₦airaland Forum

SmoothCrim: Okay I am glad I thought you a few things!! No insult to Oyo! I think its weakness was due to its location! It explains why the region was almost completely islamized and would have been if it was not for European influence. But, the culture has great art

Oyo's problem was a civil war. If you were an expert you would know that. In fact, it's location was actually a bonus and a source of horses for cavalry and an area that was free of the tsetse fly that carried trypanosomiasis.

On Oyo and Asante, you fished out sources on that event, but somehow missed the ones that say exactly what I've been telling you the whole time. Asante was scared of Oyo and didn't do anything to Dahomey after getting put in check. That's simply what happened. All this other stuff is just dishonesty.

And yeah, the culture has great art. At least we agree on that.

Later.

SmoothCrim: http://newafrikanvodun.com/names.html

Come on man stop embarrassing yourself

Thanks for the link and you should have done that in the first place instead of that wiki stuff.

As I said, I would accept it if you actually gave reasonable evidence.

And yeah, you should get back to the topic, because it seems there's no way to stop you from deluding yourself about Oyo and Asante. You fished out sources on that event, but somehow missed the ones that say exactly what I've been telling you the whole time.

SmoothCrim: How much more evidence do you need

It's alright to accept defeat. Lets go back on the topic.

You've given me one man with a Fon first name and an Akan last name. What's his background (mother and father) anyway?

I'm not convinced that Fon people use Akan names just from one man.

Yoruba religious influence on the Fon, by contrast, is obvious and anyone can find out about that easily.

SmoothCrim: Those names listed are Akan names and they are used by Fon people..

Look at the name of the Ref in this match from Benin.

Clearly An Akan name

http://www.cafonline.com/competition/african-cup-of-nations-angola_2010/news/4530-referees-for-semi-finals-ghana-v-nigeria-algeria-v-egypt.html

Okay, so you've given me one man with a Fon first name and an Akan last name. What's his background (mother and father) anyway?

SmoothCrim: Ask a Fon person if they use those names. I am of the view that as far as coastal west Africa goes no Ethnic group have had a bigger influence on the culture than the Akan. This is coming from a neutral.

The wiki article you gave as evidence claims that the Akan started the tradition of naming a baby on the day of the week that it was born in West Africa. It does not say that Fon people use Akan names.

I am not Yoruba by the way, so my arguments here are just as "neutral" as yours. I was only asking for a little bit of evidence for the claim. That's all. If you can't provide it, just say so and I'll drop the issue.

SmoothCrim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akan_names

A while back you said not to rely on wikipedia in a debate.

I'll overlook the fact that you did and ask the simple question, where is the actual proof that Fon people take Akan names? (not that the wiki article even says that they do anyway) If they do actually take Akan names, fine. But at least give evidence of that.

And I've explained the situation as far as Oyo is concerned to you repeatedly but you keep deceiving yourself and conveniently seem to only be able to find those sources that allow you to block out the truth.

Anyway, Oyo/Yoruba influence of Dahomey is/was definitely great and one can find information on that easily.

SmoothCrim: False, Dahomey was not relevant and Ashantee or other Akans had infiltrated it a long time ago. Today people from what was Dahomey take Akan names. That should tell you something. Once again you can't talk about Ashantee without talking about the kingdoms that came before them but, that is a long debate.

Fon people take Akan names? Give proof of that and I'll accept the claim.

Dahomey is not relevant because you blindly asserted that? Man, I'm not even going to bother with that one.

Stop deluding yourself. An army was sent out because of Dahomey's trouble making, but was defeated and several important nobles/commanders were killed, and the capital was in mourning afterward and they couldn't get revenge on Dahomey out of fear of Dahomey's protector.

SmoothCrim: You are confused or drunk. Ashantee had no desire to conquer Dahomey is that is what you are saying

You're a lazy fake historian. Do you even know where Dahomey is (was) and were Oyo is (was) located in respect to Asante and the rebel groups?

Dahomey offered assistance to rebels in Bron, Kwawu, and Akyem and that was the cause of hostilities. If you're too dumb and lazy to go and find that out, that's your problem.

But Asante wouldn't dare attack Dahomey after their 1764 defeat for reasons which they made clear themselves and which I've explained to your repeatedly.

SmoothCrim: Are we reading the same doc?

"In 1764, however, the- Asantehene had to act when he learnt that the allies had appealed to the
Yoruba state of Oyo for help."


Read that over and over...

Do you actually know what you're talking about? Or are you basing your conclusions on one document which does not cite a source for this specific claim?

