₦airaland Forum

Efewestern:
Cite historical documents. Don't just say words, give valid references.

I'm very vast with history. There's no Urhobo/Isoko community that obtained confirmation from any Aboh king. Even receiving blessings from the Oba of Bini was mostly done by chiefs. Urhobo communities were fully autonomous.

The Abraka you cited is a border town to Aka (Bini), that's where it got its name from. Infact, Abraka was involved with a number of clashes with Bini. Why would Abraka, a town that is closer to Bini seek confirmation from an unrelated and faraway king from Aboh? Obi of Aboh has no single influence on any Urhobo clan. The only external king revered was/is the Oba of Bini.

clefstone gave you an example of how a name of Ndokwa/Ukwuani origin got into Uvwie, the next you could do is say Aboh had influence on Urhobo terrain. How? When?

Like I already said, those are not my words. Those were the words of historians and ethnographers who actually did work in the area. First screenshot, quote is from Professor Alagoa, and in the references he cited that the information was obtained in colonial times from the Abraka people themselves.

Screenshot Two is from Bradbury. In the 1950s when Bradbury was doing his research in the area, the practice was apparently still current.

I actually have more source materials in hard copy form but I don't have my books with me.

I am not making anything up. What I said is supported by historical literature. It is left for you to argue with the literature, not me. Also, Abraka is not a border town to Benin and is not closer to Benin than to Aboh.

Efewestern:
Ovie of Abraka confirmed in office by the Obi of Aboh

This is actually stated and recorded in history texts, including the works of renowned Isoko and Urhobo historians like the late Professor Obaro Ikime. The texts state that because Benin was quite far, it became fashionable for the Ovie of Abraka and some other ivie in that axis to obtain their confirmation from the Obi of Aboh whose domain was closer. I didn’t make it up. Look at your own historical records.

clefstone:
I have not asserted here that Aboh colonized Nsukka, I only made the assertion that Aboh people who settled in Nsukka most likely took the Surname Ossai to that axis.

That's the problem. There is a total absence of traditions of familiarity with Aboh in Nsukka area. Given the fact that Aboh Kingdom isn't that ancient (was probably established no earlier than the late 15th/16th century) this absence of traditions cannot be explained away by postulating that Aboh-Nsukka interactions are so ancient that they have been forgotten; I would expect to hear echoes of Aboh presence. There are zero echoes and that's quite telling. Meanwhile there are echoes in Ossomala, in Nnewi, in Oraifite, in Aguleri, etc. Why nothing from Nsukka which uses the name Ossai much much much more than the aforementioned places? It's not adding up.

You are very right when you wrote that Aboh was not known for distant inland expeditions. However, Aboh people were known to have a strong trade and social relationship with the Igalas. It is on record that the Obi of Aboh's son went to Idah to settle a dispute that arose relating to Aboh people in Igalaland in the 19th century. What this means is that Aboh people were settled in Igala at that time. The opposite is also the case as we have people of Igala ancestry who have lived in Aboh for more than hundred years, and are now fully Aboh people(I personally know some).

Some of these Aboh people must have found their way to Nsukka from Igala and took the name Ossai there. Infact, I was amazed once when a friend told me he father's place use to phrase "m'biaka" to say "I am coming" which is exactly what we say in Aboh.

The problem with this theory of Aboh getting into Nsukka via Igala is that it fails to take cognizance of the fact that the different groups who dominated trade on the Niger had trade zones that they guarded fiercely and wouldn't let their competitors gain access to. While the Igala and the Aboh were without a doubt in intensive commercial, political and economic contacts, they would not have in their heyday given Aboh access to their trade routes through the Nsukka area. And even if that access was granted, would the water-based Aboh have even found it attractive? In times of conflict with the Aboh, Anam people would simply relocate their villages inland away from the river Anambra, and that was usually sufficient to keep the Aboh warriors at bay. Onicha has a tradition that their town was built a few miles inland of the Niger for a similar reason. These traditions suggest that the Aboh were generally averse to traversing far from the reach of their canoes. Nsukka area would have held no attractions for them: the terrain was far from navigable rivers and was unsuited to their system.

With that said, however, I still think the Igala had something to do with Ossai names in Nsukka. I will share my opinion on how later.

Ossai is also a Bini sounding name. If you tell anyone your name is Ossai, you are most likely going to be asked if you are from Edo State. Fact!

