₦airaland Forum

Papist:
What is the origin of your church? Can you trace the succession of your pastors to the apostles or is it a man made sect? Tertullian writing in the second century asks you for the proof here:

"But if there be any [heresies]
which are bold enough to plant
[their origin] in the midst of the
apostolic age, that they may
thereby seem to have been
handed down by the apostles,
because they existed in the time
of the apostles, we can say: Let
them produce the original records
of their churches; let them unfold
the roll of their bishops, running
down in due succession from the
beginning in such a manner that
[their first] bishop shall be able to
show for his ordainer and
predecessor some one of the
apostles or of apostolic men—a
man, moreover, who continued
steadfast with the apostles. For
this is the manner in which the
apostolic churches transmit their
registers: as the church of
Smyrna, which records that
Polycarp was placed therein by
John; as also the church of Rome,
which makes Clement to have
been ordained in like manner by
Peter" (ibid., 32).
"But should they even effect the
contrivance [of composing a
succession list for themselves],
they will not advance a step. For
their very doctrine, after
comparison with that of the
apostles [as contained in other
churches], will declare, by its own
diversity and contrariety, that it
had for its author neither an
apostle nor an apostolic man;
because, as the apostles would
never have taught things which
were self-contradictory" (ibid.).
"Then let all the heresies, when
challenged to these two tests by
our apostolic Church, offer their
proof of how they deem
themselves to be apostolic. But in
truth they neither are so, nor are
they able to prove themselves to
be what they are not. Nor are they
admitted to peaceful relations and
communion by such churches as
are in any way connected with
apostles, inasmuch as they are in
no sense themselves apostolic
because of their diversity as to the
mysteries of the faith" (ibid.).

No denomination is prominent in heaven. The church is not a denomination and its members; rather it is the total of all those who are joined to Jesus Christ by repentance and faith through the power of the Spirit. Each denomination is a mixed multitude of the true Church (believers), hypocrites, and sinners in different mix. (some have more of one than the other, others have almost none)eg the church in jersusalem (before they were dispersed) had Ananias and Sapphira etc

1 Corinthians 12:13

13 For by [[d]means of the personal agency of] one [Holy] Spirit we were all, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free, baptized [and [e]by baptism united together] into one body, and all made to drink of one [Holy] Spirit.

That's why Paul spoke of Aquila and the church (gathering of believers) in his house Romans 16:4,5 etc

Besides, Jesus Christ in the book of Revelations 2&3 sent messages to 7 different churches and their leaders( assemblies of believers) scattered through out Asia minor! there was no mention or a likeness of the Catholic church and a singular ruler (eg successor of Peter etc.)

If, like you claim, the Catholic church is the Church(denomination) Jesus established, I wonder why His message to the Churches in Revelations made no mention of that throughout!

Papist:
Historical revisionism? Why am I not surprised when this is coming from a Protestant? Here is more to shock you from Luther your hero:

Christ, ..was the only Son of
Mary, and the Virgin Mary
bore no children besides
Him... "brothers" really
means "cousins" here, for
Holy Writ and the Jews
always call cousins brothers.
(Sermons on John, chapters
1-4.1537-39).

He, Christ, our Savior, was
the real and natural fruit of
Mary's virginal womb.. .This
was without the cooperation
of a man, and she remained
a virgin after that. (Ibid.)
God says... "Mary's Son is My
only Son." Thus Mary is the
Mother of God. (Ibid.).
God did not derive his
divinity from Mary; but it
does not follow that it is
therefore wrong to say that
God was born of Mary, that
God is Mary's Son, and that
Mary is God's mother...She
is the true mother of God
and bearer of God...Mary
suckled God, rocked God to
sleep, prepared broth and
soup for God, etc. For God
and man are one person,
one Christ, one Son, one
Jesus. not two Christs. . .just
as your son is not two
sons...even though he has
two natures, body and soul,
the body from you, the soul
from God alone. (On the
Councils and the Church,
1539).

