VEHINTOLAR:
They are Shua-Arab but not Fulani as you put @op.

Tuaregs, actually. From Niger and Mali.

Couldntfigurean:


Domot (door mouth) from the Igbo word “onu uzo"

This is contestable. Domot means the whole house and not the entrance or onu ụzọ. One can make the argument that the part came to mean the whole, but in this case I think there are far better explanations for Domot in European languages. The Latin word for house is domus. The so-called Romance languages (including Portuguese which had an influence on the early development of pidgin) all developed from Latin and probably contained a domus-related word for house in its early stages before it was replaced by other words like casa. But in some Italian dialects house is still domo or domos. And I heard domos is still used in Portuguese and Spanish to refer to big/grand houses.

Anyways, in the time of the slave trade most educated people in Europe including the Portuguese still spoke Latin, and they likely brought with them to Africa a domus-like word that evolved to domot.

Note also that English words relating to the house or home, like domain, domicile and even domestic all evolved from this Latin word, domus. That's where domot came from as well. Not door mouth.

SosoKairanuli:


Tey is Ijaw, not Igbo. Tey (te) is an actual grammatical feature in the Ijaw language that's used to talk about the passage of time. E.g. “Sote” in the middle of a sentence functions like “until” and at the end of the sentence denotes something finishing. (Sote = god/sky/world ends).

E don tey (pidgin) = It has been a long time.
O tego/ O teela (Igbo) = it has been a long time

The pidgin word "tey" and the doubling "tey-tey" has a meaning that is very consistent with the Igbo "tee", ị.e., denoting length of time. In addition, it also denotes length of distance in Igbo, but this second meaning seems not to have been carried over into pidgin.

This "sotey" looks like an entirely different word, carrying a different meaning, from just "tey".

Does anyone know how Uriel knew TTT was married? Did she know him before they got in the house?

mediocre:


She said she’s 35

Which means she was 29 the first time she was on the show in 2017? Nah, I'm not buying it. 2017 Uriel was definitely over 30.

It doesn’t take much to offend conservative and even moderate Muslims. Their sensitivity is more fragile than a fabregé egg. Nigerians should know that by now.

If it was black people who have the technological advantage that white people have enjoyed for the last 5-6 centuries, I don’t think they would have behaved any better than white people have behaved, to be honest. There are reasons why I suspect they may have even behaved a lot worse.

Efewestern:


* Why was Aboh revered so much?

For Aboh, their rise to power was about location, location, location. Aboh is situated at the head of the Niger Delta. It is very strategically placed to control the Niger routes to Bonny and Kalabari, Nembe-Brass and even Itsekiri. Upriver, it had access to markets at Oguta, Ossomala, Asaba, Aguleri and Idah. As a result, Aboh was in a position to become the most important middlemen in the trade between the Niger Delta and the hinterland. Building on these, its people were able to amass wealth and power.

* Was the Obiship stool in Aboh a direct offshoot of Bini like that of Itsekiri ?

Aboh people definitely believe unwaveringly that their kingship is a direct offshoot of Benin (through Ozolua), and this is the information that they have given ethnographers and anthropologists who have recorded their traditions since the 1800s.

I am personally skeptical about most claims of Benin origin. Scholars of oral tradition have shown that it is quite common for people to create genealogies linking them to nearby or even distant centres of high culture and power, especially one that has influenced them profoundly, like the Benin influenced all around them.

The founders of Aboh monarchy definitely came from areas to the west of the Ukwuani-Aboh area and found an indigenous population (the Akarai/Akiri/Akili) when they arrived. But I find it plausible that they may have come from Benin-influenced places in the Ika-Aniocha corridor, rather than directly from Benin. The royal section of Aboh (i.e., the "Benin” immigrants) call themselves Umudei. Dei is still used in Agbor to address the Obi and nwadei is still used widely in the Ika-Aniocha sector to mean prince. The term for princess in Aboh, which is Akpe also has ‘cognates’ in places along Ika-Aniocha. The geographical spread of these terminologies (dei, nwadei and akpe) is restricted and doesn’t include Benin. Agbor actually has a tradition that the founder of Aboh was an Agbor prince.

Anyway, an Ika-Aniocha origins for the Umudei in Aboh is my opinion, and no one should feel inclined to accept it.

* Was Aboh considered an extension of Bini?

