₦airaland Forum

TroGunn: The xmas traditions are in conflict because they are directly and unashamely copied from pagan religious worship- something God condemns. This cannot be whitewashed.

Zikkyy got a new plan to change everything about Christmas with his words.....big dream!!

Rich4god: I never wanted to comment again, but the response you guys (plap n truth) are given is realy hilarious. It gives me more reason why i should celebrate xmas... Am still at the sideline, watching. *Kant wait for 2013 xmas* peace.

Hahaha...you run leave ur answered questions.. Xmas na pagan feast. How wish he Roman Pope allow things to remain the way there were and how the Apostles left them. You for no even call any food Christmas food clothe or service ....SMH

Zikkyy: Your robotic approach to reading and interpretation will not take you anywhere. It is very clear from the above that the apostles concern or focus was against practices that will lead the Christian to sin or to un-Christ-like ways. If you keep interpreting to mean any man made tradition, then you have lost or totally disconnected from the message. Traditions are unavoidable because we live in an evolving world. You cannot tell me Africans don't have traditions not in the bible, and some am sure you have adopted. What is important is the implications or impact of these traditions on your Christian life. The bible is not a checklist and our everyday living is not based on a set of written rules (dos & don'ts). The Jews lived by written rules, and we see that they had to come up with their own rules (traditions of the elders) to fill gaps in the mosaic law. These rules are sometimes in conflict with the law.

To answer your question I can tell you my Xmas tradition is not in conflict with the commandments, it does not conflict with the traditions of the apostles.

Robotic? Hahaha....Now tell me, what is Christlike in Christmas? Does the Scripture supports it? This need a simple answer. Give the verse please!

@zikkyy: My position is that these stuff you mentioned were not there when Xmas was instituted. It came centuries later.

They were in use right from the original pagan feast. The log you see used to be the real log, today, its mordernised, you can buy Christmas cake in log form. The star etc....do more research on this. The winter activities are even older than the name Christmas. You can't change anything as far as Christmas is concern. Scripture foretold everything. Accept it or not. It stands. Christmas is a man tradition tagged with the name of Christ.

ignis: Sure, its scriptural, the scripure says in the book of 1 Corinthians 14:40 and I quote
'Let all things be done decently and in order'
Common sense will tell us what is descent and orderly.
And I believe that every human being with a good upbringing knows that crossing of leg in the public is highly undecent and unethical.
I stand to be corrected.

You cannot impose your traditions to others, if crossing of leg is indecent to Nigerians, this may not be indecent to the Japanese!

There are some things the Japanese may consider as indecent, that may not appear indecent to Nigerians. Why because, these are self traditions
They have no scriptural support.

You have to generalise ur argument on this issue, if you do, you will see that you do err!

ignis: Bro, we all know that the western culture is bastardized and highly indecent.
imagine this scenario, when you go to most official and social gathering in America, most of the ladies dress almost nude exposing their private parts. Thr religious gathering is not even an exception. The fact remains that what might be decent in their culture might not be decent in ours. Am not saying that we should incoporate culture into religion. The fact is we all have concience and know when we are doing what is right and what is wrong. Though often times, we tend to justify our wrong actions either by comparison or excuses. These does not make the wrong action right in anyway.
Heavenly race is a personal race and not a collective race, so let's not compare our actions with that of others.

This same corrupt Western people were the ones that brought Christianity to us.
Thier traditions you still observed till date yet you claim to be more decent than them...
Didn't the west initiated all the world feast you celebrate today? or can you find them in the Scripture?

I tell you, if the West had go against crossing of legs in the Church, this could have been world wide traditions, sadly, they did not.

You people will do better droping all sort of unscriptural traditions and focus on Christ only.

Matt 15 7-9 “Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

This was true of the religious leaders Jesus confronted and quoted the passage from Isa to.
This apply to us today. We can appear to draw near to God, all the while having our heart far from Him.
It is easy to want and be impressed by the image of "being" near to God without really doing it with our heart.

Oahray: crap! I knew you would come up with some silly explanation. In your prevoius post, you said

that was why I put up the pic. Instead of you to admit, you are twisting words. At least you just agreed that ethics is subjective.

Tell me, if comparison is wrong, why did you start it in the first place with the unguarded fallacy about ethics and common sense, by saying decent peeps do not cross their legs?
Over righteousness, that's the problem with many people, and blind fanaticism too.

You must think africans are more decent than the white counterparts, don't you? I wonder how u'd explain the near nud.ity or females in the Calabar carnival, or the traditional zulu dressing for women in their festivals, or the many other African examples I wouldnt mind listing if you so wish.

When you do not know something, keep quiet about it. Crossing legs is not unethical or indecent. Stop trying to set standards for God!