It is a sweet and pious belief
that the infusion of Mary's
soul was effected without
original sin; so that in the
very infusion of her soul she
was also purified from
original sin and adorned with
God's gifts, receiving a pure
soul infused by God; thus
from the first moment she
began to live she was free
from all sin" (Sermon: "On
the Day of the Conception of
the Mother of God," 1527).

She (Mary) is full of grace,
proclaimed to be entirely
without sin—something
exceedingly great. For God's
grace fills her with
everything good and makes
her devoid of all evil.
(Personal {"Little"} Prayer
Book, 1522).

[She is the] highest woman
and the noblest gem in
Christianity after Christ.
..She is nobility, wisdom, and
holiness personified. We can
never honor her enough. Still
honor and praise must be
given to her in such a way as
to injure neither Christ nor
the Scriptures. (Sermon,
Christmas, 1531).
No woman is like you. You
are more than Eve or Sarah,
blessed above all nobility,
wisdom, and sanctity.
(Sermon, Feast of the
Visitation. 1537).
One should honor Mary as
she herself wished and as
she expressed it in the
Magnificat. She praised God
for his deeds. How then can
we praise her? The true
honor of Mary is the honor
of God, the praise of God's
grace.. .Mary is nothing for
the sake of herself, but for
the sake of Christ...Mary
does not wish that we come
to her, but through her to
God. (Explanation of the
Magnificat, 1521).

Luther was an augustinian monk under the Roman Catholic church (and an intensely indoctrinated one at that) In fact, Luther faced the council, and carried out his reformation still dressed as a monk! Just like Peter etc found it difficult to break from their roots in Judaism, he must have had his own difficulties. Besides, it's a life's work to translate the whole scriptures (when the press was not what it is today), under the risky conditions in which he did, and still have time for in-depth study.

Besides, my post concerning Luther did not exalt him as a hero; just mentioned him as one (out of others) who risked their lives to bring to the open and make public that which the Roman Catholic Church wanted to have monopoly over! It does not therefore mean that everything he says will/should be accepted lock,stock and barrel! Like the Bereans, we cross-check his teachings with the Word and if there is any contradiction, the Word supersedes Luther's or any other person's teaching!

EMILO2STAY:
pls dont say what the bible didnt, the grave of abraham david isaac and jacob did not open. If it did, it would have been recorded. the saints will be resurrected into perfect body when jesus comes again not 2000yrs ago. U should begin to read the bible with understanding ,concerning revelation 6:9-10, to understand this we must understand the context. john was witnessing a vision while in spirit. So under inspiration he was seeing future events depicted in symbolysm, the fifth seal is figurative of the great tribulation, a time of great trouble preceding christ return. In this vision john sees under the alter the martyred believers who put down their life for their faith in God, these souls figuratively cry out 'avenge our blood!' this can be compared to abels blood metaphorically crying out to God Gen 4:10 . Though neither dead souls no blood can actually speak, this phrases figuratively demonstrate that a God of justice will not forget the evil deeds of mankind perpetrated against his righteouse people. This verse does not suggest that dead souls are in heaven as the bible made it clear that no man has been to heaven excerpt the son of man which came down from heaven and that is 'jesus'. Paul made it clear in 1 thess.4.16 that the dead righteous await the lord in their grave. Jesus said to the apostles where i am goin u cannot follow me now john13.36. When we allow bible to interpret itself rev. 6.9 cannot mean any one is in heaven now. Rather it is both a prophesy that martyrdom will occur and will continue untill the coming of christ.

What then will you say the story of Lazarus and the rich man depict? Why then will Jesus say to the thief on the cross ,
Luke 23:43
...Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with Me in paradise,

At least this shows that the story of Lazarus and the rich man was not an illustrative parable!

Paradise is not the grave where other saints were sleeping? Is it?

Papist:
He is telling you to go to the Church which canonised the Bible. The Church which told you that Genesis to Revelation is scripture. That Church is the Catholic Church and it canonised the Bible at Carthage, Hippo and Rome in the 4th century, more than 1000 years before the first Protestant.

