₦airaland Forum

Rilwayne001:
Mr. man. Please, tell me the major reason why you had to mention my moniker.

Please, I'm waiting.

I thought you had 'disappeared'. I didn't know you're still around.

It appears Confirmer is about to put up the disappearing act and pass the baton to another in their group like the ones before him did - empiree, tartar9, mustymatic, rilwayne001, and the rest of them.

Which Son Did God Ask Abraham To Sacrifice?

Muslim leaders have led their followers into believing things not stated in the Quran. They ignore the Quran and establish their own doctrine. They even go as far as hold on to positions that are even contrary to the Quran.

For example, which son was the promised covenant child to Abraham in his old age; was it Ishmael or Isaac? The Quran points to Isaac – Sura 11: 69-73; 15: 51-53. The Islamic leaders have led their people to believe it was Ishmael. One of them must be wrong. Both of them cannot be correct.

Again, in testing him, which son did God ask Abraham to sacrifice to Him?

In Sura 11: 69-73 we are specifically told the name of the son that Abraham was to get in his old age – Isaac. It was this promised son that Abraham was later tested with to be sacrificed. So when Abraham made the statement in Sura 37: 101-109 it was the ‘righteous son’ that God promised him as per Sura 11: 69-73 – Isaac – that was to be sacrificed.

For some strange inexplicable reasons, perhaps to seek to maintain their closeness to Abraham, many Arab Muslim leaders chose to replace Isaac with their ancestor Ishmael even though his name was never mentioned in relation to being the promised son. They have subsequently led the entire Muslim world to believe that it was Ishmael that was both the promised son and the one to be sacrificed when it was actually Isaac.

Isaac was conceived MIRACULOUSLY to Sarah who had well passed her child bearing age and a very aged Abraham. The Quran agrees with this.

Ishmael on the other hand was conceived NORMALLY without any miraculous intervention.

If any of these conceptions is to be seen as UNIQUE obviously the common sense reasoning will pick that of Isaac, not Ishmael.

Tradition must not be made to supersede God’s revelation.

Ishmael was never the ‘promised’ child.

Through the lineage of Isaac the true sacrificial lamb – Jesus – later came into the world.

“The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29).
“The next day John was there again with two of his disciples. When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, “Look, the Lamb of God!” (John 1: 35-36).

“For God so loved the world that he gave his ONE AND ONLY SON, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16).

Confirmer:
Please kindly give me an explicit verse in the bible where God didn't recognise Ishmael as Abraham's son or where God didn't sanction Abraham union with Hagar. In Genesis 16:15 Ishmael was explicit recognised as Abraham's son "And Hagar bare Abram a SON:and Abram called his SON's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael".
Kindly stay on the bible where you have some knowledge because Ismael is well recognised in the Quran along with Isiaq. We make no distinction between the prophets of Allah.

Confirmer you seem to want to obscure things. It looks like a common tactic of muslims on NL.

If you use either the Bible record which predates the Quran or that of the Quran itself it is clear that the person emphasized as the promised son is Isaac.

Like I stated:
Isaac was conceived MIRACULOUSLY to Sarah who had well passed her child bearing age and a very aged Abraham. The Quran agrees with this.

Ishmael on the other hand was conceived NORMALLY without any miraculous intervention.

If any of these conceptions is to be seen as UNIQUE obviously the common sense reasoning will pick that of Isaac, not Ishmael. The child of promise had to be the one who came MIRACULOUSLY.

Btw, Ishmael eventually left Abraham and Isaac remained. Does this indicate something?

What Scholar8200 said in his post is also very instructive – in the Bible, references to Hagar CLEARLY shows that her relationship to Abraham was not regarded on the same level as that of Sarah his recognized wife. The same applies to her (Hagar’s) son. This rules out your using the Bible to justify your position. The next option – the Quran – is your best port of call. Unfortunately here too all indications point to Isaac rather than Ishmael as the promised son.

Confirmer:
All these circumstantial evidence you are trying to conjure shouldn't supersede a crystal clear evidence that Ishmael is Abraham first child and should have the status of THINE ONLY CHILD. The test was if he would be willing to sacrifice his only son. The test would be defeated if he had another son somewhere. Mind you God wasn't testing Sarah but Abraham so don't involve her. I seriously don't know how you put up your defence to this explicit fact.

Here’s a small part of a thread I will soon post:

Isaac was conceived MIRACULOUSLY to Sarah who had well passed her child bearing age and a very aged Abraham. The Quran agrees with this.

Ishmael on the other hand was conceived NORMALLY without any miraculous intervention.

If any of these conceptions is to be seen as UNIQUE obviously the common sense reasoning will pick that of Isaac, not Ishmael. The child of promise had to be the one who came MIRACULOUSLY.

Btw, Ishmael eventually left Abraham and Isaac remained. Does this indicate something?

