₦airaland Forum

Sweetnecta: @Paris-Love: you have just proven that she [ra] was older, minimum of the age where a person can consent to marriage or sex.

The age does not matter in Eve but the physical maturity and reaching puberty mattered. And thats what happened to Aisha [ra].

I said she was capable at "birth" to be a wife and can take her husband who was also capable of being a husband at "birth".

How long was Eve alive before she was "old" enough to be a wife?

say what you want. we are not as you think. maybe you think we are holy ghost who just take it without marrying her, first.

please direct me to the verses in the Quran. I wanna know since the Trinity guy just hijack her.

I wanna read it from your post what Allah did with Maryam the mother of Isa bin Maryam [as]. I hope you will not be unable to post it since you are ashamed what holy ghost did to produce a baby from her. I could laugh, but i will not.

Sweetnecta: have you known a true husband that has not been intimate with his wife, a wife who he and her entered into a legal marriage contract?

Adam was a man who could be intimate starting from the very first day of his life.
Eve could be intimate from the very first moment of her being alive. In fact she walked up to Adam and informed him that she was his wife when he asked who she was.

Orikinla, you made a orikikere in this your post asking if a true prophet of God be intimate with a 9 year old, as if you are thinking that a wife has to be a particular age. Look at what the holy ghost from the bibles did to virgin Mary who was not married to him.

maclatunji: ^With you, that might not be much of a lie, who knows?

Logicboy03: The hijab is not a joking matter!


Women must be covered!

Sister fatie: don't u recognize sarcarsm?

ghazzal: but it is thinkable that your God had to wait for so long before sending "his Son" to wipe of Adams sin? pls get off your slumber

ghazzal: Why I Left Islam
by Ali Sina

@ paris love

note that most High God commands what he wills and he is never unjust to his creations but the creations are unjust to themselves.

the verses you quote seems similar to when the atheists state that " God of the bible(old testament) is a wicked God. but i will ask, will you condone your "child" who does not regard nor obey you but holds another child of yours in high esteem, in other words, all respect, obedience, honour.... that you deserve from that son is accorded to another son of yours and he does not even care that you exist or not?

what if their relationship is not even a father-child relationship? please relate it to an expert programmer who makes automated catoon characters that he can easily remake anytime?

........ may God forgive me for my errors and guide me to righteousness. same to you (but please say the prayer with all righteousness)

for the hadiths, i dont know your source but there is a standard benchmark for hadiths-it must conform with Quran teachings only then can it be said to be free from error. else, it needs caution cos it can derail.

lastly, i think Ali Sina must have seen these Quranic verses before if he claims he has read the Quran and some other books, he must be a joke!!!. i know christians who converted to islam reading this same book that confuses some "acclaimed muslims".

note that even if i want to leave islam (God forbid as there is no reason for that), it cant be christianity where the founder(paul who kills jesus` followers) contradicts his encounter with Jesus in two different places (should a sane mind trust PAUL?). pls read your storybook well and see that it is just a joke. it is evident that if it has an original, it must be lost or hidden.

maclatunji: Bukhari

Volumn 007, Book 072, Hadith Number 715.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Ikrima : Rifa'a divorced his wife whereupon 'AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her ('Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's Apostle came, 'Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!"
When 'AbdurRahman heard that his wife had gone to the Prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment, 'Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's Apostle! She has told a lie! I am very strong and can satisfy her but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifa'a." Allah's Apostle said, to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifa'a unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." Then the Prophet saw two boys with 'Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that 'AbdurRahman said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "You claim what you claim (i.e. that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow."

Shame on you for not quoting the hadith in full. Then again, you go to an anti-Islamic website, copy and parrot everything you see there over here without thinking. Are you that slow? I guess if you wanted to learn about how capitalism works you would go to Fidel Castro. Lack of contemplation is a bad thing. #Nonsense.

Sweetnecta: in Islam what a man can do, women can do.

