₦airaland Forum

@neotic,

noetic:
@pilgrim
2 timothy4vs7 confirms that Paul was waiting for that day!

Please confirm:

2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith.

I guess the verse you were looking for was the very next one, verse 8 -

2 Timothy 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord,
the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto
all them also that love his appearing.

Now notice carefully:

(a) Paul's reference to his "departure" is NOT the same thing as his expectation of the reward!

(b) his "departure" happened in the past (v. 6); the "reward" is in the future (v. 8).

(c) there is a huge difference between these two:

~ "the time of my departure is at hand" (v. 6)

~ "the righteous judge, shall give me at that day" (v. 8)

Please keep these things in clear perspective and try not to assume issues before you draw a conclusion.

I'll try and watch developments and then come back to share what you really are missing in assuming that the departed saints are in their graves.

Cheers.

Like I said, "Amen" to yours - God be with us.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger,
as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.



- - - - - - - - - - -

_{@OlowoTee,
Happy New Year! I trust God for many blessings in your life that will redound to His glory!}

Good sharing o jare!

Next!

@kosovo,

There is really no need to be agitated to such an extent that you begin to spiral away from what borders on the sane. If my initial reply to yours was a bit of the mark for you, here: I apologise. No need getting so worked up and assuming a position that leaves you all the more embarrassed in your statements.

Here are a few pointers you should carefully check out:

kosovo:
is ISLAM REALLY A RELEGION OF doom? just because of the fight in the middle east?

Before the fighting in the Middle East began, Islam was a religion that spelled doom for people rejected Muhammad's claims. Please leave the media for a second and turn the pages of the Qur'an and that Hadiths and see the FACTS for yourself!

kosovo:
how about when the catholics were killing women claiming they were witches.

I am not a Catholic; and we have dealt with that issue in debates with Catholics. Nowhere are such Catholic murders commanded anywhere by revelation from God as Muhammad claimed to have received "revelation" from 'Allah' to put his sword to the necks of those who rejected Islam!

kosovo:
shame on the christain brother that started this trend. because you have deflected your law: do not judge;

He has NOT deflected his law in the Bible. Please read for yourself:

John 7:24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

The ability for a man to judge issues rationally and call the bluff of Islam is why the poster would make bold to state his opinions.

Sorry, before even you could judge another, please read the Bible that explains what type of "judgement" you are referring to!

kosovo:
2
love your neigbour as your self.

Neither Islam nor Muhammad believe in that; and simply because we are asked to love our neighbour does not mean we should PRETEND that the threat of Islam should not be spoken against!

Ephesians 5:11
Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

If you love anybody, you would seek to protect them from the seriousness of the threat that many people are campaigning we should not talk about!

kosovo:
it's didnt say your christain neigbours, all your neigbours (muslim,killers,prostitute,pagans etc).

Good one - those are the same people who will read the exposure of Islam and be forwarned about what they are taking for granted!

kosovo:
So don't say SHIT any more.

yes sir - it is not considered "shit" by warning against the threat of Islam by telling the truth about what Muslims do not want you to know!

kosovo:
PEACE.
I AM JUST ME. GOD BE US

Amen!

Kobojunkie:
Here @Toluxa. A better way of reading the Bible.

I value such responses. be encouraged to keep it up!

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=48097.msg1025648#msg1025648 date=1176111424]At least, you had to click to view this thread - out of curiosity of sorts,[/quote][quote author=~Sly~(*_*) link=topic=48097.msg1837542#msg1837542 date=1199953136]yes!,no doubt about that u can see i've already clicked on it [/quote]Lol. . . wetin spark your curiosity to click in the first place? Share with us.

kosovo:
look at the person that calls himself a fucking christain. you are not worth taking TO

Agitated already, are you? First I didn't call myself by what you assumed - and second, you needn't have bothered saying anything, like I advised earlier!

I am glad that people are now encouraged to make meaningful contributions. So far, I would say that all the previous replies are setting the tone of the discussion - which again is another of contextualizing the manner in which this enigmatic subject is discussed. We all seek to be of mutual benefit to one another - and that objective should never be lost sight of!

- - - - - -

@lafile,

Thank you for making sense in your contributions. _{(Ahem! Same goes for everyone as well )} It would be hard for me to pick any line in yours to comment or elaborate on, as you've well captured my thoughts, especially this one:

lafile:
The context (and circumstances) within which it is discussed is what matters.