And also went ahead to include the apocrypha, which are non - inspired! I believe the credit (as human elements) should go to those who were in tune with God enough to know that the apocrypha had no place in scripture and not just a compilation done thanks to having custody of the books!

Listen to the major Protestant father Martin Luther here:
Commentary on St.
John (ch. 16), "we are
obliged to yield many
things to the papists
[Catholics]--that they
possess the word of
God which we
received from them,
otherwise we should
have known nothing
at all about it."

Luther was sure being gracious here.

But for the efforts of people like himself, Tyndale etc (who put their life on the line due to possible martyrdom by the catholic Church) the Bible would have been a hidden book being the exclusive preserve of the catholic clergy who will then decide what should be taught and what to make the people believe. (by the way they did not give us the word as its original authors!).

From history, we can see that the RCC did not act for the public good like Luther,Tyndale etc did; there were other motives for the custody of the books gathered and compiled else why did they conceal it from the public? and why were people like Luther, who sought to place it in every hand ,persecuted (and some martyred) if there was no ulterior motive? But God Whose Word it is (and Who can use a raven to fulfil His purpose) overruled!

Even Luther knew he acted (publishing the 95 thesis, translating the Bible to the people's mother tongue etc) at the risk of being burned by the Catholic Church! Why? because, inter alia, he declared the truth as found in the Bible (previously concealed)that the just shall be justified and shall live by faith!

Sorry, which church is that?

Omolola1:
I've been a little bit confused for a while now

I've been reading the bible back to back, and I came across this passage:
I Corinthians 7:36 "But if any man think that he behaves himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let them do what he will, he sins not: let them marry."

Now, my interpretation of this passage is: as long as you are up to the age of 18, a man can sleep with his girl BUT he must marry her after he must have slept with her...This means the bible supports fornication. I've read so many other versions of the same passage, and it's even more revealing and straight to the point than KJV

What's your interpretation?

Note that the uncomely behaviour is not a mutual action (himself). This verse clarifies it

I Corinth 7:9
But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.(with unfulfilled desires)
They need not burn if they were allowed to know each other before marriage!

1 Corinth 7:4
The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.

The use of wife & husband shows at what stage intimacy can be introduced


This does not support fornication. What if there is a break up? and that becomes a trend? Somebody did what you think that verse supports and this was the description

Genesis 34:21
And they said, Should he deal with our sister as with an harlot?

I believe you know the story. The brothers of the lady in question revenged in spite of the promise by the man to marry her. Even before the law, the moral standard was such that intimacies before marriage was punishable by death. Also,the law demands that a woman whose husband discovered was not a virgin after marriage (not before) was to be stoned?

The righteousness under the NT is even higher hence the provision of grace that empowers and enables. Thoughts are judged as actions.

Matthew 5:27,28

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 but I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

1 Corinthians 6:9,10

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


Ephesians 5:3-7

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

OLAADEGBU:
Shall we just agree that Solomon's heart departed from the Lord when he was old and it he also wrote Ecclesiastes when he was old probably when he came back to his senses but there was no record where he corrected the evils he did during his reign such as destroying the temples to idols that he erected.

Fine. I dont remember saying that (the highlighted).

trem321:
so is it a sin? you didn't say anything

Yes i did not say anything. The quotations are what the Bible says which, in my intro, was what i said I would post.

EMILO2STAY:
the bible is of no personal intepretation so u should let the bible speak for itself.

very correct.

As a matter of fact hebrews 11:39 nulifies every thought of the saints in heaven as it mentions all the men of great faith and concluded by saying they did not recieve the promise, chapter 40' states that they cant be made perfect without us. Are actually perfect now?

Alright what was the scenario being described in Hebrews 12:22-25? They are made perfect not by us but by what God has provided in our dispensation.
Remember that their graves were opened after the resurrection?
Hebrews 11:40
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Let me illustrate this with Revelations 6:9-11

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The altar is located in Heaven, not the grave. There is a celestial body (spirits, angels) and also the incorruptible, terrestrial body which will come at the same time of the rapture

The story of Lazarus and the rich man is also a reference point here. None of them was left to sleep in the grave.

