₦airaland Forum

gatiano:
The ahkenazi jews were very good liars. They have been lying since the day God made them. Solomon was wise, but other allegations were just or fabrications. That is why You need both the Bible and the Quran. The Bible verifies the Quran, The Quran verifies the Bible.

Surah 2:102
2:102 And they follow what the devils fabricated against the kingdom of Solomon. And Solomon disbelieved not, but the devils disbelieved, teaching men enchantment. And it was not revealed to the two angels in Babel, Harut and Marut. Nor did they teach (it to) anyone, so that they should have said, We are only a trial, so disbelieve not. But they learn from these two (sources) that by which they make a distinction between a man and his wife. And they cannot hurt with it anyone except with Allah’s permission. And they learn that which harms them and profits them not. And certainly they know that he who buys it has no share of good in the Hereafter. And surely evil is the price for which they have sold their souls, did they but know!

If at this moment, A Blackman or A Blackwoman does not know or have a clear knowledge of the differences between God, and Man, and Mankind, and devil, Then such a person needs to go find the knowledge for his'/her and childrens good.

I don't understand you very well but Solomon actually did all these. There were no lies as certain occurrences stand out as historical milestones pointing:

1. He himself alluded to living such a life in Ecclesiastes;

Ecclesiastes 2:10,11

I denied myself nothing my eyes desired;
I refused my heart no pleasure.
My heart took delight in all my labor,
and this was the reward for all my toil.
11 Yet when I surveyed all that my hands had done
and what I had toiled to achieve,
everything was meaningless, a chasing after the wind;
nothing was gained under the sun.




2. The kingdom was rent from Solomon's son Rehoboam leaving just one tribe left under him as a result of the prophecy that came because of Solomon's sins.
1 Kings 11:10,11,31
10 Although he had forbidden Solomon to follow other gods, Solomon did not keep the Lord’s command. 11 So the Lord said to Solomon, “Since this is your attitude and you have not kept my covenant and my decrees, which I commanded you, I will most certainly tear the kingdom away from you and give it to one of your subordinates.
31 Then he said to Jeroboam, “Take ten pieces for yourself, for this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘See, I am going to tear the kingdom out of Solomon’s hand and give you ten tribes.

3. Long after his death, Nehemiah still referred to it.
Nehemiah 13:26
26 Was it not because of marriages like these that Solomon king of Israel sinned? Among the many nations there was no king like him. He was loved by his God, and God made him king over all Israel, but even he was led into sin by foreign women.

All these are true, there is no lie here!

Like he pointed out in Ecclesiastes, he was trying to determine what mattered in life. "And whatsoever mine eyes desired I kept not from them, I withheld not my heart from any joy; for my heart rejoiced in all my labour: and this was my portion of all my labour. Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labour that I had laboured to do: and, behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 2:10-11).

Rather this establishes the fact that a prophet is made so by the enabling of either the Holy Spirit or the false spirit/spirit of the antichrist.1 John 4:3 "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh(thus accomplishing redemption by dying on the cross) is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." (1 John 4:3). . 2 Peter 1:21,"...holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

The judgement of Amalek as declared in the verse you quoted, had a trail :

1.Exodus 17:8Then Amalek came and fought against Israel at Rephidim. Without any provocation, they attacked a nation newly liberated from captivity, killing some in the process until Israel defended itself. No doubt this was not the only Nation they attacked in cold blood sans provocation. It was their habit and lifestyle.

2.Then Balaam saw Amalek and spoke his message: "Amalek was first among the nations, but their end will be utter destruction."Numbers 24:20
Balaam, the seer(who was not an Israelite) gave this prophecy concerning them. This must have been as a result of their cruel ways.
Warning always precedes judgement. Nineveh was warned and she repented and judgement was withheld.

3. "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt.1 Samuel 15:2 The set time for an unrepentant,cruel nation had come. GOD the Righteous Judge Who said, "vengeance is mine", had waited long enough and the cup of iniquity of Amalek had become full. And God decided to lay vengeance on Amalek by Israel. He could have used another nation like He did in other places.

The verse therefore teaches that
1),"Whoever remains stiff-necked after many rebukes will suddenly be destroyed--without remedy."Proverbs 29:1. We cant afford to spurn warnings continually, scoffing and blaspheming and wondering why judgement did not come immediately! Truth is God remains Who He is scoffing or not. However, judgement has its time just as we have ours.

