₦airaland Forum

KellamLeTorneau:
Overtime, there have been certain evidences that prove the bible has indeed undergone reconstruction which adulterates its originality and irrefutability. E.g the parts in genesis that speak of abraham riding a camel when camels did not exist in that part of the world back than. Or some verses that have admittedly been added into the bible and later removed. Or its conflict with the recovered dead sea scrolls. Presence of unidentified authors, the ways in which the teachings of paul contradict that of he who you claim to worship, some blatant in accuracies and contradictory comments in the bible, erotic p*orn in the bible, the list is long but this is just to name a few.

Kindly give us specifics with biblical and/or historical proofs (as regards the highlighted)! Any one can speak authoritatively on that which he has no specifics as proofs!

XXXXXXXXXXX:
All life comes from God. She testifies to that. Even the filthiest of the filthy, as we may say, come from God. Illegitimate children come from God, because He is the Giver and Author of Life.

As I posted that article you could see that the woman involved had conceived for her husband and still committed adultery with a black man within that same day , thus having two seeds in her womb at that time. Hence, she gave birth to a blonde boy and a dark skin boy.

Then explain the highlighted spoken before the woman was created
Genesis 2: 16,17
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, You may freely eat of every tree of the garden;
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and blessing and calamity you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.
18 Now the Lord God said, It is not good (sufficient, satisfactory) that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper (suitable, adapted, complementary) for him.

This clearly shows that,like other trees, there stood a tree with its own fruits which was forbidden for Adam(ever before Eve was formed) to eat from.

alansary0064:
PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh) IN THE BIBLE
by Dr. Zakir Naik
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the Old Testament:
The Qur’an mentions in Surah Al-Araf chapter 7
verse 157:
"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered
Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own
(scriptures) in the law and the Gospel".
1. MUHAMMAD (PBUH) PROPHESISED IN THE BOOK
OF DEUTERONOMY:
Almighty God speaks to Moses in Book of
Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:
"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their
brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in
his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all
that I shall command him."
The Christians say that this prophecy refers to
Jesus (pbuh) because Jesus (pbuh) was like
Moses (pbuh). Moses (pbuh) was a Jew, as well
as Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew. Moses (pbuh) was a
Prophet and Jesus (pbuh) was also a Prophet.
If these two are the only criteria for this prophecy
to be fulfilled, then all the Prophets of the Bible
who came after
Moses (pbuh) such as Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel,
Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist,
etc. (pbut) will
fulfill this prophecy since all were Jews as well
as prophets.
However, it is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who is
like Moses (pbuh):
i) Both had a father and a mother, while Jesus
(pbuh) was born miraculously without any male
intervention.
[Mathew 1:18 and Luke 1:35 and also Al-Qur'an
3:42-47]
ii) Both were married and had children. Jesus (pbuh)
according to the Bible did not marry nor had
children.
iii) Both died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh) has been
raised up alive. (4:157-158)
Muhammad (pbuh) is from among the brethren of
Moses (pbuh). Arabs are brethren of Jews.
Abraham (pbuh) had two sons: Ishmail and Isaac
(pbut). The Arabs are the descendants of Ishmail
(pbuh) and the Jews are the descendants of Isaac
(pbuh).

The prophesy by Moses referred to Jesus Christ as Prophet. Other prophets called Him Priest,King, Branch, Breaker, Messenger of the Covenant etc all pointing to His various roles. Even Jesus said
John 5:46 (Jesus speaking)
46 For if you believed and relied on Moses, you would believe and rely on Me, for he wrote about Me [personally].

Moses brought the Old testament Jesus came in fulfillment of the New Covenant. That is all that matters. Hence John (also a Jew/Israelite) said John 1:17
17 For while the Law was given through Moses, grace ([d]unearned, undeserved favor and spiritual blessing) and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Words in the mouth:
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was unlettered and
whatever revelations he received from Almighty
God he repeated them verbatim.
"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their
brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in
his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that
I shall command him."
[Deuteronomy 18:18]

This was why Jesus clearly said,

John 5:30
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me

and

John 8:26
I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

not forgetting

John12:49
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

iv) Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e.
they could inflict capital punishment. Jesus
(pbuh) said, "My kingdom is not of this
world." (John 18:36).

Kindly give two or three Bible quotes that declared Moses as a king! Elijah also inflicted capital punishment too;was he a king then?!

v) Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in
their lifetime but Jesus (pbuh) was rejected by
his
people. John chapter 1 verse 11 states, "He came
unto his own, but his own received him not."

Yes Moses was also rejected at his 'first coming' but accepted at his second coming at the appointed time; at the appointed time, Christ will come and the Israelites will be eagerly expecting Him.
Acts 7:35
This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.

iv) Both brought new laws and new regulations for
their people. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible
did not bring any new laws. (Mathew 5:17-18).

Moses brought laws as an integral part of the Old Covenant; Jesus brought grace as an Integral part of the New Covenant as promised by God through the prophets long before Christ came,in keeping with the promise made to Abraham!
John 1:17
17 For while the Law was given through Moses, grace ([d]unearned, undeserved favor and spiritual blessing) and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Luke 1:72-75
to perform the mercy promised to our fathers,
and to remember his holy covenant;
73 the oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 that he would grant unto us,
that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies
might serve him without fear,
75 in holiness and righteousness before him,
all the days of our life.

3. Muhammad (pbuh) is prophesised in the book of
Isaiah:
It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29
verse 12:
"And the book is delivered to him that is not
learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he
saith, I am not learned."
When Archangel Gabrail commanded Muhammad
(pbuh) by saying Iqra - "Read", he replied, "I am
not learned".

The context of the passage you are quoting has to do with the influence of a spirit of slumber/deep sleep (leading to spiritual blindness) on the Israelites due to sin see:
Isaiah 29:10-12
For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep,
and hath closed your eyes:
the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: 12 and the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

Taking a verse out of its contextual habitat is misleading.

4. prophet Muhammad (pbuh) mentioned by name in
the old testament:
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by
name in the Song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:
" Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim
Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."
"His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether
lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend,
O daughters
of Jerusalem."
In the Hebrew language im is added for respect.
Similarely im is added after the name of Prophet
Muhammad
(pbuh) to make it Muhammadim. In English
translation they have even translated the name of
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as "altogether
lovely", but in the Old Testament in Hebrew, the
name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is yet
present.