This has to be stated emphatically. Ossai is NOT in any shape or form a Benin name or an Edoid name. Ossai is an Anioma/West-Niger Igboid name through and through. The reason why it sounds Benin is because of the Osa/Ossa there which sounds like the word used in the Edo-Anioma continuum as a shortened name for God. I have even seen Edo people try to argue that it is related to the Benin name Osayi which means "God creates" or something like that. Ọ̀sàyí is not even pronounced anything like Ọ̀sáị̀ (note the inflections.)

The name you people in Ukwuani know as Ossai is known in Enuani (Ika and Aniocha-Oshimili) as Ohai, and in Onitsha across the Niger as Urai. If it was related to Benin Ọ̀sàyí, the "s" would not have changed to "h" and "r" in Enuani and Onitsha respectively, since Enuani and Onitsha don't call God Oha or Ura, but call him Osa/Ose (maintaining the "s" as in Benin). Basic linguistics.

If you are observant, you may have noticed that where Ukwuani uses "s", Enuani would use "h" and Onitsha would use "r". Where Ukwuani says "Osa" (public), an Aniocha man would say "oha" and an Onitsha man would say "ora". Where Ukwuani says "isu" (face), Aniocha says "ihu" and Onitsha says "iru".

This regular sound changes (s, h, r) yielded Ossai in Ukwuani, Ohai in Enuani and Urai in Onitsha. All three refer to the same thing, i.e., a deity which was associated with child-bearing and fertility. This is an Anioma concept through and through and has nothing to do with Benin.

And about Nsukka and Ossai: So, yea, even though I doubt that Aboh brought the name directly to Nsukka, I am still of the opinion that it ultimately diffused indirectly from Aboh and environs. The name Ochai is common among the Igala, and it could have easily been brought to them by the Aboh. The Igala who had no “s” in their phonology, switched the s-sound in Ossai with a “ch”. From the Igala the name could have been passed into the Nsukka zone. Nsukka people appear to have changed a couple of ch-sounds in Igala to s-sounds. For example the Igala name/title Achadu which became Asadu in Nsukka.

Long story short, while I agree with the plausibility of Ossai in Nsukka ultimately coming from the Aboh area, I don’t agree that Aboh people settled in any significant number in Nsukka: the name probably diffused there through the Igala area who adopted it from Aboh traders.

You have to study the history of the Aboh people very well to understand some of these things. The Aboh people were very dispersed because of the distant trading nature of Aboh in those times. You also have to understand that those times are not like now when people get stuck to their ancestral homes. During those period anywhere you find yourself that you are accepted becomes home. For example, there is a family called Enebeli in Effurun, the Urhobo axis of Delta State(cc Efewestern). This family are completely assimilated in Uvwie land and have family compound and street there which I have seen with my very eyes. Recently, I was told they are originally from Aboh although not confirmed. But Enebeli is a strong Ndokwa/Ukwuani name like Ossai.

There’s nothing strange here. Aboh’s influence in the Isoko-Urhobo area is well-acknowledged. The ivie of Abraka and a number of other places in that axis were confirmed in office by the Obi of Aboh. The question is whether there’s a similar acknowledgment for the Nsukka zone. And the answer is no.

My dad told me a story of how his father took him and his brothers to the East of the Niger to find some of their "lost" family members in the 50s. These family members had lived away from Aboh for many many decades, most of them(adults) were not born in Aboh and had never been to Aboh. His mission was to encourage them to come back home and expand the family. There are many people of Aboh ancestry like them all over the place that when you see any trace of Ndokwa/Ukwuani culture anywhere distant from the Ndokwa axis, your first suspicion should always be Aboh!
Cc Fejoku, Igboid

I’d like to know where in the East your dad meant. If it turns out to be Nsugbe, Aguleri, Onitsha, Atani, Ossomala, Oguta, or even slightly inland places like Nnewi, Oraifite, Ihiala and Uli, which had navigable waterways that led down to the Niger and which have references to Aboh or Olu traders and mercenary fighters in their midst then there’s nothing surprising there. If however it turns out to be Amagunze or Lokpanta or Nsukka, then that would be quite a reveal.

