₦airaland Forum

A001:
Have you read his history given in the book? It doesn't seem so to me.

You can't say that categorically unless you first read what you're doing a critique of. That's the logical thing.

The Luwabi's histories given in that book don't look like a fiction to me. They're too detailed to be merely regarded as such.

Even the histories of Ifa, Afri (I suppose Africa got its name from him), and many other people in the book don't look like fictions to me also (even though I'm yet to read similar accounts from other sources except the book), because of the etimologies of some names given in the book and the level of details.

The level of details is deep.

The book were reviewed,and had seen the book being analysed.

Secondly,I have found myself in different scholars class,which discussed renowned personalities in Yoruba land. So,I can say some about Luwabi as non existence as human figure.

Thirdly, I stated the historical king list in Ijebu Ode where Luwa or Oluwa existed as a divine king whereby his descendant linked biologically to Odua came from Ileife to be made a king after arrival in Ijebu ode. There is no such figure or king acknowledge as Oluwabi except God Almighty. Plainly,the name is an attribute of godliness. Peradventure,you have knowledge of where his descendants live in Yorubaland then shoot.

Fifthly, every crown wearing especially beadedcrownsarewelldocumentedinIleifeevenamongthehouses-clans,so there is no hidden places for falsification. Thesedifferent towns founders are well documented.


Fifthly, Orunmiela is not a man stated in Professsor Oluwole Sophie as seemingly compared to Socratesas I had stated earlier and did not die. He categorically stated it.The same Orunmiela is identified as Ifa,ikin,ela,oyigiyigi,oyigi etc.


Sixthly, Professor Oluwole's is obviously not from esoteric angle because she picked figurative expression as conclusion on Orunmiela's identity.

Infact, she actually thought,orunmiela being called son of stone is same as Socrates's father,whereas same book eji ogbe which she made reference, is also stated that orunmiela is the mighty stone in the deep sea.

Therefore I do not have anything against a renowned Professor on her conventional written book for students to gain some knowledge from but for these students to use such book as a point of contact with Orunmiela as a mere philosopher is false.

The same orunmiela posited in some Ifaodu corpus, that he ate up death and can not die. This is a personality who openly stated mysterious things, which are not human.

If you talk about big bang theory, the spirit being spoke about it. If you talk creation from theological angle, orunmiela , the small, unseenable personality talk about it.

Seriously,it is a child play to compress orunmiela into a tiny angle.

Crystyano:
I know they exist


But I don't consider them as anything but the vomit of several people

If you dim it so. There are more to it.

Crystyano:
Don't bother to check Otem's book


He has shown his confusion by claiming to know as well as assuming something at the same time

Lol . Infact, Ifaodu chapters cannot be known by an individual in his lifetime. Even the whole world can't know it all.

The word Ifaodu is simply the big bang manifestation of sacred God. More literally meaning is, Hidden mysterious God's word.

While Odù is often referred to by many historically as wife of orunmiela from Ifaodu stanza who birthed the sixteen identified identities (figurative expression) in Ifaodu .

Crystyano:
You say they have flaws

Well
I think they shouldn't be taken seriously at all

transliteration and translation are some few flaws they have. And not that their religion didn't exist.

Infact, Islamic Jihadists chased away Orthodox Christianity from Egypt which was replaced with Arabic language and way of life.

Beside, Saint Mark brought both ritual way of life and pure God worship to Egypt (old and new testament.

Herein he was the first Pope in Africa. In Ifaodu, oba maki/makin exist also as king maki/makin, accordingly was crowned as king in Iranj

A001:
Based on the histories of Luwabi I read in that book, I posit there's a strong possibility Luwabi had existed in the past as Otem says.

His histories in the book look quite profound and convincing. Considering the fact that most of the histories of our great forefathers are lost or were never recorded/documented, I'm inclined to believe Otem's account on the issue is true or close to the truth.

Luwabi is a fiction if indeed there is critical analysis on such personality. If you have contrary view,then do you have panegyric that make reference to him.

Although, I am familiar with Oluwa history of Ijebu ode. Even as it seems that Ijebu ode is of Odua dynastic descendants but not true because Ileife have all princes or princesses whose descendants moved out to be kings in different places or settlements.

Ijebu ode is ancestrally of Obatala lineage, despite intermarriages between different lineages with Odua's.

So, it is obvious that the story of odua descendants being the founder of the kingly lineage in Ijebu ode was legitimacize by odua bloodline.

