bible Garden of Eden? Is it in use by man, today or is kept out of reach of man? Where is the Apple tree that the Christian Bible said that Eve ate from, before deceitfully passing it to her husband? I wonder if after Eve ate and found that she was naked, how did she walk up to Adam (assuming that they were never together at the time of the incident and i ask you what would Adam be doing away from his wife anyhow, when they had everything and didn'thave to work?), naked or what? The Bible left a ton of questions that no one can answer.

- There are no slaves in the christian heaven, only sons.

You took out the daughters. I guess you included them as their sex will be changed, or you omitted them as they will all be in lake of fire or it was your incomplete writing here that you wanted to write sons and daughters? But you are sons and daughters here, whats the difference, except from these sons and daughters there will be some in lake of fire or there wouldn't be any? What about Hitler, Mussolinni, etc? You see I did not say stalin, because he was an Atheist!

- God can be seen, touched and worshiped in the christian heaven . . . not so in jaanat.

The same way you saw and touched him as a son on earth? There is no differenet in dimensions, etc? If you continue to worship in heaven, how do you do that: going to Church, daily, or only Sundays? You will be reading the Bible; The Gospels of Mark, Luke, etc with the acts of Apostles and the Epistles of Paul, included? Whats the significance? You do that now, don't you? What benefit do you have in heaven that you do not have on earth, except that you are deprived of what is good that you used to do on earth (Food, sex, and others)? Do you then read the Old testament or its completely removed from Christian Bible? What happens to the Jews? I know that they are the Victims in the Amargeddon war, but I will still to know if they are in lake of fire with their prophets who do not believe that Jesus is God?

- Sex and marriage are NOT a part of the christian heaven as we are changed into a different body . . . not so for jaanat.

I think you guys are really short changed. Maybe thats why you wrote only sons in your earlier response to describe the people of Christian heaven. Nwando, you will miss plenty in heaven, because you will made a man for the first time, yet never tasting the beauty of being a man!

- Suicide victims are sinners and will not be a part of the christian heaven, suicide bombers are regarded as martyrs in jaanat.

I agree with you in the Suicide victim issue, but disagree with you in the Suicide Bomber matter. Martyrdom are people who are believers and do things of believers and were killed doing things of believer. To be a Martyr does not have to be in war alone. You could be assisting somebody in goodness and you die, or taking care of your aged parents, and other simple acts.

- Worship is the primary purpose of the christian heaven, slaves in jaanat will be too preoccupied with rivers of wine and eating non-stop for 40yrs.

But you do that here now, don't you? That is being the primary purpose is worship, or isn't it for Christians? Maybe you just true slaves in Christian heaven while on earth you can even chop food and husband and wife can chop the yam of each other (I am quoting from your statement on sex after traditional marriage before the Church wedding thread). But David, is it not true that when the slaves/servants in the Bible were being told to work hard, that it was referenced that the master of such slave/servant should be mindful of God the Master of each of them, and that even then they are still servants/slaves to Jesus? This simple verse in the Bible, the New Testament proves that you guys are truly slaves and servants, even to Jesus, who you call God, but yet you deny it and call yourselves Children of the God who sent Jesus to the earth on a mission? Now, which one are you Slaves/Servants of Jesus or Children of God who is the Master of Jesus because He can send Jesus on an errand but Jesus can not refuse the errand and Jesus can not send Him on an errand! This also proofs that thay are not equal as you guys stubbornly push across.

And glory belong to Allahu Ta'ala alone. If the Mus'lim slaves are honored with felicity in Paradise and you are singularly purposed to just worship, what is the reward of your being in Christian heavens? It seems to me that if you stop worshipping for a moment you will be punished. Maybe you have been made into a drone, having to feeling and of course being deprived all things good that you used to enjoy on this earth?

- No member of the christian heaven will have to pass through a bridge over hell . . . not so with the slaves of jaanat.

How do you get to the Christian heaven? Even though you will without a doubt as a Christian will end up in Hellfire of the Mus'lims, your denial to go is only because you are still alive. I ask God Almighty who created you to help you before death arrives. Every human, including Jesus will pass over the Bridge. If the devil can place Jesus on a cliff, how do you think that Jesus will be spared of the test by the Creatorof the devil that tempted jesus, Jesus himself, "Muhammad(as)" and all creations?

Ayinba1, call me a retard but i am not the one trying to separate "heaven" for christians and muslims, i am simply stating the bleeding obvious. Now who again is the one in denial?

The only one who is in denial between you and ayinba1 is 4Him. Oh, thats you David. I wo tie de je omo dada ntie.

@4Him:

She argues that the bible was written by prophets . . . there was no written k'oran in the time of moh'ammad so does that necessarily mean that according to her analogy the k'oran is false?

There was written Qur'an in the time of ProthetMuhammad! The first revelation, containing only five verses was Qur'an at that Time t, when it was revealed and no other verses were revealed. And do not forget that they were written down. So really there Qur'an written down, all the time!

They were written in patchments consisting odf leathers, and others animal parts, eg bones and other materials like leaves, etc. And they were memorized and used extensively in all forms of worship and in all Is'lamic ceremonies. It was not restricted to Salah only. This is why I am amassed that the non Mus'lims would attack the compilation of the Qur'an to a Book form, without considering many factors; all that I have mentioned in addition to the fact that in every month of Ramadan, Muhammad(as) and Jibril (as) used to recite it to each other, once each, except the last Ramadam of the prophet alive. That Ramadan it was twice to each other. In all those years, and especially the last Ramadan, if there was any mistake, Jibril would have corrected it, considering that Jibril was an Agent of his Lord to previous prophets and to Muhammad(as) and did not have to be shy about his responsibility but only concerned himself with his duty to his God.

Further, the only reason that they made it to a Book form which contains all the verse of the Qur'an, and not leaving any verse out (for if there was any part that could be be left out, it would have been the abrogated verses. But they are all in there in the Book, showing the progression of how the heart is gradually immensed in belief), was because the momorisers were being killed off by the enemies of Is'lam and that the people whose tongues were not Arabic and are probably hearing the language for the very first time were entring Is'lam. And there is no way anyone could have kept the text pure, even though it is oral document, except that it is written down so that it can be taught orally and can be visually referenced, another way of its teaching and learning.

Whoever claims prophethood for himself and unfortunately herself, is a liar! Prophethood ended with Issac's branch of Ibrahim bloodline with Jesus and with the whole Ibrahim bloodline, ending the covenant, with "Muhammad(as)"

Never will there be any prophet after him!

@Nwando:

Mo says hell fire na so so hijabed women dey am.
Women wey no satisfy their bearded men enough.
wayo man

Whats wayo about him? The fact that many notable Igbo people are entering Is'lam is wayo? the fact that some men will enter hellfire is wayo? The fact that Polytheists, Atheists and Christians and Jews are destined for hellfire is wayo? Tell me what you mean by wayo?

You wayo woman, abeg go sidon!

Imhotep: The question is where did sin originate? Did it Originate from God or where? What brought it to existence? Is it disobedience to rule, law or commandment that defines sin? Give an example of Sin and the first sin, if you know? Was thee a sin before the any from Adam, before he was created? What was the first sin in Mankind? All of these questions will hlp you to understand what it means when th question is, where did sin originate?

I think you have what could be called Christianiatis syndrome. You can never answer qestion, directly.

@ 4Him;

Is this the hell alla'h promised you would have to go down into? the horror!

Hell is promised to everyone, except true believers. The true believers are in the rank of Is'lam, the Mus'lims. Even the Mus'lims who go to Hell, will be there only for a time, InshaAllahu Ta'ala, as long as there is much as a mustard seed amount belief in the heart. But David, if you die and not ever having that small amount of belief in your heart, because you are non Mus'lim, then you will be in Hell forever! Think about that, because Shaitan will be there along with Hitler, Pharaoh and other evil people like that. Oh, Queen Isabella and the other nobilities of Europe and all those Crusaders! Bad company it is.

@Nwando:

chei,na so na twist am?
Oya make we see wetin a'llah and M'ohammed really say.

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 125:
Na 'Abdullah bin Abbas:

Then I saw the (Hell) Fire, and I have never before, seen such a horrible sight as that, and I saw that the majority of its dwellers were women." The people asked, "O A'llah's Apostle! What is the reason for that?" He replied, "Because of their ungratefulness." It was said. "Do they disbelieve in A'llah (are they ungrateful to God)?" He replied, "They are not thankful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors done to them. Even if you do good to one of them all your life, when she seems some harshness from you, she will say, "I have never seen any good from you.' "

Sisi, I think you forgot that even Christian men feel this way. There is a saying that hell has no fury like a woman scorned. Since you are a woman am sure that you could be pushed hard and you can even forget the love that you used to have for the 'wonderful man,' in good time and become an open enemy in time of bitterness. I remember the movie titled war of the Roses. The woman became a clear enemy that the same man she used to say she would love foreer.