This will depend on what you mean by extension. I have not seen anything in the traditions and history that suggest that Aboh was a vassal of the Benin empire in any practical sense. The Obi operated as a full-fledged sovereign ruler, even carving out his own little ‘empire’ along the banks of the Niger. However, the Oba of Benin was viewed as some sort of elder brother. For example, both Aboh and Benin traditions suggest that succession disputes in Aboh were referred to the Oba for settlement.

Efewestern:


From the references, Obi of Aboh never confirmed into office any Urhobo king and the Ovie of Abraka only needed external recognition or bragging rights that was why he went to Obi of Aboh. Obviously, Aboh kingdom was far more influential than Abraka kingdom.

Here was your initial submission.

So it’s now a matter of semantics. It’s alright. Confirmation or external recognition for bragging rights, some ivie had to go to Aboh upon ascending the throne for whatever reason. That is the crux of my submission. I wasn’t trying to project some Aboh imperium on Urhobo and Isoko. I actually stated that the journey was made because of the convenience of proximity than anything else.

Also note that Bradbury spoke of some ivie “obtaining their titles” from the Obi. This suggests that this goes beyond mere recognition for some at least of the ivie that made that trip.

The documents you submitted still didn't validate your initial submissions. It only confirmed what I said about Urhobo chiefs mostly going to Bini. The popular EMA dance of the Urhobo people was as a result of the frequent visitation to the Oba palace. You can easily knot together the Bini-Urhobo validation taste but not Obi of Aboh. He has zero influence anywhere in Urhobo land.

Now you’re making it sound like I said all or most Urhobo ivie went to Aboh. Of course I knew most went to Benin.

Efewestern:


Cite historical documents. Don't just say words, give valid references.

I'm very vast with history. There's no Urhobo/Isoko community that obtained confirmation from any Aboh king. Even receiving blessings from the Oba of Bini was mostly done by chiefs. Urhobo communities were fully autonomous.

The Abraka you cited is a border town to Aka (Bini), that's where it got its name from. Infact, Abraka was involved with a number of clashes with Bini. Why would Abraka, a town that is closer to Bini seek confirmation from an unrelated and faraway king from Aboh? Obi of Aboh has no single influence on any Urhobo clan. The only external king revered was/is the Oba of Bini.

clefstone gave you an example of how a name of Ndokwa/Ukwuani origin got into Uvwie, the next you could do is say Aboh had influence on Urhobo terrain. How? When?

Like I already said, those are not my words. Those were the words of historians and ethnographers who actually did work in the area. First screenshot, quote is from Professor Alagoa, and in the references he cited that the information was obtained in colonial times from the Abraka people themselves.

Screenshot Two is from Bradbury. In the 1950s when Bradbury was doing his research in the area, the practice was apparently still current.

I actually have more source materials in hard copy form but I don't have my books with me.

I am not making anything up. What I said is supported by historical literature. It is left for you to argue with the literature, not me. Also, Abraka is not a border town to Benin and is not closer to Benin than to Aboh.

Efewestern:


Ovie of Abraka confirmed in office by the Obi of Aboh

This is actually stated and recorded in history texts, including the works of renowned Isoko and Urhobo historians like the late Professor Obaro Ikime. The texts state that because Benin was quite far, it became fashionable for the Ovie of Abraka and some other ivie in that axis to obtain their confirmation from the Obi of Aboh whose domain was closer. I didn’t make it up. Look at your own historical records.

clefstone:
I have not asserted here that Aboh colonized Nsukka, I only made the assertion that Aboh people who settled in Nsukka most likely took the Surname Ossai to that axis.

That's the problem. There is a total absence of traditions of familiarity with Aboh in Nsukka area. Given the fact that Aboh Kingdom isn't that ancient (was probably established no earlier than the late 15th/16th century) this absence of traditions cannot be explained away by postulating that Aboh-Nsukka interactions are so ancient that they have been forgotten; I would expect to hear echoes of Aboh presence. There are zero echoes and that's quite telling. Meanwhile there are echoes in Ossomala, in Nnewi, in Oraifite, in Aguleri, etc. Why nothing from Nsukka which uses the name Ossai much much much more than the aforementioned places? It's not adding up.

You are very right when you wrote that Aboh was not known for distant inland expeditions. However, Aboh people were known to have a strong trade and social relationship with the Igalas. It is on record that the Obi of Aboh's son went to Idah to settle a dispute that arose relating to Aboh people in Igalaland in the 19th century. What this means is that Aboh people were settled in Igala at that time. The opposite is also the case as we have people of Igala ancestry who have lived in Aboh for more than hundred years, and are now fully Aboh people(I personally know some).