Bukola94:
go and do proper research, he is a descent of Zulu Qarnain,not Gambari of Ilorin. Gambari has never been an Oba or Emir in the history of Ilorin, yes there is chief Ajikobi&chief Gambari,which is just a mere title , dont let the word Gambari confuse or dont let them use it to lie to u. Go figure out facts ,people that are close to 90yrs or plus should help, don't base it on Google or men or women in their 60s or plus,they may not know accurate raw facts. Peace upon U

He (or she) will not listen to you. They see the name 'Gambari' and fly to the conclusion that he must be of Hausa descent. No other evidence whatsoever. Names are not always a pointer to origins. Other circumstances may contribute to the names someone ends up bearing. There are Nigerians whose names are Oyibo, but are not of European descent.

Aboh was not known for distant INLAND expeditions. Generally, places far out of the reach of their canoes were beyond the pale of their activities.

Thus their activities were for the most part restricted to the Niger and its tributaries. Aguleri, Nsugbe and Anam which are riverine, and actively involved with Aboh do not bear Ossai, but somehow the name crops up in very significant numbers in Nsukka axis far in the hinterland where there is not the slightest sliver of Aboh traditions. No, you cannot explain that by invoking Aboh colonisation. Some other explanation has to be sought.

Stoplying:
Hey dummy pants, did you ask yourself if you guys were not doing something stupid ?
If there is no eyewitness written document which you can quote in the matter, then perhaps there is no actual answer to the question.
You guys are only going to do some intellectual masturbation by constantly speculating based on your own biases and impressions and emotions and huge lack of knowledge.

You sound like a bellend. A methodology for deriving historical data from oral tradition has been developed since the 1970s by historians like Jan Vansina. Add to that the work of historical linguists like Christopher Ehret, it is now possible to use a combinations of traditions, ethnography and information gleaned from language to reconstruct the history of preliterate people. You sound like a dead white man from the 1700s when you imply only eyewitness written document are valid as historical records.

Also what exactly do you mean by "origins of Aboh and Ndoni" ? You act as if time started at a given date and the "Aboh and Ndoni" were somewhere in that date and then moved to where they are today. You don't actually understand time very well.

"Igbo origin" as if Igbo was has been in existence since the beginning of the earth.
By looking at Precolonial documents you can look for the first mention of Igbo and the first mention of "Aboh and Ndoni". The fact Igbo exists today doesn't imply it existed 400 years ago nor that its form has always been what you concieve it to be today.

Everything in this section is off-tangential nonsense, not remotely worthy of a response. You seem to be making an effort to sound intelligent and failing.

Stoplying:
Actual history.
Map published in 1747.
Author: Emanuel Bowen.

https://uniquemaps.eu/products/rare-old-map-of-africa-1747-by-emanuel-bowen-pre-colonial-handcoloured-slave-trade-negroland-ethiopia-barbary-nubia

You guys do too much blabla, our part of the earth has been recieving literate visitors since the 1400's, those visitors wrote documents which describe our region and which we can access today. So why not look at those documents? Why doing everything but looking at historical documents while discussing history?
Why are you guys not smarter than children ?

Hey, Smarty pants, which 1400s literate visitor wrote about the origins of Aboh and Ndoni?

clefstone:
This is why I mentioned you

The screenshot comes from the work of Dr Henderson, which I have actually used to argue here before. I was just a little surprised to be invited to read something that was already well known to me and which I have used in debates before. Lol.

Anyway, I actually stand by what I said about administrative lines. And the screenshot you mentioned me in is not even in contrast with what I said. If anything, it supports it. Onitsha would have still been non-Igbo today if it was in the Midwest, then Bendel, then Delta. All of Onitsha's Ezechime brothers are in Delta State, after all. Administrative lines are the reasons why it eventually got involved in the pan-Igbo project, while Umuezechime in Delta have largely not gotten involved in the pan-Igbo project. If by some weird stroke Aboh had found itself in the Eastern Region and later maybe in Anambra or Imo, it too would have eventually found itself participating in the pan-Igbo project. I completely stand by what I said there. Oguta in Imo State is another example I can cite here. Linguistically speaking, Oguta is Ukwuani. Listen to the dialect - clearly Ukwuani. If it was in Delta, the way they self-identify today would have been very different. But just like Onitsha, they passed through a phase where they stood against the growing Igbo ethnogenesis, until they eventually also became full participants in it.

And just in case this is not widely known yet, Onitsha and Oguta people are NOT the only people in the East who used "ndị Igbo" in the past to describe other people but would not use the same term to describe themselves. People who haven't studied Igbo history do not know how widespread this practice was in the Southeast, even down to the 1940s. “Ndị Igbo" was widely used to mean "other people except for us". A Dutch historian Dmitri van Beerselaar recently even did a doctoral thesis on the Igbo where this topic was discussed in some detail. One of the architects of Igbo pan-ethnicity, B O N Eluwa, wrote how he and other ethnonationalists were travelling around the Eastern Region even into the 1940s sensitising people about a pan-Igbo ethnic consciousness.

