₦airaland Forum

.

^^The Bible is God's message neither to angels nor devils but man. Hence, I cannot answer that question.

udatso:
Now you are bringing a totally different example here. We were talking about this your post below.




In this example above, we talked about rebuking for correction so that the son or brother would be loveable again. But in this your recent example it's not about rebuking him to be loves again but to be rebuked forever. Hellfire.

God does not rebuke that you may become lovable. He rebukes because He loves. Now, is hell fire a place of rebuke? or a place one gets to as a result of the choices made on earth?

Let's face reality here. This isnt nollywood. In most cases(if not all) , if a dad is the judge of a family member's case, the Judge would be disqualified and the Case handed to another judge due to the fact that emotions and compromise are in play here. Even if the judge is allowed to precide over the case, if it comes to capital punishment for the son, I doubt a father would do such. He would rather withdraw and have another judge make such decisions.

That is as far as man is concerned. Man may withdraw/compromise judgement due to emotion etc but not with God. For example, David was a man after God's heart, but did God spare him from the consequence of his adultery and murder? Of Solomon, it was written:
and he called his name Solomon: and the Lord loved him.(2 Samuel 12:24b), but was he spared when he descended to idolatry?

Which is Why I am trying to make you understand that the moment you call such unconditional, anything is possible. God is love as expressed in the Bible, but that doesnt mean that's All He is. God equally hates. He has said it in the Bible in so many verses ....here are some of them

Psalm 5:4-6
4 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil;
with you the wicked cannot dwell.
5 The arrogant cannot stand in your presence;
you hate all who do wrong.

6 You destroy those who tell lies;
bloodthirsty and deceitful men
the LORD abhors.

Psalm 11:5
5 The LORD examines the righteous,
but the wicked and those who love violence
his soul hates.[/quote]Indeed, God is angry with the wicked everyday (Psalm 7:11), but that does not negate the fact that He, in love, withholds deserved judgement with the expectation that they will repent

The Lord does not delay and is not tardy or slow about what He promises, according to some people’s conception of slowness, but He is long-suffering (extraordinarily patient) toward you, not desiring that any should perish, but that all should turn to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9

and also

11 Say to them, As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?
Ezekiel 33:11

Now see love exuding therefrom! The Lord hates the wicked in the same way a parent will be very grieved and upset towards a child he/she loves but is bent on going the path of self-destruction! How do i know this? If it is a case of animosity or malice, then God would simply wipe them out sans chance or room/hope for repentance.

udatso:
Why don't we also look at the verse 9-12
8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

11 Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.

12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the Lord thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:

13 And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.





My point here isn'twhether He later lived them, but the fact that there was a condition for them to be loved. That's the obvious truth we can't run away from

And what condition did they fulfill here before the highlighted was said:
7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the Lord loved you,
Deuteronomy 7:7,8a

Hear God:

When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.


4[b] I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love[/b]: and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I laid meat unto them.
Hosea 11:1-4

The use of a child there is to illustrate the nature of love: a father does not love his kids because of some conditions they fulfill!

udatso:
Here's another condition in the for the Bible God Love in the old testament
Deuteronomy 7:12-13

IF you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them (condition statement) then the LORD your God will keep his covenant of love with you, (execution statement) as he swore to your forefathers. He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land-your grain, new wine and oil-the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land that he swore to your forefathers to give you.

Speaking of covenant. But let's see this:

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 7:7,8

This was said before they even entered the land of promise. At this time were they faithful and obedient people? NO. See the condition of their hearts:

for I know their imagination which they go about, [size=14pt]even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.[/size]

And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.


Deuteronomy 31:21b,16

Yet HE loved them still and commanded a song to be written that will serve as both a warning and a remembrance.

udatso:
I think your comparison is flawed. If a parent disciplines a child, it's for correction purpose. But is it Thesame when a non believer will be in hellfire for ever? How will he learn from his mistake?

But the person chose hell when he chose to reject God inspite of all attempts to discourage that choice?!

A father does all he can to make sure his kids get educated but they choose to play truants and eventually become criminals/murderers and land in court, turns out their father was also the judge and he sentences them to death (the consequence of their actions as prescribed by the law), would you still blame the father for not loving them?

DID THE FATHER HATE THE SON WHEN HE MADE HIM BEAR THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE SIN OF THE WORLD?NO!

YES, HE WITHDREW HIS PRESENCE BUT DID HE WITHDRAW HIS LOVE? NO!