Crystyano:
Stop vomitting like this...


It's not only Nigerians/Africans that are Christians.....



You don't see people of other continents saying stuff like this no matter what



Afterall
It was never everyone in Africa that was a Christian/Muslim and it will never be everyone



I actually don't think it makes any sense to say any form of spirituality is a 'must' whether African or not

Not a must to accept Christianity or Islam though the most influential religion on earth are the two. So, I do like to face fact and not sentiments.

Mind you, these two religion are actually interwoven with Yoruba Ifaodu religious angle, in which Stanza in some Ifaodu rejected Islam and called it a bad name.

My point here is that even the two religion have some flaws even if they both preach alike with some form of difference in ideology

A001:
I actually enjoyed reading the literature.

I don't really think the comparison is out place since both of them were ancient philosophers that greatly influenced their people and culture during and thousands of years after their lifetime.

The book draws important parallels between the classic European philosophy and the traditional African philosophy.

I don't think comparing Socrates to Orúnmìlá made the latter less influential in any way.

The Ifá body of knowledge looks interesting.

In the history book compiled by OtemAtum, which he says it's being revealed to him by Atum (the ancient god of Egypt or Kemet), he gave histories of Ifa as both a nephilim and a (reincarnated) homo sapiens that lived in the Yorubaland in the ancient world and later migrated to the East to become known as Afa.

He said the body of knowledge called Ifá today came from Ọrúnmìlá, the companion of Olohun (who Otem called a humanoid or an alien from space that created early humans in Yorubaland), and that Ifa got all his knowledge from Orúnmìlá.

Do you think Ifá was a man? Any verse of Ifáodu showing Ifá was a giant (nephilim) and later reincarnated as a man (homo sapiens)?

Also, Otem gave a history of Lúwàbi, who he said was a great philosopher, a moralist, a homo erectus and later reincarnated as a homo sapiens.

He said many words of wisdom teaching morality (parables and proverbs) in use today and from time in this part of the country were formulated by Lúwàbi thousands of years ago and passed down as precepts from one generation to another, up to the modern era.

He also asserted the origin or root of the term ọmọlúwàbi is Lúwàbi from ilẹfẹ̀si in ancient Yorubaland and means the children of Lúwàbi, the early humans/Yorubas he taught wisdom to in ancient times.

Do you think Lúwàbi was a giant (homo erectus) and reincarnated as a man (homo sapiens)? Any Ifaodu verse in support of these assertions.

Otem gave the name of Lúwàbi's tribe and parents in the book.

Omoluabi as.a panegyric has nothing to do with Noah and itis rhetoric . Noah as a name is even ambiguous.

Like I had mentioned, a little knowledge of Ifaodu does not mean one has knowledge of it.

Luwabi is not yet found by me in Ifaodu and such name has no proper bearing in Ifaodu. Elu iwa bi/Olu Iwa bi, still boil down to Iwa as the keyword.

Afterall Lord of perfect personality or lord of nature birthed this is Eluiwabi,which is a name or a panegyric of rúnmìẹ̀làà.

macof:
Lol. He clearly saw “orunmila” but his brain switched it to oduduwa
Na wa

Lol. English language seems farfetched for you oooo. Stop lying and being ignorant

Abohboy:
When did she compare him to Odua? She compared him to Orunmila the Orisha of Wisdom and the odu ifa and he came down in human form to teach odu ifa to the people as well as philosophy she's comparing his philosophical teachings to those of Socrates it is a fair comparison

Please reread I clearly posited that it was an insult on Yoruba worldview on Òrúnmìẹ̀làà to be compared with Socrates.This is flawful.

And that odua personality, historical feat is even far richer and better than Socrates. I went further to assert that ọ̀rúnmiẹ̀làa is a spirit being and not human.

Cheers

macof:
In all this nothing even remotely serves as a response to my comment.

Yet another senseless post from you

As usual.. Nothing to posit since you are already shamed. Fake lṣẹṣé believer

Konquest:
Greetings and thanks for the
post. Well said!

Cheers

A001:
Does anyone have a soft copy of this book?

Modified:
Got it: https://pdfcoffee.com/socrates-and-orunmila-two-patron-saints-of-classical-philosophy-by-sophie-b-oluwole-z-liborg-pdf-free.html

Late Professor Sophie Oluwole goofed on such comparison. But what can we do about it ? Nothing but to correct such.

