₦airaland Forum

The Lord's prayer was given as a guide, not something to be recited or said by rote. Hence, you dont see either Jesus or the disciples or even the early church(see a sample prayer in Acts 4) reciting the Lord's prayer. Luke goes further to show us an example given by Christ in Luke 11 to underscore the need for specific petitions, absence of vain repetition sans heart or interest, definite faith that wont be denied and a willingness to wait till you are heard. Infact, the way some say the Lord's prayer, it becomes vain repetition because there's neither faith nor heart in it.

Nice write up Op. This is very timely! These are days when some are giving up the faith because God failed to be the ATM/Vending machine they were erroneously taught He was. God is a Father Who has our best at heart and knows if what we ask will be the best in the long run. Importunity and persistence is a proof of our faith. Though the duo may not be required all the time, simple faith will prevail then.

Sarassin:
I don't agree with any of the above, it is a re-writing of the gospel. Irrespective of how long prior the edict had been enacted, (and it is doubtful the Romans would wait a decade to execute an edict), parenthesis or not, Luke makes it abundantly clear that it was in execution of the edict that Mary and Joseph re-located and moreover, Mary was heavily pregnant, this places the birth of Jesus at around 6CE at the earliest! there is simply no way around this.
We can always agree to disagree.

Alright then, as my final submission, consider this, its and it's mean entirely different things; the removal of the apostrophe from one totally alters the thought being communicated. Likewise it will be grammatically wrong and subjective to disregard or dispense with the parentheses simply because the end of such an act satisfies your perspective( Luke makes it abundantly clear).

Use parentheses to include material that you want to de-emphasize or that wouldn't normally fit into the flow of your text but you want to include nonetheless. If the material within parentheses appears within a sentence, do not use a capital letter or period to punctuate that material, even if the material is itself a complete sentence. (A question mark or exclamation mark, however, might be appropriate and necessary.) If the material within your parentheses is written as a separate sentence (not included within another sentence), punctuate it as if it were a separate sentence. Eg,
Thirty-five years after his death, Robert Frost (we remember him at Kennedy's inauguration) remains America's favorite poet.
Thirty-five years after his death, Robert Frost (do you remember him?) remains America's favorite poet.
Thirty-five years after his death, Robert Frost remains America's favorite poet. (We remember him at Kennedy's inauguration.)
If the material is important enough, use some other means of including it within your text—even if it means writing another sentence. Note that parentheses tend to de-emphasize text whereas dashes tend to make material seem even more important.
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/parentheses.htm
Hence if the laws of grammar will be upheld, Matthew and Luke were in perfect agreement.
Thank you for your time.

Sarassin:
I am happy to concede the possibility that the decree of census by Emperor Augustus was made during the lifetime of Herod Antipas, but it changes nothing if we accept Matthews version of the birth narrative that places the birth of Jesus in the lifetime of Herod.

Do consider the bible quotes that were the last sentence in my last post. Let's summarise them: John's conception took place while Herod was reigning (Luke 1:5) Jesus' conception took place around 6 months after John's (Luke 1:36). Mary left Elizabeth's place 3 months pregnant (Luke 1:56) all this took place in the year 6 BCE. Since Herod died 4 BCE, then we can safely conclude that: 1. Matthew was right; Herod was alive when Jesus was born; 2. Luke's record was right because the reference to Quirinus in vs 2 did not render vs 1 redundant, rather it was parenthesised meaning it was only a PS showing that the decree, though enacted earlier, was carried out at a much later time after herod's death thus clarifying the fact that the decree mentioned was not carried out immediately after it was made though the parents of Jesus had relocated.

I see no justification to state that Luke 2:2 implies a future action (census) there is nothing to suggest that Quirinius had not been appointed at the time events were playing out. Luke already places Quirinius in-situ, on the scene and he nails it down by stating in 2v5 that Mary was expecting, during the period. What period was this ? this is the period Joseph and Mary depart Nazareth for Bethlehem, the reason for this departure ? to attend a registration conducted by Quirinius who arrived in Judea circa 6CE

Luke 2:1 tells us that,"... It came to pass that in those days, there went out a decree from ... Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. This shows the actual setting the writer had in mind, vs 3-5 continues from vs 1, vs 2 was not included to correct or modify vs 1; rather it differentiates between when the decree was made and when it was actually executed.