2)Also the judgement took time to be fulfilled because:
The Lord does not delay and is not tardy or slow about what He promises, according to some people’s conception of slowness, but He is long-suffering (extraordinarily patient) toward you, not desiring that any should perish, but that all should turn to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, 2 Peter 3:9,10a. God desires repentance that He is willing to delay judgement but not forever.

3) The nature of sinners who misunderstand Divine patience is also seen
Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, the hearts of the sons of men are fully set to do evil. Ecclesiastes 8:11

Anas09:
During the millinial reign, the agents of the anti-christ would have received their mark of the beast. Satan will be in chains in the bottomless pit.
My questions are;, where will those who have received the mark be?

They will be exactly where the Bible reveals that they will be when the devil will be loosed to deceive them as stated in Revelations 20:8- Nations which are in the four quarters of the earth(exact names of those nations are not specified but it is enough to note that there'll be such people and they'll be much in number. Isaiah 60:1,2 also describes the fact that some parts of the earth will be covered with darkness at that time. But like it happened in Egypt(During the plague of darkness), there will be light in the places occupied by the saints.

2. Will they enjoy the thousand years reign of Christ with the saints?

There will also be post tribulation people sans the mark. The saints with our Beloved Saviour will reign over both group. Those with the mark will be accursed and under darkness at this time as stated in Isaiah 65:20-25[note that this passage focus on both the Millenial reign and the New Heaven and Earth. The former is actually a precursor to the latter. It speaks of the time b4 death will be cast into the lake of fire. Those who will die, as that verse says, are the post-tribulation saints that did not receive the mark but witnessed Christ's second coming]

3. During this time, will those with the mark have children? If they will, will their children be eternally condemned as a result of the mark on their parents?

As far as I know, the purpose of reproduction wont be necessary at this time- the need to replenish the earth will be over! If you read through that place in Isaiah, child bearing as a blessing is conspicuously omitted . Death is spoken of because the judgement of death will occur after the Millenial reign though the glorified saints wont be affected by it because mortality would have put on immortality, the post tribulation saints sans the mark will still grow old and die during that period.

2 Peter 3:3 To begin with, you must know and understand this, that scoffers (mockers) will come in the last days with scoffing, [people who] walk after their own fleshly desires
4 And say, Where is the promise of His coming? For since the forefathers fell asleep, all things have continued exactly as they did from the beginning of creation.

What a fulfilment!

tola9ja:
i need explanation on this


2 Chronicles 15:13Amplified Bible (AMP)

13 And that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman.

Kindly read the chapter. The place you quoted was not God's command but the people's joint consecration to seek God. See Verse 15,"And all Judah rejoiced at the oath: for they had sworn with all their heart, and sought Him with their whole desire and He was found of them: and the LORD gave them rest..." this shows that no one was forced, it was done willingly hence they all rejoiced at the oath.

Besides, Christ's words as regards the Holy Spirit was in fulfilment of God's promise in the New Covenant given centuries before in Ezekiel 36:27 "And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." (Ezekiel 36:27).

MzzTega:
[i] OK. I got confused about this last week. Was studying when i came across Matthew 5 vs 17. Jesus said and i quote; ‘‘Do not think that i have come to do away with the Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets. I have not come to do away with them,but to make their teachings come true''.

Going to verse 38 of same chapter i got confused,it was talking about; An eye for an eye;that was what was in the law of moses,jesus said; do not take revenge on someone who wrongs you.

The law also taught Leviticus 19:18
18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord. Hence the greatest commandment supersedes the one included because of the hardness of their heart.

Aint the two laws contradictory?

No! Rather grace which came by Jesus takes away our claims to the aspects allowed as a result of hardness of heart. If you look at the Sermon on the Mount, you will notice this. The sermon on the mount exposes the hardness of the heart and Grace takes it away as promised Ezekiel 36:26b (This is the main blessing in the New Covenant)
I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

In Malachi; GOD said he hates divorce

In Matthew;Jesus said;(paraphrased) divorcing a woman other than unfaithfulness,makes her commit adultery.
That is to say;Divorce is permitted only on the ground of unfaithfulness.

