chrisxxx:

From your answer you have given a clean credence to my argument. Chimpanzees and Apes do not belong to the same class although they may look alike. This also applies to iron (although you said metal perhaps you lack peripheral knowledge of chemistry as good is also a metal) and gold. They are both metal but class apart.
I believe this settles it. Igbos and Ikwerres are not same people.

Wàhálà dey. My analogies went completely over your head. Chimpanzees are apes. Your biology is weak. I didn't mention iron in my example. I said metal. I know what I said. Again, the analogies went completely over your head.

I'll leave this question of Ikwerre vs Igbo here, because being an old timer here, I have grown very tired of the never-ending back and forth.

chrisxxx:

Let me submit this. Would you accept to be Ikwerre if Ikwerres had 5 states and Igbos just 4 LGAs?

If there are two million chimpanzees in the world and only 200 apes, will the apes accept to all be called chimpanzees?

If I have 30 bars of gold and just three bars of metal, can I just call my bars of metal all gold?

This is what your question sounds like to me.

Christistruth03:


Alimi's descendants have long being removed

Emir Gambari is a Hausa man!

Gambari means Hausa in Yoruba and Ilorins know how the the Hausas took over

,Alimi was Fulani

The Screenshot was a British Officer admitting that the Balogun Alabama was the Ruler of Ilorin


Emir Momoh had already been defeated by the Yoruba Chiefs lead by Balogun Alanamu and he had killed himself by Burning down his Palace over himself

It was Balogun Alanamu the British fought and took Ilorin from he was banished to Jebba by them

At the very least, bring a screenshot that supports what you're saying na. This screenshot you keep bringing is not saying anything about a Hausa take-over. That Balogun Alanamu was the defacto leader doesn't mean the emirship had left the House of Alimi. All that your screenshot is saying is that the Emir was a puppet ruler, but Emir he still was! At the risk of repeating myself, this wasn't the first time in history that one man held the title in name and someone else ran the show.

The Balogun Alanamu was of Yoruba heritage, anyways, so I fail to see how emphasising on the fact that he was defacto ruler at the time of the British incursions helps your argument of an Hausa take-over.

All academic sources are unanimous that Sulu-Gambari is descended from Abdusalami, son of Alimi.

Christistruth03:



The Balogun Hausa did a Coup against the Fulani and took Over Ilorin Throne after the Hausas noticed that almost all the Slaves passing through Ilorin from the Northern Jihad Areason the Slave Route to the Lagos Coast were Hausas and the Hausas in Ilorin became Furious and had a big fight with the Fulani in Ilorin

Their complaint was if they were the ones fighting a Jihad how come it was Hausas being Sold and hardly any Fulani

Emir Sulu Gambari descended from the Balogun Hausa

That was when the Yorubas started using the Proverb "Gambari pa Fulani Ko si ejo n'be"

Which means if the Hausas and the Fulani have decided to kill themselves (at Ilorin)

It is none of our Business


By the time the British arrived the Balogun Yoruba Alanamu had Checkmated everyone and was the Ruler of Ilorin

It was the Balogun Yoruba that the British fought in Ilorin and reinstated the already deposed Emir because of Pressure from the Northern Emirs


The Referendum on Kwara which was agreed with the British before independence was granted was supposed to have held at the same time as the Midwest Referendum But Balewa and Azikiwe never carried it out be together with the Referendum for the Eastern Region and Northern Region Minorities

The screenshot attached does not support the idea of a dynastic change. There is nothing unique in history about the military class (such as the Balogun were) gaining more power than the kings and making the kings their puppets. It happened in Japan, for instance, under the shoguns.

But there is nowhere in oral or written history where it is stated that the Hausa Baloguns overthrew the descendants of Alimi and took the throne.

All documents maintain that the throne of Ilorin was rotated between the descendants of the two sons of Alimi: Abdusalami and Shitta. Since 1915, however Abdusalami's descendants have dominated the succession. Sulu-Gambari is a descendant of Abudsalami, son of Alimi.

The question remains, however, as to how the name Gambari came about. It might probably point to a Hausa maternal connection. But the line of Alimi has remained unbroken to this day.

Christistruth03:

By the way the Emir of Ilorin is Hausa and not Fulani

Are you saying Sulu-Gambari is not a direct descendant of Alimi? When did the dynasty change? Or are you just assuming he is Hausa because of the 'Gambari' in his name?