The Arabs and their arabic language existed centuries before hence if a hebrew word sounds like his name,it indicates nought.
In the Bible, if a person is to be referred to in the future by name (proper noun and not role) it will be mentioned directly. eg
1 Kings 13:2
2 And he cried against the altar in the word of the Lord, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the Lord; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men’s bones shall be burnt upon thee.
This prophecy of King Josiah was made around 931-910 BC, Josiah came around 640-609BC!
There are others.

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the New
Testament:
Al-Qur'an Chapter 61 Verse 6:
"And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said, 'O
Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah
(sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came)
before me and giving glad tidings of a messenger
to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmed.'
But when he came to them with clear signs, they
said, 'This is evident sorcery!' "
All the prophecies mentioned in the Old
Testament regarding Muhammad (pbuh) besides
applying to the Jews also hold good for the
Christians.
1. John chapter 14 verse 16:
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you
another Comforter, that he may abide with you
forever."
2. Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26:
"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will
send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of
truth, which
proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of
me."
3. Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 7:
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient
for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the
Comforter will not
come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him
unto you".

I am not surprised that the author of this piece omitted John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Greek word Periclytos . In the Gospel of John
14:16, 15:26, and 16:7. The word 'Comforter' is
used in the English translation for the Greek
word Paracletos which means advocate or a kind
friend rather than a comforter.
Paracletos is the warped reading for Periclytos .
Jesus (pbuh) actually prophesised Ahmed by
name. Even the
Greek word Paraclete refers to the Prophet (pbuh)
who is a mercy for all creatures.
Some Christians say that the Comforter
mentioned in these prophecies refers to the Holy
Sprit. They fail to realise
that the prophecy clearly says that only if Jesus
(pbuh) departs will the Comforter come.

Yes. Jesus affirmed that too
John 14:17
17 even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. The Holy Spirit was already with them but not in them as promised per the NT.
. The Holy Spirit was to come in fulfilling His role in the New Covenant as prophesied centuries ago by prophet Ezekiel
Ezekiel 36:27 (The Father speaking)
27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

4. Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 12-14:
"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye
cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the
Spirit of truth is
come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall
not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall
hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you
things to come. He shall glorify me".

The Spirit of Truth was to glorify Jesus Christ not classify Him as just another prophet!
2 Corinth 13:14
14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son Jesus, by Whom came grace and Truth and Who, after His resurrection and ascension, sent the Holy Spirit into the believers Who makes it possible for them to access and enjoy all that Jesus accomplished, revealing and glorifying Jesus to and through the believers. All in pursuance of the New Covenant prophesied and promised in the OT!

This is despicable but not surprising; such men and their victims have been spoken of beforehand


2 Peter 2: 1But also [in those days] there arose false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among yourselves, who will subtly and stealthily introduce heretical doctrines (destructive heresies), even denying and disowning the Lord Who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their immoral ways and lascivious doings; because of them the true Way will be maligned and defamed.
3 And in their covetousness (lust, greed) they will exploit you with false (cunning) arguments. From of old the sentence [of condemnation] for them has not been idle; their destruction (eternal misery) has not been asleep.
14 They have eyes full of harlotry, insatiable for sin. They beguile and bait and lure away unstable souls. Their hearts are trained in covetousness (lust, greed), [they are] children of a curse [[b]exposed to cursing]!
15 Forsaking the straight road they have gone astray; they have followed the way of Balaam [the son] of Beor, who loved the reward of wickedness.
19 They promise them liberty, when they themselves are the slaves of depravity and defilement—for by whatever anyone is made inferior or worse or is overcome, to that [person or thing] he is enslaved.

2 Timothy 3:6,7
6 For among them are those who worm their way into homes and captivate silly and weak-natured and spiritually dwarfed women, loaded down with [the burden of their] sins [and easily] swayed and led away by various evil desires and seductive impulses.
7 [These weak women will listen to anybody who will teach them]; they are forever inquiring and getting information, but are never able to arrive at a recognition and knowledge of the Truth.

plaetton:
Hhhmm.

So when Eve said " I have begotten a man for the Lord, I guess she was telling us that she had been impregnated by god himself as the biological father Of Seth.

Here is one of the inherent dangers in quotations from residual memory,
I dont find the highlighted in the Bible!

Perhaps you meant Genesis 4:1
And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.(KJV)
The passage leaves none in doubt as to who was responsible- Adam. (Children are the heritage of the Lord hence it's scripturally prosper for Eve to acknowledge the baby as a gift from God)


Eve never said that after the birth of Seth! The conception of Seth is clearly given
Genesis 2:25
25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.(KJV)

[quote author=XXXXXXXXXXX post=34417972][/quote]Then explain the highlighted spoken before the woman was created
Genesis 2: 16,17
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, You may freely eat of every tree of the garden;
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and blessing and calamity you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.
18 Now the Lord God said, It is not good (sufficient, satisfactory) that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper (suitable, adapted, complementary) for him.

[quote author=XXXXXXXXXXX post=34417972][/quote]Genesis 3:2-4
2 And the woman said to the serpent, We may eat the fruit from the trees of the garden,
3 Except the fruit from the tree which is in the middle of the garden. God has said, You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.
4 But the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die,

Your analysis seems to ignore the fact that they were in a garden with many other trees. The act of eating the fruit in this context is literal.

On issues like this, the following principles(more like laws or ordinances) apply:
1. Proverbs 10:4,5
He becometh poor that dealeth with a slack hand:
but the hand of the diligent maketh rich.
5 He that gathereth in summer is a wise son:
but he that sleepeth in harvest is a son that causeth shame.
Proverbs

Meaning a lazy believer would be satisfied with poverty while a diligent, hardworking unbeliever will be rich.

2. Psalm 75:6,7
For promotion cometh neither from the east,
nor from the west, nor from the south.
7 But God is the judge:
he putteth down one, and setteth up another.