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Confirmer:
1 Quran 2:285
Sahih International: The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."
2. “The ummah (Muslim nation) is agreed that the Messengers are infallible in carrying out their mission – they do not forget anything that Allaah has revealed to them except with regard to matters that have been abrogated. They are also infallible in conveying the Message – they do not conceal anything that Allaah has revealed to them, for that would be a betrayal and it is impossible to imagine that they could do such a thing. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): ‘O Messenger! Proclaim (the Message) which has been sent down to you from your Lord. And if you do not ,then you have not conveyed His Message…’ [al-Maa’idah 5:67]. If anything is concealed or changed, then the punishment of Allaah will befall the one who is guilty of doing these things, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): ‘And if he [Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)] had forged a false saying concerning Us [Allaah], We surely would have seized him by his right hand (or with power and might), and then certainly should have cut off his life artery (aorta).’ [al-Haqqah 69:44-46]. One aspect of infallibility is that they (the Prophets) do not forget anything of that which Allaah has revealed to them, and thus no part of the revelation is lost.”
“The Prophets and Messengers may also strive to find the right judgement in the situations with which they are faced, and they judge according to what they themselves see and hear – they do not have knowledge of the Unseen. They may make an incorrect judgement, as happened to the Prophet of Allaah Dawood (David), who failed to do so, and Allaah helped his son Sulaymaan (Solomon) to come up with the right answer in that particular case. Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) reported that he heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: ‘There were two women, each of whom had a son. A wolf came and carried off the son of one of them, who said to the other, “The wolf has taken your son.” The other said, “No, he took your son.” They came to Dawood to ask him to judge between them, and he ruled in favour of the older woman. Then they went to Sulaymaan the son of Dawood and told him what had happened. He said, “Bring a knife and divide the child between them.” The younger woman said, “Do not do that, may Allaah have mercy on you! He is her son.” So Sulaymaan ruled in favour of the younger woman.’ (Reported by al-Bukhaari).[/size]

For my first question I didn’t ask for what the Quran says; what I asked was what you Muslims actually DO IN PRACTICE. Do you hold Mohammed in higher esteem than other prophets? In practice, not by words or quoting any statement. When you said “We don't make distinction between the Prophets and we believe in all of them” are you sincerely saying that the average Muslim will kill for Jesus as they would for Mohammed? Maybe you need to look what ‘DISTINCTION’ means. Do you in practice actually make NO DISTICTION?

For the second question I wanted you to quote anywhere in the Quran to support your position but you have not. Instead you are quoting some other people. I’m not asking for what the ummah is agreed about. I’m not talking about proclamation of message. What I am saying is tell me where the Quran supports you statement that “All the prophets of God are sinless.” Can you show how all the prophets lived their without sinning; that's what sinless means.

Confirmer:
Do you know believe the Quran is from God or you are only cherry picking on a few verses that suit you? We don't make distinction between the Prophets and we believe in all of them. Adam was Fashioned by God the Almighty Himself and that doesn't make the best. Noah preached for 950 years and that doesn't make him the best. Jonah survived the belly of the whale and that doesn't make him the best. Moses spoke with God directly and that doesn't make him the best. Jesus woke the dead (by God's permission) and that doesn't make him the best. Solomon controlled the whole species (human, jinn, birds etc) and doesn't make him the best. All the prophets of God are sinless. All the other prophets were sent to either their family, community, race, or country but only Muhammed was sent to not only humans but to the entire living and not living things.

1. At the first bolded; can you honestly claim that this is true or are you trying to deceive us? If it is true prove it.
2. At the second bolded; can you really show us this from your Quran so we can know who is stating the truth and who is presenting falsehood.

Confirmer:
You guys are simply pathetic. On whose tongue was the Quran revealed that Jesus was given the astonishing reference? It was this same Prophet Muhammed (Peace and Blessing of Allah be on him) that it was revealed to about the Status of Jesus and that Mary. Prophet Muhammed Mother was not even mentioned once in the Quran and Mary has a Chapter in the holy Quran. Is it too hard for you to reason?

 If a prophet talks about ONE that is greater than himself should that prophet be held in higher esteem than the ONE to whom he points? 

Is the messenger greater than the one who sent him?

Mohammed revealed the status of Jesus. That status is clearly that of a person who is presented as UNEQUALED and EXTRAORDINARY. Not even Mohammed matched him as SINLESS, as THE MESSIAH, and as one that is still ALIVE today in royal magnificence, waiting for His second coming!

You don't deny any of these FACTS, do you?

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malvisguy212:
the Jews reject Jesus because they thought the messiah will fight war for them and win, All the kings in the bible fight war and they are expecting Jesus to carry on with this tradition of fighting battle and winning. But Jesus came to call his sheep. But here what the quran say:

Surah 4:157: And their saying:
Surely we have killed the Messiah,
Isa son of Marium, the messenger
of Allah; and they did not kill him
nor did they crucify him, but it
appeared to them so (like Isa) and
most surely those who differ therein
are only in a doubt about it; they
have no knowledge respecting it, but
only follow a conjecture, and they
killed him not for sure. (Shakir)

Does this make sense to you?If you read this account in its entirety from Surah 4:153 to Surah 4:162, you will understand who they are that are saying, “Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah.” According to the
Qur’an, it is the Jews saying this. Think!
Would the hostile Jews call Jesus the
“Messiah” when they have rejected him
as the Messiah? It must be remembered
that the Jewish religious leaders even
objected when Pilate wrote a title saying, “King of the Jews.” (John 19:19-22). It is, therefore, illogical for the Jews to boastfully say that “we have killed the Messiah” when they did not accept Jesus as the Messiah in the first place. And if they did recognize him as the Messiah – as this verse implies – would they have killed him?