Nwando, women are always the first to forget the promises made to each other and the vows of marriage, when she is unhappy. I remember you telling last year that I will hear from you. I laughed and I thanked my Creator that I am not the one to receive that kinda 'possible anger' from you, without ability to walk away. Alhamdulillah. I do not have to grin and bear it, thats Mr. Nwando's issue! You see thats what the Prophet meant. I remember Janet jackson's song what have you done for me lately. She was talking about her father, just because they had a little disagreement. I could lecture you all day about these things, but alas, your heart can take it. You gotta become Mus'lim then I am eager to direct you, InshaAllah.

what about transgender?
will they be spared?

Yes, transgenders will be in hellfire, too. The question for you is that are you willing to hang out in hellfire with this type of character? Think about it, lady.

@Horus:

They don’t know where hell is, or if such a place really exists. They can’t even decide what hell is. Which one is it? Is it a place where you will be given oozing pus to drink like the K'oran describes (K'oran 14:16), or a place where you will be roasted (K'oran 17:18), or a prison (K'oran 17:? Also, how did the pit get there? How did a big place of fire get beneath us? Did God create it down there? Why is it that scientists haven’t discovered it yet being they have dug holes straight down to the center of the Earth? Why is it that you can’t find hell if it really is a place that exists? Scientists have listened to the ground, they have all kinds of advanced technical equipment with computers. Have they heard crackling fires? No!!! Why? Because hell is a state of mind. It is what you make it. It exists within you, for each one will pattern his or her hell according to what he believes hell is. They don’t hear anybody down there screaming and hollering or any torturing. So what makes you believe that there is some place “down there” that you will go if you are a sinner where there is fire and demons? The K'oran ? Let’s be for real! There is nothing in the K'oran that has been proven to be facts yet. You can’t even prove that the characters in your K'oran really exists, let alone a place called hell! The hell that your Preachers, Teachers, Rabbis, Imaams, and Sheiks preach to you about is another trick to keep you trapped under religion.

No one says that hellfire is in the core of the earth. If you read any mus'lim saying that let me know and i will tell you that he/she is a liar. "Muhammah(as)" said that he was shown Hell and the description of it is complete for your heart to be able to get soft and pray that you are not from the people of hell. But Horus, your actions as a disbeliever is an indication of your pompous and baseless pride that is eating you alive. You have to change and be aware that hell is real and so is paradise. Hell is created as a means of just punishment to those who are disbelievers and by that truly evildoers. Paradise is a means of mercifulness in rewarding a good effort, in true belief and trying to do good as best as possible.

4Him:

1. Where is this recorded either in the christian bible, in your own injeel, the ko'ran or secular history?
2. Why was al'lah ever interested in the sabbath? When did it become a mus'lim rite?
3. Al'lah turned an entire nation into apes and pigs because a few fishermen broke the sabbath? Does this sound sane?

In Surah Baqarah you will read the condition that leads to this changing to Monkey (the younger people) and Swine (the older people).

The Jews breach the Sanctity of the Sabbath

Allah said, (And indeed you knew). This Ayah means, O Jews! Remember that Allah sent His torment on the village that disobeyed Him and broke their pledge and their covenant to observe the sanctity of the Sabbath. They began using deceitful means to avoid honoring the Sabbath by placing nets, ropes and artificial pools of water for the purpose of fishing before the Sabbath. When the fish came in abundance on Saturday as usual, they were caught in the ropes and nets for the rest of Saturday. During the night, the Jews collected the fish after the Sabbath ended. When they did that, Allah changed them from humans into monkeys, the animals having the form closest to humans. Their evil deeds and deceit appeared lawful on the surface, but they were in reality wicked. This is why their punishment was compatible with their crime. This story is explained in detail in Surat Al-A`raf, where Allah said (7:163),

(And ask them (O Muhammad ) about the town that was by the sea; when they transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath (i.e. Saturday): when their fish came to them openly on the Sabbath day, and did not come to them on the day they had no Sabbath. Thus We made a trial of them, for they used to rebel (disobey Allah).)(7:163). In his Tafsir, Al-`Awfi reported from Ibn `Abbas that he said, (We said to them: "Be you monkeys, despised and rejected'') means, "Allah changed their bodies into those of monkeys and swines. The young people turned into monkeys while the old people turned into swine.'' Shayban An-Nahwi reported that Qatadah commented on, (We said to them: "Be you monkeys, despised and rejected''), "These people were turned into howling monkeys with tails, after being men and women.''

The Monkeys and Swine that exist now are not the Descendants of Those that were transformed

Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "Those who violated the sanctity of the Sabbath were turned into monkeys, then they perished without offspring.'' Ad-Dahhak said that Ibn `Abbas said, "Allah turned them into monkeys because of their sins. They only lived on the earth for three days, for no transformed person ever lives more than three days. They did not eat, drink or have offspring. Allah transformed their shapes into monkeys, and He does what He wills, with whom He wills and He changes the shape of whomever He wills. On the other hand, Allah created the monkeys, swines and the rest of the creation in the six days (of creation) that He mentioned in His Book.''

Allah's statement, (So We made this punishment an example) means, Allah made the people of this village, who violated the sanctity of the Sabbath, (an example) via the way they were punished. Similarly, Allah said about Pharaoh, (So Allah, seized him with punishing example for his last and first transgression) (79:25). nAllah's statement, (for those in front of it and those behind it) meaning, for the other villages. Ibn `Abbas commented, "Meaning, `We made this village an example for the villages around it by the manner in which We punished its people.''' Similarly, Allah said, (And indeed We have destroyed towns (populations) round about you, and We have (repeatedly) shown (them) the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) in various ways that they might return (to the truth and believe in the Oneness of Allah ـ Islamic Monotheism)).(46:27)

Therefore, Allah made them an example for those who lived during their time as well as a reminder for those to come, by preserving their story. This is why Allah said, (and a lesson for Al-Muttaqin (the pious)), meaning, a reminder. This Ayah means, "The torment and punishment that this village suffered was a result of indulging in Allah's prohibitions and their deceit. Hence, those who have Taqwa should be aware of their evil behavior, so that what occurred to this village does not befall them as well.'' Also, Imam Abu `Abdullah bin Battah reported that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said, (Do not commit what the Jews committed, breaching what Allah has forbidden, by resorting to the lowest types of deceit.) This Hadith has a good (Jayid) chain of narration. Allah knows best. (67. And (remember) when Musa said to his people: "Verily, Allah commands you that you slaughter a cow.'' They said, "Do you make fun of us'' He said, "I take Allah's refuge from being among Al-Jahilin (the ignorant or the foolish).'')

@4Him:

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 08:31:52 PM
All nations means all the 12 tribes of Israel. Please what goespel are you referring to?


Show me where this is clearly stated in your own injeel.

Injeel is a continuation of Torah, since they are in the same book, the Bible. Both focused and spoke to the same people, the 12 Tribes of Isreal. We read from the Old Testament that when Moses gave them drinking places, it was drinking places where each nation (tribe) had its own, separate from the other nations (tribes).

Please try to read that portion of the Bible and bring yourself to par, in the New Testament. Nation is nothing more than tribe in the Bible, hence Jesus was sent to the Children of Israel nations which you termed to mean the whole world. Nations means tribes, and not world which will include African nations and the rest of the other nations of the world, even though they are all in different continents.

@4Him:

Ye hypocrites . . . have you answered the question of why al'lah refered to jews as apes and pigs first?
Have you answered the question on why moh'amad called the ethiopians raisin heads?

David, I will answer your questions.

1) On the Issue of Jews being apes and pigs: Allahu Ta'ala gave them a commandment in observation of the Sabbath. The fisher persons among them engineered a way to beat the system, so they thought. But the All Knowing knew their deceitful device. So for this action, He punished them by turning them to apes and pigs. (A deserving punishment it was). But it did not mean that all Jews are apes and pigs. Unlike Christian God, the Mus'lim God punishes whoever wrong his own soul, by committing sins. (Big sins).

2) On the issue of ethiopians raisin heads: Abibi Mustafa's ministry includes the eradication of slavery. But there were ignorant mindset still within the rank of the Mus'lims. They used to call the blacks by all derogative and demeaning names that they can make up. One of them is the description of the hair texture. Just like people will say nappy hair in America, the arabs say raisin head.

The messenger was instructing the community that they should follow a person based on God consciousness and piety, regardless of community status, eg wealth, popularity, etc. So the Prophet (as) illustrated the matter by saying that even if that person who you people should follow is a person that (you used to deride because of his position and skin color or hair texture, the hair texture being nappy or tightly wounded and resemble raisin, hence the term raisin head), has bad textured hair whom you used to deride as raisin head! This is the truth about it.