Cheers.

@Bobbyaf,

You have missed the whole gist of the text you quoted and rested your persuasion on an insignificant qualifier!

Bobbyaf:
A famous text used to support the argument that when a Christian dies they immediately go straight to heaven is this:-

2 Corinthians 5:8 says We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

This text in no way even remotely suggests that a Christian goes to heaven upon dying. If we read the entire passage leading up to this verse, we will see without a doubt that Paul was making a contrast between having to suffer with this mortal or earthly body, and otherwise called house in the passage, and the hope of one day possessing that heavenly body. The phrase used by him is ", willing rather to be absent from the body"

The gist of Apostle Paul's statement is not weighted against the word "rather". That word simply expresses his desire to be more inclined to departing and being with the Lord - the same Lord who is in heaven!

The "departing" was not something that was pointing to the future, as if Paul had not departed already! So your idea that it expresses "the hope of one day possessing that heavenly body" is simply reading your own personal persuasion into the text!

When you compare scripture with scripture, you find that believers who "depart" have left the body (expressing death); but they are with the Lord. That is simply what the text teaches! Unless you have atext to show that "departed" saints are still in their bodies in the grave, your idea here does not hold any substance at all.

So that we make no mistakes in what Paul was saying, please read the parallel thought expressed in his epistle to the Philippians:

Php 1:23
For I am in a strait betwixt two,
having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ;
which is far better.

Here, there is no such word as "RATHER", for I have pointed out already the fact that the weight of his statement in 2 Corinthians 5:8 does not rest on the word "rather". Paul was confident that when he departed his body, he was not going to remain in that same body in the grave! The body decomposes - but just where would Paul be while this decomposition is taking place? He already gave the answer in those two verses we just read!

Of course, we know what Paul meant by his "departure", for he spoke about it in 2 Tim. 4:6 -- "For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand". Just what exactly did Paul mean by this? Did he mean the same thing as you intoned earlier -- "the hope of one day possessing that heavenly body"?? Was Paul waiting for "one day" to come in the FUTURE before he could depart?!?

Please carefully compare scripture with scripture and seek to understand the context of what the apostle taught before resting your persuasions on a small word - such as "rather".

Shalom.

@holythug,

holythug:
but u knw we can't do witout it

Lol. . . I wasn't suggesting that we apply as nuns and monks or become eunuchs!

@Gamine,

Gamine:
Pilgrim, true talk

but really

where do we start from

E get as e be! That is why I thought of offering an enabling environment for a reflective discussion on the subject so people can bear their minds on what they think should make sense in our contemporary worldviews.

@Tayo-D,

No vex again - I meant to spend more time yesterday but suddenly got busy with loads on my desk to do.

[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=48097.msg1836293#msg1836293 date=1199904550]@topic,
Actually, I clicked on the thread because you are the author. I doubt if I would have been interested otherwise.[/quote]I was just wondering aloud that this subject is taking the world by surprise - and in most quarters, nothing about it surprises anybody anymore!

[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=48097.msg1836293#msg1836293 date=1199904550]Well, the truth is that it is hard to discuss sex without engaging ones imagination. And for those who are not married, you will be adding more kerosene to the conflagration that they are just managing to bring under control.[/quote]True that. That's why I tried to help contextualize the perspectives from which any discussant may wish to enter the discussion whenever they so wish.

So, from which perspective are you discussing - VR or NSR?

No mind me o jare. Your reposte is quite appreciated without the abbreviations.

[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=48097.msg1836293#msg1836293 date=1199904550]What more do people need to know apart from no sex outside wedlock? I really do not know that answer. Even the bible is very discreet when it comes to sex. The action is usually implied with phrases or words such as: so and so knew his wife, adultery, fornication etc. While the Songs of Solomon may be considered romantic, it still doesn't discuss the topic of sex in detail.[/quote]The highlighted part of your post is the perspective I often favour - being discreet, and making sense out of it all.

[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=48097.msg1836293#msg1836293 date=1199904550]Just curious pilgrim. You married, engaged, looking, looked, interested, uninterested etc ?[/quote]There's my answer! The crossed-out ones do not apply.