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You're spot-on Malvisguy!

Jagoon:
Abi oh! Unlike mohamed who was a serial rapist, murderer, extortionist and arrmed robber. Who ever accepts mohamed as a prophet really needs to get his/her head examined.

It's astonishing but perhaps the best word is 'shocking' that many of them venerate normal, ordinary, commonplace, run-of-the-mill individual whereas one who is presented as unequaled and peculiar is hardly given attention, recognition and reverential respect.

Demmzy15:
No need for all this stories, every Prophet mentioned in the Quran are given special status. Just show me a single verse from the Quran that says we should turn to Jesus for Salvation or that Jesus is god(!?)

*continues drinking pap and akara*

They may be given special status. But as you can see from here NONE of them equals Jesus in these UNIQUE attributes. Therefore he stands head and shoulders above them all. 

Give honor to whom honor is due. The least anyone should do is to acknowledge that Jesus is EXTRAORDINARY from all these that we have seen. 
Is he not?

hadassah007:
Whao!!

Yes! Anyone reading the Quran and seeing these unique FACTS about Jesus is without excuse on the last day if he fails to seek to inquire more about this OUTSTANDING personality of the universe and believe in him for salvation.

malvisguy212:
you qoute all the op and when I was scrolling down, I was hoping you make a concrete defence, but NO, you only called him liar without telling us the lies in the op.

When people like Mustymatic have nothing to say but want to appear relevant they do anything.
He knows he can give no argument against clear issues.
He's looking to create some 'distractions' to shift focus away from the real issue of having to
give answer to the Lord of the universe.

The Uniqueness Of Jesus In The Quran

The Quran records 3 things about Jesus which combine to make unparalled uniqueness of Jesus. These are:
1. Jesus birth was unique and supernatural:
Sura 3: 45-47
Sahih Int'l
“[And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah ].

He will speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity and will be of the righteous."

She said, "My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?" [The angel] said, "Such is Allah ; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is.”


2. Jesus performed unusual miracles, signs and wonders:
Sura 3:49; 5: 110
“And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah . And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah . And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers.”
“[The Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and [remember] when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, "This is not but obvious magic."


3. Jesus ascended to heaven, so the end of his life was unique and supernatural:
Sura 3:55
“[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.”

His body defied the curse of dust-to-dust that every other humanity is faced with; the curse to return to dust from which man was created.

The Only One!
These three (3) things – his unique supernatural birth, his unique supernatural life, and the unique and supernatural end to his life on earth make him the ONLY PERSON who ever lived and had all these unparalled qualities in these three areas COMBINED.

No other single person in history has all three together in his life. No other person combines all three attributes in one person.

These FACTS therefore make Jesus the MOST UNIQUE and SUPERNATURAL PERSON who ever lived because he is the ONLY ONE that has combined ALL these three attributes put together.

What The Facts Demands
These FACTS should make anyone regard Jesus as ONE who stands out from the crowd. These FACTS should make anyone see Jesus as ONE who stands head and shoulders above every other person. In short, no one compares to him; there’s no competition!

Knowing these facts demands a response to the significance of such a unique life. Was it simply for NOTHING that God chose to have all those things in Jesus? An honest observer will certainly answer that it could not have been for nothing. Therefore if it was not for nothing that God caused all these unique attributes to be in ONE PERSON, anyone knowing these facts should give serious attention to them. This calls for truthful reflection.

Other additional facts are these:
- He is mentioned more times than any other prophet in the Quran!
- He is the ONLY sinless man in the Quran! Sura 19:19
Adam sinned (Sura 2:36; 7:22-23). Abraham sinned (Sura 26: 82). Moses sinned (Sura 38:24-25). David sinned (Sura 38:24-25). Jonah sinned (Sura 37:142). Mohammed sinned (Sura 33:36-38; 47:19; 48:1-2).

Jesus was taken up to heaven, body, soul and spirit, and is still alive today in royal magnificence, waiting for His second coming!
Certainly this kind of a person is nothing less than the celebrity of the universe! He should therefore be accorded the highest of place that he deserves.

The Way
This Jesus is the Messiah; the Saviour. “God so loved the world that he sent his [b]UNIQUELY BORN son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life”[/b] Jn 3:16

God showcased all these unique attributes through Jesus to make CLEAR to all mankind the way of salvation. He said: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” Jn. 14:6

What You Need To Do
“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved” Acts 16:31

Jesus died on the cross, for the forgiveness of our sins, and rose from the grave, conquering death. He has no grave where anyone can worship at his dead bones. And by faith in his name anyone receives forgiveness of sins. It is because Jesus is human yet above humanity that he qualified to be the saviour of the world!

Through him who never died but is right now at the right hand of God in heaven, belief in him as saviour guarantees a person a place with God in eternity.

“These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name” Jn. 20:31

crusadistic:
what contradiction,why didn't they also burn this one then moo.