[Just as an addendum, there is something I find interesting about Onitsha's "non-Igboness" in the past. There were a group of people who lived along the river bank of Onitsha who claimed Igala ancestry and were there before the main Onitsha people arrived from Aniocha or Benin (depending on which traditions you believe) . These people of putative Igala ancestry were in charge of certain rituals in Onitsha. Now during some of these rituals, the main Onitsha people were not allowed to be present. So before the rituals, Onitsha people would be asked to leave. The Igala-descent ritual performers would say “Igbo mabo, Igbo mabo“, which means “Igbos run away“.

The same Onitsha people who termed their hinterland neighbours as "ndị Igbo" were themselves called "Igbo" by Igala-descent people living by the waterside. And that was how the word Igbo was being tossed around. Ogidi will call all their neighbours except themselves "ndị Igbo". Nkwele will call all their neighbours including Ogidi "ndị Igbo". Nsugbe will call everybody including Ogidi and Nkwele "ndị Igbo".]

clefstone:
I want you, redbonesmith, bigfrancis21 and others to read the below. I have avoided sharing this on Nairaland because of the sensitive issues it contains. Who knows, maybe it's already here

https://amightytree.org/the-slave-trade-and-long-lasting-ethnic-stereotypes/

Not exactly sure why I was mentioned here.

Fejoku:
I'm temted to say something about these Igbo groups afflicted with the centrifugal pull but I'll just hold myself .

There's absolutely no reason to get worked up and verbally abusive over it. It is good as you hold yourself. I tell Southeasterners to just look inwards and focus on themselves.

Fejoku:
Aboh man of the 20/21st century not having the Igbo consciousness is simply because of how the British chose to administer Igboland.
The whole of Ukwuani territory was placed under Warri Division. This is what pushed your people towards Warri more than how the Enuani people will gravitate towards the same place.
You were never grouped together with the larger part of Igboland which if it was to be so would have seen you flow with it easily. As you would have observed, your brothers in Ogbaru and Oguta are not complaining.
At present, Asaba is pulling you into the Igbo consciousness even if it is at a slow pace.
Not that it matters to me though. Everyone is free to choose whatever he wants for himself.

There's a lot of truth here though. Who is Igbo today and who is not has a lot to do with administrative lines that were drawn in the 20th century.

It should never be forgotten that the idea of an Igbo ethnicity is itself fairly recent. As late as the 1940s, Igbo ethnogenesis was still an ongoing project. Acceptance to participate in that project had a lot to do with 20th century administrative and geopolitical realities.

There is this strong tendency for people in Anioma to underline multiethnic heritage as the reason why they can't be Igbo. But multiethnic heritage equally applies to many people in the Southeast, where many villages can be found claiming Igala, Benin, Ibibio, Ijaw, Idoma etc origins. There's even some village-units with Nupe backgrounds in the Enugu-Ezike axis. The linguistic tie is practically the only unifier.

If Ngwa had been carved into Rivers State, best believe they will not be Igbo today. If Abiriba had been carved into Cross River State, they will likely not be Igbo today.

But make we leave this matter. There are people who fall within the Igbo(id) linguistic continuum who are not going to come under the Igbo pan-ethnic umbrella anytime soon. It is what it is. Everyone should be able to live with that.

ariesbull:
With the banning of some aspect of Yoruba culture y the Emir. It is alleged that the culture fetish ....and when Soyinka wanted to speak he was called clout chaser

The big question , considering that the city of Ilorin has Emir not Oba ,can we say that Ilorin isn't Yoruba land


Let's have this conversation

The way Nigerians describe ethnicity is very weird. The Nigerian idea of ethnic identity does not recognise assimilation. This is why an Ilorin man who is Yoruba for all intent and purpose will be arguing that he is not Yoruba, based on some Fulani or Hausa or Nupe ancestry from 200 years ago that no longer has any bearing on his life in 2023.

Ilorin is a Yoruba town. The major fraction are indigenous Yorùbá of Oyo extraction. The smaller but politically prominent fraction are assimilated Yorubas of Hausa, Fulani and Nupe extraction.