Some of these Aboh people must have found their way to Nsukka from Igala and took the name Ossai there. Infact, I was amazed once when a friend told me he father's place use to phrase "m'biaka" to say "I am coming" which is exactly what we say in Aboh.

The problem with this theory of Aboh getting into Nsukka via Igala is that it fails to take cognizance of the fact that the different groups who dominated trade on the Niger had trade zones that they guarded fiercely and wouldn't let their competitors gain access to. While the Igala and the Aboh were without a doubt in intensive commercial, political and economic contacts, they would not have in their heyday given Aboh access to their trade routes through the Nsukka area. And even if that access was granted, would the water-based Aboh have even found it attractive? In times of conflict with the Aboh, Anam people would simply relocate their villages inland away from the river Anambra, and that was usually sufficient to keep the Aboh warriors at bay. Onicha has a tradition that their town was built a few miles inland of the Niger for a similar reason. These traditions suggest that the Aboh were generally averse to traversing far from the reach of their canoes. Nsukka area would have held no attractions for them: the terrain was far from navigable rivers and was unsuited to their system.

With that said, however, I still think the Igala had something to do with Ossai names in Nsukka. I will share my opinion on how later.

Ossai is also a Bini sounding name. If you tell anyone your name is Ossai, you are most likely going to be asked if you are from Edo State. Fact!

This has to be stated emphatically. Ossai is NOT in any shape or form a Benin name or an Edoid name. Ossai is an Anioma/West-Niger Igboid name through and through. The reason why it sounds Benin is because of the Osa/Ossa there which sounds like the word used in the Edo-Anioma continuum as a shortened name for God. I have even seen Edo people try to argue that it is related to the Benin name Osayi which means "God creates" or something like that. Ọ̀sàyí is not even pronounced anything like Ọ̀sáị̀ (note the inflections.)

The name you people in Ukwuani know as Ossai is known in Enuani (Ika and Aniocha-Oshimili) as Ohai, and in Onitsha across the Niger as Urai. If it was related to Benin Ọ̀sàyí, the "s" would not have changed to "h" and "r" in Enuani and Onitsha respectively, since Enuani and Onitsha don't call God Oha or Ura, but call him Osa/Ose (maintaining the "s" as in Benin). Basic linguistics.

If you are observant, you may have noticed that where Ukwuani uses "s", Enuani would use "h" and Onitsha would use "r". Where Ukwuani says "Osa" (public), an Aniocha man would say "oha" and an Onitsha man would say "ora". Where Ukwuani says "isu" (face), Aniocha says "ihu" and Onitsha says "iru".

This regular sound changes (s, h, r) yielded Ossai in Ukwuani, Ohai in Enuani and Urai in Onitsha. All three refer to the same thing, i.e., a deity which was associated with child-bearing and fertility. This is an Anioma concept through and through and has nothing to do with Benin.

And about Nsukka and Ossai: So, yea, even though I doubt that Aboh brought the name directly to Nsukka, I am still of the opinion that it ultimately diffused indirectly from Aboh and environs. The name Ochai is common among the Igala, and it could have easily been brought to them by the Aboh. The Igala who had no “s” in their phonology, switched the s-sound in Ossai with a “ch”. From the Igala the name could have been passed into the Nsukka zone. Nsukka people appear to have changed a couple of ch-sounds in Igala to s-sounds. For example the Igala name/title Achadu which became Asadu in Nsukka.

Long story short, while I agree with the plausibility of Ossai in Nsukka ultimately coming from the Aboh area, I don’t agree that Aboh people settled in any significant number in Nsukka: the name probably diffused there through the Igala area who adopted it from Aboh traders.

You have to study the history of the Aboh people very well to understand some of these things. The Aboh people were very dispersed because of the distant trading nature of Aboh in those times. You also have to understand that those times are not like now when people get stuck to their ancestral homes. During those period anywhere you find yourself that you are accepted becomes home. For example, there is a family called Enebeli in Effurun, the Urhobo axis of Delta State(cc Efewestern). This family are completely assimilated in Uvwie land and have family compound and street there which I have seen with my very eyes. Recently, I was told they are originally from Aboh although not confirmed. But Enebeli is a strong Ndokwa/Ukwuani name like Ossai.