In the OT,just as Jesus said, a man was allowed to put away his wife if he discovered she had been involved in fornication prior to marriage hence was not a virgin. Deuteronomy 22:13-21
13 “If any man takes a wife, and goes in to her, and detests her, 14 and charges her with shameful conduct, and brings a bad name on her, and says, ‘I took this woman, and when I came to her I found she was not a virgin
16 And the young woman’s father shall say to the elders, ‘I gave my daughter to this man as wife, and he detests her.
17 Now he has charged her with shameful conduct, saying, “I found your daughter was not a virgin,” and yet these are the evidences of my daughter’s virginity.’ And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.
19 and they shall fine him one hundred shekels of silver and give them to the father of the young woman, because he has brought a bad name on a virgin of Israel. And she shall be his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.

20 “But if the thing is true, and evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, 21 then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done a disgraceful thing in Israel, to play the harlot in her father’s house. So you shall put away the evil from among you.








However, Jesus revealed that anyone who puts away his wife is not allowed to remarry and the woman thus put away cannot remarry. Way out? Forgiveness! Similar to Jesus saying he that is without sin let him throw his wife out.(Not until you went to bed with a woman; even the lusts lodged in your heart before salvation makes you no different before God than the disvirgined [but now saved] woman). This will sure take a heart of flesh, the impact of God's grace to do.

Corinthians further stressed it that;When you find it hard to forgive the unfaithful act,divorce.

Paul simply emphasized Christ's teachings. But come to think of it. You find it hard to forgive someone, then God also wont forgive you! It's painful but that simple.

I need an explanation.

You just got one!

In Deuteronomy 18, Moses stated that God told him: “I will raise[/color] up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.” (Deuteronomy 18:18-19).1

Now the bible speaks of a prophet to come who is like Moses.

"Deuteronomy 18:18 says that God would raise up a prophet like Moses from among their brothers. The Israelites (the Jews) and the Ishmaelites (Arabs) were brothers. The prophecy states that ‘I will put my words in his mouth and he will tell them everything I command him.’

46 If you really believed Moses, you would believe me, because he wrote about me. 47 But you don’t believe what he wrote, so you can’t believe what I say.” Here Jesus clearly stated Who Moses' reference was.
Besides apart from the Arabs, the Edomites, Moabites, Midianites were also brothers to Israel; God is not the author of confusion.

“Moses was born with a human mother and father, he married, had children, etc. Jesus was born miraculously, he had no human father, he never married, never had children, etc.

Moses reference to another Prophet was as it concerns the Word to be spoken and the involvement of a covenant, not these you pointed at.

Also, Isaiah 42:1-13 speaks of the servant of God, His “chosen one” and “messenger” who will bring down a law. “He will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope.” (Isaiah 42:4). Verse 11, connects that awaited one with the descendants of Kedar. Who is Kedar? According to Genesis 25:13, Kedar was the second son of Ishmael, the ancestor of the Prophet Muhammad .

Rather, the chapter referred to Christ as the inspired writers of the Gospels noted see:
1. Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold;
mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth;
I have put my spirit upon him:
Matthew 3:16,17
So Jesus was baptized. As soon as he came up out of the water, the sky opened, and he saw God’s Spirit coming down on him like a dove. 17 A voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, the one I love. I am very pleased with him.” The Spirit (not an angel) was put upon Him in Whom God delighted or was well pleased!

2. Isaiah 42:2,3 He shall not cry, nor lift up,
nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break,
and the smoking flax shall he not quench:
he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

Matthew 12:15-21
15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; 16 and charged them that they should not make him known: 17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, 18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. 19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. 20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. 21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

Another indication (other than the prophecy in Deuteronomy) is that Isaiah ties the messenger connected with Kedar with a new song (a scripture in a new language) to be sung to the Lord (Isaiah 42:10-11).

Kedar was mentioned because vs 1 already promised that the Messiah's Ministry will reach to the Gentiles part of which was Kedar.

Also, one notices from the Gospel of John that the Jews were waiting for the fulfillment of three distinct prophecies. The first was the coming of Christ. The second was the coming of Elijah. The third was the coming of the Prophet. This is obvious from the three questions that were posed to John the Baptist: “Now this was John’s testimony, when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Christ.” They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” He answered, “No.” (John 1:19-21).