When people say Ilorin has an emir and not an ọba, the question I usually ask them is: do Ilorin people actually call their ruler 'emir' when they are not speaking English?

The answer I get is no. When Ilorin people talk about their ruler in their native language, what they call him is ọba.

'Emir' was introduced into our national discourse by the British. Even the emirs of Northern Nigeria are called sarki, and only called emir when English is being spoken. The Emir of Kano and the Emir of Katsina, are Sarkin Kano and Sarkin Katsina, respectively.

The Emir of Ilorin is Ọba Ilorin. Don't take my word for it, go and talk to an old non-English speaking Ilorin indigene.

optionalY09:
We will appeal to all South West Oba to declare it illegal to build mosques in SW region

How is this logical to you? The population of Yorubas in the SW who are Muslim may be as high as 50% of the population or at least close. Do you know how many Obas are themselves Muslims? They should proscribe their own religion?

Interesting.

Sizwezi:
Samuk and his brothers come, see and hear what Chief, Epa, Odionwere, has to say about Eze Chima that you always twist to Eze Ikhime. 😂

Cc Redbonesmith

I just finished watching a lengthy video where Imasuen Awowie Izoduwa was arguing for a Benin origin for Ezechime.

It's interesting that I'm being tagged to see this on the same day. I have always said that the elders know the truth.

laiperi:
Anyone trying to inform Redbonesmith with evidence is wasting his time. The guy does not even believe his own evidence:



He has been in America for a long time. Yet, he doesn't understand that when someone calls a Press Conference to announce he is not running, it means he has dropped his exploratory possiblity as a candidate.

I just ignored him until now, asking for evidence that he does not understand again.

Lmao. Apparently, you're still smarting from that little debate where you couldn't substantiate what you were saying, even after being invited to do so.

I always bow to superior argument. I am not given to arguing blindly.

I actually went back after this Sulu-Gambari debate to look at the sources, and the sources are unanimous that Sulu Gambari is descended from Alimi through Abdusalami. I have seen the charts of the family tree to back it up and everything. If you're being honest with yourself, you'll also admit that the screenshot your counterpart shared said nothing about the Ilorin emirship passing to a Hausa lineage. The fact that a Balogun (who was even of a Yoruba, rather than a Hausa pedigree) was the de facto ruler at a point doesn't mean the House of Alimi lost the emirship. All it means is that the emirship at that time was a nominal position with no real power. Kind of like the kingship of France under Cardinal Richelieu.

chrisxxx:
From your answer you have given a clean credence to my argument. Chimpanzees and Apes do not belong to the same class although they may look alike. This also applies to iron (although you said metal perhaps you lack peripheral knowledge of chemistry as good is also a metal) and gold. They are both metal but class apart.
I believe this settles it. Igbos and Ikwerres are not same people.

Wàhálà dey. My analogies went completely over your head. Chimpanzees are apes. Your biology is weak. I didn't mention iron in my example. I said metal. I know what I said. Again, the analogies went completely over your head.

I'll leave this question of Ikwerre vs Igbo here, because being an old timer here, I have grown very tired of the never-ending back and forth.

chrisxxx:
Let me submit this. Would you accept to be Ikwerre if Ikwerres had 5 states and Igbos just 4 LGAs?

If there are two million chimpanzees in the world and only 200 apes, will the apes accept to all be called chimpanzees?

If I have 30 bars of gold and just three bars of metal, can I just call my bars of metal all gold?

This is what your question sounds like to me.

Christistruth03:
Alimi's descendants have long being removed

Emir Gambari is a Hausa man!

Gambari means Hausa in Yoruba and Ilorins know how the the Hausas took over

,Alimi was Fulani

The Screenshot was a British Officer admitting that the Balogun Alabama was the Ruler of Ilorin


Emir Momoh had already been defeated by the Yoruba Chiefs lead by Balogun Alanamu and he had killed himself by Burning down his Palace over himself

It was Balogun Alanamu the British fought and took Ilorin from he was banished to Jebba by them

At the very least, bring a screenshot that supports what you're saying na. This screenshot you keep bringing is not saying anything about a Hausa take-over. That Balogun Alanamu was the defacto leader doesn't mean the emirship had left the House of Alimi. All that your screenshot is saying is that the Emir was a puppet ruler, but Emir he still was! At the risk of repeating myself, this wasn't the first time in history that one man held the title in name and someone else ran the show.