Notice that it does not attribute promotion to the Fatherhood of God but to His justice; meaning we reap what we sow. If we are diligent, we'll be promoted. If we are not, another (though he be an unbeliever) will be promoted. The Judge of all the earth decides who deserves promotion according to His ordinances and laws. Now one of those laws is Matthew 6:33 but that does not render Proverbs 10:4(quoted in 1 above) redundant

3. Matthew 5:45
45 that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust

The resources for wealth/opportunities is given to both believers and unbelievers. We become rich by our use (or poor by our disuse) of these and we shall also be judged (at the end of time) by our abuse of these. Note that abuse may bring wealth (the world is depraved and perverted) but it also brings judgement.

4.Proverbs 21:25,26
25 The desire of the slothful killeth him;
for his hands refuse to labour.
26 He coveteth greedily all the day long:
but the righteous giveth and spareth not.

It's good to dream and desire and pray on these but the time must come when we roll our sleeves and get down to intense labour. Also note that giving (to the needy) is part of labour that will be rewarded as the Judge sees fit.

Being wealthy is not condemned by scripture but the get-rich-quick-at-all-costs disposition is what is condemned. A rational man desires to have wealth but it should not be a search for wealth at the expense of your relationship with God, spiritual responsibility and eternal destiny; a time might come when a choice must be made and the allure of the temptation is very strong hence the call to contentment. If with contentment, you continue diligently in a business, wealth will surely come as a disposable by-product ,and not as a lord.

1 Timothy 6:5-10(AMP)
5 And protracted wrangling and wearing discussion and perpetual friction among men who are corrupted in mind and bereft of the truth, who imagine that godliness or righteousness is a [c]source of profit [a moneymaking business, a means of livelihood]. From such withdraw.
6 [And it is, indeed, a source of immense profit, for] godliness accompanied with contentment (that contentment which is a sense of [d]inward sufficiency) is great and abundant gain.
7 For we brought nothing into the world, and obviously we cannot take anything out of the world;
8 But if we have food and clothing, with these we shall be content (satisfied).
9 But those who crave to be rich fall into temptation and a snare and into many foolish (useless, godless) and hurtful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction and miserable perishing.
10 For the love of money is a root of all evils; it is through this craving that some have been led astray and have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves through with many [e]acute [mental] pangs.


Earthly riches is not an automatic birthright such that we can toss and turn on the bed all day and get 6 - figure alerts, in hard currency, every other day!
2 Thessalonians 3:10
For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat

2 Timothy 2:5
5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned (by the Judge), except he strive lawfully.(Parenthesis mine) God gives power go get wealth but the striving (use of that power)lies with us.

XXXXXXXXXXX:
Genesis 4:1-2
And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD .
And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
[All life comes from God, whether conceived legitimately or illegitimately. Satan cannot create life.]

[God created Adam in His own image. Where did the wickedness of Cain come from, and where did the righteousness of Abel come from? Their attributes were inherited from their fathers.]

The highlighted shows who was responsible for Cain's conception.

Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam , prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
[Nowhere in the Bible is Cain in the lineage of Adam.]
culled from [url]themessage.com[/url]

The same applies to Abel as regards the highlighted! Seth's ancestral position in Israel made him relevant as most genealogies(from Jews' perspective) would naturally focus on that.

There are different “fruits” in the Bible. Of course, there is the literal fruit, like an apple, that grows and is consumed for food. There is also the fruit that refers to our works, whether it is natural works such as farming and business, or spiritual works such as performing miracles and preaching the Gospel. Then, there is the fruit of the womb, which refers to conception and childbirth.

What you are implying here contradicts the passage you are referring to.

Rilwayne001:
This is nothing but fallacy. If I grab your drift here, are you trying to say that since they (jews) did'nt question him about his compilation this particular genealogy, then automatically, it is not manipulated?

Of course! Besides, the jews in question had on some occasions discovered certain names not included in the genealogy (either by omission or if such was cut off) and requisite treatment was meted out. It's no new thing e.g.
Ezra 2:62
these sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.

It did not say they were not Israelites but at this point their name was not found in the genealogy. note the highlighted. A fallacy is what you have when a conclusion does not follow from its premise; this is no fallacy. The only grounds where a fallacy might be suggested would have been if, like the apocrypha, this book was rejected by those who knew better. A book written between 58-68 Ad/ce having in mind the jewish believers (who were very particular/finicky with such issues) as audience still stands till date when a 21st century person (not a jew and knows next to nothing about the genealogical practices of the Jews in the BCE) suddenly feels it was manipulated!! That implied conclusion of yours appears more like the fallacy!

From the birth of David to the birth of Christ is upwards of 1080 years; and as the lifetime of Christ is not included, there are but 27 full generations. To find therefore the average age of each person mentioned in the list, at the time his first son was born, it is only necessary to divide 1080 years by 27, which gives 40 years for each person. As the lifetime of man was then but the same extent it is now, it is an absurdity to suppose that 27 following generations should all be old bachelors, before they married; and the more so, when we are told, that Solomon, the next in succession to David

This could have been avoided if you followed the suggestion given in the last paragraph of my response. Consider this:

Joshua 2:10 clearly shows one of the basis of the measure of a generation (The life span of the contemporaries in each set, not necessarily when the main character passes on) . Based on this, I wont be surprised if names were not included since the point of Matthew is generations(not names per se) Joshua 2:8,10
8 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the Lord, died, being an hundred and ten years old.
10 And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the Lord, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel.

A resort to anachronism (which I tried to help avoid by the advice given) would be very subjective and would serve your purpose faster!

Really? This practice isn't normal, until you tell us the major reason why Mattew omitted Ahaziah, Athaliah , Jehoash , and Amaziah

The reply given to the previous paragraph answers this.(maybe not for you but to the unbiased reader who are my major concern anyway).

Now, here is another problem in Luke's genealogy. Between Shem and Abraham, Luke is clearly following the genealogy in Genesis 11:10-26. At one point, Luke adds a name not present in Genesis 11, namely Cainan.
This is Luke 3:34-36: the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, the son of CAINAN, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech

Is this also a practise

I am still trying to consider this but from my perception, Arphaxad may have had only daughters (it would also be strange that they all had sons all the time then!) Hence Cainan married one of them and gave birth to Shelah in raising up seed to Arphaxad(since the issue of inheritance was not involved at this time). The practice of raising up seed for a person was accepted then see
Genesis 38:8
And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother’s wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
Genesis 30:3
3 And she said, Behold my maid Bilhah, go in unto her; and she shall bear upon my knees, that I may also have children by her

This is another undiluted fallacy. You should show us where in the bible Belshazzar is refer to as Nebuchadnezzar's grand son. Aside from that, Roboam is recorded by Mattew as the son of Solomon not as the grandson of Solomon , why should Joram be different since we are following the same genealogy?