We cant eke out a teaching from the questions of those! Let's keep with the scriptures! Their question were based on their faulty understanding. These same elders (who Christ denounced) taught the people that no one will know where Christ will come from- something not found in scripture. These same sanhedrin exalted the tradition of washing while laying aside the law of God. The Bible also prophesied a Priest after the order of Melchizedek; It also prophesied of a Branch etc Did they look for these too? The expectation of the jews was Christ called the Prophet by Moses and called the King/Servant by the prophets. Hear a Jew talk:
John 1:45
45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth,

If we look in a Bible with cross-references, we will find in the marginal notes where the words “the Prophet” occur in John 1:21, that these words refer to the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18:18.2 We conclude from this that Jesus Christ is not the prophet mentioned in Deuteronomy 18:18.

The responses above and Jesus'own Words already refutes this.

"He said,

“The Lord came from Sinai and dawned from Seir upon us;

he shone forth from Mount Paran; he came from the ten thousand of holy ones, with flaming fire at his right hand."
—Deuteronomy 33:2

God will come from the south, and the holy one from mount pharan [color=#990000](mountain of ISHMAEL) His glory covered the heavens, and the earth is full of his praise.

Moses here was describing what happened on Mount Sinai when he went to receive the law written with the Finger of God on tables of stones, not a prophecy! Deuteronomy 33:2
The Lord came from Sinai,
and rose up from Seir unto them;
he shined forth from mount Paran,
and he came with ten thousands of saints:
from his right hand went a fiery law for them. I dont know where you got the highlighted from.

The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes; And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.

Nice quote this! Judah happened to be the tribe whence Christ came through.This was a prophecy of Christ's coming through the tribe of Judah!

Similarities between Muhammad and Moses:

Muhammad and Moses both had a natural birth, both had parents, were accepted by his people unlike jesus who was rejected, brought forth new laws, Married, had kids, died natural deaths, Etc

Moses laws were not aloof! They were part of a Covenant. Jesus also came in respect of the New Covenant which God called New Covenant, Everlasting covenant etc prophesied in the OT.! The likeness Moses spake about was not all these you are referring to!

In the Book of Isaish. Chapter 29, verse 12, we read: "AND THE BOOK" (al-Kitaab,al-Quran the 'Readin g', the 'Recitation') "IS DELIVERED TO HIM THAT IS NOT LEARNED," (Isaiah 29:12) "THE UNLETTERED PROPHET " (Holy Qur'an 7:158) and the biblical verse continues : "SAYING, READ THIS, I PRAY THEE:" (the words "I pray thee", are not in the Hebrew manuscripts; compare with the Roman Cathol ics' "Douay Version and also with the "Revised Standard Versions" "AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT LEARNED." ("I am not learned." is the exact translation of the Arabic words which Muhummed uttered twice to the Holy Ghose - the Archangel Gabriel, when he was commanded : "READ!".[/color]

You picked verse 12 out of its context!

The context was on the influence of a spirit of slumber
Isaiah 29:10-12
For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep,
and hath closed your eyes:
the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed,which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: 12 and the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

God was saying the people had been blinded by a spirit of slumber hence the visions were likened to a sealed book! If you will claim that verse then you must accept the influence of a spirit of deep sleep and blindness. I dont think you want to though.

Besides, Isaiah 42 starts with a reference to a Servant of God. The same Servant was referred to in Isaiah 53:11,6-12

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
by [color=#000099]his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;
for he shall bear their iniquities.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth:
he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb,
so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment:
and who shall declare his generation?
for he was cut off out of the land of the living:
for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death;
because he had done no violence,
neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him;
he hath put him to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days,
and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
because he hath poured out his soul unto death:
and he was numbered with the transgressors;
and he bare the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

There is no other that these refer to but Jesus Christ Who also said:
28 Just as the Son of Man came not to be waited on but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many [the price paid to set them free].
28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which [[f]ratifies the agreement and] is [g]being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
The New Covenant, like the Old, was to be sealed by the Blood,not of animals, but of that of ,"the Lamb of God, Who takes away the sin of the world!" Matthew 20:28;Matthew 26:28; John 1:29b

If you read the post, you'd see I wrote how these prophesies could not be referring to jesus.