The Balogun Alanamu was of Yoruba heritage, anyways, so I fail to see how emphasising on the fact that he was defacto ruler at the time of the British incursions helps your argument of an Hausa take-over.

All academic sources are unanimous that Sulu-Gambari is descended from Abdusalami, son of Alimi.

Christistruth03:
The Balogun Hausa did a Coup against the Fulani and took Over Ilorin Throne after the Hausas noticed that almost all the Slaves passing through Ilorin from the Northern Jihad Areason the Slave Route to the Lagos Coast were Hausas and the Hausas in Ilorin became Furious and had a big fight with the Fulani in Ilorin

Their complaint was if they were the ones fighting a Jihad how come it was Hausas being Sold and hardly any Fulani

Emir Sulu Gambari descended from the Balogun Hausa

That was when the Yorubas started using the Proverb "Gambari pa Fulani Ko si ejo n'be"

Which means if the Hausas and the Fulani have decided to kill themselves (at Ilorin)

It is none of our Business


By the time the British arrived the Balogun Yoruba Alanamu had Checkmated everyone and was the Ruler of Ilorin

It was the Balogun Yoruba that the British fought in Ilorin and reinstated the already deposed Emir because of Pressure from the Northern Emirs


The Referendum on Kwara which was agreed with the British before independence was granted was supposed to have held at the same time as the Midwest Referendum But Balewa and Azikiwe never carried it out be together with the Referendum for the Eastern Region and Northern Region Minorities

The screenshot attached does not support the idea of a dynastic change. There is nothing unique in history about the military class (such as the Balogun were) gaining more power than the kings and making the kings their puppets. It happened in Japan, for instance, under the shoguns.

But there is nowhere in oral or written history where it is stated that the Hausa Baloguns overthrew the descendants of Alimi and took the throne.

All documents maintain that the throne of Ilorin was rotated between the descendants of the two sons of Alimi: Abdusalami and Shitta. Since 1915, however Abdusalami's descendants have dominated the succession. Sulu-Gambari is a descendant of Abudsalami, son of Alimi.

The question remains, however, as to how the name Gambari came about. It might probably point to a Hausa maternal connection. But the line of Alimi has remained unbroken to this day.

Christistruth03:
By the way the Emir of Ilorin is Hausa and not Fulani

Are you saying Sulu-Gambari is not a direct descendant of Alimi? When did the dynasty change? Or are you just assuming he is Hausa because of the 'Gambari' in his name?

Is this priestess from Ilorin? If she isn't, then it sounds to me like she was looking for trouble. A priest of Onicha in Umunede will not leave his community to go and celebrate Onicha in Igbuzo.

lawani:
But that is what they have been doing with Ifa in Brazil, Cuba and recently the USA, it is the national theology of Cuba, in Brazil, they are most proficient, search online and you see Harvard and other universities having Ifa journals, it only remains to be issuing formal degrees in conventional universities and that will start happening very soon as it becomes a sort of chartered profession

Ifa is spreading to the Americas as a religion. The papers written on Ifa are religious papers. The same way theologians write paper about theology and publish them in theology journals. They are not scientific papers in the way a physics paper is.

Most papers on Ifa focus on its literary value as poetry or on its binary method. The Bible contains rich literary passages and chapters of great philosophical value, but no one is making the argument that the Bible or Christianity is a science. Except for nutters.

Point me to one peer-reviewed paper that explains how ifa can be used to predict anything. The paper must have a methodology, and I should be able to get palm nuts or cowries, follow the methodology and get statistically significant results.

Probz:
Horoscope reading? Are you serious?

Leave am. 😂

Oga Lawani, until the people practising all these arts begin to publish their methodologies and results in papers and journals for people to follow their processes. And until people around the world have read their methodologies and been able to independently replicate the results many times over and proven that statistically they work, these things remain outside the domain of science, no matter how you choose to see them.

That's what separates science from magic. If a scientist in Spain does ABC in the lab and gets XYZ result. He should be able to publish his methodology and findings. And other scientists in Japan, Australia, Sweden, Argentina, Mexico, South Africa...all around the world...should be able to follow the methodology and arrive at the same results. That's how science works.