History gives us a postscript of these,
Belshazzar had been known only from the biblical Book of Daniel (chapters 5, 7– and from Xenophon’s Cyropaedia until 1854, when references to him were found in Babylonian cuneiform inscriptions. Though he is referred to in the Book of Daniel as the son of Nebuchadrezzar, the Babylonian inscriptions indicate that he was in fact the eldest son of Nabonidus, who was king of Babylon from 555 to 539, and of Nitocris, who was perhaps a daughter of Nebuchadrezzar. When Nabonidus went into exile (550), he entrusted Belshazzar with the throne and the major part of his army.(www.britannica.com) The highlighted shows that Nebuchadnezzar had no son hence the man that married his daughter (Nitocris) became king. Hence the reference to Belshazzar as his son was perfectly correct in keeping with the genealogical principles(quite similar to that of Israel but perhaps the involvement of royalty demands that Nabonidus' name be not included lest his kith and kin claim the throne for another in their family other than his son after his death) even though he was a grandson.

Rilwayne001:
[b] There are other problems. In some ways Matthew’s genealogy is the more remarkable because he stresses the numerological signifi cance of Jesus’ ancestry. From Abraham to David, Israel’s greatest king, there were fourteen generations; from David to the destruction of Judah by the Babylonians, Israel’s greatest disaster, there were fourteen generations; and from the Babylonian disaster to the birth of Jesus, fourteen generations (1:17). Fourteen, fourteen, and fourteen—it is almost as if God had planned it this way. In fact, for Matthew, he had. After every fourteen generations there occurs an enormously significant event. This must mean that Jesus—the fourteenth generation—is someone of very great importance to God. The problem is that the fourteen-fourteen-fourteen schema doesn’t actually work. If you read through the names carefully, you’ll see that in the third set of fourteen there are in fact only thirteen generations. Moreover, it is relatively easy to check Matthew’s genealogy against his source, the Hebrew Bible itself, which provides him with the names for his genealogy. It turns out that Matthew left out some names in the fourteen generations from David to the Babylonian disaster.

In 1:8 he indicates that Joram is the father of Uzziah. But we know from 1 Chronicles 3:10–12 that Joram was not Uzziah’s father, but his great-great-grandfather. 8 In other words, Matthew has dropped three generations from the genealogy. Why? The answer should be obvious. If he included all the generations, he would not be able to claim that something significant happened at every fourteenth generation. [/b]

Matthew's primary audience was the Jews - the very custodians of these genealogies- and, being an elite himself (receiver of customs) he will not have attempted a manipulation like you are implying,knowing that his audience were not ignorant of these genealogies and the principles followed in compiling them.
How many years make a generation in the context under consideration?(I need your answer)

Secondly, this practice was normal in genealogy. For example Belshazzar, Nebuchadnezzar's grand son was recorded as his son and the latter as his father, even though he was actually his grand father.Daniel 5:2,11,18.

I'd suggest you thoroughly research and perfect your understanding of how and what was involved in genealogy compilation and generation measurement,and the principles followed in both procedures as far back as the time you have referenced, before making your claims public.

I would verily have desired that you replied each of the questions (especially the first) not just this one.

Darkrebel666:
I lived with a Catholic priest throughout my college days which was also a mission school and a minor seminary.
you think I'm a novice in scriptural affairs and I would just vomit fallacy to prove a point?



In case you don't know the Bible always taught Geocentricity (which is that the Sun and planets revolve around the earth)

Rather the Bible teaches that there is continuous movement in the Solar system (all the components move).

Copernicus also exposed the falsehood of the bible in the 16th century by debunking the theory of geocentricity.
passages from some books in the bible like psalms and Joshua indicated the fixity of the Earth relative to
the Sun, but all of it was inaccurate and false.

This matter was dealt with (as far as I could) in another thread on ,"An Example of how science trails far behind the Bible"

there were many bible passages that also stated directly and indirectly that the earth is flat. . but that's gaffe cos the earth isn't flat..
all this puts a question mark on the plausibility of the bible..

Can you give the direct references? The direct reference I have about the earth's structure is Isaiah 40:22
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,
and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers;
that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain,
...
Others you may call indirect ones like the one quoted below, refer to the terra firma, the ground not the earth as a planet.

this is an excerpt saying the world in never to be moved. Is the earth fixated?

1 Chronicles 16:30
tremble before him, all earth; yea, the world
stands firm, never to be moved.

Others you may call indirect ones like the one quoted below, refer to the terra firma, the ground not the earth as a planet. That is why some of them talk of foundations pointing to the ground (unlike the water bodies).

these are bible excerpts stating that the Sun moves..does the sun move around the earth?

Joshua 10:12-13
Then spoke Joshua to the Lord in the day when
the Lord gave the Amorites over to the men of
Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, "Sun,
stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the
valley of Aijalon." And the sun stood still, and the
moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on
their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of
Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven,
and did not hasten to go down for about a whole
day.

Ecclesiastes 1:5
The sun rises and the sun goes down, and
hastens to the place where it rises.

In order not to derail this thread pls do the ffg:
1. Answer the first question I asked in my initial response to your post (I believe it is relevant to the Op); and
2. Refer to the thread I referenced above concerning Joshua etc

Darkrebel666:
I already debunked and exposed the falsehood of the Noah story since last year with a thread I created under a different cognomen... it left all the Christians clueless .
anyone with logic would have agreed.

so Noah came to Africa to gather a male and female elephant and cheetah , or he went to the Arctic to gather a male and female polar bear. hehe .

Alright then, give us your own version of the origin of species/life that would not involve a dispersion from a particular location! In other words such will mean all these tribes/animals appeared where they are!

in case you don't know, the earth can never be covered with water as Constantinople's book aka Bible puts it. hehehe ..