This is the truth as to why:
Originally various texts of Mohammed's recitations emerged leading to different sects.
As this situation could weaken the religion, powerful leaders of Islam decided to have only one rendition. When the leaders came out with one version, they sort for, collected and destroyed as many variants as they could find. They then pronounced their assembled version as the authentic Quran.  

Of course after this many untouched ones still surfaced giving rise to the sharp divisions that still exists in Islam today.

CryptDarpick:
I brought the last verse so you can interpret using your logic and see what youll have!

Again that verse is quite obvious, anyone familiar with the quran or its teachings arrives at that simple conclusion. Progeny prophethood book! Its quite simple from where im standing!

I trust that I have been able, with those few words of mine, to give you beyond reasonable doubt, a clearer understanding of that portion of your Quran. 

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CryptDarpick:
Some people prefer to ignore your blind persistence.


Useless to our discussion.


Useless to our discussion.


What error? What discrepancy? First of all if taqiya is what you speak of taqiya is a Shia word. Secondly istidrar is a principle that allows one to renounce God outwardly when he fears for his life I.e compelled. Using lies to turn someone into your faith is actually what Paul did, nothing like that in Islam.



That's because Muhsin khan likes to interpret verses in his translations.


You do know there's a difference between translation and interpretation right? You should read the footnote comment by the writers. Where progeny and prophet hood is involved obviously based on our understanding of the Quran we know Ishmael is involved.


. 
Is there any muslim who interprets it differently? The book means the book of law, there's only one valid one in the eyes of God at a time, like the Torah during the time of Moses was the book or scripture (I don't think this has a plural) and now the Quran is the book.


Refer to the explanation above. The three books weren't sent at once, each sent at the time where it's the only valid law. Like the Torah was the book during Moses time and now the Quran is the book.


Why does he need to be specifically mentioned when what was implied to every muslim reader is quite obvious?



Joke?


[b
Lol! Really? Do you really believe that?

Okay, interpret this verse for me using your logic.

Noble Verse 35:24 "Verily We (Allah) have sent thee in truth, as a bearer of glad tiding, and as a warner: and there never was a people, without a warner having lived among them (in the past).

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I believe that those reading this thread with objectivity and a little common sense will understand the issue before us better. 
 
Let me take you up on this: What is 'blind persistence'?

Apparently you would prefer me to say you're right even when it is clear that your arguments are lopsided. 

The Quran states that it is CLEAR for all to understand. So where is your own "understanding" from? Is it the understanding that wants to tell people that you can 'fix' the name of Ishmael into a portion of the Quran where it does not appear? That to me is not understanding: It is being mischievous. 

Anyone who in the name of interpretation ignores the immediate context and then interpolated a matter, or in case the name of Ishmael, is not interpreting. Such a person is being dubious.  

An "understanding" that disregards the directly stated progeny of Abraham in a verse, refuses to attach prophethood to that lineage and then decides to put the tags on another person not stated in that verse is, to say the least, a warped understanding. 

If you claim that

"Why does he need to be specifically mentioned when what was implied to every muslim reader is quite obvious?"

you have not shown us clearly what should make a 'Muslim reader' IMPLY something from a verse that is not there but still turns out to be "quite obvious". If something is 'quite obvious' should it be implied?

Another truth is this: the Quran to a large extent cannot be understood without all these additions to verses here and there. As result many Muslims are unable, on their own, to understand the Quran. They then have to rely on their imams for interpretations and have to accept whatever is presented. Maybe you swallowed that kind of bait here. 

So another question for you guys is this: If the Quran puts out itself to be clear to all, how come it still requires all these additions and interpolations and 'implied' words for it to be understood?

Your last quote is: 
Useless to our discussion.
You are yet to fully understand one verse and now bringing in another. Understand one first before another. 

You have simply not succeeded in showing that Mohammed is in the Bible because you need to IMPLY it for him to be there. You have also not been able to prove that Ishmael is in the verse we have been looking at because it takes your kind of 'understanding' to get it; that's why you stated that "Where progeny and prophet hood is involved obviously based on our understanding of the Quran we know Ishmael is involved."

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CryptDarpick:
Lol! Please, go and find Muhsin khans translation of the verse for me. Since you said I added those. May Allah strike me if I did.


Let me bring ever recognized translation.

Sahih International
And We gave to Him Isaac and Jacob and placed in his descendants prophethood and scripture. And We gave him his reward in this world, and indeed, he is in the Hereafter among the righteous.
Muhsin Khan
And We bestowed on him [Ibrahim (Abraham)], Ishaque (Isaac) and Ya'qub (Jacob), and ordained among his offspring Prophethood and the Book [i.e. the Taurat (Torah) (to Musa - Moses), the Injeel (Gospel) (to 'Iesa - Jesus), the Quran (to Muhammad SAW), all from the offspring of Ibrahim (Abraham)], and We granted him his reward in this world, and verily, in the Hereafter he is indeed among the righteous.
Pickthall
And We bestowed on him Isaac and Jacob, and We established the prophethood and the Scripture among his seed, and We gave him his reward in the world, and lo! in the Hereafter he verily is among the righteous.
Yusuf Ali
And We gave (Abraham) Isaac and Jacob, and ordained among his progeny Prophethood and Revelation, and We granted him his reward in this life; and he was in the Hereafter (of the company) of the Righteous.
Shakir
And We granted him Ishaq and Yaqoub, and caused the t prophethood and the book to remain in his seed, and We gave him his reward in this world, and in the hereafter he will most surely be among the good.
Dr. Ghali
And We bestowed upon him Ishaq (Isaac) and Yaaqub (Jacob) and made the prophethood and the Book among his offspring. And We brought him his reward in the present (life), (Literally: the lowly "life", i.e., the life of this world) and surely in the Hereafter he will be indeed among the righteous.