@kosovo,

kosovo:
when i even see some christain people and pastor i ask my self this question WHY?

If mouth dey pain you to talk, why not simply keep quite and observe?

I know a few Muslim people that would make you ask so many "WHY" by the way they practise their beliefs. Your idea quoted above is a waste of space if you're seeking public attention and a pat on the back.

@babs787,

Lol. . . sometimes I just like to tease you because you make such great sport of yourself.

Anyhow, I was waiting to see if you actually noticed you're on the very same thread of the "link" you were asking about; but since it's taking you forever to see it (incase you haven't seen it any earlier), here it is: (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-53767.480.html#msg1822145)

@babs787,

babs787:
@pilgrim.1

Can you please refer me that to that link?

It's not a difficult thing. Do kindly search through and you will find it.

@babs787,

babs787:
@pilgrim.1

No need to beat about the bush. All I ask of you is to tell me if your BIBLE IS COMPLETE OR NOT.

Indeed, no need to beat around anything. All I asked was this:

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=103476.msg1822998#msg1822998 date=1199544644]Drop your Muslim hypocrisy and then you will find me a pleasant discussant.[/quote]

@dafidixone,

dafidixone:
The Submision ends by January 28, 2008
Good Luck to you all.

Thanks for that quick reference on IM. I'll do my best to live up to expectations.

God bless you plenty.


- - - - - - - - -

Oya, Tayo-D. . . forward match make we carry our tolerance comot here! This thread should be as tidy as we met it. Me and you go continue our spiritual fight about the lost garden for another thread, you hear?!?

Lol. . . @Tayo-D,

Sorry, I didn't mean to log out on you - had to do a quick email thingy and chat a minute or two.

[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=104652.msg1836061#msg1836061 date=1199900580]@pilgrim1,
Kai. Chance of a lifetime. But ehm, I will be coming with some extra luggages o. Will you still welcome me if I arrive with my wifey and 2 boys? Afterall, tolerance is a Christian virtue ![/quote]Hehe!! Of course, the party will then be complete! The tolerance part is also a great virtue to keep up with - if you know how to tolerate stubborn pilgrim.1!

[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=104652.msg1836040#msg1836040 date=1199900235]@pilgrm1,
I know you never forget our misadventure in the garden, but old things have passed away now, and all things have become new. Abeg, give this bro a chance. [/quote]Oh goodness me!! I knew you'd bring that issue here about the lost garden. Bros, pay your ticket to London Heathrow, and pilgrim.1 will be waiting for you - no shakara this time!

dafidixone:
Thank you for the offer, I will appreciate it if you support as promised.

you can add me on yahoo chat so we talk and I will reveal a strategy for you to be part of the moderators. korededavid@yahoo.com add it and send me a chat and we talk now.

Shallom!

Will do the adding promptly. . . but the chat may be later (as I'm a bit clogged up just now.)  

@topic, it would be interesting to read more about this colour-changing kaa'ba.

[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=104652.msg1836011#msg1836011 date=1199899730]@pilgrim1,
I'd answer any Bible quiz if a "dinner with pilgrim1" is in the offing. [/quote]U don start O! Yeye worry you! Abeg suggest better thing make we start this exciting career o jare!

Good one dafidixone! I hope ojoro no go enter the thing O!


Meanwhile, I'd like to help out in the prizes as well (suggestions welcome).

Cheers.

Leviticus 21:6

They shall be holy unto their God, and not profane the name of their God: for the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and the bread of their God, they do offer: therefore they shall be holy.

@davidylan,

You're absolutely spot on! Thank you for helping to round off the edges in my submission, as my rejoinder would not be complete without pointing out what you did from John 4.

Meanwhile, here's another point that I have asked Muslims on another sphere to reconcile, but no answers as yet.

This is what amazes me: on the one hand, Islam permits certain things; then on the opther hand, the same Islam does not permit the same things!

    ~ Islam forbids wine and alchohol on earth; and yet promises rivers of liquer in paradise!

    ~ It forbids fornication on earth; but permits it in "temporary marriages" on earth, and sexual abundance in paradise with young virgins!

Now, this:

focused:
Why do you go to mecca to stone the devil ?