It would be more academically sound if you will give us reasons from science and history rather than giving authoritative conclusions bereft of premise from the aforestated.

the same clueless bible that said the earth rotates around the sun

Back this claim with a chapter and verse reference.

the same confused bible forgot the measurement it stated Noah's ark was couldn't have contained even one third of the animals in the world.

Your statement appears vague; give us specifics here! (And let your specifics compare and contrast the world at the 21st Century, and the ante-deluvian world.

so are you trying to say all the animals in existence now were taken into the ark? lmfao
how did they fit in?

Prove the highlighted with a reference.

anybody who believes the ark story needs to take the ALS challenge, see a psychiatrist then have his brain thoroughly scanned and rebooted. faith has put a veil on your iris and deadened your intelligence.

Open your eyes. Religion is only an invention of man

This includes many great scientists, inventors,academics etc! You are indeed in a conceited 'world of your own' where man is mentally perfect!! and revealed knowledge is non-existent.(Then I wonder why we then need experiments and research if this was so!)

Sweetnecta:
@scholar8200; I APPRECIATE YOUR EXPLANATION ABOVE AND WITHOUT BEING SUBJECTIVE AND I AM BEING OBJECTIVE IN THIS. BUT YOUR EXPLANATION DOES NOT CUT THE MUSTER. JOHN SAID WHEN HE WA BAPTIZING WITH WATER AND JESUS COMING TO HIM SO THAT HE CAN BE SO BAPTIZED WITH WATER BY JOHN TO SERVE THE PURPOE OF WHAT IT SERVES, THAT IS REMISSION OF SINS, JOHN SAID JESU WILL BAPTIZED WITH HOLY SPIRIT,. ETC.

JOHN DIDNT SAY JESUS WILL NOT BUT THROUGH HIM OTHERS WILL. I WILL SAY WHAT JOHN SAID ABOUT JESUS OF BAPTISM WITH HOLY SPIRIT DID NOT GET FULFILLED BECAUSE JESUS HIMSELF DIDNT BAPTIZE ANYONE INCLUDING HIS DISCIPLES WITH HOLY SPIRIT. THIS IS AN ACTION THAT JESUS SHOULD HAVE DONE WHILE ON EARTH WITH THEM NOT WHILE SOMEWHERE ELSE, LITERALLY.

Would you substantiate this from the Bible?

HERE IS THE REALITY FROM THE BIBLE. AT THE BAPTIZING OF JESUS BY JOHN, IT IS REPORTED THAT A VOICE WAS HEARD FROM ABOVE AND IT IS ASSUMED THAT THIS IS FROM GOD. IF JESUS WAS TO BAPTIZED FROM ABOVE WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT THEN A VOICE SHOULD BE HEARD AT THE EVENT. BUT NO VOICE WAS HEARD AND THIS BY ITSELF PROVES THAT BOTH JESUS AND JOHN FAILED ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE

Also prove this with scripture. Most of these are your opinions and they contradict that which is written!

INCIDENTALLY, IT IS REPORTED THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT SPOKE TO MANY INCLUDING PETER AT LATER DATE SO NO ONE CAN SAY OH THE HOLY SPIRIT CAN TALK IN AN AUDIBLE VOICE. THE BIBLE WRITERS GOOFED PLENTY. THEY MADE UP STUFFS AS THEY WENT ALONG. AND GOD EXPOSED THEIR DECEPTION WHICH CAN BE EASILY DISCOVERED BY THINKING PEOPLE. THEY SAY SOMETHING THAT MUST BE IN ACTION AT POINT A. BUT WHEN WE GET TO POINT A WHERE YOU EXPECT ACTION, NOTHING. THEN WHEN ACTION HAPPENED MY A DIFFERENT PERSON AT A DIFFERENT TIME THEY SAY THAT WAS IT FORGETTING THAT IT IS REALLY NOT IT BECAUSE PIECES OF THE PUZZLE DONT FIT.

Very strange! Where do you stand?

IF JESUS IN HEAVEN WAS ABLE TO SPEAK TO MR PAUL THE KILLER AND THE LAIR FOR THE GLORY OF GOD, WHY CAN JESUS SPEAK AT THE BAPTISM BY THE HOLY SPIRIT? THE REALITY IS THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A HUMAN AT ANOTHER PLACE IN ANOTHER TIME [MUHAMMAD [SA] IS HIS NAME]. HERE IS MY PROOF; IMAGINE A PHONE CALL FROM YOUR MOTHER THAT YOUR AUNT WILL BE COMING TO SEE YOU SUNDAY AND THERE WILL BE SOME GOODIES COMING ALONG WITH HER FOR YOU. ON SUNDAY YOU RECEIVED A VISIT FROM A WOMAN WHO IS RELATED TO YOUR DAD. THIS PERSON CAME IN WITH NO PACKAGE. INSTEAD ATE SOME OF YOUR FOOD. SINCE YOU ARE WEALTHY AND NOT STARVING, YOU ENJOYED THE COMPANY OF YOUR GUEST ANYHOW AND WAS ABOUT THE VISIT. 3 MONTHS WENT BYE AND WHEN YOU LEAST EXPECTED IT, AS A MATTER OF FACT, YOU ARE ON OFFICIAL ASSIGNMENT AND AWAY FROM YOUR OFFICE FOR ABOUT 3 WEEKS. DURING THIS WEEK, YOUR MOTHER'S YOUNGEST SISTER WHO IS YOUR FAVORITE AUNT CAME FOR A FEW DAYS AND ALONG WITH HER IS A PACKAGE OF GOODS THAT WAYS OVER 150 KGS. SHE SPENT 5 DAYS AT YOUR HOME AND YOUR YOUNGER BROTHER WAS THE ONLY ONE TO SEE HER BECAUSE OF YOUR OFFICIAL ASSIGNMENT IN ANOTHER STATE.