Luke 1v5 merely compounds the monumental error Luke committed by placing the census of Quirinius in the lifetime of Herod.

No. Rather it underscores the reason why 2:2 is in parenthesis viz not as a continuation of Vs 1 but just a historical postscript. Furthermore, understand that Luke was not writing to the unlettered but to a royalty [Luke 1:3] whose intelligence about these things cannot be manipulated.

Sarassin:
I am afraid the problem still persists, There is no evidence that Herod was alive when the decree was given by Augustus. In actual fact Quirinius was instructed to dispose of Archelaus’ (Herod’s son) estate and to impose taxation on the Jews which led to a great ruckus.
In the New Testament, the Gospel of Luke account of the birth of Jesus links it to this census[1] but also locates it during the reign of Herod the Great,[2] which ended a decade earlier.[3] The account in the Gospel of Matthew

I appreciate your patience here. Note that,
The Census of Quirinius was the enrollment of population of the Roman provinces of Syria and Judaea, for tax purposes, in 6/7 CE. The Census was taken during the reign of Augustus (27 BCE – 14 CE), when Publius Sulpicius Quirinius was appointed governor of Syria, after the banishment of Herod Archelaus from the Tetrarchy of Judea and the imposition of direct Roman rule.(culled from Wikipedia)
I believe the foregoing shows that the census could have been decreed at a time when Herod was alive (since he died 4 BCE, 23 years into the reign of Augustus). Hence Quirinus was enlisted as an executor of the decree already given,much later ie. when Archelaus had succeeded his father not before. This also justifies Matthew's position in the sense that Herod was still alive after the birth of Christ but he later died and Archelaus his son succeeded him.

Luke 2:2 makes it clear that Quirinius was Governor of Syria and conducted the census, We know from Josephus that Quirinius arrived Judea no earlier than 6CE. Luke 2:5 makes it clear Mary was expecting, meaning that possibly the birth of Jesus could have been as late as 7CE. Herod was long dead and buried by the time Mary gave birth....according to Luke.

Note that Luke 2:2 was placed in parenthesis meaning it was included as an historical footnote (and can be omitted in reading sans disruption of line of thought) to show that the census was executed at a time in the future when Quirinus had became a ruler. The implication is that at the time the scenario in Luke 2 was playing out, he was yet to be appointed. This is further confirmed by Luke 1:5
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judæa, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia:
The highlighted shows that Herod was alive all through the scenario described regarding conception by Elizabeth and Mary. Matthew further shows that at the time Mary visited Elizabeth, she had taken in. This is because Mary had already been espoused to Joseph and the latter had shelved his initial plan after his discovery of her being pregnant. Matthew 1:18, Luke 1:27
27 to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost
And Mary visited Elizabeth after the visit of the angel and she was espoused to Joseph before the visit of the angel!

POPdecorator:
That means xtian can drink as they want?nope

Nice job op! Anyone truly saved by grace does not struggle not to drink; he simply loses the desire to drink (though the tempter may still tempt,he by grace will be victorious)

Sarassin:
I have not given 16BCE as the date of passing of Herod, I gave 6BCE as the earliest possible date Herod would have passed since Josephus stated “Herod had been dead fully Ten years” before Quirinius was mandated to conduct the registration in 6CE.

Herod may well have died in 4BCE it goes to buttress my point. Note that the date Josephus gives for the census/registration is 6CE not BCE it is not in dispute, Roman records confirm this. The problem is Luke states that Mary was “expecting” at the time Quirinus began to conduct the registration in 6CE therefore, assuming Luke is right then necessarily Matthew is clearly wrong and vice-versa. Matthew places the date of birth of Jesus to at least 6BCE (allowing for the two year gap during which Herod ordered all toddlers killed)

Luke dates the birth of Jesus to around 6CE (when Quirinius conducted the census)
Matthew dates the birth to around 6 BCE (before the death of Herod at 4BCE)

10 years apart.