46 that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Matthew 27:46b


Now you may say God made the laws in this case but would you assume that love = lawlessness/nihilistic indulgence? Or that Love is meant to make us escape the consequence of our choices to be unconditional?

Seun:
Matthew 24:11 - And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Indeed many are being deceived.

But the existence of the false prophets implies there are true prophets too and what they teach and the miracles they do are true!

But wait, that video shows no miracles!This thread is not properly named!

All I see is just emotional charging. Bring a video where actual miracles took place and the analysis of how they were faked was given!

My fear is how Niger Delta will build up the confidence of Foreign investors after the storm has settled and their demands met.

OgundeleT:
if of has a room for truth then it will be stated and in such a case we don't call such a love unconditional, but a conditional love. if you love your child unconditionally you don't need to give such a child law since if he/she err u cant hurt or punish the child because irrespective of the condition you will always love the child

So, a law such as,"dont stay out late at night" given because the father knows the dangers that the child might be exposed to is a sign of a conditional love? I dont think so. Rather it is a sign of love. If the child disobeys and gets attacked, will you count that a punishment from the father?

i wont, but i will call such a love a conditional one and the proper one because such a father must have let the child know the conditions involve and the penalties

Rather I see it as an expression of love that realizes that there are more than just you too in the whole universe and not all loves the child just as the father does! Besides the father's unconditional love calls for the rebuke. The father does not rebuke the son so that the latter would change and become lovable; he rebukes because he loves the son so much and would not bear to watch him destroy himself!

these are conditions and whoever wrote it for his/her child before loving such a child has given conditions and we can no more call it unconditional love.
so if god exist and love it is unconditional

You rebuke your brother because you love him, crystal clear!

Not that you rebuke your brother so that he can become lovable when he changes. This is clear enough.

OgundeleT:
a god that love unconditionally don't need law or doctrine and will never judge anybody

This your definition of love looks like love has no room for truth!

Would you consider a father unloving if he whacks/sternly rebukes a son bent on following the path of self-destruction? Love expresses itself, among others, by rebuke , correction and instruction for the good of the receiver.

17 [size=15pt]Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart[/size]: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

Leviticus 19:17

OgundeleT:
a god that love unconditionally don't need law or doctrine and will never judge anybody

This your definition of love looks like love has no room for truth!

Would you consider a father unloving if he whacks/sternly rebukes a son bent on following the path of self-destruction? Love expresses itself by rebuke , correction and instruction for the good of the receiver.

udatso:
Scholar8200 malvisguy212
Now that we have established that God will punish the unbelievers on judgement day, can we still say God loves them as He punishes them?

On judgement day, they will be allowed to face the consequence of the choice they made as it will be unjust to deny them while allowing the devil! They chose the way of the devil and would justly be released to share his destination! Would God do this in hatred? NO! He loves them, but would not be unjust towards ANY!

malvisguy212:
so what is the difference ? If you proclaim christ at the point of death and trusting on God against any physical mean, what's the difference ? I trust God with ALL my heart, and when the time comes to prove this, by his grace I will.

There is indeed nothing new under the sun, Herod lives on! If Jesus were physically on Earth and the op made this challenge, Jesus wont have done anything!

And when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceeding glad: for he was desirous to see him of a long season, because he had heard many things of him; and [size=15pt]he hoped to have seen some miracle done by him[/size].

9 Then he questioned with him in many words; [size=14pt]but he answered him nothing[/size].
Luke 23:8,9

folks that approach him today with similar mindset get the same response.

malvisguy212:
YESSS, the prodigal son, exactly, thank you my brother. God bless. Long time.

Indeed, long time! God bless you too.

udatso:
The Webster dictionary defines unconditional as
not limited in any way : complete and absolute

According to Wikipedia Unconditional love is known as affection without any limitations, it can also be love without conditions. This term is sometimes associated with other terms such as true altruism, or complete love.

Based on my confrontations with Christians, I have come to realise that the meanings of some English words might be explained differently or according to the Bible which may not be exactly what it is in English language.

On multiple occasions, many Christians usually ask Muslims to prove that there's love in the Quran, or love for the unbelievers. When the proof is brought forth, we are further requested to bring proof of unconditional love.
In most cases, we have made them understand that even though God loves all (evident in his Mercies, favours, provisions....for all Muslims or non Muslims ), the unbelievers would be punished if they die as unbelievers. This is usually followed by the Christians preaching unconditional love....how God loves the sinner, non Christians and all. These comments bring us to some very disturbing questions

1. What is unconditional love in Christianity ?


2. If there's punishment for non Christians for not accepting Christ as their personal lord and Savior, is it still right to call this love unconditional?