People often writes as soon as they have little acquisition of Ifaodu knowledge, so no big deal. Meanwhile Socrates, was a bloody human being compared with spirit being. Socrates who was e'en far lesser in term of achievement as compared to odua !
Anyway it is stated in Ifaodu stanza
ifá pè
ẹni mọni ni nṣé ni
ọyẹ̀kú nlọ padaba s'alẹ̀ odò
adifá fún aridegbè tií nṣé elerè ọṣun
ọṣun òtòrò ẹ̀fọn
o kó'rè lẹyìn o dé yọyọ

Transl: ifa says
an individual who knows another hurt such easily
oyeku goes to hunt a dove down the riverside
cast divination for aridegbe who was a true devotee of risha osun
oshun the mighty risha whose strength is more than Buffalo
Cometh with abundant blessing and goodness.

macof:
Then you don’t know christainity , not surprising as you christians don’t even know your theology

Same body that is made in the image of the christian god?
Same body that you need to keep away from unnatural things?? Stay away from make up, jewelry, body art etc
You treat your body as you would treat a sacred object
Sacredness is the keyword not innocence

Im not even interested in teaching you about Christianity, you wouldn’t learn anyway
Most of you only know what you are told by your pastor or immediate community

Tell me something I do not know, since you know more than I but wetin concern Èlú with Screenshot without information.Ratherposting watery English term "sacred", please do the needful to differentiate between innocence and keep one's body as temple of God

Oh I see, so you are agnostic Lmao. While I am familiar with Hebrew language,christianity and the foundation of monotheistic God which is embedded in Head worship,known as Resh (rish). Rìṣà in Yoruba

Certainly, you do not have knowledge of Christianity because you behave like hate filled muslim. Perhaps go learn sufism. Even when Christianity use emotions to persuade its course, Islam use Jihad evenin modern times except liberal ones .

The ancient Hebrew, Christians as well as the Yorubas Ifaodu practitioners face the East; where World creation begun even scientific acknowledgement of East. This attest to the fact, that in Eji Ogbe in Ifaodu which you do not know nor belonged is absolute in agreement with Hebraic Religion. Ọlọ́jọ day comes to mind.

Let mentioned two things which are found in Ifaodu and Odu where they are found.

1. The earth begun from the EAST(Éjì Ogbè)
2. Thou shall not kill human being( Obara Méjì )

Show one or two stanza/s where law given unto man is found in Ifaodu in as much you claim you do not want to teach me christianity. Afterall teach us Ifaodu or teach me Islam . since you're the encyclopedia of esoteric knowledge in Ifaodu.

macof:
nobody submits to objects. some sects don't even use your typical material objects but use their bodies, their profession etc as a conduit of divine presence. Ogun worshippers might use their blacksmithing work as a form of religious practice
Churches, Synagogues, Shrines, Holy books, holy water, holy whatever... "my body is the temple of the lord"... these all conduits ie. idols
unless you can show me where someone calls a rock their God, that is that very rock itself is the God, you don't yet know what you are saying

. Body being Temple of the lord is just a figurative expression. As simple as ABC Be holy~Innocence is the keyword.

A001:
Our ancestors were never idol worshippers! Look How they used their language to deceive us:

Our ancestors are “Abọriṣa” (They who feed/respect Orisha)”. “I-bọ” (to feed/respect )” this never translate “Worship”

Whitemen called us “Idol worshippers” which should literally translates “Ijọsin ere” - does this make sense to you?

“Idol” according to Merriam-Webster means:
(I) an OBJECT of extreme devotion (II) a representation or symbol of an object of worship.

The above definitions of “Idol” is the same description for what we call “Ere” or “ọmọ langidi”

One should be curious to ask: How does “Idol” mean/translate “Orisha”?

How does “worship” which direct translation is “Ijọsin/Isin” mean “bọ” (which is “Feed” &/or “respect” in English)?

This is the hogwash they fed us to misconstrue the practice of the ancestors and ridicule it.

We were never “IDOL WORSHIPPERS” Our ancestors were craftsmen & Art lovers. They made idols, figurines in the image and depiction of nature, irunmọles, Orisas & predecessors.

They have these icons in their shrines as a point of connection to a respective divinity just as the Abrahamic religionists and other religions have the statues and the pictures of their religious figures in the church, mosques, temple respectively.

#Ase #AfricanSpirituality

Source: https://www./254496028077791/permalink/1781633205364058/

Now, my question is: how true are these claims? I'm coming across them for the first time.