Sorry I didnt notice. Hence, my assumption in the penultimate post stands correct, meaning:
Augustus gave the decree, Herod was alive when the decree was made, Joseph and Mary(being set for delivery) headed to Bethlehem, Jesus was born (around 6-4BCE), they went to Egypt, Herod died while they were away (4 BCE), they returned to Nazareth and Jesus grew there; 6CE, Quirinus was mandated to execute the decree (this historical postscript has nought to do with the events afore stated. Luke only specified that the decree though given earlier, was actually effected later by Quirinus) Observe the quote below
Luke 2:1,2
2 About this time Caesar Augustus, the Roman emperor, decreed that a census should be taken throughout the world. 2 (This census was taken when Quirinius was governor of Syria.)

.

Sarassin:
I don't agree with your summary. Josephus gives us dates and placement, we know that a tax registration was ordered by the Romans and Quirinius mandated to carry it out in the year 6CE, Roman records attest this. We know also that ten years prior to this edict by 6BCE, Herod had died.

If we accept the narrative of Luke, then the birth of Jesus would be dated no earlier than 6CE which is the year we know the census was ordered and Mary was expecting at that time, further if we accept your explanation that the registration was delayed by a few years....then Jesus could possibly have been born much later.

Matthew however firmly places the birth of Jesus under the reign of Herod, we know that Herod was dead by 6BCE, therefore allowing for the fact that he ordered all children under the age of Two murdered, according to Matthew the birth date of Jesus would have been no later than 4BCE.

Therefore at the time Luke claims Jesus was born, during the time of Quirinius, Jesus, according to Matthew would have been at least 12 y ears old and possibly older if we factor in your explanation. Both accounts cannot be right in my view, unfortunately both could be wrong.

The record I have from wikipedia shows rather that Herod died 4 BCE,not 16 BCE.
Herod died in Jericho.[16] Since the work of Emil Schürer in 1896[43] most scholars have agreed that Herod died at the end of March or early April in 4 BCE.[44][45]

Evidence for the 4 BCE date is provided by the fact that Herod's sons, between whom his kingdom was divided, dated their rule from 4 BCE,[46] and Archelaus apparently also exercised royal authority during Herod's lifetime.[47] Josephus states that Philip the Tetrarch's death took place after a 37-year reign, in the 20th year of Tiberius (34 CE).[48]

Josephus tells us that Herod died after a lunar eclipse.[49] He gives an account of events between this eclipse and his death, and between his death and Passover. An eclipse[50] took place on March 13, 4 BCE,[17] about 29 days before Passover, and this eclipse is usually taken to be the one referred to by Josephus.(culled from Wikipedia)
Hence this sets the records straight and justifies both Matthew and Luke.
Mary gave birth to Jesus while Herod was alive around the time the decree was being executed in 6BCE(this corrects my assumption in the first post); Mary and Joseph fled to Egypt and were there till 4 BCE when Herod died. Joseph and Mary left Egypt for Nazareth where Christ had His childhood. I had not checked the issue of dates b4 my first reply.

Lizabeth25:
Thank you.

Glory to God.

malvisguy212:
thanks man, God bless you.

Glory to God! God bless you too.

Sarassin:
I am inclined to go with the historian. As an example, Josephus records that Quirinius, (Roman Senator) ordered a tax registration in the year 6CE, fully Ten years after the death of Herod, Roman records agree with him.The Gospel writer Luke however places the birth of Jesus and the “census” of Quirinius during the reign of Herod, which is quite impossible, historically Luke got a lot of his facts badly wrong.

Kindly note this, Luke 2:1,2
2 In those days[b] Caesar Augustus issued a decree[/b] that a census should be taken of the entire world. 2 (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.) 3 And everyone went to their own town to register.