And to support my statement, Bilal bin Rabah was the Muadzin and when the prophet passed away, and in the time of Umar bin Kattab, he called him ya sayiddina Bilah Rabah (Oh my master Bilal Rabah). And in the Qur'an in Surah Taubah, Al Rahman called the Arabs (Some from them) dibelievers and evil doers.

David, as must as I love you, when you argue against truth, I realise that you do not know so we must try hard to explain the truth to you. But you must go and do your own research and InshaAllahu ta'ala will come to a good conclusion on the matter.

@Nwando: I did not hear you. But please don't burst a gasket or any pipe while trying to use the MEGA Phone! But read the piece above and if you had read the verses of the Qur'an before that ape and pig statement, you wuold have understood that they had disobeyed their God and that was the way He chose to punish them. Remember how those who were involved in the building of the golden calf was punished, from the Bible? God decided to punish in the way He wished. End of story! Pele. Abeg go sidon.

@ D_reloaded:

Hello Drusilla it's ThiefOfHearts

Apparently some random mus'im guy sent seun an email threatening a fatwa on him if he didnt stop tyhe disrespect the Mus'ims were receiving here on Nairaland thus to appease them Seun changed the words

Did it stop the disrespect, any? It was not the disrespect that are being received by individual Mus'lims, but the lies that are being passed up as truth by the Nigerian Christians on the board from their worldwide websites and pundits.

For example, on the You tube I saw the Ashimolowo guy saying that Prophet "Muhammad(as)" was a Christian! But the type of Christian that did not accept Trinity! Isn't this statement a madman statement by itself? "Muhammad(as)", Christian?

This is type of lies that your guys, the Christians, and by the way the nigerian Christians are the worst of this type, are passing around as truth. I for one is always ready to engage the Christians, and want them to proof their veracity. But I disagreed with Seun, but I also understand that he has his own independent decision to make. If only Christians could be honest in the matter of religion. If only that alone!

@4Him: Most does not mean all. Afterall, Women are more than men on earth, always. There will be men in Hell, too. You are a man, David. I fear for you. You need to think about these things and the dire consequences of disbelief. You are young, but you are not naive.

@Molola; Mus'lims accept Jesus, Moses and all the other previous prophets, too.

But for what they truly are. There is no fancy imagination to any one of them. This
is the thing you must take away from the Mus'lims. Just the truth, and nothing fancy.

@Imhotep: Forget Therationa. I am asking you, where did sin originate? Unfortunately, what Aquinas and the pope and all the christian pundits have said are not satisfactory to me. Let just say that I am not smart, so just answer the question, directly. At least to me.

@4Him: And when Nigeria finally has the courage, to get out of the malaisse that plagues her thinking or mindset, I wonder what you will say when she wants Nuclear energy process?

@M_Nwankwo:

1. What is Truth and how do you recognise the Truth? Truth is God. God manifests in its activities and these activities always reflect the nature of the creator. This reflection of God, of eternal Truth carries justice, love, perfection, immutability, unchangebilty. Therefore what ever is true is perfect,

I will respond to the rest later. But I just needed to remind everyone that Jesus himself said that why would anyone referred to him as "good", when the only one who is Good is God? If Jesus was God, I bet he would never have rebuked the speaker who called him 'good'

I see that you never attempted the Verse 29 of Mark 12, which opposes even the probability of Trinity, in all its entirity.

Imhotep, please tell me where in your Aquinas piece could I have the answer to Where did sin originate? Thank you.

Imhotep: Everything! If a question is asked, and you know the answer, go directly to it. Let me help you. If I ask you direction to Nigeria, please do not direct me to Australia. and thats exactly what you did above.

Lead me to Nigeria not drop me off in Australia.

@M_Nwankwo: Thanks for your response. I will just touch up a little to show the incompleteness of the thought that God will have a need for sons, or even a son and that Jesus could ever be more than a mere mortal.

Thanks for your submission. I will address some of the issues you raised as follows:

1. The Grail Message is not a religion. It is simply a revealation of the Truth and Truth trancends all religion. It is left for human beings to examine the Grail Message and take their decision.

If the rail message is not a religion, then definitely it is not part of Christianity. Is this what you are saying? And is the revelation of the truth, as you are saying the grail message is found in a book or just every one who believes in it, receive their own individual revelation? How do you know it is a grail message then and it is the truth? Could it be a decit of the devil, since you may not even have a potential base before you received this revelation and what to reference the truth on, in the first place? Let me make myself clear here: You have to be able to define coloration before you can tell a person what a particular color is rather than other colorations. For example green is definitely different from white.

God gave man the ability of free will and this free will is so free that man can even use it to oppose the will of his maker. However, free will comes with responsiblity. Human beings are free to make a decision but they are bound irrevocably to the consequences of their own decision. Thus it is left for men to decide either to accept or reject the Grail Message. Their experiences as the journey in the creations of God will at some point give them tangible evidence of wheather or not their decision is acccording to the WILL of God.

If this grail message does not bound Ibrahiim, who God called Friend, and from him all prophets after him came, including Jesus, I truly wonder the importance of the grail message. Afterall, God made Moses victorious without the grail Message. Afterall Jesus delivered his ministry and there was no time he mentioned the grail Message. Then Mustafa bin Abdallah delivered his message without mentioning the grail Message. Could this grail message be an organisation like the Masonic and other so called spiritual organizations? Afterall below you are saying that one can be in the fold of the grail message and still a Christian as well. It needs a better and specific ubderstanding from you. You were very generic above.

2. A christian is a follower of the teachings of the son of God, Jesus. It does not refer to an organization, a religion, a church or a sect.

I would therefore take it that a Christian can worship in the Jewish temple and synagogue, just like Jesus did? I will spare you and me the agony of a complex explanation if I put Is'alimic Mosque, and hindu temple and others in the mix for you to provide clarification. But no Christian has ever gone to these places for their regular worship. And is it possible to be a Christian and never attend any church? What when the person dies, which group does the burial, and in your case it will be the grail messege group?

Jesus the son of God proclaimed the complete Truth for HE is the Truth and the truth he proclaimed vibrates in the entire creation. It is not limited to a book but is alive and any human being who genuinely strives to recognise and follow God will at a point in his seeking recognise that Jesus is the son of God. When God created human beings he imbued us with a spiritual faculty, this faculty if left pure can always recognise the WILL of God. One can say that man is hardwired to recognise his creator and even if it takes millenium each person will be permitted very clear, demonstrable evidence that God is, that his son Jesus is and that the Holyspirit is. It is then left for the person to make a decision. Any person who have a personal recognition of Jesus as the son of God and follows the teachings of Jesus is a christian and I am permitted by his grace to be a christian. A christian is not a person who belongs to the religion christianity but one who have recognised the WILL of God and lives according. Every true seeker of God will recognise Jesus as the son of God, will recognise The Great Prophet, Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Elijah etc as genuine messengers or prophets of God.

All that you have said is gotten from the holy Bible, I believe or from the grail message? The only thing I agree with you on is the fact that man is hardwired to know about the existence of God. However, the rest, especially as it concerns the sonship, fathership and holy spiritship, etc are matters of conjecture. You as a scientist have just followed the supposition of others before you and can not provide any cemented proof. But of course, you have the freewill to accept anything as your soul agrees along with the agreement of your heart.

3. There is only one God, one creator and he is known to all his creations as God the Father.

I am concluding from your statement here that those who do not call this God father are not from His creation, then? I am very certain Angel gabreil, Angel Michael just to name a few do not call Him father. How then do you explain this deficiency in the Angels and people who do not call Him father? Or is the true deficiency as to be astray on the people who call Him father?

When God the father decided to bring creations into a existence, a part of God the father became personal and brought the entire creations into a existence. That part of God the father that brought the whole creation into existence is known as the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit brought all creations into existence, governs the whole creations and maintains the whole creations. Part of the activities that emanate from the Holy Spirit is what men called the laws of Nature. Although the Holy Spirit is the part of the Father that became personal in creating, it is still one with the Father.

Uh? But God Himself created the Angels and it was the holy spirit that created Gabreil, etc. God Himself created Adam and it was not the holy spirit that created him. God Himself created Eve and it was not the holy ghost that created him! Ideas like these are tantanimous to not being a true believer in the able power of the only God almighty the creator!

As humanity disobeyed the laws of God, mankind was in the danger of spiritual death because of our sins. The power of the various prophets which God continually sent to various peoples was not strong enough to dispense the darkness and save men from their sins. Their is only one possiblity for help, God has to intervene by sending himself into creation. It is important to note that God is outside his creations, his work. To enter into his work, God has to be incarnated on Earth. Out of love for his creatures, God the Father "severed" a part of himself and incarnated it in a male sex - Jesus of Nazareth. Because Jesus is a part of God the Father he can proclaimed "I am the way, the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through me". Therefore it is only God the father that works as three. Therein lies the concept of Trinity!