The Dahomians were the problem as far as rebellious groups and the Asante complained about why they couldn't get revenge on them - the state that was lording over Dahomey at that time.

Please try and actually find out about this stuff and you won't run with start mixing up states.

SmoothCrim: Once again.

Learn to read history.

A fragmented state which was under attack from all sides. That is why I asked for CONTEXT!

The state at that point was a little Like Nigeria today... No wonder some have predicted Nigeria will break apart and fall.

Learn from history and ultimately what destroyed that kingdom.


The kingdom was fragmented and so weak but, a mishap in battle vs. 2 kingdoms was considered so embarrassing that a "coup" happened.
Consider yourself schooled! Now do you want to debate Mali??

Nobody was attacking it when they decided to attack the Dahomians. You just keep making up stuff and its freaking annoying. If they could attack all the allies in 1765, they could certainly attack the Dahomians, but as they explained themselves, they were apprehensive of war with Oyo.

SmoothCrim: False! Read again and read the whole doc.

Like a typical physics nerd you don't want to read.

Did you actually read the document?


"The Akyem seized on the commotion in Asante to throw off its allegiance
to Asante. In September 1746, the Danes reported that the Akyem had repudiated
Asante overlordship; that they had left their own country and that
some had retired into Fante country and others to Kwawu and Little Popo. A
few months later it was known that the Akyem had entered into an
alliance with the powerful coastal Fante; and, in the following-year; rtwas
reported that the Denkyera, Wassa and the Twifo had TOinetfthe Akyem-
Fante allianice.58 The primary objective of this 'Grand Alliaiice' was (a)"to '
maintain their political independence of Asante by cutting off the Asante
from supplies of firearms and powder in appreciable quantities and (b) to
preserve a lucrative middleman interest in the inland trade.
The blockade of these allies was so effective that, in 1751, the Dutch
at Elmiha noted that "the little trade that now and then is carried on among
the forts is only with the natives living on the beach or a little way inland
except Accra. There, sometimes but seldom, a small caravan still comes, but
along distant and difficult ways, and most times accompanied with danger, So
that this deters the, Ashantees". A British report of the same period also—
refers to the "inconsiderable number of slaves brought from the great kingdom
oif Ashantee in a. very difficult and dangerous way, by the traders of that
country", in order to purchase guns and powder at the British, Dutch ana
Danish torts at Accra.'59
The Europeans on the Gold Coast whose trade was badly affected by the
stoppage of the trading paths, speculated that the Asantehene, Kusi Obodum,
(1750-1764) would adopt a forward policy aimed at defeating the allies. But
Kusi Obodum became the ruler of a divided nation largely as a result o£ the
policies' pursued by his illustrious predecessor, and [b]so he had to bide
his time and hope for the disintegration of the allianee.[/b]60 In 1764, however,
the- Asantehene had to act when he learnt that the allies had appealed to the
Yoruba state of Oyo for help. This campaign proved disastrous when the
Asante army, numbering between 10,000 and 12,000 fell into an ambush and
died to a man. The dead included Dankwa, the Dwabenhene and head of the
Oyoko clan, who led the Asante forces.
The result of this Dankwa debacle was the deposition" of the" aged Kusi
Obodum and the accession of the youthful Osei Kwadwo (1764—1777) who was
determined to follow in the footsteps of Opoku Ware. - - - - - - -
In a sense, Osei Kwadwo was fortunate, for he had a united nation behind
him- But, most importantly, he became Asantehene when the alliance against
Asante had disintegrated. .The Fante and the Denkyera had withdrawn from
the alliance and were supporting the Asante to defeat the allies. The Akyem
and the Wassa were quarelling among themselves and so there could not be
any concerted action against the Asante.
It was against this background that Asante invaded these allied countries
in 1765. In May of that year, the Asante army advanced from the north to
join the Fante forces from the south. The Wassa and the Twifo, apparently
because of their feud with the Akyem but most certainly because they shuddered
at the prospect of fighting the combined forces of Asante and Fante,
deserted the Akyem and moved into Twifo country, where they pitched their
camp at "Ahiman, about fifty or sixty miles to the Northwest of this" (Cape
Coast Castle)."


Where are you getting this "they were fighting other battles at the time" stuff from? Do you just make this stuff up as you go along?

They were battling no one in 1764. The king was biding his time, waiting for his enemies to start in-fighting and break their alliance.

There is another quote not in that document that shows that they were in fact apprehensive of seeking revenge on Dahomey because of fear of Oyo. Stop being lazy and go read.

SmoothCrim: exposed you loser!!

Here is some full context...