Meaning the decree came from Augustus and everybody relocated but the actual census did not commence at the same time but after a while under Quirinius. Remember that Roman empire was like the world power then hence there will be a considerable space between the decree and execution! The world was involved and you will agree with me that verse 3 will take a while; not just a village was involved. And the fact that Joseph & Mary had to flee to Egypt after the birth of Christ shows that the time lag, perhaps due to the logistics involved, was the general expectation.

vfactor:
It Depends. God doesn't just grant forgiveness cos u asked alone. He grants cos u've repented, felt bad for what u ve done and felt a need to ask for forgiveness. He alone is able to see a man's heart to know when this conditions are satisfied. But you can rest assured that he able and just to forgive repentant wrongdoers.

Thanks for the highlighted! These are days when people claim to 'repent' and at the same point remind God that they will still do the same things they are repenting of ! What mockery! (No leader will take a subordinate that does so serious)

malvisguy212:
if you read from verse one you will understand,yes ,the Bible does teach predestination, but not the kind that Calvinists teach.God
pre-determined, not the IDENTITY of
the saved, but the CHARACTER of the
saved.

INDEED! The Character thus predestinated was part of the Image and Likeness of God in which man was made, was lost after the fall, but is restored to ANY who repents and surrenders to Christ today.

The passage quoted simply underscores the fact that mercy is never deserved. But God never denied any man mercy who sought Him for it. Even the most idolatrous king Manasseh to cruel Ahab, and the people of Nineveh, etc they obtained mercy when they sought it with sincere repentance. However if we take the mercy for granted judgement will come like it did to Nineveh and Ahab.

zodiakzax:
this message was meant for you not the other person. You are right and don't mind the op he is only making fun of the bible and doenst know the scriptures. Keep up the good work. It takes those who are in Christ to fully comprehend the Holy Trinity.

Glory to God

malvisguy212:
Weldon brother, lovely reply. Nice to have you around.

Glory to God.

Appleyard:
Thats right Brother. For the word of God interprete itself. The plural form 'us' was used when God said 'let us make man in our own image'. Then He went on to interprete His own word.. ''and God made man in His own image''. Not 'their' but 'His'. That is God interpreting himself.

You are wrong mister! God was not soliloquizing! Interpreting Himself to who?! Pls dont get me wrong. Read the entire text and quote me before you reply! I am not a party to the heresy you forged up there! The import of my post you quoted was that the Triune nature of God was copied by the pagan religion most of which sprung up after the flood. The US therefore relates to Three Persons that ARE ONE!
Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;

Also consider the crystal clear statement John 16:28
28 I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

I believe this is clear enough.

jikjimmy2:
Now where lies your confusion.

How do you mean?

Zoharariel:
BTW; below are my most favourite biblical contradictions

1.) Exodus 34:7 says - Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

But Contrary to this, the Book of Ezekiel (18:20) says, “Son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him”.

No contradiction there!
Let's see Ezekiel 18:14-19
14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father’s sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like, 15 that hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour’s wife, 16 neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,... hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live. 18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
Meaning the judgement will be carried forward only if the son continues in the father's sins. God is also a God of Justice hence Exodus 34:7 is not in spite of the son's endeavour to live right.

2.) According to mathew 16:27-28; (For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom)

This statement has definitely been wrongly attributed to Jesus, because all those "standing here", died nearly two thousand years ago, and none of them saw the Son of Man coming into his kingdom.

The clarity of that verse hangs on the word 'see'. It implies vision- an activity for the eyes only . Compare this to the actual experience described in Matthew 25:31-34,"
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father;[b] take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you [/b]since the creation of the world.
The reference in Matthew 16:28 spoke about seeing; not the same as possessing or partaking. Peter described and underscored this in 2 Peter 1:16-17
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. [/b]17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”[b] 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

3.) In Mathew 10:23; Jesus said - But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Again this is obviously wrong as the disciples have, long, long ago, done their duty of going over the cities of Israel, but the Son of Man never came with his kingdom.

The context of that quote is made clearer by Luke 10:1
After this the Lord appointed seventy-two[a] others [b]and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. Meaning they were directed to go to places He intended on visiting as well. Else it should have been reiterated in Mark 16:15

4.) It is said in John 3:13 that (And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven).

This is also incorrect, as is evident from Genesis 5:24 (Enoch Ascended) and 2 Kings 2:11 (Elijah Ascended).