It's simple, really. We did not single out only Ishmael, we added the progeny of Isaac as well did we not? Why not add his other children? Is any of his other children a prophet in Islam? Is there a prophet or book from any of their children? Lol! Your persistence here is childish.

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I dare say again that you guys are being MISCHIEVOUS. You are also the ones being CHILDISH. 

I have since noticed that the original OP has "STOPPED" responding. Is it coincidence or by design? Are you guys passing the baton from one person to the other or is it one person in different shades?

I have also noticed that what you guys always want to do is 
1. Start with a seemingly harmless topic to Christianity. 
2. Then look for how to turn it against Christianity. 
3. When you make a statement about Islam or the Quran and a person replies you pointing out discrepancies or error the very next thing you do is point at the Bible or Christianity to claim the same RATHER than clarify (if it were possible) the shortcomings and variance in your Quran and religion. 

Look at the verse we are on and from it it is clear from ALL the translations you put up that: 
1. It is ONLY Muhsin Khan that ADDED  [i.e. the Taurat (Torah) (to Musa - Moses), the Injeel (Gospel) (to 'Iesa - Jesus), the Quran (to Muhammad SAW), to his translation. 
2. It is equally clear that the name ISHMAEL is NOT mentioned there in that verse in ALL the translations. 
3. Therefore what Muhsin Khan did was to try to add his own understanding of "the book". 
4. Like I pointed out instead of one 'book' he has listed three(3) books. But the verse said "the book" or "the scripture" or "the revelation". Anyone with a little commonsense can immediately see that there is a problem with those additions. 
5. Also since Ismael's name was not specifically mentioned in that verse it is not only CHILDISH but outrightly DUBIOUS to try to bring it in in any explanation of that verse so as to link it to Mohammed. If you must use PROGENY of Abraham to include Ishmael, who was not specifically mentioned here, then you must ADD all of Abraham's PROGENY and not just pick and choose as you like. 

To refuse what I've logically stated above is to choose to be childish rather than face up to this issue as a man. 

So, like I've said before; Mohammed DOES NOT EXIST in the Bible neither does this verse in your Quran prove any link to Ismael and by extension Mohammed. It simply is not there. 

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CryptDarpick:
And We bestowed on him [Ibrahim (Abraham)], Ishaque (Isaac) and Ya'qub (Jacob), and ordained among his offspring Prophethood and the Book [i.e. the Taurat (Torah) (to Musa - Moses), the Injeel (Gospel) (to 'Iesa - Jesus), the Quran (to Muhammad SAW), all from the offspring of Ibrahim (Abraham)], and We granted him his reward in this world, and verily, in the Hereafter he is indeed among the righteous.

1. If you read Muhsin Khans translation, you will see that were not singling out only Ishmael, the prophethood of the descendants of Isaac in jesus with injil and Moses with Torah were acknoledged as part of the prophethood and book the verse speaks of and also Muhammad being the descendant of another of Abrahams progeny and the holy Quran were acknoledged, so every prophet with a book that came from Abrahamas progeny be it Isaac or ISHMAEL were acknowledged, I think it's pretty clear no one is being singled out.

2. Abraham is the father of Isaac and Isaac the father of Jacob, just shows the line through isaacs side.

3. I reiterate, stop confusing yourself. Because you re stating your completely off target claims about this verse makes you look confused,

Difficult? Please, don't make me laugh.

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Now you are being mischievous. The words in red are your INSERTION. They are not originally there in the Quran. But to make the reader 'believe' he's reading what the Quran is saying you have inserted them there. The original wordings do not have them. 
Having said that, if we are to accept that what we have there is "the book" - singular- why are you now listing books? Obviously that should refer to ONLY one book! It says "the book" and not the books.  

One can immediately see what you Muslims do with the Quran; you insert words and phrases here and there to make whichever portion you want say what you want it to say. 

Meanwhile, if you are not singling out anyone then tell me this: what about the others children of Abraham by his other wives; what of their prophethood and books? If you include Ishmael in the progeny of Abraham what about his other children? Why have you excluded them? 

If we are to take Abraham's progeny to mean more than those listed in that verse then we should add ALL of them shouldn't we? Or on what authority do you think you should add Ishmael and not add others?

Make things as simple as possible then maybe there will be no confusion. Until then maybe you're really still confused about the whole thing.

You still have not answered my questions.