But Jesus was the One who said that! Would you now claim to know better than He did?! Yes I'd reply once I get to my Laptop. However I'll need your reply to the question I just asked because if your initial reply is anything to go by, then a detailed reply would be a waste of time. Reason? In making your points you referred to the Bible. Now the same Bible is quoted and since the part quoted contradicts the point you were trying to establish, you give a reply that suggests that your post is more credible!

If you read the post, you'd see I wrote how these prophesies could not be referring to jesus.

But Jesus was the One who said that! Are you now saying that you know better than He did?! Yes I'd reply once I get to my Laptop.

@Zobek, pls the prophecy was referring to Jesus as He Himself said in John 5:46,47 "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" (John 5:46-47). I would like to go over your submission piece by piece but my phone cant contain it. Maybe later. Regards

@Zobek, pls the prophecy was referring to Jesus as He Himself said in John 5:46,47 "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" (John 5:46-47).

Sarassin:
I grant you that it is a beautiful Psalm, but inspired.....no.

You need to show that the Psalmist has demonstrated a knowledge beyond the confines of his reality and you have not done so. I invite you to examine the Hebrew concept of cosmology and examine if David’s Psalm was extraordinary in any way.

The Genesis creation story provides the first key to the Hebrew cosmology. The earth was created on the first day

The time when the Earth that was without form & void was created was not specified.,
"1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." All that was described in the six-day period appeared to have a connection with making the Earth (as a planet) able to support life; an attribute which the other planets (also created see Hebrews 1:2) lacks till date.

On the second day, a vault the “firmament” was created to divide the waters, some being above and some below the vault. Only on the fourth day were the sun, moon, and stars created, and they were placed “in” the vault (not “above”).

Yes. However note that the firmament directly interfaces with the other parts of the universe/outer space. Also note that the psalm correctly said that the sun has a tabernacle in the firmament whence it proceeded its going forth,
"In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven,
and his circuit unto the ends of it" In other words, it took off from the same firmament.

With respect to the Earth, it would be fair to say that biblical writers considered the earth flat and fixed. The following scriptures point us in that direction;

1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”
Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”
Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.” (never mind earthquakes)

This verses are referring to the terra firma i.e. the ground as distinct from the sea. Psalm 104:5 also reads "who laid the foundations of the earth,
that it should not be removed for ever" Meaning that the word 'shaken' suggests a total removal, as Hebrews 12:27 also shows, quite distinct from the quaking/tremors of various intensity.

The vault of heaven is a crucial concept. The word “firmament” appears in the KJV of the Old Testament 17 times, and in each case it is translated from the Hebrew word[i] raqiya[/i], which meant the visible vault of the sky. The word raqiya comes from riqqua, meaning “beaten out.” In ancient times, brass objects were either cast into form or beaten into shape. A good craftsman could beat a lump of cast brass into a thin bowl, i.e;

“Can you beat out (raqa) the vault of the skies, as he does, hard as a mirror of cast metal ?” Job 37:18

It is clear to see that the working model of the Hebrew view of the cosmos was quite simply a flat earth, and an all encompassing rigid dome for a sky.

Remember that the "... firmament [the expanse of the sky] in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters [below] from the waters [above]"(Genesis 1). Hence placing this passage vis a vis the one you quoted, the simile that referenced a mirror of metal, simply points to the fixed state of the firmament. Considering the fact that to separate the waters above and below, the firmament has to be as hard as a metal. (I need to emphasize that in a simile "two things are compared that are not really the same, but are used to make a point about each other"{enkivillage.com})

With respect to the Sun, Psalm 19:4-6 suggests that the sun holes up at the ends of the earth until it is time to rise. There is no suggestion of a continual orbital around a greater universe, the Hebrew creation model clearly defines the ends of the earth. Enoch clarifies and expands upon this idea

Enoch was not the author of the book in question; the author merely quoted a prophecy by Enoch perhaps to lend credence to to his book and endear it to the hebrews(who classify it as a pseudephigrapha). Actually the book (written milleniums after Enoch's time) contains strange contradictions hence its rejection by protestants who (as also do the jews) see it as an non-canonical as a result we cant use quotes therefrom as representing inspired utterances.

in 1 Enoch 41:5, he “saw the storerooms of the sun and the moon, from what place they go out and to which place they return...” not an inkling that he had peered into the deepest recesses of the milky way, he also states;

1 Enoch 72:2:" The sun is a luminary whose egress is an opening of heaven, which is in the direction of the east, and whose ingress is (another) opening of heaven, in the west". It is not a suggestion of solar intergalactic movement.