Would you mind quoting Genesis 5:24 and graciously highlight the words in parentheses? Abel, Seth... Abraham...Thief on the Cross all went to Paradise (Third Heaven 2 Corinth 12:2,4) they either died and went there or were caught up. The passage you quoted speaks of Heaven Matthew 5:34b where God's Throne is; no record of any man being there before redemption through Christ.

5.) Genesis 17:1 says: I am the Almighty God; While in Judges 1:19 we read this statement: And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

God, who is not powerful enough to drive out people simply because they had chariots of iron, cannot claim to be Almighty.

In the days of Moses the people refused to continue because of giants inspite of assurance from Caleb & Joshua of God's ability to grant victory; the time of Joshua the Israelites feared chariots of iron Joshua 17:16; The highlighted was not attributed to God being unable rather it points to the unbelief of the people mentioned afterall see:
Judges 4:3,14,15,23
3 Because he had nine hundred chariots fitted with iron and had cruelly oppressed the Israelites for twenty years, they cried to the Lord for help.
7 I will lead Sisera, the commander of Jabin’s army, with his chariots and his troops to the Kishon River and give him into your hands.’”

13 Sisera summoned from Harosheth Haggoyim to the Kishon River[b] all his men and his nine hundred chariots fitted with iron.[/b]

14 Then Deborah said to Barak, “Go! This is the day the Lord has given Sisera into your hands. Has not the Lord gone ahead of you?” So Barak went down Mount Tabor, with ten thousand men following him.
At Barak’s advance, the Lord routed Sisera and all his chariots and army by the sword, and Sisera got down from his chariot and fled on foot.

16[b] Barak pursued the chariots and army as far as Harosheth Haggoyim, and all Sisera’s troops fell by the sword;

23 On that day God subdued Jabin king of Canaan before the Israelites.[/b] God only goes with us as far as our faith!

brownjulie:
1... is it right/biblical to pray for our enemies to die
2... When praying should we plead or command things to happen?

1. We wrestle not with flesh & blood;our true enemy is the devil hence it is not only wrong to command death on physical enemies but it exposes you to the wrong spirit Luke 9:54,55,56
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.
It is God's prerogative to decide who dies and when. In fact Jesus said to forgive else our prayers will be hindered because we remain with guilt.
Mark 11:25

2. It's best to start seeking God on the basis of a promise(s), if your heart is in the prayer, you will be led if the need to command arises. At such,you wont need to command for hours! Just a command given (at His behest) will do.

Bakrabas:
Number1, The Bible, in the book of Obadiah,1:1 of KJV reports that, a RUMOUR is being heard from God. What a calculated insult on His Majesty! Even, when I was in Primary school, my teacher taught me that "RUMOURS ARE CARRIED BY HATERS, SPREAD BY FOOLS, AND ACCEPTED BY IDIOTS."

The issue you have is that the Authorised version was derived from the ancient texts in 1611. Not all english words used then exist today. Some still do but their semantic field/spellings may not exactly be the same.
Obadiah 1 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Coming Judgment on Edom
1 The vision of Obadiah.
Thus says the Lord God concerning Edom
(We have heard a report from the Lord,
And a messenger has been sent among the nations, saying,
“Arise, and let us rise up against her for battle”):

Number2, Contradictions and inconsistencies mar all versions of the Bible, including most original manuscripts.

The Jehovah Witnesses, in their "AWAKE MAGAZINE" of 1957 edition, revealed that, "There are 50,000 errors in the Bible" while, the 32 eminent scholars of the Bible, with the cooperating 52 denominations reported at the preface of Revised Standard Version (RSV), that, "the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible has grave defects, and the defects are so many and so serious as to call for revision" This is shocking and sensational. WHAT A BOMBSHELL !

Do me a favor;since you have an access to the quote of the 32 scholars, specify some of those 'defects'. I am not surprised the JWs will say that. They are not even true followers of Christ! At least they exalt the words of their leader more than that of Christ.

Number3, The Bible contains many ill-befitting attributes of God:

God Is Who He reveals Himself to be and not our conceptualization or expectation of what we 'expect' Him to be except we would forge our own gods!

