₦airaland Forum

Aha! E get as e be O! Your query is too linear to address and arrive at any coherent answers. Maybe if you expatiate the circumstances, then people might be able to share something reasonable with you.

Shalom.

There is no problem (IMHO) with facing a particular direction for prayers. I am in no position to dispute the fact or spiritual meaning of prophets facing a particular direction to pray - as did Daniel:

Daniel 6:10
Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house;
and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled
upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God,
as he did aforetime.


Also, during the dedication prayer of Solomon, the idea of turning in prayer towards a particular direction was not strange:

1 Kings 8:44-45
If thy people go out to battle against their enemy, whithersoever thou shalt send them,
and shall pray unto the LORD toward the city which thou hast chosen, and toward the
house that I have built for thy name: Then hear thou in heaven their prayer and their
supplication, and maintain their cause.

These are issues that are clearly presented in the Bible. However, my question was about turning towards a BLACK STONE to pray - that is the core issue here, I suppose.

If we look closely at 1 Kings 8:44-45, we see two things highlighted:

~ (a) the people were to turn towards the CITY that God had chosen

~ (b) the people were to tunr towards the HOUSE that Solomon had built for His Name

When I started investigating my former religion and started reading the Bible for myself (to reject the duplicity of the ulema - Muslim scholars), I understood that the Biblical scriptures in those verses had never been changed in history!

Now my mind and heart were alert, and the questions that I had to settle were these:

1. Was the CITY in that verse the same as MECCA?

Answer: NO! Solomon did not refer to Mecca.

2. Was the HOUSE the same as the Kaa'ba?

Answer: NO! Solomon did not refer to Kaa'ba.

I stopped listening to the Islamic LIE that the Kaa'ba was the original house of God - built originally by ADAM. . . (or as others claim through Islamic "legend" built originally by Ishmael and Abraham!

None of the Biblical prophets were associated with the Kaa'ba - and even historians know that Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem is NOT the same spot as the idol house of Kaa'ba in Mecca!!

This is the reason why nwando pointed out that the sudden change in Muhammad's idea of changing from formerly facing Jerusalem towards facing Mecca is a FRAUD. There is nothing "divine" or revelatory about it other than Muhammad's sudden hatred for Jews and Christians!!

God welcomes the prayers of those who receive His love through Jesus Christ - regardless of where they are, or where they face!

@babs787,

babs787:
@pilgrim.1 & Bobbyaf

Please let us get back to the topic of this thread and if you want to argue over physical and spiritual death, you can always create a thread for that pleaseeeeeeeee

We have been on the issues that you offered; and if you could not stand to logically follow the discussion, what are you complaining about?

@ismailys20,

ismailys20:
I KNOW THIS MAY SOUND NASTY , BUT I BELIEVE IT HAS SOME MERITS.

I don't assume that your persuasions sound "nasty" until you help to confirm it so.

ismailys20:
JESUS AS A SON OF GOD HOW TRUE IS IT.

The Bible declares the FACT - both by OT prophecies; and in the NT teaching where He stated it so by Himself.

ismailys20:
MUSLIMS BELIEVE GOD HAS NO SON AND HE IS IN NEED OF NONE.

That is okay - I was once a Muslim who believed that previously. I have come to see that God indeed has a divine Son - not because He "NEEDED" to have one; but because the uncreated Son ever existed with the Father. Rather than God having a "need", it is mankind who NEEDS to understand the revelation of the Son of God!

ismailys20:
ARGUMENT APART , GOD EXISTENCE HAS NO BEGINNING AND NO END,

Which also is the teaching of the Bible.

ismailys20:
MEANING THAT HE WILL NEVER GROW OLD, GET TIRED , NOR DIE AND DEFINITELY NEEDS NO
HEIR.

You cannot be too sure what Muhammad thought of 'Allah', for he claimed once that Allah was HURT! What's the difference between an 'Allah' who gets HURT and your claims above?

ismailys20:
SO I ASK WHAT DOES HE NEED A SON FOR.

As explained above. Man is in "need" of receiving and understanding who the Son of God truly IS.

babs787:
@Davidylan

I don't know when you will stop fooling yourself just like you have been doing in most threads.

[s]1.Did God give Jesus a revelation or four revelations (mathew, mark, Luke and John)

2. Are the four writers really eye witness to what really happened
3 Are they all under inpiration?
4. Was the revelation revealed during Jesus' time or after his death?
5.What does the Injil contains?[/s]

Thanks

@babs787,

When your mendacity has run out of gas to cease from your own foolery, please attend the simple question I asked as reason for opening this thread, thank you.

You cannot come with your usual Islamic hypocrisy and penchant for keeping this adventures of "LYING for 'Allah'" on this thread. Find me that verse where the Qur'an claimed to have come to "correct" the Biblical scriptures, or simply apologise to your 'Allah' that your attempt to force words into his mouth did not work here!

Your attempt to try ever so hard to change or deflect the focus of this thread is a waste of your internet resources. The Islamic fraud you parade for "intelligence" is a sham, and your efforts to mend your holes here is a laugh!


Four pages LATER, and yet my simple questions are taking Muslims forever to answer!!

On the first page, I had made this observation:

---

[list]
According to babs787, the Qur'an came to "CORRECT" some perceived 'mistakes' in the "original message". That is a dubious statement not even supported by the Qur'an - unless babs787 is hell-bent on forcing words into Allah's mouth to make him say what he never said in the Qur'an!

He is fond of making such hypocritical statements while claiming them to be what the Qur'an says. For example, it was the same babs787 who lied to the public on this Forum that the Qur'an was "stating" that the Torah was lost - see again:

IS THE QURAN WRONG IN STATING THAT THE TORAH WAS LOST OR CORRUPTED?