ShiaLagos: Honestly I'm not sure.but regardless I drew that into our discussion to prove there's nothing wrong with monogamy in Islam.the reason why the rumour of marriage to abu jahl's daughter caused an uproar was because of who/what abu jahl was.I hope you won't ask me the same question again because it appears the reasons are no longer good for you and you're digging forwhat isn't.

You tend to firstly forget you're discussing and reading meaning into what is established to have been a false rumor.Imam Ali (as) did nothing that really angered his first and only wife during her lifetime.if she was jealous and its normal for women to have such feelings for their husbands,even aisha was among the wivesof the Prophet (sa).also what really made the rumor wicked was that the husband of Prophet Muhammad's (sa) daughter was going to marry abu jahl's daughter.now that will cause in Sayyida Fatima (as) more than jealousy.

Safiyya (ra) was jewish.her marriage and reasons behind it were entirely different.she was the daughter of the chief of the banu nadhirtribe.her marriage to the Prophet (sa) which sheconsented to,maintained her elevated status.she was also a captive of war or what many would wrongly refer to as "slave" and the Prophet (sa) married her.

I think what you refer to as "authentic" is lame.I wonder who would know when and how a married man in his house is having intimate relation with his wives.

I've seen that hadith and its silly just for its suggestion a man can Be Intimate with 11 women at a stretch.that hadith is found as usual in the book of Sunnis they call"sahih" hadith.it was put there most likely by a wicked being to denigrate the Prophet (sa) by breaking the shield of decency/morality/shame and possibly to make a political statement to justify the ills of any of the corrupt sunni caliph

nevertheless sex in islam is perfectly healthy and even encouraged for a man when done correctly.you can call that lust or whatever you please.his wives didn't complain.

don't please. That would break my heart. [quote]i always think i need to learn more but when i see peoples comments/speak (like yours above) i tend to want to rejoice in my ignorance.

first, how do you know that those guys are muslims since the dressing is a tradition. its justfunny how the world makes effort to bash islam these days.

if we say its a mystery that man lusts after woman(do your study on that), and islam warns that man should lower his gaze, and woman should avoid show off-how does that relate to nounderstanding of women.

non-muslims grow up functional by chasing after(having cannal knowledge of) woman as early as 12 yrs- so theyknow women very well,

kemoolala: can u imagine someone they claimed to be their leader said to their face that he does not know where he was going, can u just picture the kind of leader he is?

Why I Left Islam
by Ali Sina

I am often asked, Why I left Islam? As absurd as it may be, some Muslims cannot even allow themselves to think that leaving Islam is an option, or even possible. They rather think that those who leave Islam are paid Jewish agents than accept the fact that people have freedom to think and some may even think that Islam is not for them. The following are my reasons:

Until few years ago I used to think that my faith in Islam was not based on blind imitation but rather was the result of years of investigation and research. The fact that I had read a lot of books on Islam, written by people whose thoughts I approved of and delving into philosophies that were within my comfort zone, emphasized my conviction that I had found the truth. All my biased research confirmed my faith. Just like other Muslims I used to believe that to learn about anything one has to go to the source. Of course the source of Islam is the Quran and the books written by Muslim scholars. Therefore, I felt no need to look elsewhere in order to find the truth, as I was convinced that I have already found it. As Muslims say " Talabe ilm ba'd azwossule ma'loom mazmoom ". The search of knowledge after gaining it is unnecessary.

Now I realize this was a mistake. What if we want to learn the truth about one of these dangerous cults? Is it enough to depend only on what the cult leader and his deluded followers say? Wouldn't it be prudent to widen our research and find out what other people have to say about them? Going to the source makes sense only in scientific matters, because scientists are not "believers". They do not say something because they have blind faith. Scientists make a critical analysis of the evidence. It is very much different from religious approach that is based entirely on faith and belief.
I suppose it was my acquaintance with the western humanistic values that made me more sensitive and whetted my appetite for democracy, free thinking, human rights, equality, etc. It was then that when I reread the Quran I came across injunctions that were not on a par with my new found humanistic values, I was distressed and felt uncomfortable to read teachings like these:

Q.3:90
But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have gone astray.