There’s nothing strange here. Aboh’s influence in the Isoko-Urhobo area is well-acknowledged. The ivie of Abraka and a number of other places in that axis were confirmed in office by the Obi of Aboh. The question is whether there’s a similar acknowledgment for the Nsukka zone. And the answer is no.

My dad told me a story of how his father took him and his brothers to the East of the Niger to find some of their "lost" family members in the 50s. These family members had lived away from Aboh for many many decades, most of them(adults) were not born in Aboh and had never been to Aboh. His mission was to encourage them to come back home and expand the family. There are many people of Aboh ancestry like them all over the place that when you see any trace of Ndokwa/Ukwuani culture anywhere distant from the Ndokwa axis, your first suspicion should always be Aboh!
Cc Fejoku, Igboid

I’d like to know where in the East your dad meant. If it turns out to be Nsugbe, Aguleri, Onitsha, Atani, Ossomala, Oguta, or even slightly inland places like Nnewi, Oraifite, Ihiala and Uli, which had navigable waterways that led down to the Niger and which have references to Aboh or Olu traders and mercenary fighters in their midst then there’s nothing surprising there. If however it turns out to be Amagunze or Lokpanta or Nsukka, then that would be quite a reveal.

Bukola94:
go and do proper research, he is a descent of Zulu Qarnain,not Gambari of Ilorin. Gambari has never been an Oba or Emir in the history of Ilorin, yes there is chief Ajikobi&chief Gambari,which is just a mere title , dont let the word Gambari confuse or dont let them use it to lie to u. Go figure out facts ,people that are close to 90yrs or plus should help, don't base it on Google or men or women in their 60s or plus,they may not know accurate raw facts. Peace upon U

He (or she) will not listen to you. They see the name 'Gambari' and fly to the conclusion that he must be of Hausa descent. No other evidence whatsoever. Names are not always a pointer to origins. Other circumstances may contribute to the names someone ends up bearing. There are Nigerians whose names are Oyibo, but are not of European descent.

Aboh was not known for distant INLAND expeditions. Generally, places far out of the reach of their canoes were beyond the pale of their activities.

Thus their activities were for the most part restricted to the Niger and its tributaries. Aguleri, Nsugbe and Anam which are riverine, and actively involved with Aboh do not bear Ossai, but somehow the name crops up in very significant numbers in Nsukka axis far in the hinterland where there is not the slightest sliver of Aboh traditions. No, you cannot explain that by invoking Aboh colonisation. Some other explanation has to be sought.

Stoplying:

Hey dummy pants, did you ask yourself if you guys were not doing something stupid ?
If there is no eyewitness written document which you can quote in the matter, then perhaps there is no actual answer to the question.
You guys are only going to do some intellectual masturbation by constantly speculating based on your own biases and impressions and emotions and huge lack of knowledge.

You sound like a bellend. A methodology for deriving historical data from oral tradition has been developed since the 1970s by historians like Jan Vansina. Add to that the work of historical linguists like Christopher Ehret, it is now possible to use a combinations of traditions, ethnography and information gleaned from language to reconstruct the history of preliterate people. You sound like a dead white man from the 1700s when you imply only eyewitness written document are valid as historical records.

Also what exactly do you mean by "origins of Aboh and Ndoni" ? You act as if time started at a given date and the "Aboh and Ndoni" were somewhere in that date and then moved to where they are today. You don't actually understand time very well.

"Igbo origin" as if Igbo was has been in existence since the beginning of the earth.
By looking at Precolonial documents you can look for the first mention of Igbo and the first mention of "Aboh and Ndoni". The fact Igbo exists today doesn't imply it existed 400 years ago nor that its form has always been what you concieve it to be today.

Everything in this section is off-tangential nonsense, not remotely worthy of a response. You seem to be making an effort to sound intelligent and failing.

Stoplying:
Actual history.
Map published in 1747.
Author: Emanuel Bowen.

https://uniquemaps.eu/products/rare-old-map-of-africa-1747-by-emanuel-bowen-pre-colonial-handcoloured-slave-trade-negroland-ethiopia-barbary-nubia

You guys do too much blabla, our part of the earth has been recieving literate visitors since the 1400's, those visitors wrote documents which describe our region and which we can access today. So why not look at those documents? Why doing everything but looking at historical documents while discussing history?
Why are you guys not smarter than children ?