Hebrews 10:26,27

26 For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning after once acquiring the knowledge of the Truth, there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward].
27 [There is nothing left for us then] but a kind of awful and fearful prospect and expectation of divine judgment and the fury of burning wrath and indignation which will consume those who put themselves in opposition [to God].

Well you sought for opinions, I can only say what the Bible says, not my personal opinion. Let's see the text in question

Deuteronomy 22 :5-12 (AMP)

5 The woman shall not wear that which pertains to a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment, for all that do so are an abomination to the Lord your God.
6 If a bird’s nest should chance to be before you in the way, in any tree or on the ground, with young ones or eggs, and the mother bird is sitting on the young or on the eggs, you shall not take the mother bird with the young...
8 When you build a new house, then you shall put a railing around your [flat] roof, so that no one may fall from there and bring guilt of blood upon your house.
9 You shall not plant your vineyard with two kinds of seed, lest the whole crop be forfeited [under this ban], the seed which you have sown and the yield of the vineyard forfeited to the sanctuary.
10 You shall not plow with an ox [a clean animal] and a donkey [unclean] together.
11 You shall not wear a garment of mingled stuff, wool and linen together.
12 You shall make yourself tassels on the four corners of your cloak with which you cover yourself.

All the others were mainly stated as commands and the repercussion seen is that of ceremonial uncleanness (vs 9). However, vs 5 and 8 are weighty .
Vs 5 states that all that do such are an abomination to God while the rest do not carry this intense declaration meaning it's more of a moral issue which remains valid in the NT.
That's why John in Revelations wrote under inspiration
Revelations 21:27

27 But nothing that defiles or profanes or is [d]unwashed shall ever enter it, nor anyone who commits abominations (unclean, detestable, morally repugnant things) or practices falsehood, but only those whose names are recorded in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Notice the highlighted.




The redemption in Christ applies to all that believe but the NT still defines sin as the transgression of the law(1 John3:4) and the Inspired writer puts it thus:
Galatians 2:17
17 But if, in our desire and endeavor to be justified in Christ [to be declared righteous and put in right standing with God wholly and solely through Christ], we have shown ourselves sinners also and convicted of sin, does that make Christ a minister (a party and contributor) to our sin? Banish the thought! [Of course not!]

Meaning we cannot hold on to acts that NT calls transgression of the law and claim redemption in Christ;repentance must precede saving faith while the former is informed by the understanding through the latter(faith).

EMILO2STAY:
there are no saints presently in heaven. They all lie asleep waiting for the resurrection

Not really, Hebrews 11:22,23 shows where the spirit of the saints are prior to the rapture (when the spirits will reunite with incorruptible bodies)

but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all,[b]and to the spirits of just men made perfect[/b]the church there refers to NT believers while the just men refers to the OT saints who, without the benefits of the NT, could not be made perfect (Hebrews 11:40)

MizJanet:

You xtians are very funny ,[color=#000099] all of you print jerseys and cards with the slogan " heaven is our target" yet you come here and tell us that your saints will inherit earth NOT heaven .

Not 'all of' us. You dont expect a t-shirt to detail all the eschatological happenings do you?! It's their way of summarising what will happen should they die.

** are u saying your saints that are said to be presently in heaven , including the apostles will still be deported back to inherit the earth ?
[/color]

Everything will be restored as it was in the beginning. (before the fall)

Barnabaseloka:
One truth that stares us in the face is that the things written in the Scriptures are true. Our denial to this truth comes when what is explained clearly from it goes contrary to what we have always believed to be true. When such comes, the question now becomes 'who compiled the bible?' This is to shift one's focus from the God's word and begin to talk history. All that is needed is for anyone to quote from the bible he/she has while others compare such quotes with what is written in their own bibles.

You are right. All Scripture is given by Inspiration of God hence should be our final authority in issues concerning Its contents.

italo:
No need to beat around the bush.

I said Jesus existed before Mary yet the Angel called Mary his "mother."

You asked me to show you biblical evidence and I showed you:

Matt 2:13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt.