Is this priestess from Ilorin? If she isn't, then it sounds to me like she was looking for trouble. A priest of Onicha in Umunede will not leave his community to go and celebrate Onicha in Igbuzo.

lawani:


But that is what they have been doing with Ifa in Brazil, Cuba and recently the USA, it is the national theology of Cuba, in Brazil, they are most proficient, search online and you see Harvard and other universities having Ifa journals, it only remains to be issuing formal degrees in conventional universities and that will start happening very soon as it becomes a sort of chartered profession

Ifa is spreading to the Americas as a religion. The papers written on Ifa are religious papers. The same way theologians write paper about theology and publish them in theology journals. They are not scientific papers in the way a physics paper is.

Most papers on Ifa focus on its literary value as poetry or on its binary method. The Bible contains rich literary passages and chapters of great philosophical value, but no one is making the argument that the Bible or Christianity is a science. Except for nutters.

Point me to one peer-reviewed paper that explains how ifa can be used to predict anything. The paper must have a methodology, and I should be able to get palm nuts or cowries, follow the methodology and get statistically significant results.

Probz:


Horoscope reading? Are you serious?

Leave am. 😂

Oga Lawani, until the people practising all these arts begin to publish their methodologies and results in papers and journals for people to follow their processes. And until people around the world have read their methodologies and been able to independently replicate the results many times over and proven that statistically they work, these things remain outside the domain of science, no matter how you choose to see them.

That's what separates science from magic. If a scientist in Spain does ABC in the lab and gets XYZ result. He should be able to publish his methodology and findings. And other scientists in Japan, Australia, Sweden, Argentina, Mexico, South Africa...all around the world...should be able to follow the methodology and arrive at the same results. That's how science works.

Horoscope readings that are wrong more than half the time is what you're calling a science. Lmao.

lawani:


Anything done with methodology that can be taught other people is using the scientific method. Astrology, numerology, ouija board reading, horoscope reading, Ifa and etc

Lol. Like I said, no actual scientist worth his salt will call these things science. None. These things are no different from the ancient Chinese using hot metals to make cracks on tortoise shells and trying to read the will of the ancestors from the burn cracks.

lawani:


For example, if you cast Ifa to ask what is this person thinking?, what is best for me to do?. What will happen to the world in 2030?, what is the prospect of this marriage? etc etc, you don't have to read it yourself, someone else who is proficient in Ifa can come and read it, other people can also offer perspectives etc etc. That is scientific theism. Totally different from Christianity and Islam.

Oh. There's nothing scienitfic about this sort of thing, sir. It's the same age-old clairvoyance, divination and fortune telling that is found in every culture since the beginning of human history. Only 'liberal arts' people who use the word 'science' very loosely will call this science. "Science" is a very different thing.

If whatever you are doing does not have a methodology which is clearly explainable and which can be replicated with the same results by other people, you're not doing science.

What exactly does "Scientific theology" mean? Isn't that term even paradoxical?

Ologbo147:
yes oko without the ro means this man, this person, this human but it is hardly ever used for a woman. You can have examples of Oko, Ya vie wmin ni me. This man go and bring that stuff for me and so on in daily conversations and even movies

Okay. Thank you.

Dancebreaker:

Okoro is an ancient Benin name.

Okoro was originally a gentleman but over time became used for Prince. Oba's male children are called Okoro. Benin Crown Prince is called Okoro n'Okhua. He's only called Edaiken upon maturity when he moves to Edaiken Palace at Uselu.

I know at least 20 Benin families with surname Okoro.

Question: Does 'oko' or 'oke' mean 'male' in any Edoid language?

AutomaticMotors:


My Edo brothers samuk Evboesi sotall don't waste your time answering that boy called redbonesmith, notice after he lost the argument with so much shame he came at you'all like a pained python with his leprous Igboid moniker?

This boy Redbonesmith has been cosplaying as igbo on this nairaland for years but he is just a confused Enuani boy from delta state. Even when most Anioma people in Delta north align accordingly with their Edo ancestry this particular confused one thinks he is more Igbo than the actual 'Iboes' even a full Igbo man called him out earlier in this thread for being "An Igbo WannaBe" .... In my life I have never seen such a chronic low sense of self worth and esteem ...it is sad and hilarious at the same time.

Redbonesmith keep cosplaying as igbo but know one thing "You will never be Accepted" Ever"

Dey whine jesus no worry your eye go clear


Cc @Stoplying come and peruse this thread

You are such a butt-hurt patch of slime and a low IQ vermin to boot.😂 Even when I am not interested in looking your way, you'll be looking for my attention. Three mentions, all from YOU. It must be really eating away at your spirit that I do not and will never identify as Edo, which is why you take every opportunity to call me a wannabe. That pain you feel will kill you. 😂

Please, take your motor park self out of my way, let me see road to engage with your more intelligent brothers.

alfarouq:


Seeing as you systematically try to turn a topic of similarity between major tribes in Nigeria to an Islam and Muslim bashing thread，t is either you are at best an ignorant person or at worst an Islam hater who ignorantly thinks he can increase his appeal with whichever God you believe in by throwing around false claims about Islam.