@ignis: is the biggest dreamer of 2013.....waoh!!!

Image123: and where did i say or imply that others or myself do not need the fruits of the spirit? If she displayed those fruits, we won't be having this thread from her. i gave out my food today if that counts for selflessness, so what of you mr.judge? Go and read 1John3:16 and cure your brazen ignorance.

What makes you think that crossing of leg disqualifies one from having the fruit of the spirit?

Bokoharam: I am a worker in mthe church. Sometime last year, Someone called my attention to a lady that crossed her legs inside the church. My reaction was, "would you rather have her open her legs wide for worshipped to see through?" it was not up to 3 minutes before over 5 people told me the same thing. Of cause, I told them there is nothing wrong with that. I told them as a matter of fact, girls are advised to cross their legs to guard their vital areas. Since them, I have never been told that. Nobody also told me any reason it should not be done.

If they had reasons they could have presented it, this whole thing has to do with our culture, as (AFRICANS) why we see it as disrespectful to God, God does not see it that way.

Oahray: "the op needs..." and you don't? Another self righteous pretender. When was the last time you were selfless for others? You don't have to answer, you'd likely lie anyway.

The bible never said YOU HAVE TO lay your life for others. It simply says you should love others enough to lay your life for them. Its not the same thing.

Stop trying to paint a human tradition as something from God. Just say that is what the pastor or religious leader wants, and because he is a demi-god, he should be obeyed without any objection.
That is closer to the truth than these piles of unscriptural trash you guys are disguising as support.

Thank you my broda, "thier rules are but rules of men", this tradition is not practice worldwide, Why only in Nigeria Churches we have this case?
We are now the purest and the most decent people in the world .....!

Image123: no mind us, no bi exactly grammar thing. Its more of history between the two of us.

You this trouble finder.....

Zikkyy: Let me for the purpose of understanding your post agree that it is the xmas is the tradition of men. Okay, so what? if it is the traditions of men nko? you are not telling me anything here. The reason i said your points are ripped off the JW's checklist The argument of 'traditions of men' have already been debunked by zikkyy i have shown that Jesus did not condemn the tradition of washing hands before eating as pagan, so who are you to condemn every tradition of men as pagan practices? What was Jesus concern about tradition? Read again Jesus response to the pharisee in Mathew 15:

"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man".

"......But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies..."

The pharisee teaches washing of hands before eating as a commandment and a sin if you don't do it. They hold these traditions above God's commandment. Jesus had issues with the teachings (the bolded) but did not condemn the tradition of washing hands itself.

In the same manner, i have shown that my hanging a harmless tree in my sitting room is not what defiles me, but the intentions of my heart is what God looks at. But i don't expect you to see this because just like the pharisee before you, you have adopted a very narrow and legalistic approach to matters of external worship and observance of commandments.

I will only present you the scripture, You have the choice, no one is forcing anything on you. Your chop chop seem very important than anything else ...

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

[size=14pt]2Thessalonians 3:6 ¶ Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;[/size]

Zikkyy who did you recieve christmas traditon from? Christ, His apostles or the Catholic church elder/elders?

zikkyy:@bolded, maybe you should be advising your JW brothers.

Are you @true2god.....

zikkyy: There are lots of stuff the early xtians did not celebrate. for example, they did not feast when they buy a new donkey, they did not feast when they buy new dress or the latest weave-on they did not feast when the won America visa lottery sorry, i meant ticket to visit Rome my sister abeg leave matter jare. We know there is no evidence that suggests the early church celebrated Christ birth, that is not an issue. Did the bible say that doing what the early Christians did not do amounts to sinning against God?

Haba, na so you be? We are talking of a feast that was dedicated to the sun god and was tagged with Christ, you are here ranting of cars, ticket, clothes etc...

BTW, does this things you mentioned up there worth celebrating? it seems you are intentionally creating irrelevant issues

Zikkyy: You had every opportunity to nail this argument one time. instead of going about shouting "traditions of men", all you ever needed to do was show how this practice was elevated above God's commandment, or how the practice of celebrating Christ birth will stop a christian from following the commandments of God. It's a very simple matter, really quoting verses and spicing it with your own bias interpretations is not a good approach.

You are ignoring scriptures bro.....! I wont repeat myself on this!

Zikkyy: It's not looking bad but seriously, it's not an issue at this time. It is not what makes xmas a pagan activity.

I thought you were arguing the activities and decorations are not rooted from the pagan feast? These pictures make you debunked yourself.

May 5: so are you saying a persons that crosses their legs while in church are not well train

No, i was saying that home training should be done at home not in the church.