(Source: babs787's assertion in another thread)

Can we ask babs787 to please kindly quote where the Qur'an was "stating" that the Torah was LOST! Without the usual drama of long stories, WHERE did the Qur'an "STATE" that the Torah was LOST, babs787?

Up to the present date, he has not offered an answer to his assertive denials - and I've already bleached that duplicity in a relevant thread.[/list]

---

Up until the present, you have only come back proving far worse than when you first began! You have proven that Muslims can no longer understand English (which is why you were using the gimmick of begging that the meaning of "confirmation" be reposted on the previous page 3 from the first page). You have also proven beyond any shadow of doubt that you simply know how too well to LIE for "Allah" - and that campaign has not blessed Islam one bit!

As many times as you try to deflect this thread and shamlesssly produce your emptiness for not finding that verse for the claimed Qura'n coming to "correct" the Biblical scriptures - that is how many times you will continue to confirm the slicker that you are! Please come back and confirm it!

kalokalo:
Since both christian and islamic scriptures agree that we are made in God's image,

It is the Bible that makes clear the fact that man is (a) made in God's image; and (b) man is a triune (or "tripartite" being with spirit, soul and body (e.g., 1 Thes. 5:23).

Islamic writs do not agree either with (a) or (b) - and that is why Muslims have a difficulty understanding the doctrine of the Trinity. Apart from that, it is clear that Muhammad simply had no clue about the meaning of the Trinity - and that is why he propounded two huge fallacies and claimed they were "revelations" from 'Allah':

~ Muhammad assumed that the Trinity comprised the Father, the Son and MARY
(the Bible NEVER once taught that Mary was part of the Trinity - so where at all
did Muhammad derive that fallacy from, if not from the Catholic Church? I have asked
several times how a such a colossaly FALSE "revelation" could be coming from
"Allah" when the FACT is that MARY was never part of the Trinity in the Bible!!
see the Qur'an, chapters 4 v 171;   5 v 73; and  5 v 116).


~ he mistook the angel Gabriel (Jibril) as "the Holy Spirit"
(this obviously is a blatant fallacy, because ALL the Biblical prophets who
were inspired by God did NOT at any time assume that colossal confusion
to make Gabriel the same as the Holy Spirit! NOT ONCE in the entire Bible!
On the contrary, the Bible clearly demonstrates that Gabriel was an angel,
as disntinct from the Holy Spirit Himself - see Daniel 3 v 28;  6 v 22 and 8 v 15-16).


If these huge fallacies are the foundation upon which Islam is predicated, why would anyone in their sane spiritual minds assume that Muhammad's Qur'an should be the arbiter of sound Biblical revelation to ALL the Biblical prophets? Why should a fallacy be the criteria for settling Biblical revelations?

@mdsocks,

How body?

I just get one kweshun to ask:

WHY does anyone have to face the direction of a black stone in order for his or her prayers to be pleasing to 'Allah'?

@ismailys20,

ismailys20:
the issue here is in islam we have rules and laws , which you have to follow and obey accordingly.
and as a divine religion you do what you are truly ordained by THE ALMIGHTY

The questions are straightforward and Muslims have not been able to clarify issues. Does it sound coherent to you that you simply "follow and obey according" the very things which you have no answers to offer for clarifying the queries posted?

@babs787,

babs787:
@pilgrim.1

Ask Tayo-D and he will respond to your mischief

Thank you. A simple question now reads as "mischief" in your Islamic propaganist ideology. Anyway, I saw the thread where he posted it; and I have also made a preliminary post of the confusion among Muslims claiming the history of the Kaa'ab was either a "legend" from 'Adam' or contrarily originating with Abraham.

@babs787,

babs787:
@syuser

Your post amuse me a lot because you quote of context and give them different interpretation. Let me go through the verses quoted by you

Why are you such a plagiarist performer? You borrow words and clichés from Christians these days - and the latest is the quoting out of "context" thing. Nobody heard this from you until you read it in Christian replies. How many verses of the Bible have you not snatched from their contexts and given them a linear interpretation that rubbishes your boast of having been a Bible expert?

babs787:
Did Muhammad ever claim to be christ?

Brother that quotes out of context, the verses are referring to nowadats pastors, saint paul and even you. Read it again and deny that fact

Confusion at best! WHERE did Paul EVER claim to be Christ? Why are you allowing your Muslim hate for Paul to drive you so blindly that you can no longer tell simple truth any more?

babs787:
Do you have any biblical evidence from bible dictionary, enclopedia and from OT prophets on trinity? It seems you still need more exposure after exposing the fraud in this your trinity.

We have been waiting for your exegesis on when John 1:1 was EVER changed. What happened to the Muslim denial of the FACT that Isaiah 9 v 6 was NEVER changed in history from the very day that it was penned? How about Psalm 2 v 7 - did 'Allah' miss that verse that was never changed before assuming it was a Muslim "revelation" which Muhammad claimed 'Allah' sent down the Zabur to David? Besides, after Muslims have run behind cover from their confusing and contradictory sources attacking the Gospel of John, we didn't hear them say anything else other than drool AWAY FROM the simple queries that were posed!

babs787:
Please what is the m,eaning of the verses above? I need your explanation to be able to tear the verses into pieces.

That has been your agenda - to tear verses into pieces because "Allah's" own are LOST!

babs787:
Hey, have you seen the thread on those that have reverted to Islam? Please do and get in touch

We've seen them - very enlightening to see that majority of them "reverted" from a normal life to becoming TERRORISTS! Go to that same thread and see the facts from the list given by the original poster! The one thing that amuses us is that, as Muslims claim that Islam is the fastest growing religion, we see WHY suicide bombers have grown so quickly as well!

babs787:
Brother, I pity christians that die as one.