CryptDarpick:
I think Muhsin khans translation explains this better

Muhsin Khan
And We bestowed on him [Ibrahim (Abraham)], Ishaque (Isaac) and Ya'qub (Jacob), and ordained among his offspring Prophethood and the Book [i.e. the Taurat (Torah) (to Musa - Moses), the Injeel (Gospel) (to 'Iesa - Jesus), the Quran (to Muhammad SAW), all from the offspring of Ibrahim (Abraham)], and We granted him his reward in this world, and verily, in the Hereafter he is indeed among the righteous.

I don't see any contradiction, the verse speaks of Abrahams bloodline through And speaks of his offspring/progeny which also includes Ishmael., please Stop confusing yourself.

1. Where in this translation do we find offspring/progeny including only Ishmael and not the rest of Abraham’s offspring from his other wives? Please show me clearly. Since Abraham had other wives and children how do they 'fit' into your 'interpretation'? Why are you singling out only Ishmael and leaving the rest of Abraham’s offspring?

2. How come that portion of the Quran specifically mentioned Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in that sequence and Ishmael’s name is not mentioned?

3. Are you sure you are not the one confusing yourself? I am certainly not puzzled in any way.

If these my questions are not too difficult for you please simply answer them one by one but if too difficult just admit.

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CryptDarpick:
Lol! No it doesn't. Let's look at the verse shall we?

Verse 29:27 "And We gave (Abraham) Isaac and Jacob, and ordained among his progeny Prophethood and Revelation, and We granted him his reward in this life; and he was in the Hereafter (of the company) of the Righteous."

Isaac was Abraham's son and Jacob his grandson, and among his progeny was included Ishmail the eldest son of Abraham. Each of these became a fountainhead of Prophecy and Revelation. Isaac and Jaacob through Moses, and Ishmail through Muhammad. I have never denied or refuted Isaac or Jacobs prophethood, ISHMAEL, the rightful person that was almost sacrificed. Lol! It's quite simple really, infact, I'll let the Quran defend itself.

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You guys never cease to come up with amazing manipulations of your own book.  

In your 'effort' to make the Quran say what you want, you interpret it however you want. 

Look at that Sura and verse again and answer these: 
1. Does Abraham, Isaac and Jacob listed in that order show any sequence?
2. Is Ishmael in that succession? 
3. How come Ishmael's name is not directly mentioned?
4. If you want to use the word 'progeny' to support the possibility of Ishmael being included then why not include other children of Abraham? Maybe you guys have forgotten that Abraham had other wives and children or you have conveniently ignored it since it wouldn't 'fit' into your 'interpretation'. 

If you want Quran to defend itself like you said then you cannot bring in Ishmael because that verse NEVER mentioned Ishmael. Your bringing his name in and claiming you want to use Quran to defend itself is actually a mischievous injection which you guys do all the time. 

That verse clearly spells out the direct line of prophethood and Ishmael is not there and by extension Mohammed is not either.

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ScreledrusMortm:
Okay.

Then I gave this....why did you even remove the others? Lol! Anyways....is there any one that fulfills all these conditions and claims to be in the bible?

Indeed I did.

The multiple points I gave + the fact he told of his prophesy and of course the fact that he introduced true monotheism is just too much to be a coincidence, and please if you have some one who fits into this description as the prophet like Moses, please who is he?

In all these you all ignored the issue of PROPHETHOOD. That should be the focus. 

The fact that he Muhammad the illiterate (here I say unlettered) prophet brought law, justice and love to a bunch of hateful pagans and the world as a whole. In fact he was listed as the most influential man ever!

The fact is that is what you keep telling yourself, but do you even truly believe it? You can always go back to worshipping a pagan/invented god called Jesus Christ for Jesus of Nazareth will surely be a witness against you in the day of judgement, he will say that he did not teach any thing more than what God wanted him to, and you who follow Paul and his fallacies will have no way of denying, after all it's too obvious. And after all where did Jesus ever say I am God, worship me? The only verse that comes close to that is a verse that was added out of desperation to conceal the truth because it's too obvious. It's good that it was removed later, but what else was added? You know in most times there are corruptors, Like the introduction of the golden calf by samiri, Paul, and Abdullah Ibn Saba. But back to my previous question, where did Jesus ever say I am God worship me?

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Unfortunately the 'unlettered prophet' has ended up leaving behind a bundle of contradictions.

Back to our matter:
To imply as a possibility that Mohammed is the “prophet” predicted in Deuteronomy 18 contradicts the Qur’an, which clearly said that the “Prophethood and Scripture (Revelation)” was to come through the “descendants” of Isaac and Jacob — not Ishmael (Sura 29:27).
"And We gave to Him Isaac and Jacob and placed in his descendants prophethood and scripture. And We gave him his reward in this world, and indeed, he is in the Hereafter among the righteous."

Rilwayne001:
Address your tags, remove whats blocking to see the poo you believed as the word of GOD

Is anything eating you up?

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ScreledrusMortm:
Lol! Looks who's talking.

Lol! Then I acknowledged to you that Moses indeed had a unique gift. But it doesn't suit your point here, the question we've been asking is who is the prophet similar to Moses, or are you saying Moses is greater than Jesus as well? Because which ever point you make has to be a similarity that both jesus and Moses share and so far you have none, so who's going around in circles here? Lol, your jokes are quite refreshing though. You see part of your naivety is how you see your god in a presidents light or a mans light which is honestly quite funny. So yes, no similarity between Kallimullah and Muhammad, nor is there between he and Jesus in this regard.