Nice try my friend. But no cigar! This explanation above is not more than a concortion to arrive, all of a sudden at Trinity, a word that do not even appear in the Bible! It is what we call a shurdy job, and nothing more than trying to snowball the readers or listeners at all time. Let me tell you why it is not possible to spring Trinity, a word which means 3 gods on any rightly guided soul and expect acceptance; First Jesus himself said that he was not God by his simple verse found in the book of Mark. Read Mark 12 Verse 29 and you will have no doubt, if you are seeking the truth, but to take jesus at his words, even starting on the face value of this verse. I am very clear that between Jesus and anyone in the fold of christianity, from his companions onward to the last man in Christianity, Jesus is the one who knows God better, and he is the one who knows his own relationship better with that God, etc. And it is not the other way around. If Jesus statement is completely opposite to what any person in Christendom says, I will accept Jesus statement and reject all others. How do we know what Jesus said? Each one of them will be dirrectly in line and not opposing any truth that can be attributed to any previous prophet before him.

Of course, it is very difficult to separate what they and Jesus said from the Bible. The Bible has been watered down and rendered impure as it was when each prophet was receiving revelation and was alive to correct would be corrupters. Now this is where you have Qur'an, Is'lam and "Muhammad" come in: He said that he receive revelations, which is called Qur'an. His revelation period extend to the end of his life, from the very first time he received the first few verses. He said that he was receiving it from Gabreil who was the conduit from God directly. In one occassion, he "Muhammad" said that he went to heavens directly and received some verses without gabreil being the conduit this time. In that special revelation, he received the instructions and full procedure of Is'lamic prayer called Salah. Qur'an revealed that Trinity does not occur and God is not three but One. And Jesus is not god, part of god or son of god! If anything is ever going to make this non existing word in the Bible very clear, it is the Qur'an. First the Bible did not have the word in itself, but the Qur'an is bold enough as it contains this word and provide iconoclastic impossibily for its falsehood.

There are many verses of the Qur'an that kills this weak concept of trinity; One verse commanded "Muhammad" to say to the people that if God were to have a son, he "Muhammad" will be the first to worship him. You see that it was negated right from the start. Another states that if God were to take for Himself a son, He could have chosen from any of His creations. Another negation of possibility, that God does not need a human being, Jesus as a son. Another verse tell mankind to consider that if there is more than one God, at least one of the other gods would try to rival God the Almighty. Another verse speaks about a subordinate who has just one Master and another who has many Masters, and each master is trying to fulfill his own agenda, which of the subordinate will have a clear mandate to do the job, the one who has one master or the one who has more masters but each master desires his own agenda to be fulfilled first? The answer is very clear. Another verse speaks about the creation of Jesus as similar to the creation of Adam, a process that start with God's commandment of "Be, and it is!"

These things are revealed to mankind in the Grail Message. The Grail Message reveals that only Jesus, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit can see God the Father since they are parts of HIM.

As I further read your message, it sounds as if there is a cultist undertone in grail message. Alhamdulillah I am a Mus'lim and Is'lam does not permits accepting anything along with God!

4. When God enters his work as happened in the incarnation of Jesus, that incarnated part of God is subject to the laws of God vibrating on earth. Thus he has to be born of a woman, he has to have a human body, he has to be born as a child. he has to eat, drink etc. He has to await the development of his physical body particularly the brain. That the physical body of Jesus was subjected to turtue, murder etc is simply because the body was physical ,and the physical body is just an instrument Jesus used on earth. The GOD that is JESUS is not the physical body. Thus, it is ironic that you are equating Jesus to be his physical body by saying that god died. What felt hunger, what was turtured, what was murdered was the physical body of Jesus not the God that is Jesus. Even the human soul cannot die by destroying the physical body, and yet in order to support your argument, you say that Jesus, a part of the our creator died because his physical body was destroyed. There is not much to say on this since the difference is very clear.

You are right that there is not much to say, but you have just proven my point that even man who is not a prophet, has a soul andthe soul does not die! This is exactly my point because you have not proven beyond anything that you can cull up from the Bible about Jesus! Your grail message is nothing more than concortion from the Bible splices with Occult process. But it is your Bible that says that Jesus died, which is against what the Mus'lim believes. You are the same who called him creator. If he died what you have said was that your creator died. We in Is'lam have a completely different view: God is separate, Jesus is servant/slave and creation God. Jesus did not died on the cross, but at appointed time taken up, body and soul.

5. God is the living Truth and only HIM can proclaim the eternal truth. Jesus proclaimed the eternal truth because he is part of the living truth, he carried the living Truth with himself. Prophets are messagers of God and are creatures. They cannot proclaim the eternal truth since they do not carry withing themself the living truth. Prophets bring recognitions which they gain by opening themselves to the power of God. Thus with prophets, it is a question of what was shown to them from ABOVE and whatever is shown to them is limited by the fact that they are spirits or creatures , not part of the Creator.

I am not arguing with you, but just pointing out inconsistencies in Christian belief. And in your case, the added grail message. I am sure Noah, Ibrahiim, Moses, etc, proclaimed the complete truth to their people. I wonder how you will reconcile Mark 12 Verse 29 in the light of your statement above?

A son of God carries the source within himself, thus in the case of Jesus it is from ABOVE downwards, the very opposite of the way prophets draw their knowlege. A son of God knows the entire happening and can clearly see every thing simmultenouly. A prophet or messenger of God can only see what is shown to him or her and what ever is shown is limited by the fact that the prophet is a creature not part of the creator. No prophet can see things beyound his or her spiritual origin. Trinity lies beyound the grasp of the spiritual.

I am very clear that if I press you hard about many things you say, you will just tell me to believe. This is what I have been reading from you. There is no explanation even in the Bible, except that we must just belief. Finally, you did not know aything about the Al Qur'an, whatsoever. I wonder why Jesus did not know when the world will end?

6. Comparison of the sacred texts of numerous religious do not bring a human spirit one step to heaven. God created men without religion and he will save men without religion too. Religion is at best an endevour by man to understand his maker. This endevour however is not the same as understanding his maker.

I guess somebody should have told Paul and the companions of Jesus and even jesus himself, before they organised Christianity and in the case of Jesus, mentioning building his church on Peter the "Rock!"

The laws of God do not respect religion, races, sexes, colour etc. Murder is murder wheather it is commited by a person who belongs to christianity, The Great Religion, Buddhism etc. Purity, humility, courage, compassion, heroism, and other virtues vibrates in the WILL of God and the religious toga of one who has these virtues is immaterail. In the eyes of God it is how our action, words, thoughts and intuition are for or against Gods will that matters. It is ironic that we waste so much time over trivialities of religions. "Love God with all your heart and Love your Neighbour as your self" Whoever is able to do this is serving God and will definetely attain all the neceaasry recognitions. As a crown for obeying Gods will, such a person will be granted the highest grace of God, the sacred honour to serve God for all etenity. However he who doesnot fulfll these simple injuction of God will be cast out of Gods creations, and will undergo spiritual death no matter his or her religion!

Again, you have killed religion and the process of worship, obedience to God the Almighty and the doing of good deeds for the pleasure of god. What you have said is that an Atheist or Agnostic people will enter the bliss and are in the grace of God, but a religious person who believes, in truth and in the way God has commanded that He be believed and worshipped, but if this person does not have any ability to do "good" but does not do any evil will not have the same condition with God.

But I see that you have not recognised is that God is not just love alone, but He has Anger and punishes, too. Afterall, He created hellfire or what the Christian calls the lake of fire. My point is this, religion is very important, but it has to be the religion ordained for mankind by God Almighty Himself alone! That religion is a process of obedience to god in His commandments; The name of that religion is not Christianity, for Christianity is man made. And it is not judaism as well, now hindu and others. But it is Is'am that is the name of that religion. Go back and do a good research with objectivity of mind and soul. But you have to separate yourself from the misgivngs and true belief does not include the secret society membership.

But the parents are always different entities and separate from their offsprings. As in the case of Jesus, even though I as a Mus'lim do not believe what the Christians call him, except as a prophet and messenger and messiah to the Children of Israel, and the information pointing to these Is'lamic belief is aboundant in the Bible, but I must say that I will argue from the view point of the Christians here to destroy their false belief:

To say that a son and the father can be called the same name is completely wrong, even from human's father and son family ties and relationship. On one hand it is only the son that can be called the father's name, because that will be his last name or surname. The father can not be called the son's name, except as the father of that son. In the case of Jesus if you are to call him anything from the Christians view point, you can not call him Jehovah but son of, ! But is Jehovah his father and does Jehovah needs a son? Should not the son of Jehovah have His nature, for example to be completely different and apart and separate from mankind and jinn and Angels? For in the case of Angels, though they are spiritual beings, but they can become physical beings as well. Afterall some prophets have seen them in physical form; Ibrahiim, Lut, Yaquub, Zachariah, Jesus and Muhammad to name a few. Yet ordinary people have seen them in dreams, for example Joseph the capenter been instructed not to leave his pregnant wife the Virgin Mary. But Jesus while alive with his companions never became a spiritual or celestral being!