Save your symnpathy. Even your signature says that people should not die as Muslims:

                "Die EXCEPT As A Muslim!"

You may not know what a 'signature' is, so just look at the bottom line of your posts, okay?

Those who die as Christians have a blessed hope of a glorious resurrection. They will never enter into Hell, nor even be brought near to it!

The sad thing is that 'Allah' made a promise to take every Muslim to Hell by an irrevocable decree - and Islam (confused as its 'explanations' could be) does not deny the FACT!!

babs787:
It is hell fire straight

Lol. . . that is what 'Allah' precisely promised Muslims.

babs787:
and please let me have the verses from your bible saying that non-christian will go to hell

Did you not claim to have been very knowledgeable on the Bible? You don forget the verses so quickly? This hypocritic slangs of "let me have" this and that is the typical Muslim excuse for scurrying away from their deathknell. The verses are there - bring them forward without waiting for your excuses - Christians do not wait before quoting your Qur'an and posting the Hadiths; we don't play these hide-and-seek games you always pretend!

babs787:
and was Jesus a christian?

WHERE did it ever say in the Bible that He was a Muslim?

babs787:
Continue deceiving yourself.I have left your religion for good and I am imploring you to do same having served you truth.

It's going to be hard to bring someone over to Islam by your well-established deceit! Besides, you were never a Christian, and I have demonstrated the fact. Wallowing in darkness (as you claimed) is not the same thing as being actually born again - you may have made the claim and yet not effectively demonstrated it!

So, if you crossed from your darkness (of thinking you were born again) into further darkness (which you now call Islam), it does not surprise anybody that you have been on a campaign to further that same darkness with your conceit.

When will you remove yourself from the attitude of no longer being able to tell simple truth?

mazaje:
seems you have forgotten that the christains exterminated and killed more people in history than the muslims, the Cathars and the Knights Templars were all killed by the christains during the time of inqusition. Hitler worked with the roman Catholic Church to exterminate the jews in the world but the whole story was spinned and the thruth was never told to the people.

On the bright side, Islam is only 1,300 years old, and religions have a definite life-cycle, just like people. If you look at Christianity in 1300 C.E., two words spring to mind: Inquisition and Crusade(some of the greatest crimes to humanity). Maybe the 1300s are just the rebellious teenage years for islam, it too like christianity will change with time.

"The games Muslims play" - have you read that article?

Now wake up and shed yourself of this day-dreaming.

~ Who is calling for the death of Jews and Christians TODAY?

~ Who cursed Jews and Christians until his last breath - and his curses have failed?

~ Who had so much hate for Jews and Christians that he "prophesied" that the LAST HOUR
would not come until his followers kill every Jew, even trees talking to reveal the Jews?

~ Who are the world's global threat to you because you are not a MUSLIM?

Where are the "Christian hadiths" from which the Popes and Hitler got their "commandments" to kill people?

@dimpules,

dimpules:
@pilgrim1

What will Jesus do?

. . .

As Christians what are our spiritual weapons? Is it the condemning words we say? No. Its prayer, fasting and the word. Do you believe in the power of these? if you do you wont say there are mere.

I am sorry that you quickly assumed that my rejoinder translated into using "condemning words". However, let me ask you a pointed question:

What DID Jesus do - when He encountered religious folks who refused to face up to truth?

What DID Jesus do, dimpules?

Here, let me remind you of a few:

Matthew 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom
of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them
that are entering to go in.

Matthew 22:18
But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

Luke 12:3
Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light;
and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon
the housetops.

It is good too see Jesus as the loving Messiah who went about with edifying words. He actually had "edifying" words for hypocrites who are not interested in acknowledging the truth they know, nor would they let others live in peace!

I'm not suggesting "what would Jesus do" - I'm asking us to look directly at what Jesus DID!

Oh, wait. . . did He pray for them? Oh yes, He did!

Did He use the Word? Sure, He did!

Did He not fast for them? He certainly did!

And the result of all this? Please look again:

Matthew 13:15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing,
and their eyes they have closed;
lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,
and should understand with their heart, and should be converted,
and I should heal them.

Yes, no denying the fact - THEY by themselves have chosen to close their eyes!! God didn't close it for them, pilgrim.1 didn't close it for them! Whenever they choose to open their eyes, God WILL heal them!

I don't boast about praying for anybody - I like to shut up about it and instead let God alone see and hear that I actually do pray for them. But He also wants me to keep sharing the hard truth - perhaps some might come to see it someday - whenever they choose to open their eyes.

Cheers.

A Special Appeal!

PS. This is just asides and an amicable offer to some Muslims who have been emailing me:

Since it is impossible for me to cope with the many emails you send, I beg you Muslim emailers (especially "Abdul", "Tafiq', "Nasiru" who have been inundating my e-box recently, to understand just two things:

(a) I have nothing bitter against anybody (Muslim, Christian, or other)
My posts may come across passionately, but I would rather you try
and dicuss them and point out where you assume I was lying against
the Qur'an, Muhammad, 'Allah', the Bible or Jesus Christ.

(b) that is why instead of wasting precious time trying to appease you
by responding to your individual emails, I am asking/requesting or even
inviting you to register on Nairaland, post your concerns, share what
you think you know, demonstrate where you think my posts are lies,
and help the public reader understand better the issues we are seeking
answers to.