Q.16: 106
Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.

One may think that the dreadful penalty mentioned here pertains to the next world. But Muhammad made sure that these people received their penalty in this world as well:

Q 9.14
Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hand s, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,
There are also Hadiths that clearly says " So, wherever you find them, kill them, for there will be a reward for their killers on the Day of Resurrection."

Elsewhere we read:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

I found many tales of brutality of Muhammad like this story:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 261:
Eight men of the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, "O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with some milk." Allah's Apostle said, "I recommend that you should join the herd of camels." So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails, which were heated and passed over their eyes, and they were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died.

And from Partial Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4339
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) Said: The blood of a Muslim man who testifies that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle should not lawfully be shed except only for one of three reasons: a man who committed fornication after marriage, in which case he should be stoned; one who goes forth to fight with Allah and His Apostle, in which case he should be killed or crucified or exiled from the land; or one who commits murder for which he is killed.

The more I read the more I questioned the sense of Justice of Muhammad. The following is very disturbing. I dare to say that any man who reads it and is not taken aback with disgust has a long way to go to become a human.

[b]Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4348[b]
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.
He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.
Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.

I felt the above story was a manifest injustice. Muhammad condoned a man killing a pregnant mother and his own unborn child just because he said that she insulted the Prophet!
(Arabs used to sleep with their maid slaves. Quran perpetuates this tradition Q.33: 52 Muhammad himself slept with Mariyah the maid slave of Hafsa his wife without marrying her.)
Forgiving someone for killing another human being just because he said she insulted Muhammad is unacceptable. What if that man was lying to escape punishment? What does this story say about Muhammad's sense of Justice? During the past 1400 years, how many husbands escaped punishment for killing their innocent wives by accusing them of blaspheming the prophet of God and this Hadith made them get away with it?

Here is another one:
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4349
Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:
A Jewess used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. A man strangled her till she died. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) declared that no recompense was payable for her blood.

It was not easy to read these stories and not be moved. There is no reason to believe that all these stories were fabricated. Why should believers, who have tried to depict their prophet as a compassionate man fabricate so many stories that would make him look like a ruthless tyrant?

I could no longer accept the brutal treatment of those who chose not to accept Islam. Faith is a personal matter. I could no more accept that the punishment of someone who criticizes any religion must be death.
See how Muhammad dealt with the unbelievers:

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4359
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
The verse "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution,or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite side or exile from the land...most merciful" was revealed about polytheists. If any of them repents before they are arrested, it does not prevent from inflicting on him the prescribed punishment, which he deserves."

How could a messenger of God maim and crucify people on the account that they resist accepting him? Could such a person really be a messenger of God? Wasn't there a better man with more moral and ethical fortitude to bear this mighty responsibility?
I could not accept the fact that Muhammad slaughtered 900 Jews in one day, after he captured them in a raid that he started. I read the following story and I shivered:

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4390
Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:
I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair.

[b]Also, I found following story shocking:
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4396[b]
Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah:
A thief was brought to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him). He said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! Then he said: Cut off his hand. So his (right) hand was cutoff. He was brought a second time and he said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! Then he said: Cut off his foot.
So his (left) foot was cut off.
He was brought a third time and he said: Kill him.
The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah!
So he said: Cut off his hand. (So his (left) hand was cut off.)
He was brought a fourth time and he said: Kill him.
The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah!
So he said: Cut off his foot. So his (right) foot was cut off.
He was brought a fifth time and he said: Kill him.
So we took him away and killed him. We then dragged him and cast him into a well and threw stones over him.

Seems that Muhammad passed judgment before hearing the case. Also by cutting a thief's hand he is left with no other means to earn his bread except begging, which would be difficult since he is defamed as a thief and so hated by people. Therefore re-offending becomes his only means of livelihood.

After living many years in the West and being received kindly by people of other religions or of no religion, who loved me and accepted me as their friend; who let me into their lives and their heart, I could no longer accept the following mandates of the Quran as the words of God:

Q.58: 22
You will not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, making friendship with those who oppose Allah and His Messenger

Q.3: 118-120
O you who believe! Take not as (your) bitaanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse.