Crossing of legs when sitting doesn't make one look disobedient.

tomzman: You know that not every issue is expresslly treated in the Bible. Apostle Paul admonishes us to do things with the consideration of the next person in mind so as not to make him fall. I personally have no issues with it but generally, In this part of the world, it is very difficult to separate culture from christianity and here, crossing of legs in public is seen as bad. So, anyone who looks around in Church and sees the OP crossing her legs would have uncomfortable thoughts and feelings about her. That moment, his mind has drifted off the service into something else. So, for the sake of that and so as not to attract unnecessary attention to herself, I believe the OP should try and avoid it.

I agree with you, but will it be a problem if it was to be a man that crossed his legs? We are taking this personally as Africans.
I can understand the culture traditions of our fathers but as Christians, we are supposed to follow biblical examples.
The things which are not penned are not Gods command. Scripture treated dressing mode, eating etc etc..if how
we sit and stand should be a case, It would have been treated as well

I wouldn't believed crossing of legs in the Church would be a case until i saw this thread....

1 Peter 1:18-19, "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from
your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:"

Goshen360: This topic can only be argued 'scripturally' or 'logically'.

[size=16pt]Scripturally, we do not have anything against someone siting and crossing legs while in worship place. If a man does it, it might not be an issue but because it's a woman, now it's an issue. This is nothing but tradition - that is, if it can be done in one part of the world but cannot be done in another part of the world. That is not the gospel - whatever you can't preach anytime, anywhere is not for the universal church. Jesus and the Apostles warned against traditions of men.[/size]

New International Version (©1984)
You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men." - Mark 7:8

New International Version (©1984)
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. - Colossians 2:8

New International Version (©1984)
I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. - Galatians 1:14


Logically, what is the explanation that crossing legs in worship place(s) is wrong?

1. Is it that it offends another person? If it offends another person, how?
2. Is it that the lady who crosses her legs closes up properly or opens up carelessly? which one?

If we are going to explain why it is wrong to cross legs in worship places logically, then we must explain or give the reason(s).

Thank you for this very truth, If everyone can rely only on the Scripture traditions, Men Traditions won't be growing stronger each day in the Church.
You hit the point seriously, It matters alot because the OP happens to be a female.

piero2u: This is the problem with women, right from time they can't obey simple instructions.
GOD: Don't eat of the fruit of the forbidden
tree.
EVE: why shouldn't I eat it, why is it
forbidden? It doesn't make sense

Eve eats the fruit and the rest is history.
To cut the long story short, DON'T CROSS YOUR LEGS IN CHURCH.

Keep women out of this, this is a habit for both sex, btw, if the man ADAM that seeks a helper had stayed
close to His helper, would the serpent had gotten the chance to decieve the woman?
You peole like accusing women here and then. Christ came to this world was possible without a man.

Jesus ressurected, it was a woman that sew him first. All this make no sense to you?
why referring to ur ADAM AND EVE old school story? Mind you, it was not a woman that betrayed Jesus.

Please tell us what the scripture says on crossing of legs jare!

Now we are going to see what the Scripture says on tradition of men and of God. It may be long because Scriptures will have to explain Scripture.
Traditions from/of God are in accord with His word, and are recorded in, scripture. While Traditions of men are not supported by the Scripture and this nullify the Scripture.

Did the Scripture gave traditions of God? YES:

2Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and "not after the tradition which he received of us".

2Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
AS PLAINLY SHOWED HERE, WE DID RECIEVED SOME TRADITIONS FROM CHRIST AND THE APOSTLES!

1 Peter 1:18-19, "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:"


We are going to see that Jesus used only the Scripture in settling every matter that was brought before Him.
He secured His arguments with His opponents by saying "Have you not read?" The Scripture reveals that Jesus held ONLY what is written in the book.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it "not written in your law", I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

When He disputed the Pharisees on their high view of tradition see: Mark 7:13
when He was tested by the Sadduces concerning the resurrection, He continue qouting the Scripture:

Mark 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

When He was confronted by the devil, Jesus responded three times(3*): "It is written" (Matt. 4:4-10).

The word of God says, in severally pages of the Bible, that our faith is not to rest in human wisdom.
That we should not use human wisdom or reasoning to tamper with His word! You are not to add your own thoughts
in “your wisdom” or to ‘correct’ or subtract from His thoughts. This is a point @Goshen360 was trying to make, If you must correct in the body of Christ
Why not lie hands on the Scripture. It's a very serious thing to violate God's word by holding so much on traditions of men.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6 Add thou not unto his words, [b] lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Deut 4:2 [b] Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. A strong warning right from the old till Christ second comming. "DO NOT ADD TO IT"! [/b]This is a very serious thing
for any man in his own wisdom, to subtract from or to add anything to the word of God.