Hey, Smarty pants, which 1400s literate visitor wrote about the origins of Aboh and Ndoni?

clefstone:




This is why I mentioned you

The screenshot comes from the work of Dr Henderson, which I have actually used to argue here before. I was just a little surprised to be invited to read something that was already well known to me and which I have used in debates before. Lol.

Anyway, I actually stand by what I said about administrative lines. And the screenshot you mentioned me in is not even in contrast with what I said. If anything, it supports it. Onitsha would have still been non-Igbo today if it was in the Midwest, then Bendel, then Delta. All of Onitsha's Ezechime brothers are in Delta State, after all. Administrative lines are the reasons why it eventually got involved in the pan-Igbo project, while Umuezechime in Delta have largely not gotten involved in the pan-Igbo project. If by some weird stroke Aboh had found itself in the Eastern Region and later maybe in Anambra or Imo, it too would have eventually found itself participating in the pan-Igbo project. I completely stand by what I said there. Oguta in Imo State is another example I can cite here. Linguistically speaking, Oguta is Ukwuani. Listen to the dialect - clearly Ukwuani. If it was in Delta, the way they self-identify today would have been very different. But just like Onitsha, they passed through a phase where they stood against the growing Igbo ethnogenesis, until they eventually also became full participants in it.

And just in case this is not widely known yet, Onitsha and Oguta people are NOT the only people in the East who used "ndị Igbo" in the past to describe other people but would not use the same term to describe themselves. People who haven't studied Igbo history do not know how widespread this practice was in the Southeast, even down to the 1940s. “Ndị Igbo" was widely used to mean "other people except for us". A Dutch historian Dmitri van Beerselaar recently even did a doctoral thesis on the Igbo where this topic was discussed in some detail. One of the architects of Igbo pan-ethnicity, B O N Eluwa, wrote how he and other ethnonationalists were travelling around the Eastern Region even into the 1940s sensitising people about a pan-Igbo ethnic consciousness.

[Just as an addendum, there is something I find interesting about Onitsha's "non-Igboness" in the past. There were a group of people who lived along the river bank of Onitsha who claimed Igala ancestry and were there before the main Onitsha people arrived from Aniocha or Benin (depending on which traditions you believe) . These people of putative Igala ancestry were in charge of certain rituals in Onitsha. Now during some of these rituals, the main Onitsha people were not allowed to be present. So before the rituals, Onitsha people would be asked to leave. The Igala-descent ritual performers would say “Igbo mabo, Igbo mabo“, which means “Igbos run away“.

The same Onitsha people who termed their hinterland neighbours as "ndị Igbo" were themselves called "Igbo" by Igala-descent people living by the waterside. And that was how the word Igbo was being tossed around. Ogidi will call all their neighbours except themselves "ndị Igbo". Nkwele will call all their neighbours including Ogidi "ndị Igbo". Nsugbe will call everybody including Ogidi and Nkwele "ndị Igbo".]

clefstone:


I want you, redbonesmith, bigfrancis21 and others to read the below. I have avoided sharing this on Nairaland because of the sensitive issues it contains. Who knows, maybe it's already here

https://amightytree.org/the-slave-trade-and-long-lasting-ethnic-stereotypes/

Not exactly sure why I was mentioned here.

Fejoku:

I'm temted to say something about these Igbo groups afflicted with the centrifugal pull but I'll just hold myself .

There's absolutely no reason to get worked up and verbally abusive over it. It is good as you hold yourself. I tell Southeasterners to just look inwards and focus on themselves.

Fejoku:

Aboh man of the 20/21st century not having the Igbo consciousness is simply because of how the British chose to administer Igboland.
The whole of Ukwuani territory was placed under Warri Division. This is what pushed your people towards Warri more than how the Enuani people will gravitate towards the same place.
You were never grouped together with the larger part of Igboland which if it was to be so would have seen you flow with it easily. As you would have observed, your brothers in Ogbaru and Oguta are not complaining.
At present, Asaba is pulling you into the Igbo consciousness even if it is at a slow pace.
Not that it matters to me though. Everyone is free to choose whatever he wants for himself.

There's a lot of truth here though. Who is Igbo today and who is not has a lot to do with administrative lines that were drawn in the 20th century.