These are strictly views of the writer which, I believe,is one of the strange things he wrote. If we will consider them at all,then it will be seen as what secular science (at teething stage) suggested at that time (200-150 BC thereabouts)

The Hebrew cosmological view did not consider the possibility of a solar system, another galaxy or indeed other planets. Stars were considered as tiny objects inside the sky that generally fell to earth or else were to be worshiped.

Could you substantiate all these? The Bible may not have called it solar system but mention of the components of the system was made- sun, moon, stars (by the way, these were also in motion as shown in Job) It's understandable if the passage you may be alluding to as regards the highlighted called meteors stars. The translation was done in 1611 (diction was limited) and as at November 13,1833 when a similar phenomenon occurred the general belief then was that stars were falling meaning the use of the word 'Meteor' was unknown at that time of translation.(science and astronomy was still evolving)

Finally,consider Acts 19:35

And when the town clerk had quieted the crowd, he said, "Men of Ephesus, what man is there who does not know that the city of the Ephesians is temple keeper of the great Artemis, and of the sacred stone that fell from the sky"?

The claim of the speaker here was what I call a superstition meant to add an air of divinity to a statue.(the statue I saw on the net looks like one of the Hellenistic art works hence could not be a meteorite!)If you read the entire chapter from Acts 19:23-27, you will understand the real goal that made this superstition to gain ground.

There is nothing in Psalm 19:4-6 to demonstrate that the Psalmist was stating anything out of keeping or incompatible with contemporary Hebrew cosmology.

But there is everything to show that the psalmist was Inspired along lines inconsistent with whatever science held then.

Apologies for the length of my post.

No problem with length; civility is appreciated. I hope we get a fair trial this time.

How do you explain John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
And John 16:7,13,14
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

How then were they to be fruitful? What of the animals?

Sarassin:
I would have thought it far easier that you simply state your case, I am not sure that my stance on the supernatural and matters of faith should have any bearing on what you believe to be the consequences or lack thereof, of God bringing the universe to a grinding halt.

The reason why I said initially that it wont be necessary was because substantiations, like the lead post, would draw both from discoveries and the Bible hence it will be futile to continue considering the fact that the latter reference will be despised. Secondly, this thread is about the inspired declaration of the psalmist and the confirmation by science after centuries of claims to the contrary (not Joshua and his petition) hence let's focus on that.. Already, the psalmist does not, expressedly or impliedly, connect this to day nor night.

Sarassin:
If it is your contention that God did indeed "stop" the universe then you should substantiate this, and explain your take on the possible consequences or lack thereof.

On the second part of your question, there is nothing to preclude self-forming celestial bodies, as you may well know very recently astronomers using NASA's Hubble Space Telescope have found compelling evidence of a planet forming 7.5 billion miles away from its star, there is no overarching reason to insist on creationism, what is more? celestial bodies move in accordance with observable cosmic laws, but if you wish to debate creationism then that's a different ball-game.

Before we take off, I'd like to know your stance on the supernatural, faith etc (e.g. do you find the dividing of the red sea ridiculous?)

From your own internet review, is there any proof that the new planet is being formed following principles outside those cosmic laws (if indeed all have been discovered which I doubt)? And whence those laws? I believe they are what the Bible refer to as the "ordinances of heaven" .

finofaya:
Moving on to the claim in your OP, given that it is also an utterance by David who cannot be expected to have as much as a remotely correct knowledge of astronomy, it is obviously as incorrect as the utterance by Joshua.

The website quoted (and others available on the net) can be consulted as regards the highlighted.

To my mind, the reference to a "circuit" is a reference to the Sun circuiting the earth.

I am glad you indicated that it was your perception although the passage made no reference to the sun circuiting the earth.

More importantly, there is no where you can call the "ends of the heavens", if the "heavens" refers to the rest of the universe other than the earth. You probably say otherwise, so I invite you to explain why you've decided that of all places, the Milky Way galaxy - which is roughly in the middle of nowhere - is the "ends of the heavens" that David (not the bible) speaks of.