And

Q.5: 51
O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as awliya' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but awliya' to one another

I also found the above statement false. The evidence is in the Bosnia and Kosovo crisis; where Christian countries, waged war against another Christian country, to liberate Muslims. Many Jewish doctors volunteered to help the Kosovar refugees, despite the fact that during the WWII, the same Albanian Muslims took sides with Hitler and helped him in his holocaust against the Jews.
It became obvious to me that Muslims are accepted by all the people of the world yet our prophet wants us to hate them, to disassociate ourselves from them, to force them into our way of life or kill them, subdue them and make them pay Jizya. How silly! How pathetic! How inhumane! No wonder there is so much inexplicable hate of the West and of the Jews among Muslims. It was Muhammad who inseminated the hate and the distrust of the non-believers among his followers. How can Muslims integrate with other nations while holding these hateful messages of the Quran as the words of God?

There are many Muslims who immigrate to non-Muslim countries and are received with open arms. Many of them get into politics and become part of the ruling elite. We suffer no discrimination in the non-Islamic countries. But see how our holy prophet tells us to deal with non-Muslims where we are the majority:

Q.9: 29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are)of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

I also find the following verses completely against my conscience. I love all humanity and wish everyone to be happy in this world and forgiven in the next. But my holy prophet bade me not to seek forgiveness for the unbelievers even if they are my parents and beloved ones.
(Interpretation of the meaning by Muhsin Khan):

Q.9: 113
It is not (proper) for the Prophet and those who believe to ask Allah's forgiveness for the mushrikeen, even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are the dwellers of the Fire (because they died in state of disbelief).

Quran and hadith are full of outrageous verses like these that to me are clear proof that Muhammad was not a prophet, but a cult leader. To force people to denounce their own family is what cults do. He was an impostor who lied so loudly and so forcefully that the ignorant people of his time believed in him. Then the following generations echoed these lies passing them to the next. Philosophers and writers were born in this atmosphere of lies and elaborated on them, embellished them, and made them credible. But when you go to the core of the religion, when you read the Quran and study the hadith you see they are nothing but pure nonsense. Rumi was a great poet and a mystic, he tried to give Islam mystical significance that it lacked. But what Rumi said is Rumi's thinking. Quran is bereft of mystical meanings. Muhammad's concept of religion and god was extremely primitive. Why Rumi, Attar, Sohravardi or other mystics strive to attribute meanings to senseless verses of the Quran has to do with their upbringing as Muslim kids. On one hand, unlike the more rationalist thinkers such as Ar Razi, they could not denounce Islam altogether for it was ingrained in their subconscious mind. Nothing is more difficult to get rid of than religion. This is truly the most potent narcotic if it is administered to a person from childhood. Yet as intelligent people it was not possible for these great minds to accept the Quran for its face value. Therefore they tried to find esoteric meanings in meaningless verses of the Quran and it was they who gave birth to a new religion that had nothing to do with what was taught by Muhammad. Yet this religion was palatable to those with brains.

Thus we have two Islams. One that makes strives to attribute mystical significance and otherworldly meanings to the inane teachings of the Quran, as is professed by Sufis, and the other that rejects any interpretation of these verses beyond their literal meanings, as is practiced by the majority of Muslims with their hub in Saudi Arabia among the Wahhabis. And of course there is a myriad of sects that go in between these two extremes, each interpreting the Quran according to their own whims and caprices, each calling others mortad or heretics and constantly making war among themselves to impose their own "right" version of the pure Islam on others.

However, the real Islam is not what its philosophers and mystics have inferred but what is in the Quran and that is the Islam of the fundamentalist and the terrorist. The real Islam is the Islam that abuses women, that allows men to beat their wives, that imposes penalty tax on the religious minorities, that wants to dominate the world by subduing all the non-Muslims, that calls for Jihad and killing the non-believers until Islam becomes the only dominant religion of the World.