It should never be forgotten that the idea of an Igbo ethnicity is itself fairly recent. As late as the 1940s, Igbo ethnogenesis was still an ongoing project. Acceptance to participate in that project had a lot to do with 20th century administrative and geopolitical realities.

There is this strong tendency for people in Anioma to underline multiethnic heritage as the reason why they can't be Igbo. But multiethnic heritage equally applies to many people in the Southeast, where many villages can be found claiming Igala, Benin, Ibibio, Ijaw, Idoma etc origins. There's even some village-units with Nupe backgrounds in the Enugu-Ezike axis. The linguistic tie is practically the only unifier.

If Ngwa had been carved into Rivers State, best believe they will not be Igbo today. If Abiriba had been carved into Cross River State, they will likely not be Igbo today.

But make we leave this matter. There are people who fall within the Igbo(id) linguistic continuum who are not going to come under the Igbo pan-ethnic umbrella anytime soon. It is what it is. Everyone should be able to live with that.

ariesbull:
With the banning of some aspect of Yoruba culture y the Emir. It is alleged that the culture fetish ....and when Soyinka wanted to speak he was called clout chaser

The big question , considering that the city of Ilorin has Emir not Oba ,can we say that Ilorin isn't Yoruba land


Let's have this conversation

The way Nigerians describe ethnicity is very weird. The Nigerian idea of ethnic identity does not recognise assimilation. This is why an Ilorin man who is Yoruba for all intent and purpose will be arguing that he is not Yoruba, based on some Fulani or Hausa or Nupe ancestry from 200 years ago that no longer has any bearing on his life in 2023.

Ilorin is a Yoruba town. The major fraction are indigenous Yorùbá of Oyo extraction. The smaller but politically prominent fraction are assimilated Yorubas of Hausa, Fulani and Nupe extraction.

When people say Ilorin has an emir and not an ọba, the question I usually ask them is: do Ilorin people actually call their ruler 'emir' when they are not speaking English?

The answer I get is no. When Ilorin people talk about their ruler in their native language, what they call him is ọba.

'Emir' was introduced into our national discourse by the British. Even the emirs of Northern Nigeria are called sarki, and only called emir when English is being spoken. The Emir of Kano and the Emir of Katsina, are Sarkin Kano and Sarkin Katsina, respectively.

The Emir of Ilorin is Ọba Ilorin. Don't take my word for it, go and talk to an old non-English speaking Ilorin indigene.

optionalY09:


We will appeal to all South West Oba to declare it illegal to build mosques in SW region

How is this logical to you? The population of Yorubas in the SW who are Muslim may be as high as 50% of the population or at least close. Do you know how many Obas are themselves Muslims? They should proscribe their own religion?

Interesting.

Sizwezi:
Samuk and his brothers come, see and hear what Chief, Epa, Odionwere, has to say about Eze Chima that you always twist to Eze Ikhime. 😂

Cc Redbonesmith

I just finished watching a lengthy video where Imasuen Awowie Izoduwa was arguing for a Benin origin for Ezechime.

It's interesting that I'm being tagged to see this on the same day. I have always said that the elders know the truth.

laiperi:
Anyone trying to inform Redbonesmith with evidence is wasting his time. The guy does not even believe his own evidence:



He has been in America for a long time. Yet, he doesn't understand that when someone calls a Press Conference to announce he is not running, it means he has dropped his exploratory possiblity as a candidate.

I just ignored him until now, asking for evidence that he does not understand again.

Lmao. Apparently, you're still smarting from that little debate where you couldn't substantiate what you were saying, even after being invited to do so.

I always bow to superior argument. I am not given to arguing blindly.

I actually went back after this Sulu-Gambari debate to look at the sources, and the sources are unanimous that Sulu Gambari is descended from Alimi through Abdusalami. I have seen the charts of the family tree to back it up and everything. If you're being honest with yourself, you'll also admit that the screenshot your counterpart shared said nothing about the Ilorin emirship passing to a Hausa lineage. The fact that a Balogun (who was even of a Yoruba, rather than a Hausa pedigree) was the de facto ruler at a point doesn't mean the House of Alimi lost the emirship. All it means is that the emirship at that time was a nominal position with no real power. Kind of like the kingship of France under Cardinal Richelieu.

chrisxxx:

From your answer you have given a clean credence to my argument. Chimpanzees and Apes do not belong to the same class although they may look alike. This also applies to iron (although you said metal perhaps you lack peripheral knowledge of chemistry as good is also a metal) and gold. They are both metal but class apart.
I believe this settles it. Igbos and Ikwerres are not same people.