This is no proof ! Explain Luke 12:12 in the light of your 'proof'. (I have given mine below)
Luke 12:11-12(JESUS CHRIST Speaking)
11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:

12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

Fulfilled (one of the instances) Acts 4:6-9
6 Including Annas the high priest and Caiaphas and John and Alexander and all others who belonged to the high priestly relationship.
7 And they set the men in their midst and repeatedly demanded, By what sort of power or by what kind of authority did [such people as] you do this [healing]?
8 Then Peter, [because he was] filled with [and controlled by] the Holy Spirit, said to them, Rulers of the people and members of the council (the Sanhedrin),
9 If we are being put on trial [here] today and examined concerning a good deed done to benefit a feeble (helpless) cripple, by what means this man has been restored to health,
(AMP)

TURNING THE ISSUE AROUND TO GUIDANCE, THE JEWS WERE REPRESENTED IN THE TIME OF MUHAMMAD [SA] BY THE MANY JEWISH TRIBES THAT LIVED IN OLD YATRIB CITY THAT BECAME MADINAH. SO THE JEWS HEARD MUHAMMAD [SA] AND MANY LIKE IN THE LIFE OF EVERY PROPHET [AS] BELIEVED HIM AND SOME REMAINED DISBELIEVERS. AND IF YOU ASK ME, BAPTISM OR BEING BORN AGAIN IS TO SYMBOLICALLY MAKE A CONSCIOUS DECISION AT A POINT AND TIME IN YOUR LIFE TO TURN A GOOD SPIRITUAL LEAF, SHUNNING ALL KINDS OF ACTIONS OF EVIL, REBELLION AND DISBELIEF AND TURNING TO BELIEF AND KEEP UP THE STRUGGLE IN THAT STATE, SEEKING REPENTANCE WHEN YOU ERR

Now ustadh, JESUS( who first used that word 'born-again' gives us HIS definition and I believe that to be infinitely credible)
John 3:5
Jesus answered, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, unless a man is born of ... the Spirit, he cannot [ever] enter the kingdom of God.

There He is mentioned again - The Spirit and one of His multifarious roles in the New Covenant!

I AM PAUSING FOR A MOMENT TO REFLECT ABOUT THIS WAS ANGEL GABRIEL THAT WAS SENT TO MOSES [AS]. DID MOSES EXPERIENCE THE SAME TERRIFYING EXPERIENCES TO THAT OF THE FIRST ENCOUNTER OF THE NOBLE PROPHET [SA]? THE BIBLE IS QUITE ABOUT MANY THINGS. THIS IS ONE OF THEM. I AM WONDERING IF A SIMPLE MAN SUDDENLY SAY A MAN APPEARED IN FRONT OF HIM AS IF HE JUST CAME OUT OF A WALL OR SOMETHING, WHAT WILL BE HIS REACTION, EXCEPT FRIGHT? DEFINITELY MOSES MUST HAVE BEEN FRIGHTENED WHEN GOD SPOKE TO HIM THROUGH THE FLAME OF THE BURNING BUSH BECAUSE THE BUSH VEGETATION WAS NOT BURN, WHICH BY ITSELF A MIRACLE.

Ustadh, it wont be right to sound as though you know better than the people who were eye-witnesses to this very things!

John 7:37 - 39
37 Now on the final and most important day of the Feast, Jesus stood, and He cried in a loud voice, If any man is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink!
38 He who believes in Me [who cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Me] as the Scripture has said, From his innermost being shall flow [continuously] springs and rivers of living water.
39 But He was speaking here of the Spirit, Whom those who believed (trusted, had faith) in Him were afterward to receive. For the [Holy] Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified (raised to honor).

Jesus Himself said in John 16 that the Holy Spirit (in fulfilling His part in the New Covenant) would be sent by Him after His (Jesus') departure.

John 16:7
7 However, I am telling you nothing but the truth when I say it is profitable (good, expedient, advantageous) for you that I go away. Because if I do not go away, the Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Advocate, Intercessor, Strengthener, Standby) will not come to you [into close fellowship with you]; but if I go away, I will send Him to you [to be in close fellowship with you].(AMP). (In keeping with the promise made in the New Covenant!)

Besides, going by your argument, why would the mention of the Holy Spirit in one part of the Gospels/Bible differ from the meaning in another part of the same Gospel and/or in the whole Bible, within its contextual habitat?

Ifeann:
Good point..

the Muslims often create multiple accounts to attack Christian teachings and post nonsensical topics.

Notice the OP called me by name; and of course my dealings here has been predominantly with the Muslims. Some have 3 to 4 accounts, its hard to keep up. Its an exercise in futility to try and answer their questions especially one as easy as this.

It's true.

Ifeann:
Dude/lady u should not have bothered replying the op.

He is only interested in a silly argument, its common knowledge Adam and eve had several kids. He isn't interested in the answer to his asinine question.

He is now going to proceed by asking isn't this incest ?? Then u make another explanation about the realities of the time and he will come up with another silly argument about another aspect of the genesis narrative. Then u go on to explain that much of genesis is allegorical so we can understand it generation after generation. Then tomorrow he opens another thread asking the same questions.

Its not worth the effort.

Btw Mr OP I am not a pastor.

Noted, with thanks. Though the Op just joined NL yesterday so a benefit of doubt might be justifiable. Indeed there are who, if they had posted this, should be ignored.

Sveen:
Shame on all Nairaland pastors, ifeann and co.

Consider Genesis 5:4
4 After he had Seth, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. These daughters (together with the other sons whose names were not mentioned) do not necessarily follow after Seth. If you read the whole chapter, Cain and Abel were not included. It's not possible that after Cain and Abel, no other child was born. Considering the fact that the two were full grown men when they sacrificed, daughters born in between afterwards would also had become young women.
P.S. Not a NL pastor.

Babylon came to being as a nation after the flood when the people of the world were still of one tongue (before the great dispersion). Hence I should not be surprised if they have it in their historical archives. That the hebrew account was included in the Pentateuch by Moses should not come as a surprise; Shem (father of the Hebrews etc) was one of Noah's sons.

As regards the animals let me ask, what makes a duckling etc follow its mother everywhere but stop after a while? What makes the Hen seek to incubate or warm her eggs till they hatch? What makes a lioness feel she ought to feed her cubs? And why do ants store up food against the rainy day? Why is it that some rodents store nuts under the ground against winter and they never forget where it was kept? How is it possible for domestic animals to roam all day yet return to their cage, nest, pen etc
The answer- Instinct!

And have you heard of hybernation? Now I know not all animals do but it will be nothing to God to make this so for that period!