But I think at best the relationship of Mary and Joseph was still in a mere proposal and possible acceptance stage, and not husband and wife. As we know no marriage until the marriage ceremony is conducted, which includes dowry, a male guardian presence along with witnesses and the pronouncement of agreement from both supposed spouses. If this had occurred, Mary would never have lasted the first night and in the morning still remaining a virgin, considering the nature od man/woman sexual tendencies immediately after marriage ceremony.

Jesus was a physical person only, and his body had a soul that kept it alive. But we read from the Bible that when he was being crucified, he committed his soul to God and died immediately. Every human dies after the soul is removed (committed away from the body and God takes possession of it away from the body), from the body form that we see, feel and touch. In all Jesus did not behave differently that any previous prophets before him or the only one after him. Each of them needed God to perform the miracles that they performed, events that clearly pointed and help solidified their prophethood in the sight of man. Jesus was not capable of doing anything out of his own 'power' because he had none independent of God. Finally he was not a spiritual being and did not state that from the time that he was born and while he was alive. He even called himself son of man, which clearly showed that he was a mere mortal, a human prophet, like all the human prophets before him.

He also prophesised and spoke about a comforter to come. And as we know prophets always received revelations and what they prophesised is completely true. (Please no Christian should count what you have in your community today, after Jesus as a prophet, except "Muhammad" bin Abdallah (as) who came from adifferent branch of Ibrahiim's legacy). I ask any of you to tell me if the prophetic Comforter is not Rasulullah, then who is he and has the prophetic saying been fulfilled at all, considering the duties of this expected comforter after Jesus? What did he teach you that Jesus did not teach and what did he remind you of the truth spoken by Jesus? I will need a name of this personality that came after Jesus, please.

In all I have done, I have tried to pin down Jesus as a Prophet, a human prophet only. I have in a very clear and unabrasive way indicated that Jesus does not have the nature of God: God is unseen, does not look like human, does not have the characteristics of human, does not have the nature of human, eg death, being born, needing to procreates, eating, drinking, crying, yelling, suffering pain, being betrayed because He knows the future always, being put on trial, being Judged, being persecuted, praying to other God a greater being Who hold all positions of authority, have any doubt as we read that Jesus asked why he was forsaken and, being crucified, dying and lifeless for a period of time. None of these is part of God!

Finally, we will realise that even Angels, one of the spiritual being created by God can not be killed by any human mob. And my proof is the case of the people of Lut. Taking into account of what Smart.o said above about the Spirit leading people who are spiritual to understand the things of the spirit, I will like to know how the Christians can explain that on one hand say that it is the holy ghost that got Mary pregnant, yet they tag God the father the father of Jesus afterwards, ignoring the holy ghost who did the act of getting Mary pregnant, in the first place? Further if the holy ghost was also Jesus and God was also father God, would you not see that Jesus participated in getting his own mother pregnant, so that he could be delivered into this world to save mankind from the sin of the orignal sin itself, yet no christian can guarantee that all Christians, by virtue of their belief in Jesus, the main element of christianity will enter "Heaven" as the Christian call Paradise.

Yet as the Christians say that he was the WORD and was there before the creation of Adam, did nothing to make sure that Adam did not commit this original sin that he Jesus came to the world to eradicate by the death on the cross, as a willing lamb led to the slaughter house to be slaugheted! But Jesus got to the world, began preaching telling his listeners to worship God alone as we see in Mark 12 Verse 29. And of course telling them that Only God the Lord can forgive, in the Lord's prayer, which started surprisingly by our father!

Finally we see that Jesus begged God by his prayer in the garden of Geshimane that he was not willing to die, hence in my own objective opinion, he lost the status of 'willing lamb.' We also understand that he asked his companions to buy ammonitions and arms with the money that they get from the sales of their cloaks. We see here that Jesus was not a meek man who is only too peaceful, regardless of any condition. We see that as he was being tried he puts on a good defense and it was the evilness and political correctness of the judge that swayed him to find him guilty. Thats the human nature of Jesus. We also see that Jesus was reported to have suffered all the way to the place where he was hung.

And on the cross, we see that he was tired and exhaused (two qualities that do not befit God, and not even His Angels), and before he died complained bitterly why God had left him to go through this type of ordeal (a quality that does not befit a true believer of God and definitely a prophet. A proof of my statement is the suffering of Job and also the suffering of Jonah as well. Just to make my position clear look back to the condition of Joseph; none of them complained as to ask God why are you making me go through this experience? Yet the Christians consider these men just prophet at best, yet Jesus who complained, a god, part of god and son of god at the same time being a prophet and even son of man!). And finally committing his soul/spirit to God's hand. Same condition as any man.

No soul is taking from any man to render the man dead, except that God permits it. Look at the case of Saddam Hussein, when his death came that was when he died, otherwise he should have been killed when he was captured in the hole where he hid himself. Same condition with Abacha or Abiola or Awolowo. It will be the same condition with you, or me or anyone else.

In conclusion, Jesus was a prophet alright, but to say he is son of God or God himself or 1/3 God, those were fallacies and pure conjectures. There is no single reasonable proof to support such ideas! God is capable of handling all affairs. He needs not behave like a human, who He creates. The humans can not behave like Him, since the humans have limited power. Jesus had limited power and a proof of this was that he could not tell anyone about the exact hour when he was asked. Only God has that information that was his response, confirming to his listeners that he did not have it and clearly making a declaration that he was not God. Jesus behaved in every respect like human prophet and performed his duty in humanly quality.

@M_Nwankwo:

Thanks for your kind words. Thank also for inviting me to examine the great religion. I have said previously that I belong to no religion. Truth is Truth and it trancends all religions. In my process of seeking God, I have examined seriously all the known religions including The Great Religion. That was years ago. In all of them I found gems of the truth but not the totality of the Truth. My seeking continued until years later I had a spiritual encounter that led me to the work "In The Light of Truth - The Grail Message" I will not go into the personal spiritual encounter that led me to the Grail Message in these pages. Suffice to mention that that encounter transformed me and Gods grace allowed me to sense the will of God. Thus today, I only study the Grail Message and associated writings. When sacred texts of world religions are offered to me, I take them and do not read them or I simply decline. The reason being that I have found the totality of Truth in the Grail Message and also have being permitted the grace to "see" things that are closed to the average person. Recognition of the whole truth makes me to to state in my posts as follows:

I admire your conviction. But i think the grail message at best is a subset of Christianity. However I believe that the true holy grail itself is nothing other than the untorned letter from what Prophet "Muhammad" (as) commissioned to the rulers of the world powers when God Almighty commanded him to call the whole world to the religion of "Is'lam." Some kings/rulers tore their copies as they were delivered and invited to enter "Is'lam." When the emissaries of the messenger told him that a ruler tore his invitation letter, the Prophet invoked God to tear the kingdom of that ruler. And in no time, the kingdom of that ruler was decimated.

Finally, a ruler who had not torn his own letter of Invitation from "Muhammad", kept the copy intact. And his kingdom remained intact and not decimated. Do your research. You may find out the truth. The real truth. Sometimes one thinks he/she has gotten to the end of the ride, but it is still many stops to the destination!

1. That the concept of Trinity is true

I wonder if you mean the Trinity that is more theoretical in Christianity than substantive, or the ones in the older world religions, eg. Hinduism, etc? How do you have a painting that is not titled and then somebody else wrote a history book and from it, you find the title based on the coloring pattern, as an example? If you are not a Christian how can you believe the concept of Christian trinity, unless you are fooling us by your disingenous answer, claiming that you are not a christian, or you are not sure what the essence of that Christian thought is concerning it? I wonder what happened when god died, I mean god the son? Doesn't that weakened and cheapened the authority and power of the "god"?

2. That Jesus is the son of God, a part of God or God the son. He is not a prophet since the inner core of all prohets known to man is spirit and not divine unsubstantiate. All prohets are creatures of God but Jesus is not a creature but part of the creator.

So when Jesus was arrested, tried and passed a death judgement on his head, tortured on the way to the hanging or crucification, etc, you are saying that son of god, part of god and God Himself went through all of these? Have you considered what Jesus himself said in Mark 12 Verse 29, which is contrary to the fact that he could be any part of God, son, part of or God? Do you also know that jesus himself described himself as a prophet, hence to deny him what he said about himself, is truly not knowing anything that he said about himself, or disregarding him completely? To say that Jesus was not part of the creations, as a human being shows from your judgement that God is more than One and true Creator are more than One. Then there is no wonder that we find Christian ideas as unconsolidated, but of course, in your case, you are not a Christian!