Reve 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 [b] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

We have seen that Jesus did not add traditions outside of what was recorded but that He made the scriptures to be understood by His disciples.

Christ and His disciples expounded on the OT, Luke 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.(Luke 24:32,31, John 5:38-47, I Corinthians 14:37) This is not Adding to the scripture.

Extra-biblical traditions means ADDING some things that are nt found in the scriptures at all.
Those who do so need to heed the warnings of tampering- -be it adding or subtracting. The ideal of telling someone how to sit or stand should be backed up with the Scripture.
If Christ had failed to use Scripture for every issue that was brought to Him, He couldn't have given perfect replies to His opponets.

The Church are to do thesame, take example from Jesus and His Apostles. If there was a reason why the Church Told the OP not to cross her legs, then They should have
used the scripture to explain and not by traditions outside of what is written in scripture.

The Church should disregard men tradition for Scripture. So much to say on this topic. As this is one of the things eating up the Church.

MEN TRADITION!

Image123: And your point is?

This is a Nigeria tradition, not from the scripture.

Image123: Is that the way of the christian, to please yourself and displease others?

Tell us how is it a way of a Christian not to cross leg? Ur argument should be base on the Scripture! Is it wrong to displease oneself to please others?

Image123: and you can sell there as well since it is your father's house. you can even start living there or build a kiosk there.

Image...this thing is seen disrespectful because in Nigerian, we know young people dare not cross leg where elders are sitting how much more, they see a youth do that in the Church. The traditions of our fathers is what has been transmitted to the Church. People of a different culture/tradition will be disrespecting God if we are to generalise this crossing leg habit.

tomzman: Did you read the opening post at all? The OP said her dress wasn't short.

@topic. I personally do not see anything wrong in it but I think for the sake of others who may find it offensive, the OP shoul try and avoid crossing her legs when she is in church.

What could make it offensive to others? She should now please others and displease herself....after all no one has provided this was a tradition of the Apostled!

ignis: It is very wrong, it does not show any sign of respect at all.

HOW? Is this the Scripture or Nigeria tradition? Tell us, we may learn this Scripture from you

Petraman: I don't think anything is bad about dat. We're in d presence of God, u're suppose to be comfortable, not to be in agony. If it's comfortable for u wen u cross ur leg, den continue. So far u're not sleeping, or disturbing other people.

This must be proper Nigeria tradition in the church. Crossing leg is an habit, some people are very comfortable with it, Men, women boys and girls cross leg in church here in the West. They don't do it only when they are in church. At home work etc.. The former president of France Mr Sako during interview do cRossed His legs, even the journalist was crossing hers. Does this mean She disrespected her President No...They both must felt it was polite for them to sit like that in a public interview.(tv). Africans are too superstition, when you put ur two hand on ur head, they tell u don't do that, Becos it signifies someone is dead. Haha, we are Christians, traditions is polluting the Church of Christ gradually. Some people are accusing the OP of her skirt, what about the men in my church that usually sit like this? One of my Pastor, a Canadian man can't just sit without crossing his legs. HE MUST BE DISRESPECTING GOD AND HIS BRETHREN THEN

Image123: This is nonsense. 1 plus 1 equals 2 is truth and does not need to be established by quoting bible passages. i've insisted that we are not referring to the gospel, or sin, or heaven and hell here. If you think crossing your legs affect your eternity, that is your personal thought. Dirtiness is bad, too much salt in food is bad, collecting something with your left hand is even bad over here in my area. i respect that, and i don't unnecessarily offend others with that because i have knowledge. The OP said she obviously knows that are action is bad, you say she's obviously not convinced. Well, God is watching as they say. . Did God tell those folks that it was bad for them to sell in His house before He whipped their backs literally? They knew it was bad contextually, but they were probably looking for where to establish it first like you.

SEE POINTS NA.... IMAGE123 DON VEX....OYA WETIN BAD MORE, BEGIN DEY POUR THEM HERE...

JeSoul: You dis my sister wetin now? christmas you no do. Easter you no do. Sunday sabbath you no do. New year now you no do ah ah...

Whether you like am or not Happy New year jor

---

President Goshen. Suffrey suffrey. Nobody can establish from scripture either that eating amala is right or wrong...if you catch my drift

Hahahaha....Sisterly no be my fault ooo, The world we live in today is a polluted one, we just have to becareful with certain holidays.
I am trying to grow in the faith, na God dey strenghten Him children oo, it's not an easy race anyway......

I appreciate, God bless you sisterly.

Uyi Iredia: Interesting. I will keep it in mind.

Despirate muslim in parade, Arabic has suddenly becomes The sole language of the God of Isreal in which He communicates with the world

Make una dey show unaself de more, maybe una fit win weak minds....