(2) God came down to see the city and the tower built by men.-Genesis,11:5;

Just like He came down to deliver the children of Israel.
Exodus3:7,8 "And the Lord said: “I have surely seen the oppression of My people who are in Egypt, and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters, for I know their sorrows. 8 So I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians," What ethics or code of office did He violate here that makes it "un-befitting"

(3) After creating the Heavens & the Earth for six days, God became tired, weak and exhausted. He (God) therefore rested and was refreshed.-Exodus,31:17;

The highlighted was your addition/opinion. I dont find that in the reference you quoted!

(4) God created a female without breasts in the Bible.-Song of Solomon,8:8;

As regards the highlighted and point 3, its not best that you include your own embellishments where non exists just to score a point!

God says in the Bible, "...you cannot see my face, for no one shall see me and live" -Exodus,33:20 

"Thus, the LORD used to speak to Moses, FACE to FACE, as a man speaks to his friend" -Exodus,33:11.

It's good you already helped by the first verse you quoted! The second will be better understood when you see Numbers 12:8
8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

"So, Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying "I have seen God FACE to FACE, yet [/b]my life is preserved" -Genesis,32:30.

The highlighted is meant to be 'and' not 'yet'. In the bible times and today, prayer was also called seeking God's face symbolically waiting on Him to experience His favour. Hear God speak in 2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and [b]seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." Jacob prayed all through the night, went through a struggle with a personality and broke through,in prayer,to the answer he sought hence the declaration.
Other passages talks of seeking Him and finding Him not meaning they found Him physically but they obtained from Him what they sought.
2 Chronicles 15:15
15 And all Judah rejoiced at the oath: for they had sworn with all their heart, and sought Him with their whole desire; and He was found of them: and the Lord gave them rest round about.

If this really happened then note that there are wolves in sheep's clothing but out of the abundance of their heart they will speak and be known for what they are!

Aye Op, He sure never fails: The ever present Help in times of trouble.

The Bible clearly states that Isaiah 40:13 Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord,
Or as His counselor has taught Him?
If it be so,the statement found in Genesis 1:26,27 clarifies this matter because God could not have been talking to angels, they were not made in His Image and Likeness!
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all[b] the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him;

Hence, the pagan religions (most of which started after the flood eg Nimrod/Osiris/Tammuz worship by Semiramis; the latter actually cloned/counterfeited her religion from the promise of the Messiah God made in Geneis 3:15 etc) copied from this truth just as their father the devil does to the things of God. How do I know this? The Bible clarifies that the invisible things of God and His Godhead were revealed by God from the creation of the world Romans 1:20,21-23
20 For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],
21 Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and [c]godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.
22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves].
23 And by them the glory and majesty and excellence of the immortal God were exchanged for and represented by images, resembling mortal man and birds and beasts and reptiles.

Now as regards the Us in Genesis 1:26, consider the following.
Psalm 104:30
30 When You send forth Your Spirit . . ., they are created, and You replenish the face of the ground.(explains why the Spirit moved on the waters in the beginning)
Isaiah 40:28
28 Have you not known? Have you not heard? The everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth
John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.
2 He was present originally with God.
3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.
The above verses clarifies the statement made in Genesis 1:26, creation was attributed to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit not as 3 gods but One note this ," in the image of God He (not they) created him"
. This aspect of the Divine nature is what was known and prostituted by the pagan religions and ignored by the others
,

truthman2012:
This is a clear proof of Jesus death. Prophesised and fulfilled. Glory to God in the highest.

Amen. Even after Ascension and Coronation He said, "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." (Revelation 1:18).