After your read this you will realize how much of a joke you are.

http://archive.lib.msu.edu/DMC/African%20Journals/pdfs/Institue%20of%20African%20Studies%20Research%20Review/1973v9n1/asrv009001004.pdf

once again you don't really understand west African history.

Can you actually read?

They were not besieged by anybody in 1764. They marched out and crossed the Volta of their own will.

This is the dumbest attempt at a rationalization from you yet.

In fact, if you had read your own document, you would have seen that they launched an expedition against other Akan groups in 1765 (but were still too scared to attack Dahomey, because, as I said earlier, they were scared of Oyo).

SmoothCrim: I read the actual book... Now go read the context. They were facing battles from numerous sides at that time and were being attacked by other Akan groups.

Because you extrapolated that from the summary you read on wiki about rebellions?

Man stop making dumb excuses. Marching out and starting a war with an additional group is not something you do if you're actually being besieged from all sides by your neighbors at the time.

You just get dumber and dumber.

SmoothCrim: You are quoting wikipedia. In a two vs. one battle..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Atakpam%C3%A9

hahahahahaha...

I wasn't quoting wikipedia you jacka$$.

I've read the actual documents that I'm talking about. That might be an unheard-of concept to you, but it actually happens.

I couldn't care less about what that wiki page says right now, since the facts of that history have already been written and can't be changed by clicking on "edit".

Later, fake historian.

SmoothCrim,

I have no more time to waste on explaining what happened to you. You brought up ancient history. Go read a book, stop pretending to be an expert, and learn to stop kissing a$$. Bye.

SmoothCrim: Once again what is the context.


What happened before and was happening. If I remember correctly from what I read a while back it was during a point when it was under attack from other Akan groups. A very low point in its history and not at its peak. Once again, this is a far tangent and does not change the main point which is that Oyo was nothing more than a place that everyone attacked for fun and took some of the land. If he cried it was due to realizing how weak his kingdom was at that point !! In other words lose to anyone but, when you have reached the point that you can't even take this easy one out then, it is time to change the king and start over

The context is that Asante crossed the Volta to attack Dahomey and got put in check.

Stop making excuses. It looks pathetic.

When Asante gets put in check, it's because "it's a very low point in its history". Fine.

But when Oyo gets attacked it's because it's inherently weak, even though the same Asante that was strong was apprehensive of war with them and said that (not that they were under attack from others). Stop making yourself look dumb with these comments.

The context has already been explained to you. They got put in check and started mourning instead of arming themselves.

SmoothCrim: You are the one taking quotes out of a larger context. Why may he have been worried? Take your time and think? what other battles were going on? I can't believe I am actually teaching this?

What is the full context? This is always very important in history. I can give it to you but, I think you would benefit from looking into it.

After the battle, the capital (Kumasi) was filled with grief and mourning.

There were no other battles going on although I know why you'd be desperate to invent a "larger context" that could excuse being put in check and not doing anything about it.

You're not teaching anything. You're showing that you're too lazy to read up on the history of the place you were pretending to be an expert on.

SmoothCrim: What other battles were they engaged in? On how many fronts were they fighting?


What is the exact date?





Was this a full army or a brigade? what was their goal?

Once again know your place!!

lol, you're obviously not the history expert you thought you were to be begging for information like this. Look it up (1764) and stop making a fool of yourself here. Asante was engaged in no other battles and simply got put in check.

SmoothCrim: False False False. Once again why not give the whole context if you are man enough. You know your inferiority to your masters and all other peoples groups in the region... Once again they took part of your land and you dress like them...

The whole context has already been given but you just refuse to acknowledge it. Asante infringed on Dahomey and was put in check. That's the context. You would have known this already though if you were anything other than a fake history expert.

Now go and worry about the Fulanis in Ghana that your people are complaining about and stop kissing Fulani butt.

SmoothCrim: Once again your Hausa-Fulani masters took part of your land. Prove me wrong!

The Oyo put Asante in check and the monarch of Asante did nothing about it. Fact.

Keep kissing Hausa and Fulani a$$ though. Maybe one day they'll notice you.

SmoothCrim: Asante's are Akan... This shows you are not intelligent and know nothing about West Africa.

Once again

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akan_people

Wow, you're just so dumb.

I never mentioned the entire ethnic group Akan and don't care to as it's irrelevant to the point I made.

SmoothCrim: Most of that is European propaganda. You have to understand the Asante defeated the British... When one is trying to conquer a kingdom you write negative propaganda about it. The fact that you don't understand this shows you are not a historian but, a dumb physics nerd.

lol @ this

Trust me, the oyibo I'm talking about, far from writing negative propaganda about it, was actually praising Ashanti at several points.