3. That The Great Prophet, Buddah, Lao Tse, Zoroster, Moses, Lorber, Elijah, Bahaullah, Daniel, Krishna and many others are all genuine prophets of God. All these prophets gave recognitions that if they have been preserved pure by their followers would have led to the to the whole Truth as explained by Jesus and the Grail Message.

If one were to accept your hypothesis, what happened to the whole Truth as explained by "Muhammad" who came after Jesus? Afterall, if you take it that Jesus truth as he explained it have been preserved, I wonder i you got that truth from the Bible or somewhere else? And finally, what about the truth that are missing in the bible that "Muhammad (as)" has in the Qur'an that "Allah" revealed to him?

Wouldn't this make Al Qur'an superior to the Bible or at least more detailed? Let me give you an example: Moses led the Children of Israel out of Egypt. But at the red sea, Pharaoh wanted to overtake them, and returned them to the slavery they just left. Moses used his staff to open 12 tribal pathways to them in the sea, to cross and escape Pharaoh's wrath. As they crossed, Pharaoh ws drunk with rage and power to return them. So he went he and his army into the water, and tried to cross in the same way as the Children of Israel to the other side. When they all were in the middle of the sea, the walls of water collapsed on the army and pharaoh and perished.

Here is the difference between Is'lamic understanding versus Biblical understanding of the same incident.

1) The Muslims say that Pharaoh went in the sea and perished with his army. But the Christians say he did not perish, but do not explain if he went in the water with his army in the first place. And if he did, how did he escape and everyone perished, including all his generals. if he did not go into the water, one will ask the question, how a king can lead an escortion, yet refuses to lead by example? Even a Captain of a sinking ship is always in the last saved or he perishes with the ship.

2) The Muslims say that the water threw out the lifeless body of Pharaoh, on a hill/high place, so that the Children of Israel can see that their great enemy is dead, therefore their hearts became peaceful and knew that there will not be Pharaoh running after them. But since the Christians do not believe that he did not perish, how was it that he did not mount another campaign against them, regardless of the difficulty, based on his previous actions?

3) I think you should ask the Egyptians how the pharaoh of Moses died and where they found him? You will realise that Is'lamic explanation is correct nd what is in the Bible is incorrect.

I wish you well. You are the one who needs to change your destiny, God then will change your destiny. Amiin.


Once again, thanks for your warm thoughts. I wish strenghth and stay blessed.

@Imhotep: Uh? Thats poor. And your guy Aquinas provided a poor response to Therationa's question, above.

@Therationa: You love to beat up on the Christianity and christians, too much! I do not think that Christianity and Christians know how sin was created and why it is allowed to exist by God the Almighty the Creator. Since Jesus himself participated the Lord's prayer, as if he was commanded to recite it himself and also teach it to his companions, we know that Jesus was even concerned about sinning. Further it is amazing that the prayer was named the Lord's prayer, but it immediately starts with Our father! There is so much inconsistencies in Christendom that I doubt that they will know the truth even if it stares them down, without anything in between them and the truth.

I know that they call the devil Lucifer, former Angel. Yet the nature of the Angels is to completely obey the Creator. Further since they claim that Lucifer has other Angels with him in the "revolt", I wonder if they care to name those or some of these Angels? t is no wonder that they continue to attach Original sin concept to mankind, and when they are asked what will be the fate of a child who died before knowing right and wrong or being able to be Baptist, since Jesus was baptisted at the age of 13, I will take this age as a benchmark, they are always stomped and waffle in the weak and animic answer they provide. Each time shifting the goalpost, because they just not know.

Anyone prepare to takes this one head-on?

What I have done above is to kill your hope of expecting a good response from the Christians. I will provide Is'lamic view, directly from the Qur'an. You will see that it makes great sense if you throw away your initial misgivings that there is no God, for all my premises of explanation is directly tied to the truth that God exists, and will judge mankind; man and jinns in particular.

How could he NOT have known that his attempts at eradicating sin would fail miserably?

If he has not been successful in dealing with sin on earth and in heaven, should we believe him when he say that THE NEW HEAVEN AND THE NEW EARTH will be free from sin?

What is going to stop the angels from starting the process all over again?

I see that you are talking about a non all knowing entity, above. But my God the Lord who created everything knows everything. He is the only One who knows the future, because He is the Lord of the future as well. And a proof of this is that He will be the only Judge on the day of Judgement, rewarding in Mercy or punishing as only He determines. Afterall, death will occur to everyone, also a future event as well as the judgement day event.

The promise of God the Lord of all creation is true. So when before Adam was created, since it is the condition of human being that really concerns you, God had saved Iblis (a jinn) from destructions among those who were destroyed. He had acted as a believer, relatively to the quality of his community. Now Iblis was in the community of the Angels and worshiiped fervently, but God knew his heart. So when God said that He was going to man as a 'Viceroy,' in the earth the Angels were worried because even they do not the unseen, in the context of God knowledge.  But God told them tht He knows wht they the Angels do not know. (Please bear in mind that in all of these stages and beyond, until the birth of Jesus was announced to Mary by the Angel, Jesus do not exist and the Christians can not provide any proof of his existence).

So when Adam was formed as a shape just lying there, Iblis who is not an Angel but a Jinn was the only one who continues to be curious about this pile of mud. The reason is that the evil that laid in the core of Iblis heart was brought forth by the start of the creation of Adam. Iblis saw that attention is now on this thing rather on him. Of course Iblis has a free will exercised in goodliness before and now at the beginning of Adam's creation, exercised it in an evil way. He began to search and get curious wanting to know the weaknesses of Adam.

So when Adam became a living soul, soul and body together, God commanded the community of Angels (Iblis the Jinn was in this community, as a minority and of different nature), to bow to Adam. This was obedience in command to God, but the process was just prostration to Adam the new being. All the Angels prostrated, but Iblis refused. God Almighty asked him why he did not prostrate? Iblis said that he was created from Smokelss fire (a sign of discrimination) and Adam was created from dirt (a sign of superiority to Adam). The Lord God Almighty then said to Iblis to get out of His presence, and Iblis who is now Shaitan said that he wanted God to allow him to remain until the end of time so that he can deceive children of Adam from the straight path. God Almighty granted him the reprieve until end of time. God said that Shaitan will not be able to seduce those of Adam's children who keep on the straight path. (Note that throughout this process, Shaitan, even while Iblis did not seek repentance).

Now Eve was created and God instructed them to not go near the tree and the consequence is that they will be evil doers. But Shaitan was finding a way because of his evil in his heart to deceive them. So he seduced these innocent souls to disobey God as they went to the tree, against God's commandment to them. This act of disobedience earned them, Adam and Eve (legally married by the way), being sent out of paradise and down to earth. Of course, God warned them now that they and their Children should be aware of the open enemity that Shaitan has for them. As they got to the earth they were very remorseful and and God inspired them with a process of forgiveness. They seeked it and God accepted it (So you see there was a time that Adam and Eve, did not sin. That was prior to being instructed against getting near the tree. We as human have this periods as well. This period is from birth and all the way to puberty), from them. The other side is that Shaitan who used to be Iblis never seeked forgiveness and never repented. But continues to device all kind of deceits to make human go astray. (You will see here that there is no Original sin with human or even jinn, except sin is an act of disobedience, after instruction have been provided against it).

But God shows His mercy by also giving mankind a process to seek redress, forgiveness and repentance. God therefore accepts repentance, again and again, from whoever seeks it. But it must be sincer and it must be seeked up to but just before the procss of death begins.

IF YOU HAVE ANY FURTHER CLARIFICATION, IS'LAM WILL PROVIDE IT, INSHAALLAH.

To all my brothers and sisters in Is'lam: I am grateful to "Allah" that we are Mus'lims. May "Allah" makes us Mumiin. Amin. Lets just try our best for "Allah's" Pleasure, in the way of His Messenger (as). I love you all sincerely and appreciate your friendship. I am particularly grateful that we all have one another to lean on. I have leaned on every one of you and God has provided you as buffer for me. May He have Mercy on everyone of us and forgives us our sins and count us among who He favors in this world and thereafter.

@4Him; I thought you at least understand that I will tell you the truth. Well check verse 6 of the Qur'an as listed below.