Presbulg:
It's in the Quran

4:171-172 "O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say Of Allah ought but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, And His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and the Spirit proceeding From Him: so believe In Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above Having a son. To Him (Allah) Belong all things in the heavens And on earth. And enough Is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

quote]4:156-159 "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ[ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against hem

Mark 10:32-34 Jesus' own Words before the cross
32 They were now on the way up to Jerusalem, and Jesus was walking ahead of them. The disciples were filled with awe, and the people following behind were overwhelmed with fear. Taking the twelve disciples aside, Jesus once more began to describe everything that was about to happen to him. 33 “Listen,” he said, “we’re going up to Jerusalem, where the Son of Man[h] will be betrayed to the leading priests and the teachers of religious law. They will sentence him to die and hand him over to the Romans.[i] 34 They will mock him, spit on him, flog him with a whip, and kill him, but after three days he will rise again.”

Isaiah 53:5-11 God's revelation to Isaiah about the Messiah
5 But he was pierced for our rebellion,
crushed for our sins.
He was beaten so we could be whole.
He was whipped so we could be healed.
6 All of us, like sheep, have strayed away.
We have left God’s paths to follow our own.
Yet the Lord laid on him
the sins of us all.
7 He was oppressed and treated harshly,
yet he never said a word.
He was led like a lamb to the slaughter.
And as a sheep is silent before the shearers,
he did not open his mouth.
8 Unjustly condemned,
he was led away.
No one cared that he died without descendants,
that his life was cut short in midstream.[c]
But he was struck down
for the rebellion of my people.
9 He had done no wrong
and had never deceived anyone.
[b]But he was buried like a criminal;
he was put in a rich man’s grave.
and the Lord’s good plan will prosper in his hands.
11 When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish,
he will be satisfied.
Luke 24:46,47 Jesus' words after resurrection
46 And he said, “Yes, it was written long ago that the Messiah would suffer and die and rise from the dead on the third day. 47 It was also written that this message would be proclaimed in the authority of his name to all the nations,[f] beginning in Jerusalem: ‘There is forgiveness of sins for all who repent.’ 48 You are witnesses of all these things.

ROSSIKE:
I can't believe you mentioned Alexander. There is COPIOUS evidence of Alexander's existence from a variety of sources. Even though he lived nearly 400 years before Jesus was allegedly born we have statues of him. We know what he looked like. We know about his military rampage through Asia and north Africa. We know he was tutored by Aristotle. We know his father was Phillip II, a king. There are numerous documents, contemporaneous and otherwise attesting to his existence. So there is no way anyone would demand 'proof of Alexander's existence'. There is ample proof. NOT SO with the bible characters like 'Jesus'.

Alright friend you accept all those- statues,numerous documents,history of military exploits,- as ample proof for Alexander but not for the Bible characters?! Statues of an emperor that was the world power in about 3 centuries to the end of the BC era can be expected.

The items afore-listed can be furnished by the Greeks likewise can the Israelites do same for theirs; though I fear your assizes wont be fair to them still.

The last king in Israel/Judah reigned around 597 BCE and were not world emperors. Solomon who had a widespread popularity died 931 BC ( almost 6 centuries before Alexander; remember that the nation in question was conquered and led to captivity hence most artefacts, statues would be wiped out etc In fact they were dispersed for a long time and just regained nationhood in 1948)and David died much earlier. Hence with such a history, chronicles,scrolls of history written by scribes, genealogies, tribal symbols and extant, historical places would suffice as proof using your standard.

Sarassin:
Clearly, I disagree,I find the historical records of Josephus far more interesting. It is perfectly acceptable to be inspired but it does not therefore follow that whatever Luke wrote was infallible. Historically the Gospel of Luke is the least reliable of the synoptics, it would be fair to say the author drew on the accounts of Matthew and Mark, embellished their stories and where necessary made subtle almost imperceptible alterations.

In the Acts,there are substantial historical inconsistencies in Luke’s account with respect to events placements and timings, some of which point to the fact that actually Josephus may have been a source for Luke. Doctrinally on many occasions the accounts of Paul presented by Luke does not reflect Paul’s own accounts of his beliefs in my view, but I digress from the OP .

I assume you are quoting 2 Peter1: 21

Thanks for the correction regarding the highlighted. Although I would have loved to take you up, I suggest we focus on the topic at hand for now.