You replied: "take the child is what was said bro."

Who is fooling who?

Is Mary the Mother of Jesus who is God? Yes or no?

Have you seen the verse where the Angel called Mary his mother? Yes or no?

(Yes or no? are two in number, the latter is shorn of the issue under discourse which the former carries) I will rather answer thus: The Word (Eternal from the beginning) was made flesh (not before stripping Himself of the Divine attributes as Philippians 2 reveals)and by the Power of the Spirit Mary was used as the human vehicle to bring Him to this world. While He (in the nature of man, Divinity being stripped) was a child, Mary was His mother.

However, the fact that He took of Divinity (philippians 2) already makes the title mother of God, void ab initio. Else why would Jesus pray thus

John 17:5

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

He was here praying for something to come (of course not before the cross) after His resurrection. The glory which He had to strip Himself of to become a man. Why pray? It's one of the ordinances (matthew 7:7) on which the world operates and He was not exempted.

Pr0ton:
How can a reasonable person take this as Mary's genealogy when it reads, "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli..."?

Women's name hardly appear in genealogies; in tracing the genealogy from Mother's side, the name of the son-in-law is used else Joseph cannot be the son of Heli and Jacob at the same time; he was son-in-law to Heli (or how many female names are found in that list?)

There was a flaw in my post that led to this misunderstanding. In Luke, Jesus died after the Passover Luke 22:13-20; Luke 22:66. In John, he died on the Passover John 19:14-30. I've corrected that. And still, an apparent contradiction.

The passover was not a day event it was a weeklong(and each week has its own sabbath) event see Exodus 12:14-17 Leviticus 23:5-7

And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever. 15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel. 16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you. 17 And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread;





5 On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord’s Passover.
6 On the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.
7 On the first day you shall have a holy “calling together;” you shall do no servile or laborious work on that day.
(AMP)

The two ran concurrently and the blanket word 'passover' must have been because the activities in the latter was a part of the former.

Some are the location where Jesus appeared to his disciples. Was it in Jerusalem as Luke says, or Galilee as Matthew says?

Jesus appeared to His disciples more than once after resurrection. Sometimes not all of them but only a few were present when He appeared.
Acts 1:3 shows that He was with them for forty days before Ascension.

3 To them also He showed Himself alive after His passion (His suffering in the garden and on the cross) by [a series of] many convincing demonstrations [unquestionable evidences and infallible proofs], appearing to them during forty days and talking [to them] about the things of the kingdom of God.
(AMP)

Did Jesus teach his sermon on the mount as Matthew says, or in the plain as Luke says?

It was on the Mount. The verse you are referring to in Luke, as regards the sermon on the mount, was commenced on another paragraph. Mark clarifies that after the disciples were chosen they all... Mark 3:19
19 and Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house.

Was the hometown of Joseph and Mary Bathelem as recorded in Matthew, or Nazareth as in Luke? Was Jesus born during the days of Herod as found in Matthew, or Quirinius as found in Luke? And many more.

Kindly specify these with quotes lest if I stated them, you claim that those were not the ones you had in mind.

MizJanet:

Hehehehe , you have left the MAIN POINT sir . Explained that statement itself "earth reserved for fire"

the fire will devour the things on earth (all man's creations as well as those that fall into the 6-day creation period) and not the earth itself.

Really? It will be empty and desolate , you have sucessfully contradict psalm 37:29

Yes after the battle of Gog and Magog the earth will be renewed (like it happened in Genesis 1) and there will be a new Heaven and Earth. That is what the saints will inherit.

As regards the Word, see Isaiah 34:16

16 Seek out of the book of the Lord and read: not one of these [details of prophecy] shall fail, none shall want and lack her mate [in fulfillment]. For the mouth [of the Lord] has commanded, and His Spirit has gathered them.

The speaking had to be done by holy vessels 2 Peter 1:21

21 For no prophecy ever originated because some man willed it [to do so—it never came by human impulse], but men spoke from God who were borne along (moved and impelled) by the Holy Spirit.