Wàhálà dey. My analogies went completely over your head. Chimpanzees are apes. Your biology is weak. I didn't mention iron in my example. I said metal. I know what I said. Again, the analogies went completely over your head.

I'll leave this question of Ikwerre vs Igbo here, because being an old timer here, I have grown very tired of the never-ending back and forth.

chrisxxx:

Let me submit this. Would you accept to be Ikwerre if Ikwerres had 5 states and Igbos just 4 LGAs?

If there are two million chimpanzees in the world and only 200 apes, will the apes accept to all be called chimpanzees?

If I have 30 bars of gold and just three bars of metal, can I just call my bars of metal all gold?

This is what your question sounds like to me.

Christistruth03:


Alimi's descendants have long being removed

Emir Gambari is a Hausa man!

Gambari means Hausa in Yoruba and Ilorins know how the the Hausas took over

,Alimi was Fulani

The Screenshot was a British Officer admitting that the Balogun Alabama was the Ruler of Ilorin


Emir Momoh had already been defeated by the Yoruba Chiefs lead by Balogun Alanamu and he had killed himself by Burning down his Palace over himself

It was Balogun Alanamu the British fought and took Ilorin from he was banished to Jebba by them

At the very least, bring a screenshot that supports what you're saying na. This screenshot you keep bringing is not saying anything about a Hausa take-over. That Balogun Alanamu was the defacto leader doesn't mean the emirship had left the House of Alimi. All that your screenshot is saying is that the Emir was a puppet ruler, but Emir he still was! At the risk of repeating myself, this wasn't the first time in history that one man held the title in name and someone else ran the show.

The Balogun Alanamu was of Yoruba heritage, anyways, so I fail to see how emphasising on the fact that he was defacto ruler at the time of the British incursions helps your argument of an Hausa take-over.

All academic sources are unanimous that Sulu-Gambari is descended from Abdusalami, son of Alimi.

Christistruth03:



The Balogun Hausa did a Coup against the Fulani and took Over Ilorin Throne after the Hausas noticed that almost all the Slaves passing through Ilorin from the Northern Jihad Areason the Slave Route to the Lagos Coast were Hausas and the Hausas in Ilorin became Furious and had a big fight with the Fulani in Ilorin

Their complaint was if they were the ones fighting a Jihad how come it was Hausas being Sold and hardly any Fulani

Emir Sulu Gambari descended from the Balogun Hausa

That was when the Yorubas started using the Proverb "Gambari pa Fulani Ko si ejo n'be"

Which means if the Hausas and the Fulani have decided to kill themselves (at Ilorin)

It is none of our Business


By the time the British arrived the Balogun Yoruba Alanamu had Checkmated everyone and was the Ruler of Ilorin

It was the Balogun Yoruba that the British fought in Ilorin and reinstated the already deposed Emir because of Pressure from the Northern Emirs


The Referendum on Kwara which was agreed with the British before independence was granted was supposed to have held at the same time as the Midwest Referendum But Balewa and Azikiwe never carried it out be together with the Referendum for the Eastern Region and Northern Region Minorities

The screenshot attached does not support the idea of a dynastic change. There is nothing unique in history about the military class (such as the Balogun were) gaining more power than the kings and making the kings their puppets. It happened in Japan, for instance, under the shoguns.

But there is nowhere in oral or written history where it is stated that the Hausa Baloguns overthrew the descendants of Alimi and took the throne.

All documents maintain that the throne of Ilorin was rotated between the descendants of the two sons of Alimi: Abdusalami and Shitta. Since 1915, however Abdusalami's descendants have dominated the succession. Sulu-Gambari is a descendant of Abudsalami, son of Alimi.

The question remains, however, as to how the name Gambari came about. It might probably point to a Hausa maternal connection. But the line of Alimi has remained unbroken to this day.

Christistruth03:

By the way the Emir of Ilorin is Hausa and not Fulani

Are you saying Sulu-Gambari is not a direct descendant of Alimi? When did the dynasty change? Or are you just assuming he is Hausa because of the 'Gambari' in his name?

Is this priestess from Ilorin? If she isn't, then it sounds to me like she was looking for trouble. A priest of Onicha in Umunede will not leave his community to go and celebrate Onicha in Igbuzo.