Yes, indeed, to the queries that have angered you most recently -

[list]
~ I have the references in the Qur'an where 'Allah' referred to another Supreme Deity apart from himself;

~ I have facts about Muslims in early Islamic history who have referred to Muhammad as "Lord" (and many Muslims today are desperate to erase this from the public; but few sources still address him as "liege-Lord');

~ I have facts and references from Islamic sources about what Muhammad really thought about 'Allah' that many Muslims have never taken their time to consider when they mendaciously attack Jews and Christians on the Biblical scriptures.[/list]

The reason I have not rushed to give you those references by email is because I prefer sharing them on the Forum BEFORE sharing them privately.

And to the so-many-times-repeated questions of where I am located or work or my University or which Church I attend, my answers remain the same. I cannot reveal any more than that - and it is sufficient that you reached me by email, thank you.

I have a lot of Muslim friends (as well as Catholic, ex-Catholics, Grail Messengers, Hindus in my university, and non-religious/free-thinkers). I appreciate all of them, especially those who have taken time to challenge me for the better. I need to pay attention to them as well.

So, to make things easier for all of us, please come to the Forum and let everyone benefit from whatever vexations you may have.

For all your subsequent emails, I'll simply post you a link to this appeal; so please don't consider it as being rude if you no longer receive replies from me henceforth. At least, I have tried to be reasonable with you lot.

Thank you in anticipation of your compliance.

olu4life:
Please is d holy bible complete because am curious 2 kno? And please this thread is not 4 getin upclose and personal our dear pilgrim. D chapters that i listd above (but not all) were all in d old testament but dere was no new chapter in d new testament. As dose who want 2 kno d bible am talkin about, it is d ILLUSTRATED BIBLE (New Jerusalem Version)

@olu4life,

Even though I'm quite occupied, before my schedule gets really clogged up this week, here's a quick reply to yours.

I'm not one of those you can easily goad into a so-called "curiosity" 2 kno; nor am I one of those who gets upclose and personal. If discussants are willing to enter into a genuine discussion or debate without ulterior motives, I have never been shy in proffering answers to their genuine enquiries.

What you have offered here is simply a false alarm dressed up as a "curious 2 kno" agenda. WHY? For the simple fact that this same issue has been addressed one TOO MANY times already! Lazy thinkers who "want 2 kno d bible" should have done some homework themselves and realized that the New Jerusalem Bible was a Catholic sponsored project that has NO FIDELITY to God's WORD!! I have addressed this very issue AGAIN and AGAIN in several threads - see just one example: (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-83120.64.html#msg1627876). Let me quote you an excerpt:

---

[list]
Now a word as to translations of the Bible. It is important that we understand the revelation of God in His WORD as He has given it. Translations in many instances do not convey the accurate reading of the texts in their original languages - and we have seen this time and again.

The fact that even the Catholic Church has not been satisfied with a single English translation of the Bible is the reason why she has sponsored several translations in English - including the New American Bible (NAB, 1970), the Jerusalem Bible, JB 1966 [which was subsequently revised to produce the New Jerusalem Bible, NJB 1985), the Douay-Rheims (DRB, 1582-1610), and the Challoner-Rheims (1752, a revision of the DRB) which heavily reflect Roman Catholic slant of doctrines than fidelity to the Biblical texts.[/list]

---

I also took time to explain why Catholic-sponsored translation work on the Bible is a sad adventure for the gullible reader - the example I gave on Genesis 3 v 15!!

Not only so, I have often hinted on WHY Muhammad was heavily influenced by Catholicism and went on to make a huge fallacy in the Qur'an where he assumed that the Trinity was comprised of the Father, the Son and MARY!! Go through the Bible yourself - any translation, any version - and you will never find any verse where Biblical Christianity EVER assumed that MARY was part of the Trinity! So where did Muhammad derive that fallacy from and included it in the Qur'an as a "revelation" from 'Allah'?

This is just the kind of thing that the Muslim enjoys - because when he considers the TRANSLATIONS, VERSIONS and commentaries of men who have lost touch with God (such as the NIV Commentaries in so MANY instances), the Muslim then thinks he has enough ammunition against the Bible itself which he seeks to castigate. If you bring up that same rule of thumb and examine the translations and versions of the Qur'an, you find even more colossal controversies that Muslim translators and scholars up until this very day have never attempted resolving.

There are two basic reasons why your so-called "curiosity" is simply a pretence (sorry, but truth hurts):

~ (a) you pretended this is a fresh enquiry by recycling issues that have been soundly addressed;

~ (b) you obviously refused to do some homework yourself and share knowledge with people.

I do not wait to trump up "questions" for any curiosity for others to address: I prayerfully ask for help that God may grant me wisdom, mercy and truth to understand His revelation and purposes, regardless the bitter accusations that men (whether Christians, Muslims, or others) have pretentiously alleged against His WORD.

Whatever people have said against the Bible (I also was guilty of the same), yet it is the same Bible (not Catholic agenda in the NJB) that set me free and gave me such fervent hope in the love and redemption which God has offered the world through His Son, Jesus Christ. No matter the bitter accusations against the Bible, it still carries the message of salvation in the MESSIAH that all the prophets (OT and NT) have preached and taught - that God may be glorified in the earth.

Lol. . . @focused,

focused:
I have always ask these Islamic people that : Can anyone (Human being ) physically defend God Almighty ? Why not call on your God ( Sorry allah) to defend himself and prove himself to his creatures.

It's not 'Allah' that they are trying to defend in reality. The real figure that they try to "defend" is Muhammad.

Why do Muslims not show as much reverence for any of the prophets that they claim Islam recognizes? Afterall, Muhammad himself claimed that he was not even better than Jonah - and people have castigated Jonah till the fish were so embarrassed! Yet, Muslim reaction towards any other prophets from the more than 124,000 prophets of Islam is a mere shrug of the shoulders.