Cc: macof, TAO11 or TAO12, Olu317, Konquest, musicwriter, OtemAtum, et al.

Problem with my original response. But let me share screenshot here to answer you a little.

MaxInDHouse:
The God of Abraham abhors the use of images in worship of him, that's all!

1.What is the original name of this God of Abraham which Western Scholars dictionary do not have original known meaning to it ?

2.Who identify him as God of Abraham ?

3.Who spoke or still speak the language of this Abraham ?

4.How many names was the so called Abraham was called?

5.What cardinal direction do Abraham descendants pray towards anciently ?

6.Did Abraham venerated Ogun or not ? If not describe, Abraham's temple or shrine of worship

7.Why do Abraham and descendants use animal for sacrifices ?

8.Why do Abraham descendants genuflect and place their head on ground when praying ?

9.What is ephod in the Bible ?

10 .Why did David consult ephod when enemies raided and took his citizens and brethren as slaves ?

11. What is the significance of Head to Abraham's descendants ancient Hebrew religion ?

12.Are the interpreters of ancient Hebrew ideograms speakers of ancient Hebrew language ?

Note: Your answer will proof to me that you're not in christianity without knowledge of it. No building ever exist without a foundation. And foundation of each building is the pillar that it needs eternally to face all challenges wherever it emanates.

Konquest:
@A001

Thanks for the mention and
the deep insights. You're spot
on about what you posted.
I'm not an adherant of the Ifa or
Yoruba religion but I respect the adherants because of the deep knowledge of karma or the teachings of the spiritual laws
of cause and effect.

Did you know that as recent as
the 1950s census, adherants
of the Ifa faith (Yoruba religion) were MORE than the Christians in the entire Yorubaland? Muslim Yorubas were more than the Ifa adherants as of the 1950s though.
The late 1890s census of Lagos island with a population of not more than 50,000 had the Yoruba religion adherents were more
than the Muslim and Christian natives, and non-natives!

The 1950s census that I first read in that Nigerian history book back in the late 1980s, also showed that on the national level, adherants of the different traditional religions were more than the Christians in especially the Middle Belt.

The Yoruba religion (Ifa) is an international faith in Cuba, Brazil, U.S., UK, Trinidad and Tobago, Venezuela, Columbia, Guyana, etc, with white and black adherants.
The beautiful and iconic names such as Fayemi, Fayose, Fasola,
Falana, Falola, Awolowo, Awomolo, Awori, etc, are proofs that the Ifa and Awo played and still plays a
defining role in the ascendancy
of the Yoruba people.


Even the term Babalawo is the official name for Ifa priests in the
Yoruba religion just like we
have a reverend father in the
Catholic religion or a monk in the
Buddhist religion, or a Magi of
the Zoroastrian religion of Persia
(or Iran) which gave birth to the Pharisaic Judaism via Cyrus the Great of Persian Empire who
is called "my King of Kings" in
the beginning of the book of Ezra by the so-called prophet Ezra.

"Shah han Shah" written on
ancient Persian burnt clay tablets unearthed by archaeologists means "King of Kings!"


Cuba alone has more than 5.000
Babalawos or Ifa priests. The
former two-term Vice-Chancelor
of Obafemi Awolowo University, Professor Wande Abimbola is a Babalawo just other prominent professionals who are Ifa priests.
It's criminal defamation for any ignorant Christian or even a Muslim in the media to falsely accuse Babalawos of human sacrifice based on fictional Nigerian movie scripts.

Babalawos are aware of the karmic repercussions of doing evil and teach the purity of thought.

The freedom to practice any legit
faith is important instead of some people trying to dubiously claim that only 2 religions exist in Nigeria when I'm aware of at least 10 distinct faiths being practiced by folks in Nigeria.


All the best.

Awesome piece. Dubious as it is being speculated. The major reason on this issue are many but let me posit on two.

1. Inferiority complex: This is due to the fact that the founding fathers of the comprised unverified alternative faiths which basically embedded in Yoruba traditional Ela faith.

2. Language factor: Before English language became a known language, nothing heavy was known about this language which made it a challenge to speakers of Yoruba language to see English language as language of gods. After all, English language is the language of Evangelism.

And the issue became stronger between Parents and children because there are account that stated that Christians as at 19th century compelled their parents to either accept the religion of christianity or they(sons and daughters) will severe their relationship with them (parents).