David as the Inspired psalmist used that term. The fact that he used the plural-ends and not end- shows the vastness of the place being referred to.(The diameter of the Milky way, around the centre of which the sun moves, is given as 100,000 light years)

The recent discovery of the sun's movement in the Milky way (confirming the quote in the psalms made some milleniums ago) is credited to the website quoted and a host of others available on the net.

Sarassin:
I would hazard a guess that many respondents on this thread may have a different belief on things spiritual but fair enough if you chooese not to answer.

Regardless of whether celestial bodies came about through the big bang, or God hung them up what is clear is that they all obey clearly defined cosmic laws of gravitation and Keplerian movement (with slight aberrations)

So, given what we know about interplanetary dependency, perpetual movement of an ever expanding universe and what we now know, that nothing in the universe remains stationary my question still stands, do you still believe God hit the pause button on his universal cosmic remote control?

Yes. I would have loved to give some substantiation however that wont be necessary. However, do you really believe all those stated in your analysis are self-made, self-directed and self-operational?

Sarassin:
Ok, so lets explore this a bit further. If we accept that God created everything, i.e the universe and all the celestial bodies are subject to Him, and also your reasonable assertion that the entire universe must have come to a standstill in order to accomodate Joshua's dilemma. What then would you consider the consequences of stopping the universe?

I say bringing the earth to an instant stationary position from a speed of 1800 km/hr would first throw the earth out of its orbit, and send the earth spinning aimlessly into the great empyrean, it would bring about intense atmospheric action and the lack of gravitational pull would make for the seas to rise up virtually instantaneously. Extend a similar action to the sun, knocked off what we now know to be its cosmic yearly orbit, possibly drawing the earth closer to its sphere or the opposite, consider the effects of intense electromagnetic flares and then multiply these actions across the universe. I would say the consequence is utter chaos.

Is it the case that Christians would sooner rearrange the universe than accept that a bible writer possibly imbibed of the wine of the grape took a bit of a liberty in writing history?

Do you still think God pressed the pause button on the universe?

Yes. I would have loved to give some substantiation however that wont be necessary since you have a different belief on things spiritual. However, do you really believe all those stated in your analysis are self-made, self-directed and self-operational? I dont know your stance on Big bang but it can be empirically proven that no explosion leaves perfect, systematic order afterwards.

plaetton:
You haven't raised any issues here, except making up contexts as you go.
Which Is what blind faith religion is about.

Describe such made-up contexts you noticed.
13 If I shut up heaven so no rain falls, or if I command locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among My people,
14 If My people, who are called by My name, shall humble themselves, pray, seek, crave, and require of necessity My face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, forgive their sin, and heal their land.(AMP)

13 When I close the sky so that there is no rain, or command the locusts to destroy the land, or send sicknesses to my people 14 and if my people who are called by my name become humble and pray, and look for me, and turn away from their evil ways, then I will hear them from heaven. I will forgive their sin and heal their land.(ETR)

Sarassin:
You would be right to state that the Psalmist had no clue of what he had written else, he would not have written such. We could say it was a tad excessive for the good Lord to bring the intergalactic system to a shuddering halt just so Joshua could defeat a ragtag army who fought with spears, sticks and stones.

Consider the implications of such a halt, on the earth for instance spinning along on its axis at a speed of roughly 1,800 km/hr, not to speak of the moon and its gravitational pull on the earth, consider the myriad of galaxies, planets, stars and satellites each moving in Keplerian orbits exerting gravitational pull on one another keeping them in orbit, that would have had to obey the "stop" order, the results would have been catastrophic.

Nice analysis! But God created them all and they remain subject to HIM.

The Bible is meant for study, meditation, fellowship and obedience. It is not some kind of charm or talisman.

Biblical events, among other things, comprise records of historical dealings of God with man. Hence if in stating those historical events, the need arises to quote specific words spoken by men, then understand that that is what it is- a quotation(which will expectedly reflect the culture & level of understanding at that time) and its inclusion is not without a purpose.

Those historical events gives us an understanding of the immutable Divine nature and how we are to relate with Same. Now question is how do we recognise the words quoting man and the ones inspired? The context reveals this. In Joshua's case, we have the exact words uttered in prayer quoted. The psalm in the lead post was a Psalm by a king/prophet. A psalm is a sacred,inspired song for different purposes.