Sarassin:
And actually you are quite wrong, Josephus lived 37CE -100CE, and not half a century after the death of Jesus as you state. He was contemporary to what would have been the time of the biblical NT events, further as an historian his sources and recordings were impeccable, he was contemporary to the lifetime of the Apostle Paul for instance, and studied under Gamaliel. He recorded nothing about Paul but he had a lot to say about a "Herodian" prince named Saulus, it is largely down to Josephus that we can separate salient fact from biblical fable, for instance it is clear that a lot of the accounts recorded in the “acts of the Apostles” as recorded by Luke are completely inaccurate. Josephus gives us placement with direct dates and context. To state that Josephus is not a credible witness simply beggars belief.

Josephus is a respected historian but when it comes to the Acts I will choose Luke's reason being that the latter was a fellow traveller with Paul, (of whom Josephus did not know much,like you said) and the same Luke was inspired to write the Gospel named after him not as a historian but as one who had perfect knowledge of the things he wrote being inspired as 2 Peter 1:22 states.

ROSSIKE:
Firstly, no one claimed Israelis as a people did not exist a millenia ago. Second, that Netanyahu or whomever quoted Amos does not mean Amos existed. People quote Jesus, Moses, Jacob, Mary etc all the time. That doesn't mean any of them ever lived. People claim in their ''holy books'' that ''God said'', and ''God did''. Doesn't mean God had anything to do with it. Fact is if you are going to claim that you have a holy book which God himself directed, you're going to need AT LEAST evidence that the actors in that book actually lived. The absence of such fundamental evidence suggests grand fabrication. Don't try to rope ancient Africans into your debacle. Ancient Africans never claimed God visited and spoke to them. If God did interract with them, we would similarly demand hard evidence that that was the case. Sorry... the ball is in your court to PROVE your fantastic claims about God dwelling among your people.

Let's remain with the focus of your topic shall we? Hence the reference to africans is still very much admissible for our purposes. like you would ask a Greek today to prove that Alexander the great (353 - 326 BC) ever existed and his burial ground else he was a fictitious character? And your reference to Amos as being none existent...?

You commenced your post by declaring a conclusion...What's the basis of that conclusion? What primary and secondary sources informed your conclusion after all those who claim their descent/ancestry from the Israelites in the bible are still alive? What historical/ archaeological texts , objectively studied, furnished your literature review? Or did you just say, "I think it is thus hence it is thus?" Having arrived at that 'conclusion' , same is released for debate purposes? I thought science demands that such conclusions will come, swaddled in well referenced positions selected at random and not with a biased outlook?

XketchDesigns:
Which is more accurate?

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: John 17:1

25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any:Mark 11:25

SOS 3:1 By night on my bed I sought him whom my soul loveth: I sought him, but I found him not.

Nehemiah 1:4 4 And it came to pass, when I heard these words, that I sat down and wept, and mourned certain days, and fasted, and prayed before the God of heaven

Any posture can be adopted for prayer what matters is that the heart be in the praying.

9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: Isaiah 26:9.
I believe the irritant that displeases God is the vain repetition and prayers by rote and not from the heart.

Secondly, the books of the OT clearly prophesying the death and resurrection of Christ and the NT where Jesus reiterated His death and resurrection were written some millenia b4 this knee jerk 'discovery'. Logically, the former supersedes the latter by all means.

Well there exists a nation of Israel today and the OT captures a large part of their national history. Else why would the Israeli PM quote directly from the prophesy of Amos in the UN general assembly if the author and book were fictitious? The information age makes it possible to connect with one of them (Israelites) if you need firsthand information on the issue you have raised. (NL has more of naira spenders as members so you may not get much.).

Secondly, archaeological review may also be of help. Most of those events occurred a number of millenia(BC & AD) ago.

I guess no african can intelligently give you their version of what you seek concerning the Israel nation. Of course Africans existed in the BC millenia and the present generation of africans can be traced to the BC generation of which nothing is known.Now it will be mental denial to say they(BC africans) never existed since we have no proof, reference (burial ground etc) with which to identify them. However, I will be grateful if you can vouchsafe me with info on their names and where those BC millenia africans were buried.Or just identify what used to be the cemetery for subsaharan africans in a period say 1000 BC.