The Chapters of the Qur'an:

AL-FATIHA (THE OPENING)
AL-BAQARA (THE COW)
AAL-E-IMRAN (THE FAMILY OF 'IMRAN, THE HOUSE OF 'IMRAN)
AN-NISA (WOMEN)
AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE, THE TABLE SPREAD)
AL-ANAAM (CATTLE, LIVESTOCK)
AL-ARAF (THE HEIGHTS)
AL-ANFAL (SPOILS OF WAR, BOOTY)
AT-TAWBA (REPENTANCE, DISPENSATION)
YUNUS (JONAH)
HUD (HUD)
YUSUF (JOSEPH)
AR-RAD (THE THUNDER)
IBRAHIM (ABRAHAM)
AL-HIJR (AL-HIJR, STONELAND, ROCK CITY)
AN-NAHL (THE BEE)
AL-ISRA (ISRA', THE NIGHT JOURNEY, CHILDREN OF ISRAEL)
AL-KAHF (THE CAVE)
MARYAM (MARY)
TA-HA (TA-HA)
AL-ANBIYA (THE PROPHETS)
AL-HAJJ (THE PILGRIMAGE)
AL-MUMENOON (THE BELIEVERS)
AN-NOOR (THE LIGHT)
AL-FURQAN (THE CRITERION, THE STANDARD)
ASH-SHUARA (THE POETS)
AN-NAML (THE ANT, THE ANTS)
AL-QASAS (THE STORY, STORIES)
AL-ANKABOOT (THE SPIDER)
AR-ROOM (THE ROMANS, THE BYZANTINES)
LUQMAN (LUQMAN)
AS-SAJDA (THE PROSTRATION,WORSHIP, ADORATION)
AL-AHZAB (THE CLANS, THE COALITION,THE COMBINED FORCES)
SABA (SABA, SHEBA)
FATIR (THE ANGELS, ORIGNATOR)
YA-SEEN (YA-SEEN)
AS-SAAFFAT (THOSE WHO SET THE RANKS,DRAWN UP IN RANKS)
SAD (THE LETTER SAD)
AZ-ZUMAR (THE TROOPS, THRONGS)
AL-GHAFIR (THE FORGIVER (GOD) )
FUSSILAT (EXPLAINED IN DETAIL)
ASH-SHURA (COUNCIL, CONSULTATION)
AZ-ZUKHRUF (ORNAMENTS OF GOLD, LUXURY)
AD-DUKHAN (SMOKE)
AL-JATHIYA (CROUCHING)
AL-AHQAF (THE WIND-CURVED SANDHILLS, THE DUNES)
MUHAMMAD (MUHAMMAD)
AL-FATH (VICTORY, CONQUEST)
AL-HUJRAAT (THE PRIVATE APARTMENTS, THE INNER APARTMENTS)
QAF (THE LETTER QAF)
ADH-DHARIYAT (THE WINNOWING WINDS)
AT-TUR (THE MOUNT)
AN-NAJM (THE STAR)
AL-QAMAR (THE MOON)
AR-RAHMAN (THE BENEFICENT, THE MERCY GIVING)
AL-WAQIA (THE EVENT, THE INEVITABLE)
AL-HADID (THE IRON)
AL-MUJADILA (SHE THAT DISPUTETH, THE PLEADING WOMAN)
AL-HASHR (EXILE, BANISHMENT)
AL-MUMTAHINA (SHE THAT IS TO BE EXAMINED, EXAMINING HER)
AS-SAFF (THE RANKS, BATTLE ARRAY)
AL-JUMUA (THE CONGREGATION, FRIDAY)
AL-MUNAFIQOON (THE HYPOCRITES)
AT-TAGHABUN (MUTUAL DISILLUSION, HAGGLING)
AT-TALAQ (DIVORCE)
AT-TAHRIM (BANNING, PROHIBITION)
AL-MULK (THE SOVEREIGNTY, CONTROL)
AL-QALAM (THE PEN)
AL-HAAQQA (THE REALITY)
AL-MAARIJ (THE ASCENDING STAIRWAYS)
NOOH (NOOH)
AL-JINN (THE JINN)
AL-MUZZAMMIL (THE ENSHROUDED ONE, BUNDLED UP)
AL-MUDDATHTHIR (THE CLOAKED ONE, THE MAN WEARING A CLOAK)
AL-QIYAMA (THE RISING OF THE DEAD, RESURRECTION)
AL-INSAN (MAN)
AL-MURSALAT (THE EMISSARIES, WINDS SENT FORTH)
AN-NABA (THE TIDINGS, THE ANNOUNCEMENT)
AN-NAZIAT (THOSE WHO DRAG FORTH, SOUL-SNATCHERS)
ABASA (HE FROWNED)
AT-TAKWIR (THE OVERTHROWING)
AL-INFITAR (THE CLEAVING, BURSTING APART)
AL-MUTAFFIFIN (DEFRAUDING, THE CHEATS, CHEATING)
AL-INSHIQAQ (THE SUNDERING, SPLITTING OPEN)
AL-BUROOJ (THE MANSIONS OF THE STARS, CONSTELLATIONS)
AT-TARIQ (THE MORNING STAR, THE NIGHTCOMER)
AL-ALA (THE MOST HIGH, GLORY TO YOUR LORD IN THE HIGHEST)
AL-GHASHIYA (THE OVERWHELMING, THE PALL)
AL-FAJR (THE DAWN, DAYBREAK)
AL-BALAD (THE CITY, THIS COUNTRYSIDE)
ASH-SHAMS (THE SUN)
AL-LAIL (THE NIGHT)
AD-DHUHA (THE MORNING HOURS, MORNING BRIGHT)
AL-INSHIRAH (SOLACE, CONSOLATION, RELIEF)
AT-TIN (THE FIG, THE FIGTREE)
AL-ALAQ (THE CLOT, READ)
AL-QADR (POWER, FATE)
AL-BAYYINA (THE CLEAR PROOF, EVIDENCE)
AZ-ZALZALA (THE EARTHQUAKE)
AL-ADIYAT (THE COURSER, THE CHARGERS)
AL-QARIA (THE CALAMITY, THE STUNNING BLOW, THE DISASTER
AT-TAKATHUR (RIVALRY IN WORLD INCREASE, COMPETITION
AL-ASR (THE DECLINING DAY, EVENTIDE, THE EPOCH)
AL-HUMAZA (THE TRADUCER, THE GOSSIPMONGER)
AL-FIL (THE ELEPHANT)
QURAISH (WINTER, QURAYSH)
AL-MAUN (SMALL KINDNESSES, ALMSGIVING, HAVE YOU SEEN)
AL-KAUTHER (ABUNDANCE, PLENTY)
AL-KAFIROON (THE DISBELIEVERS, ATHEISTS)
AN-NASR (SUCCOUR, DIVINE SUPPORT)
AL-MASADD (PALM FIBRE, THE FLAME)
AL-IKHLAS (SINCERITY)
AL-FALAQ (THE DAYBREAK, DAWN)
AN-NAS (MANKIND)

@Router: As Salaamualaykum war Rahmatullah. I thank you and all those who have contributed. May the Lord and God the Creator of all things, known and unknown guide us and have mercy on all of us. Amin. I also ask God the Almighty Lord the creator to soften the hearts of our brothers and sisters in mankind who are not believers, yet to accept guidance.

MayGod Almighty guide our tongue and heart in goodness. Whatever that I say that is good is from Al Alim and His Messenger (as). And whatever that I may say that is bad is from me and Shaitan. I seek refugee in the Most Powerful against Shaitan the rejected. And I ask the only One who can truly forgive to forgive me and all of you believers.

May our hearts be strengthened and made firm in His religion. Amin. And to the non Mus'lims, eg 4Him, no scholar of Islam will claim scholarship in from of his peers. But truly I am a very low level student of Is'lam. Having said that, the Messenger wax reported stating that whoever knows a verse of Qur'an or a single hadith shoiuld teach it. This is scholarship. And as to the question of Music in Is'lam as you have proposed it, my brothers and sisters who had responded to you have done a wonder job and have addressed the matter, properly. I just must add that truth is always known by a good heart and there is desire by that heart to practice it. Whereas, a diseased heart tries to suppress and deny the truth.

Progressive thinking in Is'lam

There is no legal code which aims to be applicable to all communities in all periods of time can give in advance a ruling for every situation human life may present. As human life develops, certain things or practices are discarded while new ones are adopted. Changing situations require different rulings. This is the reason the lawmaking authority in every country provides for the repeal of past laws and the enactment of new ones in their place. This cannot be done in Is'lam, because the authority to legislate belongs to Allah. No one can repeal Allah's law. How do we, then, deal with developing situations?

To answer this, I have two Hadiths to quote: The Prophet sent his companion, Moath ibn Jabal, to the Yemen as a governor. Before Moath left, the Prophet asked him, "How will you adjudicate in matters that will be put to you?" Moath answered, "According to Allah's Book (i.e. the Qur'an)." The Prophet then asked him, "What if you find nothing to guide you?" Moath answered, "Then according to the Sunnah of Allah's Messenger." The Prophet repeated his question. "What if you find nothing to help you?" Moath said, "I will use my discretion, making every effort to arrive at the right decision." The Prophet said: "Praise be to "Allah" who has guided Allah's messenger to implement what pleases "Allah" and His Messenger."