My rejection of Islam is not based on the bad deeds of the Muslims but on the bad teachings of its holy book and on the bad deeds of its founder. Many cruelties and heinous acts of violence, perpetrated by Muslims throughout the centuries were inspired by the Quran and the Sunnah (the examples of the prophet). That is why I condemn ISLAM for the bad things that Muslims do. Any effort to humanize Islam is a waste of time. The obstacle to any reform is Quran. The enemy is Islam and that is the target of my attacks. I do that, despite knowing that I have become the magnet of the hatred of fanatical Muslims and my own life could be in danger. Yet I know that by eradicating Islam we can save the world from the dangers of a catastrophe that otherwise is looming over our heads and could cause more disaster than the 1st and 2nd World Wars combined. Eradication of Islam means restoring peace among humanity and civility, democracy and prosperity in the Muslim world.

LagosShia: The reason the Prophet (sa) opposed the marriage was not a prohibition to polygamy and the right of Imam Ali (as) to a second wife if he had wished for that.also before marriage a woman can ask for a monogamy clause in the marriage contract and if the man accepts he cannot take another wife.both monogamy and polygamy are perfectly fine if applied correctly.

The tradition of marrying from the opposing clan or group is to cement reconciliation.however if there is no reconciliation and there is a state of war,you cannot use marriage to effect that purpose.

On the Prophet (sa) being loyal to Sayyida Khadija (as),if the Prophet (sa) is the kind of man christian fanatics describe him,inspite of any poor condition he would have still done things with other women.for a man to live that long with one woman who some people say was older than him shows the man had self control.

LagosShia: Now that aside let me further break it to you in even simpler terms to see the reality of how identical Prophet Muhammad (sa) and Imam Ali (as) are in actions.Prophet Muhammad (sa) married Lady Khadija (as)-the mother of SayyidaFatima-who some say was older than him.for 25 years the Prophet (sa) lived with her and only her.it was only after her death he remarried

his marriages are all for political reasons, to break taboos and for moral reasons and lessons to the muslims.Imam Ali (as) married Sayyida Fatima (as),the Prophet's (sa) daughter and onlyher throughout her life.it was only after the martyrdom of Sayyida Fatima (as) that Imam Ali (as) remarried.

There is no hypocrisy here.and Imam Ali (as) was not been prohibited from taking another wife.

the first thing is the rumor was false and ill-intended.second,the woman the rumor says Imam Ali (as) wanted to marry was the daughterof a chief pagan of arabia and an arch-foe of the holy Prophet (sa)

So please I want you in all honesty and humility if you got any,to now tell us where is the hypocrisy or apologize for drawing a wrong or mistaken conclusion.

ghazzal: Muhammed (saw) the ORPHAN

Muhammed (saw) the EMPLOYEE

Muhammed (saw) the MERCHANT

Muhammed (saw) the FATHER (has children)... taught about duties of father to children.

Muhammed (saw) the EMPLOYER

Muhammed (saw) the LEADER

Muhammed (saw) the "DOCTOR"...LOL

Muhammed (saw) the "SCIENTIST"....LOL.

Muhammed (saw) the SOLDIER.... TAUGHT THAT A STATE CAN DEFEND ITSELF HONOURABLY,

GODLY.
......
BUT IN ALL, HE WAS MOST HIGH GOD`S MESSENGER. WHO LIVED FOR 63 YRS, PASSED THE MESSAGE FOR 23 YEARS.

HE THAUGHT IN/ABOUT MANY ASPECTS OF HUMAN LIFE AND LIVED WHAT HE TAUGHT. PERFECT EXAMPLE FOR MAN.

whatever condition man finds himself, there was an example in the life of Muhammed (or that of people around him)....

LagosShia: Mind your business.I'm not sure of what you're referring to as "hypocritical".take your islamophobia elsewhere.I know its unfortunate the wahhabi freak derailing the thread and his intolerance and misbehaviour is allowing miserable followers of blindness make reckless comment.but I'd ask you politely to respect yourself and take your islamophobia and christian zealotry elsewhere.thanks.