The compilation (gathering) was also by Divine influence hence the non-inspired (eg Apocrypha) were set aside. Hence the credit goes to the Personality mentioned. Just as God used the heathen king Cyrus to release His people and Caiaphas (in spite of his role in conspiring against Jesus) to prophesy of the vicarious death of Christ, we cannot assume that the teachings or interpretations of the compilers should be swallowed lock, stock and barrel without cross-checking it with the Word. But for people like Luther, Wycliffe(who ws martyred for his good cause!) etc, the bible will still be stashed up away available only to a few who will wrest its content at will.(like Tetzel the monk did)to deceive the masses .

italo:
I appreciate your smileys! Shows the right attitude to the discussion! Take the child was what was said bro! Pls read Philipians 2:6 - 8

You misunderstood my reply. I was trying to amplify that statement hence the quote from Philippians showing that He came shorn of the Divine Attributes. Of course the child did not fall from the sky!

MizJanet:
A student that read a contradictory textbook for exams cannot pass and infact such a student is not intelligent . Anything that contradict itself is a source of confusion.

Again, Anything that contradicts itself , is a source of confusion and therefore an intelligent person will never put his hope on such information.

Before i pronounce this subject as contradiction, I want you to personally view this three bible verses.

Here , the christian bible said earth is reserved for fire .


NET Bible
But by the same word the present
heavens and earth have been reserved
For fire , by being kept for the day of
judgment and destruction of the
ungodly.

This quote taken from 2 Peter 3:7
7 But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, by being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly(NET)

It clearly shows those that will be destroyed.

Let's see 2 Peter 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief; when it comes, the heavens will disappear with a horrific noise, and the celestial bodies will melt away in a blaze, and the earth and every deed done on it will be laid bare. (NET)
The heavens and celestial bodies will be destroyed and the earth will be laid bare (not destroyed, just made empty/desolate)

Revelations 21:23 agrees to this:

The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, because the glory of God lights it up,...

No contradiction there!

[color=purple]
Ecclesistes 1:4
English Standard Version
A generation goes, and a generation
Comes, but the earth remains forever
Psalm 104:5

King James Bible
Who laid the foundations of the earth,
that it should not be removed for ever.

Clarified!

Isaiah 53:8

Unjustly condemned,
he was led away.[b]
No one cared that he died without descendants,
that his life was cut short in midstream.[c]
But he was struck down
for the rebellion of my people

This prophecy (which describes other things that happened exactly the way it was prophesied) settles it. He was without descendants. No matter the age of the 'lost gospel' it remains a lie afterall, point 3 below took place few hours after His resurrection!

First some said He was not crucified;
Then some said He did not rise from the dead;
Others said His disciples stole Him while the soldiers slept;
Yet others said,"He has a devil"
Now some claim He was married with kids!

Only the Truth faces such a barrage of attacks. the father of lies wont spend all his arrows at anything else. Why should I take a contradictory 'manuscript' found about 15 centuries after Christ's coming serious? Especially when it contains info that had no place in the NT realities or OT prophecies.

Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ just like Peter , James and John. The latter group accepted and respected him as such. By the way it's not 'Paul's words'.

Any reason why the words he penned down under the Holy Spirit's inspiration should not be believed?

HopeAlive14:
God bless you, brother.

Glory to God, God bless you too!

OLAADEGBU:
Then can you kindly give us the scriptural reference that says when Solomon was in his grand old age?

I did not say the Bible said Solomon was in a grand old age, the point is his wives turned his heart when he became old and judgment came. All the events described in the book of Ecclesiastes are words of one who has seen it all; not a young man just starting out. The conclusion of the book in question states thus:
Ecclesiastes 12:12-14
12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Solomon would not have got to this conclusion as a young man and still hold on to the very things whose vanity he discovered (and by which he was led astray)! His marriage to strange women, as a young man, was against God's commandments; this conclusion could only have come from one with the benefit of hindsight.

italo:
Even after quoting the verse that says "take the child and his mother," you still lie openly and shamelessly.

How can any reasonable person discuss with you?