Cheers

NubaVertigo:
Something tells me tribal marks also played a vital role in helping Yorubas re-establish community on the other side, which should, if true, help the argument for the resilience of Yoruba culture besides post 1807 seeing the most Yoruba captives.

Not all Yorubas make usage of tribal marks in the Yoruba ethnic group. Rather, once Akọsẹ̀tayé a child is done, factors for mark given may ensue or not.

Yoruba worldview of child dedication factor in a lot of thing in it. This is the reason before a Yoruba settlement in a land, Ifaodu divination is done to give name to such land according to the odu that comes up in the divination.

Rather, what drew them together was the language,even with their different dialects. Afterall, Yoruba people and other ethnic groups share some form similiar ethnic facial scarification.

Abohboy:
It's alleged that under Oba Ewuare over 401 towns mostly in Ekiti, Ondo and Igbo land were conquered and there are many stories about the Benin army defeating the Deji Of Akure in battle and taking over that kingdom the places where they didn't get past were the high hills in Ekiti and the Owo kingdom those areas in Ekiti and Ondo remained independent of the Benin empire throughout history

This statement of 401 ekiti towns under Ewuare is not true. If you disagree to it, proof it bymentionig of such towns Ewuare controlled because there are no 401 towns in Ekiti during Ewuare's era.

Statement such as this, has no record nor have truth in it but mere assumption. Bini only had access to Europen in 1480s, which actually got them in contact with Portugal King.

It was after Ewuare and during the era of Ozolua that there was a firm contact with Biniland through port of Gwatto in the land of Ekalarderan around 1485-1486.

So, it is also ideal to assert fact with written account to that effect. Oba Bini is a son to Oni Oranmiyan who happened to be adescendant Ogun, a descendant of Odua. Therefore there is no reason dragging Bini into this thread if your intent is to make it a competition as usual. Some People are from different Royal Homes at Ileife and beyond ancestrally.

Abohboy:
Not only the Yoruba
The Fon survived in Haiti through Voodoo which is Vodun
The Igbo survived in Jamaica through Obeah
The Congolese survived in Brazil through Candomble

All African peoples survived and passed their culture down not only the Yoruba it is just they had the largest numbers as they were the last group to come in large numbers so less died and less were rooted out by Christianity and indoctrination that other groups suffered

Voodo originated not only through Fongbe but also Creole, Ewe , Kwa people etc. The Creole were through whom this word were heard which was due to the role the Creole played between West African and European colonilists.

If you have visited Benin Republic before to do research on ethnic group,then you will realise the Yorubas in Benin Republic were part of the most exported slave to New World from 1700s.

Infact, account of invasion of Songhai also contributed to slave trade,which many were exported to the New world that Yorubas were also residents in that land at that period in time because there are account of Yoruba Race being mentioned in that land pre1400s .

Moorish:
Those are semantics. You say they were in Alliance. Did they pay tax or not ?

From my recollection, Oyo collected taxes from all yoruba kingdoms including the whole of Dahomey (present Benin republic) except ekiti and ondo because I believe they were buffer zones for the Benin kingdom and Benin supported them against oyo aggression in order to keep that buffer.

Remember ogedengbe? The ekiti/ondo warrior? He was supported by Benin kingdom against oyo but also tried to sack Benin kingdom himself at some point

Tax as how ?Not all kingdoms paid tax to Oyo. Kindly go visit these different kingdoms to enquiry of their independent kingdom history,which will shock you.

Owu was the emerging Empire but abused her power which led to her destruction by joint Yoruba forces and not solely Oyo. This was the same thing that happened to Oyo which led to her collapse.

And when Ibadan, founded by Lagelu became a hub of refugees,wanted to assume the position of overlord,her ajeles were massacred in large number.

The point is that there were assumption in many written account as it regard Oyo,Iresa, Ogbon, Ikoyi. These kingdom were founded closely along same period but differs slightly. EOyo was founded by Oranmiyan and at a point he waged war against Katunga, a threshold of Empe-Nupe people.

Yoruba history is vast and not one man show thing in all ramification. Afterall, Aremo dies with his father in Oyo's law while this is not tenable in other kingdoms or vassal states. This also show that each clan has a way within her right over her domain. Oyo often fought who has no direct lineage to royalty and thereby influence the royal bloodline to be enthroned.


Cheers

Abohboy:
I said most excluding Lagos, Ijebu land and I forgot to also mention those conquered by other kingdoms but for the most part Oyo ruled over all Yorubas in Benin, Oyo, Osun, Western Ekiti, Western Ogun State, Western Ondo and Western Lagos which made up the majority of Yoruba land

Great. No problem. Oyo Empire did well at a point in history.