I know you like to just throw out conjectures about places and people you haven't read about though, so it's to be expected of you.
And there is no such thing as a dumb physics nerd. That's an oxymo[i]r[/i]on, you mo[i]r[/i]on.

SmoothCrim: Asante was an upstart from other kingdoms if you read... It never fully got up to its potential due to European interfearance. It only arose in 1700 while Akan Kingdoms(of which Asante grew out of) Existed as early as 1100...

Once again learn history

Why are you telling me stuff I already knew?

But it's good that it's coming from a Ghanaian so I won't be accused of bias.

I never mentioned the ethnic group Akan or prior kingdoms because they weren't relevant to my point.

SmoothCrim: A weak failed state like Nigeria today which is under attack from Boko Haram and Mend... Its influence in Dahomey was limited and it would seem an Akan kingdom had more influence there. Once again the failed state of Oyo was much like Nigeria today. Nothing to write home about...

lol @ this.

But the monarch of Asante still trembled at the thought of engaging Oyo in battle, as confirmed by oyibos, what does that say about them?

SmoothCrim: You should be worried by your masters who colonized part of your land even if they may have lost one battle or two.

Nothing is permanent. After all, Asante got put in check by a certain state to the east but later improved.

SmoothCrim: It was a weak state that everyone attacked from all angles. Why could it not push its influence into the heart of any major kingdom. That should tell you something... When one is being attacked it means they are weak. This is one getting close to the hear of what was a failed STATE!

On the first part in bold, didn't I just tell you that it conquered Dahomey?

Apparently you can't read. Anyway, the problem here is why oyibos were under the impression that the Asante monarch feared Oyo if it was so weak.

The second part in bold is just an inherently dumb statement. No comments are necessary on that.

For the record, I have nothing against the Hausa or the Asante or any group whether Ghanaian or Nigerian. I just don't like the way you went into this spontaneous Hausa-Fulani a$$licking spree because of one comment I made about al boko qaeda haram problems really being northern Nigerian derived problems (which they in fact are). If you're going to bring up history suddenly, why pretend to be an expert on it? It's unnecessary.

SmoothCrim: It did not defeat Asante. It prevented Asante from defeating it big difference. Asante pushed its influence to its borders when it was being whipped from all angles.

No.

Try and read buddy.

Asante infringed on Dahomey (in modern Benin republic, not Nigeria) slightly, and Oyo sent their people in there to put Asante in check.

That's all that happened.

SmoothCrim: The events you gave happened in the 1700's the Hausa interaction happened as early as 1500!

Did I ever make a comment on whether the Hausa & modern Ghana interaction actually happened or even comment on when it happened?

The point is the Hausa were trading with a whole bunch of people from very early times. (Modern) Ghana was just another customer.

SmoothCrim: I am proving it was a weak state. This is its own backyard!

Look at the long distance.

I don't know why we are on this tangent but, I'm loving it

You don't see why you're not making sense here?

If it was a weak state why did it conquer Dahomey and then also defeat another kingdom to the west (Asante) in battle soon after?

And try and use some common sense - they operated over that great distance because they made major use of horses.

SmoothCrim: If you knew history you would know that Asante came out of serveral Akan groups that came before it.

A simple read here would get you a good start.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akan_people

lol @ this nonsense

I know some history, that's why I said Asante specifically. When I mentioned Oyo I mentioned Oyo specifically, not the larger ethnic group to which they belong.

What I stated was correct. Whether you choose to accept it doesn't really matter. Who was organized first and who was really the upstart doesn't really matter too much to me. I was just correcting this bizarre notion you have that's making you lick Hausa and Fulani butt without anyone asking it of you.

SmoothCrim: Once again:

In the late 18th and early 19th centuries Oyo encountered a series of related military, economic and political problems which it had increasing difficulty in solving.

There is evidence of a military decline in the late 18th century. Oyo suffered defeats at the hands of the Bariba in 1783 and the Nupe in 1790. It had probably been forced to pay tribute to Nupe before this, and there was a long period of Nupe raids on the north-eastern areas of the kingdom.
http://lucy.ukc.ac.uk/YorubaT/yt2.html

Learn proper history. It is hard to push ones influence over such a distance... by all accounts it was a very weak state!

The Nupe are Fulanis and Hausas now?

The Nupe language is closer to that of other southern Nigerian languages than northern languages.

Are there Nupes and Borgu people in Ghana now? Or why are you shifting the goal post? Stop going off into tangents and just admit that you didn't know what you were talking about.