One question: In your protestant gatherings, do they pluck out the eyes and brains of the congregants?

No need to get worked up, which lie is that?

OLAADEGBU:
Remember the Scripture says this happened when he was old, so when did he come back to his senses.

At old age too! Moses was old when the call came (80 years old) and he still lived 40 years afterwards hence it is not impossible!

I appreciate your smileys! Shows the right attitude to the discussion!

italo:
Matt 2:13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt

So do you now agree that Mary is the mother of Jesus who is God?

Take the child was what was said bro! Pls read Philipians 2:6 - 8

6 Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [[b]possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not [c]think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped [d]or retained,
7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and [e]rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.
8 And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross!

When the Word became flesh, He was stripped of all Privileges of Deity.

In the Jewish culture, a Davidic King would have his mother as Queen rather than his wife.

Almost every time a new king is introduced in 1 and 2 Kings, the king’s mother is mentioned. She was a member of the royal court, wore a crown, sat on a throne, and shared in the king’s reign (2 Kings 24:12, 15; Jer. 13:18–20). She acted as counselor to her son (Prov. 31), an advocate of the people, and as an intercessor for the citizens of the kingdom (1 Kings 2:17–20). Since Jesus is a King based on the order of David, it makes sense that His mother would be called Queen.

The highlighted is not in scripture! It never said He'll be King based on the order of David!
This does not apply to Jesus in any way. His kingdom was not an earthly one!
Did Solomon sit at the right hand of David? But David prophesied saying:
Psalm 110:1

The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Where is Mary here? It seems you people are sharing the Glory between Christ and Mary! from sinless conception, to redemption and intercessory office even to the Throne!

In 1 Kings 2:20, Solomon said to his Mother Bathsheba, seated on a throne at his right, "Make your request, Mother, for I will not refuse you

But see
Hebrews 7:25
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Jesus does the intercession in Heaven , not Mary.

You choose not to find it in scripture because you have decided that the "called out ones" is the queen in heaven.

Ps 45:17 I will perpetuate your memory through all generations;
    therefore the nations will praise you for ever and ever.

Psalm 45:11 shows that the reference was one who was surrendered to the Lordship of Christ'

Psalm 45:11
so shall the king greatly desire thy beautywill this be said of a mother to her son!)
for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him.

This prophecy about the church used the imagery of how Ruth a moabite left her people and joined the people of God and how she became one of the ancestors of David. Mary did not need to leave her people!
The parable of the 10 virgins further shows how the Church (Bride of Christ) is considered.

Luke 1:48From now on all generations will call me blessed

Yes blessed for a one time, and not eternal, privilege of being used by God for His purpose. Just like Abraham is still regarded as blessed today!
Even Abraham who is expressedly called, in scripture, the father of those that believe is not thus adored!

Was it also the "called out ones" that spoke the above words in Luke 1?

Called out ones is a translation of the word ekklesia meaning Church.

You have decided that Israel is the one that carried Jesus in the womb and bore him.

Not my decision! Or have you also decided that Mary was given the wings of an eagle with which she fled to the wilderness!? (Elijah's chariots of fire led to heaven you know!)The book of Revelations uses these symbols in some places.

When the same Sun, moon and stars bowed to Joseph, was Joseph 'The nation of Israel?'

If you read the chapter and verse, you will see the time that the woman (Israel) will spend in the wilderness as confirmed by the length of the tribulation as shown in Daniel and Revelations viz 3 1/2 years. This surely has nothing to do with Mary but everything to do with the Israelites during the great tribulation!

Syncan:
keep denying truth. It is You that quoted Lk 11:27,28 "Now it occurred that as He was saying these things, a certain woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, Blessed (happy and [l]to be envied) is the womb that bore You and the breasts that You sucked! But He said, Blessed (happy and [m]to be envied) rather are those who hear the Word of God and obey and practice it! What the woman did was call her blessed and You claimed Jesus corrected this woman from exalting Mary. Now I have shown you why you are wrong with several scriptural backing in the post you quoted, Lk1:42,45,48, where the Holy Spirit through different media has said she is and is to be called blessed. Now you are explaining what calling her blessed mean, are you not arguing with yourself? I told you to Think, now am going to add harden not your heart.