The Prophet is quoted to have said: "My nation will never agree on something which is wrong." These two Hadiths give us the basis on which analogy and consensus rely as legitimate sources of rulings. We note that in the first Hadith, the Prophet refers to the possibility that a ruler or a judge may find nothing in the Qur'an or the Sunnah to help him arrive at the right ruling in a certain case. The method of deduction explained by Moath is one of scholarly discretion. What this means is that he will consider what may be analogous to the case in hand of matters that have a clear judgment in the Qur'an and the Sunnah. This then is scholarly discretion. The Prophet was pleased with this method and stated that it was satisfactory to "Allah" and to himself.

The second Hadith is clear. It does not mean that every single person in the Muslim community should agree to something for the consensus to take place. What it means is that the scholars in a particular time may unanimously arrive at a certain decision. If they do, then that decision cannot be wrong. A clear case which explains both matters is the verdict on smoking. When the question whether tobacco smoking is permissible in Is'lam was put to scholars in the past, many of them did not object strongly to it, although some pointed out that it was reprehensible or discouraged, due to its smell and other factors. However, when more recently the question was put to a number of scholars together with the medical evidence about the damage tobacco can cause to health, a verdict of total prohibition was returned by an overwhelming majority of them.

Obviously, there is no specific ruling in the Qur'an or the Sunnah to tell us that smoking tobacco, as such, is forbidden. Scholars, however, relied on the general rules which apply to Islamic law, such as the one which states that: "No damage may be caused, whether to self or to others." Since smoking causes serious health damage, it is considered forbidden. Some scholars also added that a smoker should not go to the mosque because of the bad smell of tobacco. In this, they have drawn on the analogy with garlic and onion. The Prophet says that a person who has just eaten garlic or onion should not attend congregational prayer in order not to annoy other worshippers. All this is a ruling based on analogy.

Deeds will be judged according to intentions, and everyone will get what he intended ,

Among the entertainments which may comfort the soul, please the heart, and refresh the ear is singing. Is'lam permits singing under the condition that it not be in any way obscene or harmful to Islamic morals. There is no harm in its being accompanied by music which is not exciting.In order to create an atmosphere of joy and happiness, singing is recommended on festive occasions such as the days of 'Eid, weddings and wedding feasts, births, 'aqiqat (the celebration of the birth of a baby by the slaughter of sheep), and on the return of a traveler.'Aishah narrated that when a woman was married to an Ansari man, the Prophet (peace be on him) said, " 'Aishah, did they have any entertainment? The Ansar are fond of entertainment.'' (Reported by al-Bukhari.)

Ibn 'Abbas said, " 'Aishah gave a girl relative of hers in marriage to a man of the Ansar. The Prophet (peace be on him) came and asked, 'Did you send a singer along with her?' 'No,' said 'Aishah. The Messenger of "Allah" (peace be on him) then said, The Ansar are a people who love poetry. You should have sent along someone who would sing, 'Here we come, to you we come, greet us as we greet you.' " (Reported by Ibn Majah.)'Aishah narrated that during the days of Mina, on the day of 'Eid al-Adha, two girls were with her, singing and playing on a hand drum. The Prophet (peace be on him) was present, listening to them with his head under a shawl. Abu Bakr then entered and scolded the girls. The Prophet (peace be on him), uncovering his face, told him, "Let them be, Abu Bakr. These are the days of 'Eid." (Reported by al-Bukhari and Muslim.)

In his book, Ihya ulum al-deen, (In the quarter on "Habits", in the book Listening to Singing.), Imam al-Ghazzali mentions the ahadith about the singing girls, the Abyssinians playing with spears in the Prophet's Mosque, the Prophet's encouraging them by saying, "Carry on, O Bani Arfidah," his asking his wife, 'Aishah, "Would you like to watch?" and standing there with her until she herself became tired and went away, and 'Aishah's playing with dolls with her friends. He then says:All these ahadith are reported by al-Bukhari and Muslim in the two Sahihs, and they clearly prove that singing and playing are not haram. From them we may deduce the following:

First: The permissibility of playing; the Abyssinians were in the habit of dancing and playing.
Second: Doing this in the mosque.
Third: The Prophet's saying, 'Carry on, O Bani Arfidah,' was a command and a request that they should play; then how can their play be considered haram?
Fourth: The Prophet (peace be on him) prevented Abu Bakr and 'Umar from interrupting and scolding the players and singers. He told Abu Bakr that 'Eid was a joyous occasion and that singing was a means of enjoyment.
Fifth: On both occasions he stayed for a long time with 'Aishah, letting her watch the show of the Abyssinians and listening with her to the singing of the girls. This proves that it is far better to be good-humored in pleasing women and children with games than to express such disapproval of such amusements out of a sense of harsh piety and asceticism.

Sixth: The Prophet (peace be on him) himself encouraged 'Aishah by asking her, "Would you like to watch?" (Reported by al-Bukhari and Muslim.)
Seventh: The permissibility of singing and playing on the drum,
It is reported that many Companions of the Prophet (may Allah be pleased with them) as well as second generation Muslim scholars used to listen to singing and did not see anything wrong with it. As for the ahadith which have been reported against singing, they are all weak and have been shown by researchers to be unsound. The jurist Abu Bakr al-'Arabi says, "No sound hadith is available concerning the prohibition of singing," while Ibn Hazm says, "All that is reported on this subject is false and fabricated. "

However, since singing is in many cases is associated with drinking parties and night clubs, many scholars have declared it to be haram or at least makruh. They state that singing constitutes that kind of idle talk which is mentioned in the ayah,
And among the people is the one who buys idle talk (at the expense of his soul) in order to lead (people) astray from the path of Allah without knowledge, holding it in mockery; for such there will be a humiliating punishment. (Quran 31:6)

Ibn Hazm says :

This verse condemns a particular behavior, that of doing something to mock the path of "Allah". Anyone who does this is an unbeliever; if he even should buy a copy of the Qur'an, doing so in order to make it the object of his mockery and thereby leading people astray, he would be an unbeliever. It is this type of behavior which is condemned by Allah and not the idle talk in which one may indulge for mere relaxation, without intending to lead people astray from the path of "Allah".
Ibn Hazm also refutes the argument of those who say that since singing is not of "the truth" it must be of "error," referring to the verse, "And what is beyond the truth except error?" (Quran 10:32). He comments,

The Messenger of "Allah" (peace be on him) said, 'Deeds will be judged according to intentions, and everyone will get what he intended.' (Reported by al-Bukhari and Muslim.). Accordingly, the one who listens to singing with the intention of using it in support of a sin is a sinner, and this holds true of anything other than singing (as well), while one who listens to singing with the intention of refreshing his soul in order to gain strength to do his duty toward "Allah" Ta'ala and to do good deeds, is a good and obedient servant of "Allah", and his action is of the truth. And he who listens to singing intending neither obedience nor disobedience is doing something neutral and harmless, which is similar to going to the park and walking around, standing by a window and looking at the sky, wearing blue or green cloths, and so on.

However, there are some limitations to be observed in the matter of singing:
1. The subject matter of songs should not be against the teachings of Islam. For example, if the song is in praise of wine, and it invites people to drink, singing or listening to it is haram.
2. Although the subject matter itself may not be against the Islamic teachings, the manner of singing may render it haram; this would be the case, for example, if the singing were accompanied by suggestive sexual movement.
3. Is'lam fights against excess and extravagance in anything, even in worship; how, then, can it tolerate excessive involvement with entertainment? Too much time should not be wasted in such activities; after all, what is time but life itself? One cannot dispute the fact that spending time in permissible activities consumes time which ought to be resaved for carrying out religious obligations and doing good deeds. It is aptly said, "There is no excess except at the expense of a neglected duty."

4. Each individual is the best judge of himself. If a certain type of singing arouses one's passions, leads him towards sin, excites the animal instincts, and dulls spirituality, he must avoid it, thus closing the door to temptations.
5. There is unanimous agreement that if singing is done in conjunction with haram activities - for example, at a drinking party, or if it is mixed with obscenity and sin - it is haram. The Prophet (peace be on him) warned of a severe punishment for people who sing or listen to singing in such a situation when he said,
Some people of my ummah will drink wine, calling it by another name, while they listen to singers accompanied by musical instruments. Allah will cause the earth to swallow them and will turn some of them into monkeys and swine. (Reported by Ibn Majah.)

This does not mean that they will be physically transformed into the bodies and outward form of monkeys and swine but rather in heart and soul, carrying the heart of a monkey and the soul of a pig in their human bodies."
Excerpted from the book "The Lawful and the Prohibited in Islam" by Yusuf Al-Qaradawi. (Photos, not part of the original article.)

I believe that the fact that women are required to cover in a specified manner in Surah Mumiin and Azhab, are enough evidence to caution all of us, otherwise, one will transgress the boundary set by "Allah". Afterall, if the women are not Mus'lims, they will be a means of trial for the Mus'lims, male and female who are in their company or attend the Musical stagings.