Nothing is celebrated and encouraged in Islam as much as scholarship. In fact， the first verse that was revealed to the prophet PBUH is read， Also there is a special regard for scholsrship and scholars in Islam than amy other group of people.

The only reason muslims of today seems backward in terms of advancement is becaise they are straying away from the path Islam laid which is the path of scholarship and decided to follow their whims and the ways of the people of the world. This is largely because they have embraced so much comfort because of excessive wealth from oil or are engaged in infighthing there by having little time for self development.


Islam and Muslims gave the world Algebra， the foundation of Science， gave Algorithm （ computation） gave how epidemics are managed and how diseases are managed （check cannon of medicine. Developed surgical procedures that was used and adopted by the world for more than 500 years.

Here in Nigeria， before some peoples parents learn to read， Muslims have been reading and writing，have structured system of governments that span as far as Sudan, developed indigenous building and military, clothing industries technologies all thanks to Islam.

The contributions of Islam and Muslims to science and technology is not exhaustible here ， you can research and read more on it if you truly care to know.


When people like Galileo Galilee and Leanardo Da vinci are been persecuted by the Church for heresy， Ibn Haytham， Ibn Khaldun and Ibn Senna were celebrated in the Muslim world.

I think it is telling that we have to travel back nearly a thousand years to find a time when Islam was compatible with progress.

**exhausted sigh**

Evboesi:
Osamakue also followed that naming pattern, there is also Ehimakue but it is not common. Both of them means God does not agree and Ehi does not agree. I dont think any of the languages borrowed the kue or kwe word from each other even though the OSA was undeniably borrowed from Edo. I mean outside the name, the kue word is used everyday for negotiation and so on. A word like agree or you agree certainly was not borrowed even though in names it seem to appear more in igboid lect. Edo is spoken along some 8,600 km2 of land. Over 8 to times larger than the Ika speaking space. That Ehi was borrowed from the the Ika and drifted into the Ika linguistic speech form and then Ehikwe was now borrowed by the Edo again does not really sit well with me as an Edo. If we are to talk about Ehikwe, what about Osakue, Osamakue, Ehimakue and so on. I mean these are names with standard meanings from the giver with an intention.

What about those communities on the far flung western frontiers that does not have any relationship with Ika. I do not subscribe to the fact that the Combination of OSA and Kue will have to be borrowed

There was nowhere I said Edo borrowed Kue from anybody, but okay.

sotall:

Stick to speaking igbo language and dont try to dabble into other languages you have no knowledge of.

Pronunciation of "Osakue" in Edo language has the "Kw" sound. It is not pronounced KU-e.
It is pronounced "Kwe". And it means "agree".


Stop soreading half truths and ignorance here.

Riddle me this. Why isn't there a kw in the Edo alphabet then? You're pronouncing Kue fast and thinking you're saying 'kw'

[quote author=sotall post=124141343]

Get an Edo-speaking person to tell you the meaning of those names up there and stop messing around.

Don't be dodgy then. Provide their meanings. I provided the meanings of the Kwe words that I listed.

An Edo names dictionary says Iyalekhue (which you wrote as Iyalekue) means I forgive; and Ikuenobe means I will not succumb to evil.

You're more than welcome to correct what I saw in the dictionary. Set the record straight by telling us what the names mean.

sotall:



And your last paragraph trying to tell us that kue and kwe are pronounced differently reeks of someone desperately grasping at revisionism.

Yes, they are not pronounced the same! If you have been calling your Igbo friend Osakue, you have been pronouncing his name wrong. Osakwe is pronounced with a strong kw- sound, like in other Igbo words like ụkwụ (leg) or Chukwu. Edo people who don't have this sound in their language will typically say uku and Chuku, except for those who have self consciously trained themselves to articulate the kw- sound.

So for you it is Osa-K-U-e. With a 'k' and a 'u' sounds.

For your Igbo friend it is Osa-KW-e. With a single 'kw' sound.

Learn the difference, oga.

sotall:


Osamakue
Ikuenobe
Ehikue
Iyalekue.

Wait. I just tried to research these names, and I think you're trying to pull a hood over my eyes. The Kue part of most of them doesn't have anything to do with "agree", "allow" or "permit" which is what kue means in Osakue and what kwe means in Osakwe and all the Kwe names I have listed.

So it appears you have not been able to present me with another Edo name that follows the pattern under discussion.