@olabowale,

olabowale:
@Davidylan; In Surah Isra verse 42, God Almighty says, 'if there are gods, instead of One God, each god would be doing their own thing, and each is trying to outshine the other, and they may actually combine their efforts together to want to oppose the Supreme God!'

Did you know at all that 'Allah' recognized another Supreme Deity in the same Qur'an?

I guess this is going to be a big shout for Muslims; but relax - you guys have simply ignored that verse like a plague while you went about castigating the revelation of God Himself in the Bible.

Perhaps, this will be a true test of two things:

      (a) how much of Islam you truly know

      (b) how sincere you are in acknowledging simple facts.

Christians are not people who rush to make noise when Muslims try to frantically make so much cavil. Even the Qur'an says that Christians are people who are devoted to learning and are not arrogant - and Muslims will do well to emulate such demeanour from us.

Of course, I certainly have my facts before I point this out. The one reason why I have not referred to that point all this while is twofold:

       ~ to enable Muslims and forumites see what Muhammad actually thought of 'Allah'

       ~ to enable us discuss who 'Allah' was recognizing as Lord apart from himself.

Details in due course. For now, go grab your Qur'an and dress warm, because the websites from where you guys often run to for plagiarized materials will not be able to help in this matter at all!

Enjoy!

Wordsmith:
. . .because he simply doesn't want to be honest (lol, isn't it obvious?)

Finito!

SysUser:
Why is it that these so called allah's heaven, greek god's heaven and mormon heaven have a common denominator of sexual perversion

2 Peter 2:10, 14 & 19

But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness,
and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are
not afraid to speak evil of dignities. . .

Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin;
beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with
covetous practices; cursed children

While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants
of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he
brought in bondage.

If a lifestyle is so driven by sex, especially when that lifestyle seeks to justify its actions and motives by some "revelations", we should be on the alert.

Dear Bobbyaf,

I think you have taken great effort to say the same thing and yet not arrived at any cogent point that would clearly enunciate your persuasion. Let me highlight them in simple terms:

#1. My argument is that the Bible does not teach that spiritual death is a gradual process, as you had mistakenly assumed:

Bobbyaf:
My understanding of Genesis 2:17 is that both our parents Adam and Eve would experience both a physical and spiritual decline, or put another way, they would gradually lose the image of their Creator as time progressed.

Spiritual death set in the moment they sinned - it was not a matter of "spiritual decline" . . . or as "time progressed". Even the argument that they would "gradually lose the image of their Creator" is not taught in Scripture - and that is the point that I've tried to outline for you earlier. Nowhere is death (whether physical or spiritual) a matter of "gradual", "decline", "progress" or whatever else - and that is precisely where you are mixing up issues here!

The analogy that you gave does not even help your persuasion. If one's sister experienced physical death, does that come GRADUALLY? Do you say that someone started dying since last week . . or last year? My brother, death is instanteneous - and depending on the context, it is either it occured at the moment inferred, or it did not occur at all.


#2, My second persuasion is precisely opposite to this:

Bobbyaf:
To say that they both experienced spiritual death is like saying that their hope of spiritual restoration ceased before it even started. You bring as it were a certain suddenness to the whole thing. Adam and Eve did not totally lose their grasp on spiritual matters. If that were the case then they would have hardly had a reason to remain alive.

That someone is spiritually dead does not mean that his or her hope of "spiritual restoration" ceased. The Bible clearly says that we were DEAD in sins (Ephesians 2:1 & 5) - dead spiritually; such that we were "without Christ, . .  having no hope, and without God in the world" (verse 12). Unless these verses are not in the Bible, I don't see how anyone would be espousing the idea that spiritual death means that one's hope of restoration had ceased - when in fact the Bible says we were WITHOUT hope!

This is not my idea - I'm keen on what the Bible simply teaches. And until we look into God's WORD and settle our thoughts on what it teaches, this argument may go on for ever away from what Scripture teaches.

Cheers.

@olabowale,

What is all the hide-and-seek about?

Okay, I know I am supposed to be on break - I will take off soon. . . my schedule during the week is very busy!

But just learn to be human enough to respect the convictions of Christians. You cannot use Muhammad's denials to be castigating the Bible after YOU have quoted from it to accredit Muhammad's adventures.

Let us discuss - if you want to. But if you would rather be appearing and disappearing to make brigand remarks against Christianity and the Bible, em. . . I may not take too lightly to your attitude, and will take time out to address your vexations whenever I return (however long that takes).

Enjoy your Muslim holiday and be good!

Make una easy on the guy O!

@olabowale,

olabowale:
The Islamic answer to your father god, is There is Only One God. That God has no Beginning, no Ending,

The Biblical answer to your vexations is that Muhammad DENIED the Fatherhood of God which the OLD TESTAMENT prophets declared right from the Torah all through to the prophecies of the prophets who came after Moses!

We've been through this issue before, you never sought to discuss but went about deliberately deriding what you have no clues about simply because Muhammad has been exposed for the false prophet that he is!

olabowale:
He was not begotten and He beget none and nothing is similar to Him!

Then certainly, you have no clue that you have rubbished the Qur'an - because 'Allah' who claimed to have sent down the Zabur (Psalms) to Dabid must obviously have forgotten that the same David wrote in the Psalms by inspiration that God was speaking directly when He said:

Psalm 2:7
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me,
Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Did 'Allah' not see this verse in the Zabur BEFORE he sent Muhammad with an Arabic Qur'an to claim that he came to confirm it! The one thing you guys are expert at is to DENY and rubbish even what you claim you believe in!

olabowale:
To your son god, is Jesus, a mere human prophet/messenger to the Children of Israel.