Horoscope readings that are wrong more than half the time is what you're calling a science. Lmao.

lawani:
Anything done with methodology that can be taught other people is using the scientific method. Astrology, numerology, ouija board reading, horoscope reading, Ifa and etc

Lol. Like I said, no actual scientist worth his salt will call these things science. None. These things are no different from the ancient Chinese using hot metals to make cracks on tortoise shells and trying to read the will of the ancestors from the burn cracks.

lawani:
For example, if you cast Ifa to ask what is this person thinking?, what is best for me to do?. What will happen to the world in 2030?, what is the prospect of this marriage? etc etc, you don't have to read it yourself, someone else who is proficient in Ifa can come and read it, other people can also offer perspectives etc etc. That is scientific theism. Totally different from Christianity and Islam.

Oh. There's nothing scienitfic about this sort of thing, sir. It's the same age-old clairvoyance, divination and fortune telling that is found in every culture since the beginning of human history. Only 'liberal arts' people who use the word 'science' very loosely will call this science. "Science" is a very different thing.

If whatever you are doing does not have a methodology which is clearly explainable and which can be replicated with the same results by other people, you're not doing science.

What exactly does "Scientific theology" mean? Isn't that term even paradoxical?

Ologbo147:
yes oko without the ro means this man, this person, this human but it is hardly ever used for a woman. You can have examples of Oko, Ya vie wmin ni me. This man go and bring that stuff for me and so on in daily conversations and even movies

Okay. Thank you.

Dancebreaker:
Okoro is an ancient Benin name.

Okoro was originally a gentleman but over time became used for Prince. Oba's male children are called Okoro. Benin Crown Prince is called Okoro n'Okhua. He's only called Edaiken upon maturity when he moves to Edaiken Palace at Uselu.

I know at least 20 Benin families with surname Okoro.

Question: Does 'oko' or 'oke' mean 'male' in any Edoid language?

AutomaticMotors:
My Edo brothers samuk Evboesi sotall don't waste your time answering that boy called redbonesmith, notice after he lost the argument with so much shame he came at you'all like a pained python with his leprous Igboid moniker?

This boy Redbonesmith has been cosplaying as igbo on this nairaland for years but he is just a confused Enuani boy from delta state. Even when most Anioma people in Delta north align accordingly with their Edo ancestry this particular confused one thinks he is more Igbo than the actual 'Iboes' even a full Igbo man called him out earlier in this thread for being "An Igbo WannaBe" .... In my life I have never seen such a chronic low sense of self worth and esteem ...it is sad and hilarious at the same time.

Redbonesmith keep cosplaying as igbo but know one thing "You will never be Accepted" Ever"

Dey whine jesus no worry your eye go clear


Cc @Stoplying come and peruse this thread

You are such a butt-hurt patch of slime and a low IQ vermin to boot.😂 Even when I am not interested in looking your way, you'll be looking for my attention. Three mentions, all from YOU. It must be really eating away at your spirit that I do not and will never identify as Edo, which is why you take every opportunity to call me a wannabe. That pain you feel will kill you. 😂

Please, take your motor park self out of my way, let me see road to engage with your more intelligent brothers.

alfarouq:
Seeing as you systematically try to turn a topic of similarity between major tribes in Nigeria to an Islam and Muslim bashing thread，t is either you are at best an ignorant person or at worst an Islam hater who ignorantly thinks he can increase his appeal with whichever God you believe in by throwing around false claims about Islam.

Nothing is celebrated and encouraged in Islam as much as scholarship. In fact， the first verse that was revealed to the prophet PBUH is read， Also there is a special regard for scholsrship and scholars in Islam than amy other group of people.

The only reason muslims of today seems backward in terms of advancement is becaise they are straying away from the path Islam laid which is the path of scholarship and decided to follow their whims and the ways of the people of the world. This is largely because they have embraced so much comfort because of excessive wealth from oil or are engaged in infighthing there by having little time for self development.


Islam and Muslims gave the world Algebra， the foundation of Science， gave Algorithm （ computation） gave how epidemics are managed and how diseases are managed （check cannon of medicine. Developed surgical procedures that was used and adopted by the world for more than 500 years.

Here in Nigeria， before some peoples parents learn to read， Muslims have been reading and writing，have structured system of governments that span as far as Sudan, developed indigenous building and military, clothing industries technologies all thanks to Islam.

The contributions of Islam and Muslims to science and technology is not exhaustible here ， you can research and read more on it if you truly care to know.


When people like Galileo Galilee and Leanardo Da vinci are been persecuted by the Church for heresy， Ibn Haytham， Ibn Khaldun and Ibn Senna were celebrated in the Muslim world.

I think it is telling that we have to travel back nearly a thousand years to find a time when Islam was compatible with progress.