Moorish:
He said all except eastern lagos and ijebu land

I think he was partially right except that the oyo empire never ruled over ekiti or ondo but in fact did rule over ijebu land until their independence

Also oyo empire cannot really say it “ruled” over ile Ife because that is our spiritual capital.. it will be sacrilege to be taxing your spiritual capital.. however don’t forget that present osun state fell under the oyo empire if you check the maps

Oyo never ruled western Yoruba enclave as well,apart from other sub kingdoms

Even the Northern Yoruba such as Ikoyi,Ketu, Popo, Iresa, Ogbomosho,Ancient Ogbon were ally to Oyo Empire and were not subjected to Oyo dictates

An Empire subject kingdoms she controls through tthorough the dictates of that kingdom. Anyway ,Oyo empire actually did well at a point in time in history.

Moorish:
Thanks for this. I know I had heard something similar before

That is a false statement from the person who stated Oyo had grip on all Yoruba land.

Moorish:
Candomble actually has strong Yoruba influences

Check this out “ In addition to the influence on slavery, and later Afro-American cuisine and language, the importation of Yoruba culture was most heavily evidenced in such manifestations of Yoruba religion as Santería, Candomblé Ketu, and other traditional spiritualities.”

Also this is the first thing that comes up when you search “candomble” on Google >>>

Candomblé is a religion based on African beliefs which is particularly popular in Brazil. It is also practised in other countries, and has as many as two million followers. The religion is a mixture of traditional Yoruba, Fon and Bantu beliefs which originated from different regions in Africa.15 Sep 2009..

So you cannot ignore the Yoruba influence on candomble

On your assertions on later enslavement of Yoruba peoples compared to other tribes, I have heard it before but I cannot find any evidence for that.. I remember seeing it online some years back tho so you could be right

Can you point me to any evidence to that claim ? From what I know all of our west African tribes were enslaved around the same times

On your other assertions, Obeah is pretty much non existent now in Jamaica tho

Benin-Haiti share vodun in common I agree that this is evidence of the survival of dahomean culture in the new world. I will give you this

However no diasporan group is more strongly affiliated with their original homeland like the Yoruba diaspora

Even in the USA were igbos were the most enslaved group, you have “Oyotunji”, a Yoruba village in America to this day. Can you show me any such cultural center or village created by Igbo descendants in America ?

Cheers

Why bother yourself ?

Ola17:
Did you follow his logic at all?

He said ATR adherents aren’t worshiping those images but what they represent. Same way Catholics allegedly don’t worship the numerous idols of Jesus and Mary in their parishes.

ATR is a sect. The religion aspect of Yorubas is embedded in Orunmiela worship toEledumare.

While his logic has flaws which is the reason I had to make him see that there are worshippers of graven image and ancestors worship is more of veneration because without consultation of Ifaodu, such activities cum celebration is not completed .

macof:
another senseless comment.
your obsession with me will only drain you.
please shift

Bro, your false statement will always haunt you. Mr. No religion worship idol... Obsessed to you ? Your face must have been the one in 1000$ bill

macof:
What’s this one saying Which graven image of which God of creation
Are you following me around?. What kind of useless joblessness makes a person monitor threads i post in and at the end comment something senseless

Stop confusing yourself , Mr. There are image depicting God of sky in Egypt,India etc. It is based on this that study has shown there is a clarify of carved image which serves as God in many culture.

I monitor you? Lmao. Well, I do not have time for such but I had to correct you because you feed the public with incoherent information. Horus has a figur ,so also do Ra before they were merged together at a point in history.

Seriously, you need learn the difference between graven image carved to mean God and deifed carved image such as the black Jesus and his mother.

In all of these that there are images that became a form of worship carved to represent creator from some culture theological angle ,which is different from the account of a legend,whom became deified and thus become a channel to divine contact who are referred as prophets.


Lastly, Common sense is never common because it is rare gift. So learn to be humble without usage of violent word or aggressive vulgar words since millions of people know more than you and you can tap from other resourceful intellectuals.

macof:
There are no idol worshippers in this world. Abrahamic religions just use it to disrespect non-abrahamic religions.
it is merely a show of disdain and disrespect

Kaarè . So there are no idol worshippers in this world ?How come people created graven image for God of creation or Almighty God ? If you do not know much on this things then, make no such linear statement.