Another LIE. I have already shared VERSES to show that He is the Saviour of the WORLD - and MANY Jews believed on Him as well as Gentiles who are in the multitude! If Jesus was merely for the Jews, why do YOU, olabowale as a yoruba man believe in the same Jesus? Don't you see how you further rubbish your own claims in the Qur'an?

If Jesus was merely for the Israelites, you have no reason to believe in Him as YOUR prophet - and the Qur'an will be a FRAUD that it actually is!

olabowale:
And your holy ghost god, is Angel Gabriel (Ruuh, Ruuh Qudus, Malaika Jibril, etc), a mere tool of God, just like every Angel. And just like everything else, in creation.

Sorry, it was Muhammad who misconceived the idea that the Biblical Holy Spirit was angel Gabriel (Jibril). Further, the angel Gabriel does not press anybody in any cave - so go and find out who pressed Muhammad in the cave and gave him such a fright that he could not tell the difference between the Holy Spirit and Gabriel!!

@olabowale,

olabowale:
@By the way, I posed the John 1 verse 21 to a Pastor. Its about a whole week now, he is still checking all the Biblical material resources. And he has not come up with an answer yet!

This is what John 1 verse 21 says:

John 1:21
And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias?
And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet?
And he answered, No.

This verse was not in reference to Jesus Christ, but rather a record of the event when "the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?" (John 1:19). Nobody has tried to compare John the Baptist with Moses, because everyone knows that the prophecy in Deuteronomy was not referring to him. So how come you are the only one confused about John 1:21? Perhaps the pastor to whom you had posed that question simply did not answer you to allow you time enough to keep fooling yourself on your worries on that verse.

The Deuteronomy 18 prophecy that Muslim propagandists have tried to pirate for Muhammad has been thorough bleached - you Muslims on this Forum know that so well; and that is why you are having sleepless night over it. The reason you are so bitter on this issue is because you know that the truth is squarely staring you in the face, and since Muhammad in not the prophet in Deuteronomy, it proves the Qur'an is a huge FRAUD pretended as a "revelation" from 'Allah'.

olabowale:
And I already told him that after his answer of the three distinct prophets being expected, then I pose the same question to him as it was later posed to Jesus son of Virgin Mary. I want to nail him to the cross, because he will have two sets of diffrent answers, Jesus answers will be different from John Zachariah's. Then he will not be able to explain the 'are you the prophet part!'

Wishful thinking! If you already sound confused yourself and mixing up Biblical verses the way Muhammad mixed them up in the Qur'an, it is no wonder that you're hoping to nail your so-called pastor!

olabowale:
Fortunately for me, when he was reading from his own Bible it reads ' prophets (plural)!' I just laughed, because he has already dug his own latrine, thanks to his own Bible!

This is how you make bloviated boasts that amount to nothing.

The John 1:21 verse that you are referring to does not read "prophet[b]s[/b]" in plural! Please go and read the verse again for your own conscience's sake!

The only verse in the entire first chapter of the Gospel of John that has the word "prophet[b]s[/b]" in plural is John 1 v 45 (and not verse 21!!) --

John 1:45
Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him,
We have found him, of whom Moses in the law,
and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth,
the son of Joseph.

Olabowale, please pack your shakara one corner! What verse in John chapter 1 did you see the word "prophet[b]s[/b]" in plural?!? Make you take style dey blow hot lies for public O. . . one day your mendacity will catch up with you in the very wrong place - if you don't repent before it is too late!

@olabowale,

What is chasing you that these days you seem to be quarreling with yourself and rubbishing your own Qur'an and Muhammad's Sunnah with such brigand and senseless arguments? I hope nothing O. . . abi your anti-depressants have expired (after losing your nose-ring).

Anyhow, let me show you one more of those cowardly hide-and-seek bloviates in your recent submission:

olabowale:
The only thing that you have in the Bible/Christianity is the feel good doctrine, ain't?

The Bible is not about a "feel good" doctrine. It shows man the true state of his heart and the remedy of God's love offered in His Son Jesus Christ to bring everlasting righteousness and victory over sin, Satan and hell.

That is why you will not find any believer in the Bible expecting the prospect of a hatman decree from 'Allah', inspite of the fact that the 'Allah' of Islam delights in filling Hell with mankind and jinns.

That is why you will not find any Biblical prophet praying to be delivered from a personal devil, as one of Muhammad's nightly prayers was: "O Allah! forgive me my sin, drive away my devil" (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 41, Num. 5036). No Biblical prophet ever had a personal devil ("my devil"; and the Bible shows that God would not have a prophet who went about with such an idea!

That is why again you will not find God condoning indiscriminate sexual immorality or lewdness in the Bible, such as Muhammad was boasted among his companions and wives to have had the sexual strength of 30 men! Aside the FACT that Muhammad justified his sexual lust with pretended "revelations" from 'Allah', you will not find such a thing among the Biblical prophets seeking to justify sexual lusts with any revelation from God!

You are set in your ways to often deride Christianity and the Bible. Rather than follow the same pattern, I'd rather present the hard facts from the Qur'an and Hadiths so that you will see that our convictions and persuasions are not based on the irreverent propaganda of Muslims such as you are!

olabowale:
How can Prophet King David fasting be mentioned, in it? Afterall, you may be required to observe it!

Indeed, David's fasting IS mentioned in the Bible in several verses, as davidylan has hinted earlier. A few of those verses:

(#1) 2 Samuel 1:11-12
(David and all those with him fasted for Saul and Jonathan)
Then David took hold on his clothes, and rent them; and likewise
all the men that were with him: And they mourned, and wept,
and fasted until even, for Saul, and for Jonathan his son, and for
the people of the LORD, and for the house of Israel; because
they were fallen by the sword.