Except for Ehikue. Incidentally, this name too exists in Ika as Ehikwe. 😂

While the ehi prefix is without doubt borrowed from Edo, I will argue that in the Ika area it was grafted unto a long-existing kwe name pattern of Igbo origin and then reborrowed by the Edo as Ehikue.

sotall:


Just as there are many "kwe" names in igbo are there "kue" names in Edo.

Here is a list i can remember but there are so many others.

Osamakue
Ikuenobe
Ehikue
Iyalekue.

The fact that you cannot come up with many (as I and many Igbos easily can) demonstrates that it is significantly less common than kwe names in Igbo. Ikuenobe doesn't actually fit the pattern, so in essence all you gave me are three names. If I wanted I could go on and on. I could draw up my friend list on Facebook right down and come up with tens and tens of Igbo people with kwe names.

Now i repeat Osakwe is of Edoid origin, it is very obvious unless you can bring proof otherwise.

You yourself have not brought evidence that Osakwe was borrowed from Benin. Kwe is a bonafide Igbo word. Osa, Ose, Olisa, Olise may have ultimately been borrowed but it was integrated into Igbo cosmology, and the name could have been sourced from that native cosmology that had already absorbed Osa, without having to import the name wholesale from the Edo. Osejindu, Osemeke, Oseloka, Akaosa, Nwosa, etc. Were these names also borrowed from Edo because they possess the Osa prefix?

BTW, if we choose to follow this Osa argument to its logic conclusion, the origin may ultimately point to Yoruba, rather than Edo, origin. But let's not even go there. It would be unnecessary digressing.

The core igbo speaking people do not use "osa" in their names. This "Osa" prefix/suffix is predominantly being used by the Edo speaking people.

I don't do this core Igbo/non-core Igbo nonsense. My close friend from Agukwu-Nri goes by the name of Oseloka.

If it was "chi" or "chukwu" , i bet no one will argue this. I would expect to hear Chukwukwe if it was an igboid name.

Chukwukwe and Chikwe are well-used names among the Igbo. Now the Igbo communities who also used Orisa/Olisa and its contracted form, Osa, simply swapped out the Chi/Chukwu to get names like Orisakwe, Olisakwe and Osakwe, all of which are common among "Igboid" people, both in the southeast and the southsouth.

That some people are bearing Osakwe instead of Osakue doesn't make the name igboid. Its just spelling differences and doesn't change a thing.

It is not merely a spelling difference. Pronunciation is also different.
Ku-e and kwe are not pronounced the same. Edo doesn't have a kw sound. Saying this does not negate them being cognate, of course. But they are NOT pronounced the same way, and neither group borrowed kue/kwe from the other.

Darren95:
I was wondering if there are languages in the North that are similar to Hausa language??

Maybe due to culture integration or similar ancestry?

Gwandara is the closest language to Hausa language. Angas is also close to Hausa, since they both belong to the same West Chadic branch of the Afro-Asiatic language family. There are many others, but they are all severely endangered, being spoken only by a few thousand people at most.

sotall:
Now let's take a deeper look into the name "Osakwe"

Looking at this name, every good student of Nigerian culture and language will recognize the name is of Edoid origin and not igboid.

First the prefix "osa" is mainly used by Edoid groups in their names especially those who speak Edo language and it means God. Hence majority of those in Nigeria whose names begin or end with "osa" are from Edo state or speak an Edoid language.

On the other hand igbos and igboid group uses the prefix "Chi" and "chukwu" in their names as their own prefix and it also means God. So you find many igbo names with like Chidinma, chukwudi, Chinonso etc.

This gives another perspective on the origin of that name. Everything is not arguement, just learn and move on.

How many Kue names exist among the Edo? I'm just asking for enlightenment purposes, as I have not heard any other one apart from Osakue. Can you make a little list, if you can?

But Kwe names are very typical among the Igbo:
Anikwe - If the Earth deity agrees
Uwakwe - If the world agrees
Mbakwe - If the community or town agrees
Ohakwe - If the public agrees
Agbarakwe - if the deity agrees
Ezekwe - if the Eze agrees (I don't like translating eze as king, as that is not what it originally meant)
Nzekwe - if the titled man agrees
Umunnakwe - if the kindred agrees
Igbokwe - if the community agrees

And the list just goes on....

Even if we accept the argument that 'osa' was originally derived from the Edoid, it was simply grafted unto a typical Igbo name structure.

Saying that Osakwe was borrowed from the Edoid is like saying Ijesurobo was borrowed from Latin. Ijesu is derived from the Latin name for Jesus, which is Jesu. But it was grafted unto an Edo naming pattern. You can actually observe other Edo names like Osarobo, Oghenerobo and Obarobo, which follow the same pattern. Osakwe follows a demonstrably Igbo name pattern.