Now Joshua's request you alluded to as it concerns the sun and moon standing still was according to his level of understanding which was not scripturally or scientifically correct.
The language that Joshua uses in addressing the sun and moon is the language of ordinary observation still used today in the scientific age. Probably Joshua and his contemporaries thought of the sun as moving around the earth, but his language should not be pressed to construct a "view of the universe" any more than should todays reference to the rising and setting of the sun (Marten Woodstra, The Book of Joshua, Grand Rapids, Eerdmans: 1981, p. 175)
It is not necessary to assume Joshua was scientifically sophisticated. It is more likely that God honored the spirit of his request than to assume Joshua had some scientific insight that was not shared by the people of his day.(Don Stewart)

You seem to be giving yourself a lot of leeway with your interpretations of biblical events. Even the mention of the moon in the verse does not justify assuming that every other thing stayed still. You see, the Bible does not know what a solar system is, much less how to , ake one stand still.

The Bible may not call it Solar system however the reference to the components of the Solar system is admissible for this purpose.
However, the focus of this thread is the fact that the sun moves as against the fact held by science and sceptics, against the psalm in question. Interestingly, the psalm quoted does not link such movement to day and night.

finofaya:
You're being evasive, like you don't have the answers and you hope the question will just leave eventually.

Could you specify the question evaded by my last reply? You alleged that the moon was not mentioned and I quoted the verse in question where it was pointed out that the moon also stood still.

A system (solar system inclusive) comprises an interconnecting network of components hence there is no way the sun and moon will be stayed while the earth will continue! Job 38:33a"Do you know the ordinances of the heavens?" Was a question God asked Job and it suggests two things:
1. It establishes the fact of the solar system and alludes to the fact that the interconnected components therein are guided by ordinances(principles);
2. At those primitive times, their knowledge of such things was highly limited thus establishing the fact of Inspiration.

If you consider the lead post, I did not say the writer of that psalm or any one knew the Galaxy,sun movement etc, the thrust was that at such primitive time, only an Inspiration from GOD could have led the speaker say such things.

Alright Apple, how about this. Revelations 3:21 "... Even as I overcame, and am set down WITH MY FATHER IN HIS THRONE"

franconian:
Really?
Why then did God prevent those men from getting to the sky through the Tower of Babel? Why was he scared that man would see him in the sky?

Why were they even building the tower? Was it not to see God? Were they thinking God who you said reside in heaven would visit the heavens(sky)?


Forget this your heavens and heaven thing, those who built the tower believed God resides in the sky.
They believed heaven was a physical place they can take a ride to via the tower.

With the advancement is science, modern Christian realised that they is no one in the sky. So they are now taking heaven farther into the Galaxies, some are now claiming it is a spiritual location.

Can you help by quoting where it was stated that God was scared? I believe the diversion from the purpose of replenishing the earth was what prompted the Divine action. "And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth." (Genesis 11:4). I understand this issue has a recent thread.

finofaya:
Dude, you're clutching at straws here. The report is simply that the sun stood still. No mention of the moon, or the earth or the solar system. The movement of the moon doesn't even have any effect on sunlight, so its not logical that the moon also stood still in order to guarantee uninterrupted sunlight. Similarly, unless the sun revolves around the earth, it is not logical for the sun to stand still in order to guarantee uninterrupted sunlight

. "And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. .. . in the midst of heaven,." (Joshua 10:13). This verse states that the Sun and moon stood still. If you look at the fact that these are part of a system[comprising interdependent components], then it is only reasonable that the entire system had to halt for the petition to be answered.
It's possible that the person who made the petition did not have perfect knowledge of exactly how it happened being unlearned(we can pardon the primitive idea of the petitioner being a liberated slave involved in about 40years wandering in the wilderness.). Even the author of the Psalm quoted might not have understood what he said under inspiration. Also event happened a number of millenia b4 the AD period. However, the intricacies of how it actually happened is as explained.

The murders of the robber and the lying, fornication etc of the victim (if they are not saved) are all sins before God. It's hence a case of one genuinely repenting and believing on Christ and the other not repenting etc.

plaetton:
Big laugh.
What context?
The one you flipped out of your behind?

I guess progress will be made if your criticism will be based on the issues raised rather than a resorting to obscenities.