(#2) 2 Samuel 12:16
(David fasted for the child he had through Bathshebah)
David therefore besought God for the child;
and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.

(#3) Psalm 35:1 & 10
(David's fasting in the Psalm he wrote)
<A Psalm of David.> Plead my cause, O LORD, with them
that strive with me: fight against them that fight against me.
. . But as for me, when they were sick, my clothing was sackcloth:
I humbled my soul with fasting; and my prayer returned into
mine own bosom.

(#4) Psalm 69:1 & 10
(David's fasting in another one of his Psalms)
<To the chief Musician upon Shoshannim, A Psalm of David.>
Save me, O God; for the waters are come in unto my soul.
When I wept, and chastened my soul with fasting,
that was to my reproach.

(#5) Psalm 109:1 & 24
(David's fasting in yet another one of his Psalms)
<To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.> Hold not thy peace,
O God of my praise; . . My knees are weak through fasting;
and my flesh faileth of fatness.

Dear olabowale, ignorance is NOT bliss. Instead of opening your mouth and spewing forth such gutter about what you don't know in the Bible, why don't you open its beautiful pages and READ it?!? The Book doesn't bite; and even though you are so scared of Paul, and so confused of your malady about what "version" to read (as if there are no DIFFERENT "versions" of the Qur'an saying DIFFERENT things), why don't you lay down your prejudice and read the Bible for yourself so you have the FACTS instead of speaking from vanishing smoke in the air?

olabowale:
It is the same David that you call an adulterer and killer of innocent persons, that you shamelessly attach your god human lineage to!

Even Muhammad did NOT deny that FACT! You may be upset and say all kinds of shameful things against David; but as I have shown earlier, MUHAMMAD himself said that the same David (whom you conveniently termed "an adulterer and killer of innocent persons" is the BEST WORSHIPPER of 'Allah'!!!

It therefore pays to acknowledge the "best" - and yes, since Muhammad could acknowledge that David was the BEST WORSHIPPER in the eyes of 'Allah', why should we be ashamed to recognize that Jesus traces his lineage to the same "best worshipper" of God?

My dear olabowale, you are too busy embarrassing yourself and thereby weakening your defences for 'Allah' and his slave, Muhammad. The vexations you have been posting in recent times only further dent the credence of Islam, for it is not a virtue to be known for 'lying for Allah'.

Shalom.

@olabowale,

How body? Isn't it amazing that you often crawl out of your cubicle when you feel the coast is clear?

olabowale:
: So if I do not become a yes lord person to Jesus, IshaAllah, it will happen, then you must declare Allah as your Lord, Islam your religion and Muhammad as your Messenger! Deal? If you are confident, then put it there. Am waiting.

We are also waiting - on one condition: if you guys have finished with your bloviates and mendacity for the cause of Islam, especially when you wayo the Forum with bloviates and lies, then we shall see how far that takes YOU!

@Zeta,

Zeta:
Wait people.I am a christian and i believe Jesus came to save all of our lives from eternal destruction.

Okay, we may simply take your word from it - my apologies personally to have concluded earlier that you were not a Christian (it was hard to see how you could have been one).

However, I think Ndipe's advice should sum everything for you - it is timely and will save you loads of trouble:

Ndipe:
Any organization that does not accept the Physical death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ is a fraud!. Steer clear from them.

Cheers.

@davidylan,

davidylan:
u're more confused than ever . . . so 6 billion people will have to learn arabic by force before they can pray to allah or even hope to read his quran?
Why then did allah bother creating all the languages? why not let everyone be able to speak just arabic to make life easier?
So the isoko man and the Chinese villager have to search for an arabic teacher before they can pray to allah?

The best prayer is 'Allahu akbar' (nwando's allahu arch-bar). Unless you can find a way of saying that in Isoko so that it rhymes and means exactly the same thing, I'm afraid the Isoko man will not be heard if he prays to Allah in another language - even if that language was given to him by the same 'Allah'.

Believe me, 'Allah' has made efrytin easy!

davidylan:
Another question . . . what happens to the "prophets" like Moses, David, Solomon e.t.c whom allah claimed to have sent before mohammed? How did they pray to allah? None of them knew anything called arabic so why did allah reveal his initial revelations in Greek, hebrew, aramaic e.t.c?
Why did allah suddenly, as soon as mohammed came on the scene, command that arabic be the language of prayer and study of the quran?

Indeed, David and the others did not speak a word of Arabic - not even close to Quraish! But wonder of wonders, even Muhammad admired his prayers so much (and 'Allah' didn't complain that it was not in Arabic!! ). Sample them:

Sahih Muslim, Book 006, Num. 2588:
. . . so observe the fast of David, the Apostle of Allah
(peace be upon him), for he was the best worshipper of Allah. .
(notice that David is also called "the Apostle of 'Allah")


Sahih Muslim, Book 006, Num. 2595:
'Abdullah b. 'Amr (Allah be pleased with both of them) reported
Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying:
With Allah the best fasting is that of David and
the best prayer is that of David (peace be upon him)


Sahih Muslim, Book 006, Num. 2596:
. .and the best prayer in the eye of Allah, the Exalted and Majestic,
is that of David (peace be upon him),


Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 2, Book 21, Num. 231:
Narrated Abdullah bin 'Amr bin Al-'As: Allah's Apostle told me,
"The most beloved prayer to Allah is that of David
and the most beloved fasts to Allah are those of David


Okay, now we must ask: this "best" and "most beloved" prayer of David - did he pray them in Arabic or Quraish? Did David even speak a word of Arabic before 'Allah' considered his prayer the BEST and MOST BELOVED?

davidylan:
What happens to Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael who spoke not a word of arabic? Did allah hear their prayers?