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Obviously you like to amuse yourself. That's good. But that should not make you misplace the seriousness of the matter. 

Look at the title of the thread: 
"Its Obvious That Mohammed Exists In Bible"

From that title the OP and the rest of you are trying lamely to prove that the 'Prophet' whom Moses predicted will come after him is Mohammed. You then went on to use so called 'similarities' that can fit between Moses and a thousand people to justify your pitiable position. 

This was when you started your list with:

Now the similarities between Muhammad and Moses, simple.

Both Muhammad and Moses had a genetic natural birth, ie they both had two parents, Jesus did not.

And after the list you said:

"Is there any doubt that indeed Muhammad is the prophet like Moses this verse speaks of?"

For goodness sake don't millions of people have natural birth and both parents? How does that and the other listed points then become UNIQUENESS that will make you come to the conclusion you arrived at?

In all these you all ignored the issue of PROPHETHOOD. That should be the focus. 

In his office as a 'prophet' what would make you say that Mohammed qualified as the person Moses spoke about? What did he do AS A PROPHET that qualifies him to fit that position? Like I said earlier, there is NOTHING. 

The plain truth is this: Mohammed Does Not Exist In The Bible. 

ScreledrusMortm:
Lol! So? We muslims are aware and acknowledge that Moses spoke to God. Moses is given the title Kalimullah (Arabic: كليم الله, translit.: Kalīmullāh, Meaning: The one who talked to Allah) in Islam. But then, did Jesus ever talk to God? Remember your argument here is that Jesus is the prophet like Moses, so whatever you refute must agree with your claims.

Stop going round in circles!!

Your question was:

'In what way is Muhammad not similar to Moses?'

And I showed you clearly one major way but instead of admitting that AS PROPHET Moses was in a greater class than Mohammed you are now bringing in Jesus. 

Leave Jesus out for now. Face your own question. If you don't focus on one issue at a time how can you get it? I have NOT even mentioned Jesus yet in my response to you on this issue; if I do you'll be lost. So leave him out for now. 

Do you see the fallacy here of Muslims equating Mohammed with Moses? They don't even come close. From your own admission even your Quran acknowledges that he spoke with God. And Mohammed NEVER spoke with God. 

Can you equate someone who speaks directly with a President and one who hears about him from third parties or reads about him in the newspaper? Not to talk of a person having a direct access to God?

Use simple logic my friend and you will see your error. And this only just one way I've pointed out. 

So I say again that there is no similarity in this regard between Moses as a PROPHET and Mohammed. None. Yes or no?

Ovacoma:
you just took the bait without considering what it is! So this is the way you have been takin a verse from the Bible and say it is muhammed it refers to. This reminds me of hot debate by some Muslims while they were quoting Jesus saying 'the prince of this world cometh' as prophecy of muhammed. Not knowing that the prince of this world is d devil. Later, they all went into shameful silence, when (i guess) they understood. They are not interested in the study of the Bible, just a verse and they begin to yell out muhammed as this one just did. He even say 'two prophets'. Anyway, u need to go back and read the chapters where the verses i quoted come from, may be you can get senses before talking. Imagine a sane man reads john 1:45; Acts 3: 22, and Acts 7: 37, and the next word is muhammed. Read all the chapters, the previous and the next, if necessary, to know who is speaking, to whom , and about who. Somebody just dashed the all the hopes of those who claim Deuteronomy 18:18 refers to someone outside Israel as they interprete 'among their brethren' as just any body, even an anti-jewish Arab prophet that came from God knows where. The verse reads 'I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren...' . Compare that verse with chapter 17:15 'Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee:..' my question now is, has Israel ever chosen/set an Arab, ishmaelite, or any one not from their tribe over them as king? You can still go ahead to continue the twisting/ wrest the scriptures as 2Peter 3: 16 says.
When will all these lies to put a bandit in the Bible as Prophet stop? REVELATION 22: 18 !!!
@plainbibletruth, i acknowledge you, thanks.

Thank you! I appreciate it.

ScreledrusMortm:
In what way is Muhammad not similar to Moses?

There you go again like most of your other Muslim guys. Instead of providing direct answer to a simple question you run away. You cannot get the truth that way; never.

Let me just start with one areas where Moses as a PROPHET was way above and far different from Mohammed:
As a PROPHET Moses heard DIRECTLY from God; Mohammed never did. Rather he claimed to be dealing with angels. So in this regard Mohammed cannot be said to be a prophet LIKE Moses. There's no similarity here. Moses was in a class here that Mohammed never came near not to talk of equalling.

ScreledrusMortm:
Did it say he will becoming from inside of Israel?

So in what SPECIAL way was Mohammed outstandingly similar to Moses in his Prophethood? Since that is the claim of Muslims – that another PROPHET like Moses will come.

Empiree:
plainbibletruth guy is fraud like his counterpart, ifeann. He's a manipulator like he did on previous pages

Muslims who ask serious questions about their religion are suspected of having apostatized. As a result, many of you out of fear of hostility and persecution stay away from directly answering any question on the Quran even when you are clear that the issues raised in it are not quite reasonable or logical.