Alright Syncan, who would you say is the author of the epistle to the Ephesians?

italo:
Jesus existed before Mary yet the Angel of the Lord called Mary his MOTHER.

Kindly show us where this is in the Bible.

Psalm 45:9 Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.

This is not Mary but the Bride of Christ, the Church, in prophecy. Proof? see

Psalm 45:10,11

Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear;
forget also thine own people, and thy father’s house;

11 so shall the king greatly desire thy beauty:
for he is thy Lord ; and worship thou him.

The reference is to the called out ones who have surrendered to the Lordship of Christ!

Revelations 19:7,8 explains further
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

12 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

This was a symbol of Israel hence the twelve stars on the crown are the 12 tribes. Revelations makes use of symbols just like Jesus is called the Lamb with Seven Horns (symbolizing perfection of Strength) etc Israel, being the nation through which the Messiah will come has been under intense attack from the dragon (satan).

See Revelations 12:14

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Note that it did not say she flew to[b] heaven but to the wilderness[/b]! During the great tribulation, the israelites will flee to the wilderness and the period mentioned is given 3.5 years![/quote]It is also written that Mary stands at the right of Jesus...and she is queen in heaven.[/quote]This is not found in the scripture!

Luke 1:38 is Mary's personal confession

38 Then Mary said, Behold, I am the handmaiden of the Lord; let it be done to me according to what you have said. And the angel left her.

Handmaid means female servant
Genesis 25:12; 29:29 etc
She understood that God was going to use her (as his servant) like He did Samuel, Samson, Gideon etc who He appeared to in the OT!

Now a similar issue played out in the time of Christ see Matthew 22:42 - 45

42 saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

Since John 1:2 tells us that all things were made by Him Who is the Word, how then does Mary become His mother? This issue reminds me of how the Israelites retained the brass serpent as an object of worship (idol) long after it had been discarded!

2 Kings 18:4
4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

Syncan:
Jesus could not have contradicted the Holy Spirit who spoke through the angel in Lk 1:42 "blessed are you among women". Jesus cannot contradict the Holy Spirit who spoke through Elizabeth in Lk 1:45 "and blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord". Jesus could not have contradicted the Holy Spirit who Spoke through Mary Lk 1:48 "henceforth all generations shall call me blessed". Think.

Calling her blessed is not the same as placing her on the pedestal of Him Who was from the beginning! How do you understand the Word - Blessed? The same word was used by Jesus in the beatitudes. Just like Noah, Mary found favour in the sight of God and the Lord used her like He's still doing with many others today.

Mary also was one of the recipients of the Holy Spirit on the day of pentecost, like every other disciple. In fact, apart from Acts 1, she was not mentioned as a prominent figure or an object of special adoration in the early church. When the issue in Acts 15 came up, (if she is to be reverenced like you do today) she will have been consulted but no!

Pr0ton:
Ok. I was expecting this. Now either the Holy Spirit inspired Matthew and didn't inspire the other writers (Luke, Mark and John), or it never inspired Matthew.

Didn't inspire the other writers in the sense that their story contradict. For example, the genealogy of Jesus in Luke contradicts Matthew's; the number of people who visited the tomb of Jesus are different in all accounts; Luke puts the death of Jesus before the day of Passover, while John puts it on the Passover etc. Take your choice.

The Genealogy of Matthew traced Christ's descent from Joseph while that of Luke traced it from Mary.

As regards the passover, the Lord's supper (before crucifixion) was held on the day of the passover (see Luke 22:13-23) hence it is not possible that Luke will at the same time say the crucifixion was before the passover!

As regards the number of those at the tomb, notice that the emphasis of the revelation to Paul was not peripherals such as the location of the supper or where John placed his head not even the name of the owner of the house, but matters relevant to redemption; the omission of a name by one, while not emphasizing the number involved by the other, does not necessarily mean a contradiction.