Did you not hear that 'Allah' has made efrytin easy for Muslims - even though they just bow down without thinking?

@olabowale,

Please endure me just this one. I know I said earlier that I would be away for a LOOOOOOONG break - it will come; just had a few hours to spend clearing my desk, so I thought to visit again.

olabowale:
You lie through the teeth to create your brand of Jesus. That is a fake Jesus and you know it. And that Jesus is different and apart from Muslim's Jesus. Muslims Jesus was a noble prophet, who respected his mother, and defended her.

. . . And I know better! Muhammad, by the Qur'an that was revealed on him and his Sunnah and Hadith that he explained the verses by, is enough for me to follow and his instructions are just what I need for my cradle to grave guidance.

I have a few observations, though:

This idea of a "Muslim Jesus" does not make any sense - not even when one has to examine issues with a sane conscience from Islamic sources. Muhammad never spoke of ANOTHER or a DIFFERENT Jesus - in his teaching, there was nothing like a "Muslim Jesus" as distinguished from a "Christian Jesus". If anything at all, the one who came over to borrow and plagiarize Biblical narratives was Muhammad - he came to pirate verses from the Bible, and not the other way round of Christians and Jews visiting the Qur'an to borrow anything for their faiths.

Second, the concept of a DIFFERENT or ANOTHER Jesus (Muslim Jesus) is a public disgrace and embarrassment to the Muslim ummah. If there is such a concept at all, WHY have you Muslims been debating Christians and cursing Jews if you have a different "Muslim Jesus" and not rather leave them peacefully to their own Jewish and Christian Jesus? WHY have Muslims been trying to wage an eternal war with Christians and Jews over a non-existent "Muslim Jesus"?

Third, you know as well that the Muslim Jesus theory would entail that every single reference to Biblical figures in the Qur'an will also have to be DIFFERENT and UNBIBLICAL. It would mean that you are speaking of:

~ a Muslim MARY, and

~ a Muslim Abraham, and

~ a Muslim John the Baptist

~ a Muslim Moses, etc -

. . .all without reference to the Bible!

Fourth, the whole theory of a Muslim Jesus is a farce - and you know it. You may run behind that excuse as best suits your pride and ego, because you have met the end of the cave after the fraud in the Qur'an has been exposed. Muhammad's claims of being in the same ranks as the Biblical prophets therefore has been rubbished by your theory of a Muslim Jesus, because you do not realize that it further highlights the FACT that Muhammad had nothing to do with the Bible. This would mean that whoever Muhammad addressed as 'Allah' must have had it so confused as to make references to the Bible where Muslims like you are now coming out to say NO, it is not the Jesus in the Bible and Muhammad is not in the Bible! So, was 'Allah' misleading you guys, or are your arguments superior to his? (I do not want to say here that 'Allah' LIED to you - the last time I did, it cost me my friendship with a long-time Muslim friend).

But if that so-called Muslim Jesus is examined closely, one finds that your theory does not hold - and we would have to be amazed by what Muhammad said about that same "MUSLIM JESUS". Have you closely examined the FACTS - and are you happy with the same descriptions of your Muslim Jesus in the Sunnah and Hadiths?

In the Sunnah and Hadiths, Muhammad described your "Muslim Jesus" as a man who couldn't even trust himself and goes about making false allegations.

Before your blood boils over, please carefully examine the FACTS for yourself from the same Sunnah and Hadiths that you pride your conscience upon:

~ That the "Muslim Jesus" could not trust himself:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Num. 653:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Jesus, seeing a man stealing,
asked him, 'Did you steal?, He said, 'No, by Allah, except Whom there is
None who has the right to be worshipped'
Jesus said, 'I believe in Allah and suspect my eyes." duh!https://imageofmuhammad.com/en/components/com_akocomment/images/sm_rolleyes.gif

I do not want to offend people unnecessarily. But if I come back anyday and see your rascal denials of the FACTS, I will rapidly post a dozen verses from the same Sunnah and Hadiths to show what Muhammad thought of the "Muslim Jesus".

nwando:
This is the year you answer Yes Lord to Christ.
This year will not pass you by.

Yes O! Hallelujah!

@toluxa1,

toluxa1:
In the book of Jer. I can't remember the chap and verse. It says something like in the end the LORD will be on the mount of olives which will be split on two and a valley shall be between. We have to check EVERYTHING the bible has to say on a subject to come to Truth.

Please use a concordance to find the part Jeremiah I am talking about.

It is true that we have to check everything the Bible has to say on a subject - but I presume that should rather be that we check everything we have retained and let the Bible speak for itself.

I do not know everything in the Bible; but I can trust God to bring us to know HIM as much as He has revealed in His WORD.

I suppose the verse you're looking for is not in Jeremiah (please correct me if I'm wrong) - but it is rather in Zechariah:

Zechariah 14:4

And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,
which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives
shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward
the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of
the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it
toward the south.


God bless.

@Xvalier,

Lol. . . please be patient with him. I know am guilty many times of being strong and passionate in my expressions with people I do not agree with; but I think that toluxa1 is inviting us to consider his postulations for a discussion. Before I became a Christian, I had no clue about what the Bible taught - I read mainly the Qur'an and knew it by heart (though today, I am simply forgetting so many of its verses and have come to know the Bible by heart).

Perhaps, toluxa1 will get there someday and be strong in the Faith of our Lord Jesus Christ. Let's help him achieve that as best we could.

Many blessings.

I wonder whatever the matter was that pilgrim.1 has become a reference point in some people's subconsciousness.