How many other Edo names follow the Osakue pattern? It would be pretty telling if there were many Edo people bearing Obakue or Oghenekue for instance, but I don't think there are. (Feel free to correct me.) If other names of that pattern don't exist in Edoid or are not common in Edoid, then it will even be tempting to reach the conclusion that Edo Osakue was influenced by Igbo Osakwe, despite the 'osa' element possibly being originally an Edo loan.

ariesbull:


I speak Benin and there is nothing like Kue in Benin language


What we have us Gue ....Osagie , Osague and noting like Osakue


No dey lie

You're still here standing fast on your ignorance even after evidence had been shown to you many times. This level of obtuse pigheadedness is admirable

You don't speak Benin, by the way. No need to lie.

Cassandraloius:
Someone just asked a simple question and some people are being tribalistic about it

The post itself is tribalistic.

The Escravos River in Delta State takes its name from the Portuguese word for slaves. The Portuguese bought a lot of slaves from that place in the 16th century.

It is embarrassing that the river's name has not officially been changed.

Guide777:

But the same you don't believe the same Homo erectus had capabilities of socio-Cultural identities because the popular history said so . Like I said , Acholonu will be celebrated some day when we stopped viewing her works from ethnic prism .

The same me doesn't what? Was there ever a time me and you had a discussion about Homo erectus and their "socio-cultural" identities? 😂

What does popular history mean sef? Acholonu's history is actually what is known as popular history, i.e., the kind of history accessible to the wider public, who may not have the patience or the intellectual stamina for the more academic stuff, which often ends up being consumed and debated only by the very few in scholarly circles.

As for Acholonu's work being celebrated. In scholarly circles? Among competent historians, archaeologists and historical linguists? Don't hold your breath. It will continue to be consumed by the lay Igbo public who are titillated by the grandiose claims she makes for the Igbo people, but that's where it will ever end.

davidnazee:


It is funny how these previously unknown and historyless tribes are now seeking past glory just to feel good.
This one is coming up with jargons about how igbos led the world to industrialization lol..

There is no such thing as a historyless people. Archaeology, linguistics and careful use of oral traditions are beginning to shine light on the past of groups around the world for whom we don't possess written records. Don't be a Hegel or a Trevor-Roper. This is not the 1950s.

Guide777:

Mislead you say? I don't know if you have read her works , I have . Perhaps I am one of those she 'mislead' . Prof. Acholonu chose not to follow the popular "history" handed down by the colonial masters. And I tell you her works were more organic albeit; well researched and based on archeological findings . It's not popular now but Someday we are gonna be "misled".

I have read her works, and I don't even know where to begin to tell you how many bizzare claims she made. Should we talk about her claim that Heliopolis in Ancient Egypt is actually Igbo-Ukwu? Should we talk about her claim that the Igbo are over 500,000 years old, when we know from science and archaeology that Homo sapiens was not even here 500,000 years. Of course she based this last claim on the tentative dating of the Ugwuele hand ax factory to the Acheulian period, which is believed to have flourished hundreds of thousands of years ago. I say "tentative" because we don't have radiocarbon dates for the handax factory; the date is a guestimate. What Acholonu did not know (since she had no training in history or in archaeology) was that Acheulian artifacts were actually made by Homo erectus, not by modern Homo sapiens, let alone by Igbo people.

These are just a two of the countless bizarre claims peppered throughout her work. I don't even want to start with the pseudolinguistic games she appeared very fond of, which led her to claim that every language in the world has its roots in Igbo.

It's easy to understand why most of you are taken in by Acholonu. Academic proper history can be really dry. Then comes along someone who splashes a very liberal quantity of wild fantasy to a dry subject and sells to you the product. Of course many people will buy!

Guide777:

Now I understand why someone is repeatedly called "Scumbag of Nairaland".

Lol. Was she a family member? So sorry I had to be so blunt. But there's no other way to say it.

Her work on Igbo history have mislead many young Igbos into a false sense of their history. She should have stuck with what she was trained for, which is contemporary literature. For Igbo history turn to the professionals: Adele Afigbo, Ifemesia, John Oriji, etc. Leave Acholonu's fantasy books, because that is exactly what they are - fantasy.

People in this part of the world tend to have a penchant for exaggerative language. One wonders why. Iron smelting is not equal to industrialisation anymore than the discovery of fire or the invention of the bow. The whole world was pre-industrial before the late 18th and the 19th century by which time iron working had been known to mankind for at least 4000 years.