If you are up to the challenge answer the questions raised about your Quran instead of always going back to the Bible to confuse issues. After all you claim the Bible is corrupted, so why not just ‘use’ your Quran to explain issues? Why go back to the Bible?

You all know how the Quran was pieced together but you want to run away from the truth and try to use what you think are wrong in the Bible to satisfy your consciences.

For once OPEN your eyes and ADMIT the contradictions in the Quran rather than deceive yourselves.

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ScreledrusMortm:
Still arguing about whether the Arabs and Jews are brothers? Lol! Again, the verse did not say amongst your people, or amongst you or amongst the Israelites, it says brethren.

Now the similarities between Muhammad and Moses, simple.

Both Muhammad and Moses had a genetic natural birth, ie they both had two parents, Jesus did not.

Both Muhammad and Moses grew up without both their parents, Jesus grew up with his mother.

Both Muhammad and Moses brought new laws, Jesus did not.

Both Muhammad and Moses married and had children, Jesus did not.

Both Muhammad and Moses fought wars, Jesus did not.

Both Muhammad and Moses died natural deaths, Jesus is not dead yet, nor did he die back then. Although he will return, live a natural life and then die as well.

Both Muhammad and Moses were accepted by their people, Jesus was not fully accepted by his people.

Both Muhammad and Moses are buried in the ground, Jesus is not.

Both Muhammad and Moses were victorious over their enemies, according to you Jesus was not.

Both Muhammad and Moses led their people to a secret mass exodus with the enemies in pursuit, Jesus did not.

Is there any doubt that indeed Muhammad is the prophet like Moses this verse speaks of?

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ScreledrusMortm:
Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

Lol! That's what you claim claim explains this? The verse says the one Moses wrote about in the law, I am not denying Moses wrote about Jesus, infact there are some prophecies I speak of above that speak of both Jesus and Muhammad. The Dead Sea scrolls also speak of two holy men, now, that doesn't mean this is the exact prophesy the commentators were talking about. It can be any of the other prophecies I mentioned. Now to prove that Muhammad is indeed who this verse speaks of, well that's easy, it says a prophet like Moses did it not?

Lol!


Muhammad is not irrelevant, Muhammad was sent to all of mankind unlike jesus who was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, there are Israeli muslims, if others choose to reject him that's their fault, if you read the bible you'll see the Jews are indeed rebellious people.


Most of the time when I quote the Old Testament you christians admit Jesus is not Moses and he wasn't like Moses, so you don't follow him you follow Christ. If Jesus was like Moses, why so many differences in their actions? Okay, let's play it like this, what does jesus have in common with Moses apart from the fact that they're both Jewish? Who is more similar to Moses, Jesus or Muhammad?

Muslim always try to find whatever differences they can between Moses and Jesus so as to make it appear that it was not Jesus who was prophesied here. On the other hand, like you have done, Muslims ‘create’ likenesses between Moses and Mohammed so as to claim that Mohammed is the one referred to.
But note the following;
1. Deuteronomy 17:15 states in a similar way what Deut. 18:18 states: It says “…appoint over you the king the LORD your God chooses. He must be from among your own brothers.” (or ‘…from among your own brethren’). Notice it says “your own brethren” or “your own brothers”. Now, will you claim then that the Israelites could choose a king from outside Israel? So in the same way how will the coming prophet referred to now be from outside Israel? What sense does that make?
2. You can find probably hundreds of men who can fit into all the points you listed. So in what SPECIAL way was Mohammed outstandingly similar to Moses in his Prophethood? Since that is the claim of Muslims – that another PROPHET like Moses will come.
3. God's covenant with Israel NEVER extended to Ishmael or his descendants.

Rilwayne001:
This has been addressed on page3 of this thread……

And was the conclusion that the Quran
- has no original version
- borrowed from the Bible, pre-Islamic writers, Jewish folktales and other books
- Is not 'pure Arabic'
- was actually put together years after Mohammed died

Rilwayne001:
Mr. Ignoramus. What is "interlingent"

[b]Did Mohammed Write The Quran?

Was it Mohammed who PERSONALLY wrote down what was 'revealed' to him? How did he compile the Quran or better still how was the Quran put together?

Muslims generally agree that Mohammed was not learned. So, did he miraculously get the gift of writing or what? Verifiable historical documents show that he made his recitation to others who then wrote them down.  No historical record show him as penning down the Quran. 

The implication of this is serious for scholarship. Can we be sure that those who wrote what was being told put down exactly what they heard? 

Eventually various texts emerged leading to different sects. As this situation could weaken the religion powerful leaders of Islam decided to have only one rendition. When the leaders came out with one version, they sort for, collected and destroyed as many variants as they could find. They then pronounced their assembled version as the authentic Quran. 

Shortly after this 'Authorized' version came out many objections came up to the effect that portion of known recitations by Mohammed himself were missing from this compilation. Even Mohammed's widow alleged that portions she knew existed when Mohammed was alive were missing from this new compilation. 

Another question then is 'How can we be sure that there aren't several other missing portions that were not included in this 'Authorized' version?