I wonder how the "stoning" of Satan/devil is believed by Muslims without questioning the hadith that says Muhammad disliked stoning:


Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 67, Num. 388:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin Maghaffal: that he saw a man throwing stones with two fingers
(at something) and said to him, "Do not throw stones, for Allah's Apostle has forbidden
throwing stones, or he used to dislike it." 'Abdullah added: Throwing stones will neither
hunt the game, nor kill (or hurt) an enemy, but it may break a tooth or gouge out an eye."
Afterwards 'Abdullah once again saw the man throwing stones. He said to him, "I tell you
that Allah's Apostle has forbidden or disliked the throwing the stones (in such a way),
yet you are throwing stones! I shall not talk to you for such-and-such a period."



Whichever particular way Muhammad liked or disliked throwing stones, it is sure to note that it can neither hurt nor kill the devil! Period!

@focused,

I understand your concerns to set our Muslim friends on a straight course in their convictions. However, when we put our persuasions across, we might help them do far better by doing our best to be fair. I applaud the fact that we have tried to demonstrate fairness in many instances; but as the Bible says, we should never be weary in well doing (Gal. 6:9).

In the spirit of that fairness, let me point out a few things to note in yours:

focused:
Why do you go to mecca to worship a black stone?

In all fairness, Muslims do not "worship" the black stone. They may bow down to it (most Muslims deny that it is Islamic to do so); or they may kiss it (which again was nowhere commanded by 'Allah', but merely as a show-off to pagans). On the whole, we understand that facing the black stone is simply idolatrous (cf. Leviticus 26:1 -- "Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God".

focused:
Polygamy is adultery. A wife is a precious pearl and not a mere possession, so you have no right to marry another spouse while the other one is alive.

It is true that polygamy is adultery. But let's remember that some of the Biblical figures were polygamous (e.g., David, Solomon). However, the main things we must never fail to point out are these:

(a) God never sanctioned polygamy at any instance

Even those who were in authority and had influence among God's people took several wives contrary to His express commandment: "Neither shall he multiply wives to himself" (Deuteronomy 17:17). Polygamy was not God's design for man - and that was made clear in Jesus' teaching (Matt. 19:8 - "but from the beginning it was not so", and we need to go back and discover what God had intended "from the beginning" for man.

(b) Justifying what God never sanctioned will lead to more sin

It should not be any more surprising to us that when Muhammad tried to justify polygamy by "revelation", that particular incident was the irrevocable turning point that established all sorts of sexual impropriety Islam. Some of the things that have evolved out of that "sex by revelation from Allah" include the fornication of "temporary" marriages. Even if one is not religiously-minded, does the idea of "temporary" marriages make any sense other than a clear pointer to the ugly sin of fornication? Where did any other prophet justify the idea of a "temporary" marriages?

When the soul is beclouded with unclean things, then that which is lewd will be regarded as "holy" by those who embrace such questionable adventures.


However, @focused, all the other points you raised are legitimate, and Muslims will do well to address them coherently, if they may.

@babs787,

babs787:
@pilgrim

You posted garbage that made no sense. Is your bible complete or not and I need straight forward answer please.

The only people who ever refer to my sane posts as "garbage" are those who can no longer understand English language! All you needed to do was upgrade your scholarship before reading my entries; and then understanding will become easier for you - and then you will see how my rejoinder cut through the conceit being pretended here as "curious 2 kno".

dafidixone:
The true God is everywhere Omnipresent.

Allah is "eastonlypresent"

@dafidixone,

Lol, abeg make una softly with these guys O! We don't want them to begin quarreling with Muhammad for shortchanging them!

- - - - - - - - - - - -

On the other hand, I was wondering if any Muslim in the house would be willing to share what they know about where 'Allah' is situated. Now, before they scratch their heads wondering about the meaning of "omnipresent", let us simply offer that it ordinarily means "being present everywhere at once".

Now, is 'Allah' omnipresent, or he sits stationary in the east?

Perhaps this is not the right thread to discuss this; but we don't mind if any Muslim opens a new thread to discuss this issue and its implications.

Gentlemen, your discussions have been interesting. I'd initially wanted to weigh in at some point, but thought it would be more interesting to watch the discussion progress and let my teachers enrich our knowledge!

Well done - and please keep the gist spirited!

Ganjaseed:
The Roma Catholics church is indeed a church, but they worship the devil himself.

Oh my goodness! This one pass my stubborness last year O!