This instinct was God-given hence it will be nothing for God to move these animals, in the actual numbers God stated, inside the Ark.
Besides, the pre-deluvian period was a world with a comparatively few inhabitants all of one language hence it will be anachronistic to visualize that event from today's world view.

Babylon came to being as a nation after the flood when the people of the world were still of one tongue (before the great dispersion). Hence I should not be surprised if they have it in their historical archives. That the hebrew account was included in the Pentateuch by Moses should not come as a surprise; Shem (father of the Hebrews etc) was one of Noah's sons.

As regards the animals let me ask, what makes a duckling etc follow its mother everywhere but stop after a while? What makes the Hen seek to incubate or warm her eggs till they hatch? What makes a lioness feel she ought to feed her cubs? And why do ants store up food against the rainy day? Why is it that some rodents store nuts under the ground against winter and they never forget where it was kept? How is it possible for domestic animals to roam all day yet return to their cage, nest, pen etc
The answer- Instinct!
This instinct was God-given hence it will be nothing for God to move these animals, in the actual numbers God stated, inside the Ark.
Besides, the ante-deluvian period was a world with a comparatively few inhabitants all of one language hence it will be anachronistic to visualize that event from today's world view.

Sweetnecta:
^ is there a baptism at all by Jesus or by holy ghost? tell me who either baptized and how can you prove it.

Jesus expressedly stated that the disciples will be baptised with the Holy Ghost and that it was an event that will happen first at Jerusalem where they were to gather (subsequently anywhere where believers are)
Luke 24:49 (AMP)
49 And behold, I will send forth upon you what My Father has promised; but remain in the city [Jerusalem] until you are clothed with power from on high

This power was to be as a result of the coming of the Holy Spirit
Acts 1:8
8 But you shall receive power (ability, efficiency, and might) when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you shall be My witnesses in Jerusalem and all Judea and Samaria and to the ends (the very bounds) of the earth.

Jesus spoke all the above; John the baptist had earlier said of Jesus

Matthew 3:11
11 I indeed baptize you [c]in (with) water [d]because of repentance [that is, because of your [e]changing your minds for the better, heartily amending your ways, with abhorrence of your past sins]. But He Who is coming after me is mightier than I, Whose sandals I am not worthy or fit to take off or carry; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Ustadh,I believe this is clear enough.

Let's consider [Jesus speaking] Acts 1:5,"For John truly baptised with water, but you shall be baptised with the Holy Ghost not many days hence". I believe this clarifies the Person that Jesus referred to.

Daseed4:
U hav the brain, dt's why u knw my response can be termed as 'thoughts from without'. The truth is that u cnt relate perfectly wit God using ur head. Now, why is the brain given if its functions on spiritual isues are non-issues?

I'm surprised! You are not the reference. As regards the brain and spiritual issues, a lot can be said [with the heart man believes, not the head etc] but let's not derail your thread.

Also see cfcindia.com

NumberOne2:
Yes discouragement is a strong weapon. Lots of such (discourages ones) are here on NL claiming to be Atheist.
I refer to such as "religious dropouts". You can tell by the venom with which they attack God.
Blaming God for floods, fuel scracity, plane crashes and power outages.

When I read the Bible and see great men of faith (cloud of witnesses) and how they walked with God... this scripture comes to mind.

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." - Heb:12:1-2

Very true! And they all had their share of these things in higher intensities

NumberOne2:
Daseed4, since you claim to have opened this topic outside your original UserName, you should be able to open up and speak the truth. Instead you ask questions which a simple study of the Bible would have show you.

You say salvation came late. Look, even if Jesus died in the time of Noah, some will still reject Him just as you are doing now. So whose fault is that? Anas09 I think you are right. This guy is a fraud.


Thanks so much for this. You have good insight. Just what I was about to say.
I was also about to show him even the story of Jonah sent to Nineveh (non Jewish nation).

Glory to God. Actually we can't be too sure of the op. I am acquainted with one who, like John the Baptist, fell into the trap of the devil's most powerful weapon - discouragement (Not love of money, not laps of Delilah, not power and fame) and after falling have questioned everything till I could not but perceive they were really voicing thoughts suggested from without by he who shot the fiery dart in the first place. When a person persists long in that case, and folks around help drive the arrow deeper (the accuser knows how to make this happen), the result is what the op threatens.

Challenging! Notice that the same issues are fast eating away at the very life of Pentecostals:
1. Bible is laid aside as only the words/prophesies of 'daddy' is prominent;
2. Helplessness/powerlessness in the face of challenges- the Spirit (the believers Source of Power) has been ignored or grieved;
3. Good works as defined by church traditions/administrations are exalted and used as parameters to gauge spirituality and acceptance before God;
4. Fearing and respecting leadership more than God such that we will rather displease God to please the former; etc
Before we attack the Roman Catholics, we need to weep over these too.

I am not on NL to win arguments myself. I have had to take a walk when other users insisted on their claims.

Daseed4:
@Scholar8200, I'v never argued against God's word till today. I'm doing so now 'cause you challenged me. Note: I'm not willing to win this argument. Look at the following Ellicott's comentary on Roman 8.30...'Predestinate.—This is the
term which seems most to
interfere with human free-will.
Foreknowledge does not
interfere with free-will, because
the foreknowledge, though
prior in point of time, is
posterior in the order of
causation to the act of choice. A
man does not choose a certain
action because it is foreknown,
but it is foreknown because he
will choose it. Predestination
(the word is not inadequately
translated) appears to involve a
more rigorous necessity. All we
can say is that it must not be
interpreted in any sense that
excludes free-will. Free-will is a
postulate on which all the
superstructure of morals and
religion must rest. The religious
mind, looking back over the
course by which it has been
brought, sees in it
predominating the hand of God;
but however large the divine
element in salvation may be, it
must in the end be
apprehended by faith, which is
an act of free-will'.

The only thing that was foreordained or predestinated as regards man is his character. In spite of that, the predestination does not dictate to his will in other words, he can still choose another cause other than that predestinated. Now the character thus predestinated by God has an end and a consequence; that which might be chosen by man also has its end and consequence. See the following:

1.Ephesians 1:5
For He foreordained us (destined us, planned in love for us) to be adopted (revealed) as His own children through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the purpose of His will [[b]because it pleased Him and was His kind intent]—
2.Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are God’s [own] handiwork (His workmanship), [d]recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].
The two verses above shows that all the benefits of redemption were God's original plan , not because man fell, but before man fell. God had already planned it that way. Man's fall delayed it. Christ finally came and Man was restored to the place he was before he fell and God's plan at the beginning resumes.
No where in scripture does it say that a man would be predestined for backsliding and hell!

Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him as righteousness. 'We are justified by faith so that no man should boast. Jesus is our righteousness'. That means sins should nt be a condemning factor as long as you believe.

If the highlighted is your belief then I believe we are getting close to the source of your problem! We are saved from sin not in sin. Salvation is not a passport to travel the broadway with an assurance of entering through the narrow gate! Why are we commanded:
1) to examine ourselves lest we eat the Lord's supper unworthily?
2) to watch and pray lest that day come on us unawares?
3) to walk in the Spirit else spiritual death will occur?
4) to avoid the mistake of the 5 foolish virgins?
5) to forgive others else our prayers will not be answered?
6) Why did Christ in Revelations 2:20-24, declare certain unbearable judgement on some members of a church who persisted in sin? etc
Christians today believe satan is stronger than sin hence almost every body majors on an elusive deliverance while the converse is true(satan could only get Eve and Adam after they sinned not before;we cant mitigate the deadliness of sin and be safe! Do you know the meaning of," the sting of death is sin?" Take away the sting of a bee or scorpion and it becomes powerless.

God called only Abram of Ur of Chaldees and subsequently labelled others in the world then 'gentiles'. He should have called all of them and let see who rejects Him

This is wrong! Enoch, Noah etc shows us that everybody had his chance. In fact, those two were made preachers to warn their contemporaries. Who then do we blame? God? I trow not! Job was not a Jew too. The principle of God at the OT and pre - OT times is:
34 And Peter opened his mouth and said: Most certainly and thoroughly I now perceive and understand that God shows no partiality and is no respecter of persons,
35 But in every nation he who venerates and has a reverential fear for God, treating Him with worshipful obedience and living uprightly, is acceptable to Him and [e]sure of being received and welcomed [by Him].
Acts 10:34,35 (AMP) After the coming of Christ such, eg Cornelius, was led to the Truth.

Jesus prayed that Peter's faith fails not, but let Judas to his woes.

Did you say his woes?! This was one who Jesus openly exposed to the rest as the betrayer yet no repentance. A lot of warnings were made in the open yet no repentance? This was one who after he was chosen dissembled in his heart! He was the only one that never called Jesus Lord of all the disciples. Can you prove he was not prayed for? Moses interceded repeatedly for Israel; but for two, the rest of the older generation still perished in the wilderness! Why? they repented momentarily but never forsook their darling- the sin of murmuring and already,their hearts had gone back to Egypt. Judas had problem with covetousness and repeatedly stole from the bag (the disciples and Christ knew this). He must have been confronted atimes by He Who confronted the Pharisees. He betrayed Christ as a result of his covetousness.

Better still, an omniscient God shouldnt have called a known betrayer into His squad.

Peter also betrayed but he genuinely repented, Judas did not though he had the chance- God did not strike him dead after doing what he did!

God made man and expect few to follow Him and reserves the rest to languish in hell.

Matthew 25:41 ... Begone from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels! .Prepared originally for the devil and his angels,not man. But when man chooses to follow the devil, he chooses to share his destiny then. Simple justice.

If Holy Spirit(respect!) leaves a man, He never comes back.

Pls substantiate this with scripture. What then is the story of the prodigal son teaching?! Not to pre-empt you, first back that statement with at least two references

The plan of redemption took so long till the days of Abram. Now the inhabitants of the world before redemption plan materializes were automatically condemned to hell?

Enoch, Noah,etc are examples that refute your claim. Automatically condemned to hell?! (Good its a question). No. My reply that showed the Divine principle pre-Gospel age clarifies this.

God knows our hearts (by the way, we are responsible for what goes on therein) and the inclinations of our wills as a result of the state of our hearts.

See sermonindex.net

@mujahid1339, you (or whoever did the compilation) should be commended for the volume of work done! However, note that none of the above was done in promoting an ideology or a religion but for reasons of justice.Besides, why not break it down? I guess no one will read through the whole lot. I am surprised that you did not include the annihilation of Sodom and Gomorrah!

theAtheist101:
Sorry, I forgot you believe that a snake can talk, that Moses parted the Red Sea (!) with a stick, the same Moses used his stick to break a rock, and that the death of someone can cleanse you of your atrocities. Why wouldn't you believe two bears with an average speed of 30 mph can kill 42 young boys with an average speed of 14 mph each . I wouldn't want to waste my time writing mathematical proofs to someone who has no regards for empirical reasoning.

Stoning from over 42 children would kill these bears! The smallest of stones would inflict a damaging injury on these animals. But, yet again, you would claim god must have given these bears supernatural power to withstand the impacts from the stones. Then, I wonder why god/Elisha didn't just kill these kids directly without troubling his "super-bears". Note: The higher the number of boys the lesser the chance of these bears to come out of the attack alive.

Alright.

Daseed4:
I can't change my spiritual destiny. The bible says 'whoever is redeemed has been perfected to be so frm eternity'

Please give the book, chapter and verse for this.

He said 'for this purpose I raised Pharaoh, so that I might shew forth my praise among men'.

Judgement does not come to a nation and/or her king except their cup of iniquity has become full. Genesis 15:14 reveals that God's act with Pharaoh and Egypt was an act of justice. Just like Sodom, their cup was full and judgement came that way. I've said all these to point out to you that it is wrong to justify your belief that this is your predestination based on what was said in the verse you alluded to.

Now, I want to ask, is Pharaoh in heaven or hell now? If he's in hell, I'm bound to think he doesn't deserve to be in hell

I believe the above clarifies this..

I'm nt allowed to think to that level, 'cause a pot cannot say to the potter, 'what is this that you have made'.

When Paul wrote the passage this was paraphrased from, he made it clear that it's an assumption when he said, "what if". Paul had an issue with a thorn but he did not assume that it was his predestination but prayed and God answered him. Likewise it will be wrong to make assumptions of predestination.