3. If there Isn't punishment for non Christians , why bother preaching the word of God to them if at the end of the day, we all make heaven?

I will stop here for now. Your answers might trigger other questions

It would be much appreciated if these answers are provided with biblical verses

I wish you got a quote from those who used the term, at least that's where I would have loved to start from. What I know is that of Grace that we do not work for nor deserve but when received (by Faith in Jesus Christ) transforms our lives. This Grace is unlimited - not given by measure nor with prejudice.

Would you mind telling us which passage your respondents normally coin that term-unconditional love -from?

But considering the Love of God, I would refer you to the parable of the prodigal son.

Did the father love the prodigal son? Yes! Did the father's love prevent the prodigal from the consequences of his decision? NO! If the prodigal had refused to return to the father and died in the field among the swines, do we blame the father for not loving the prodigal son as a father should? NO!
But the prodigal returns to the father and we see a Love that yearns after the rebellious and does all possible to influence his decision homewards but remember, he is a free moral agent and the Father will not violate that principle by use of force !

Does God love those who rejects Christ? Yes. Does His Love mean He will alter His Justice to accommodate their rebellion? NO (else satan deserves an unreserved apology and a reinstatement!). If a man rejects God's revelation about Jesus and dies and finds himself in the devil's destination, who do we blame? The man!

Op, ye know not the Scriptures neither the Power (may I add the Pleasure of His Presence) of God!

I would have left this thread alone so that you and your fellow Theophobes may have fun, but for your mentioning my username.

Lilbrown007:
why all this are U Now Implying That God is Not All Powerful??

He is All Powerful and also All-Wise hence the part that speaks of His Order in creation. Why destroy the devil and evil, as an alternative, immediately and claim the others have free moral agency? When what you actually offer is a Hobson's choice?

emusmithy:
You know he's an humble man and wouldn't blow his trumpet. It was in their Camp site at Lagos-Ibadan express way.

Alright.

emusmithy:
Wow!

Happy Birthday, Sir!

Deeper life was going to commence work on their landed property outside Lagos. The villagers told Pst Kumuyi that there is an evil snake (boar) in that forest which makes it impossible for them to start up any work. Workers already there, retreated in fear. He alone walked in that forest. Of course, that evil serpent (unusually huge) crawled out and stood up at him, peered deep into his eyes and slowly excused him to pass. He knowing the serpent was dead...went back and informed the labourers that it's dead. They all fearfully strolled in and saw a dead snake. Fear caught them all.


Truly:

[21] When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: [22] But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.

Heard this before but did it actually happen?

Lilbrown007:
Nope No One Has Answered It Yet

Evil as I defined it is an alternative open to all creatures. It will be against God's order to destroy the devil and evil as an alternative immediately.

The present scheme of things is an allowance for the playing out of evil (and the devil as its father) as an alternative till the time when, as an alternative,it exhausts itself, and God makes a full end thereof.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Daniel 7:24

Recall that after the fall, Adam and Eve were sent out of the Garden ,"lest they eat the Tree of Life and live forever" in that fallen state. This implies that there could be a state , for man, where it will no longer be a case of free moral agency but an Eternal experience of a choice made.

Ranchhoddas:
What makes you sure that the people in paradise will not use their freewill to sin again?

Good question! Being in Heaven at the end of time will be as much an irreversible consequence of a choice as being out of it!

Lilbrown007:
How Can Something Exist And Not Be Created

The basic Biblical description of evil is departing from God.

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Hebrew 3:12

When Adam and eve did so, the effect was seen from Cain to other descendants



Departing from God is an alternative available to all things created. Acts of wickedness and deception are the result of that choice when it is made.

On why God has not destroyed the devil, I believe lordnicklaus' parable answers you.

Osegancy:
That's what you just displayed..... ...Shallow Thinking and Infantility.... You need to know more in the Bible especially the hidden parts

The following statements in the Bible are attributed to Jesus Christ (pbuh):
(i) "My Father is greater than I." [The Bible, John 14:28]
(ii) "My Father is greater than all." [The Bible, John 10:29]
(iii) "…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…." [The Bible, Mathew 12:28]
(iv) "…I with the finger of God cast out devils…." [The Bible, Luke 11:20]
(v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30] 2. The Mission of Jesus Christ (pbuh) – to Fulfill the Law Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity for himself.

That's because as of the time He said all that you quoted, this had happened:

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth
John 1:14

When this was done, it is written that:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and [size=14pt]took upon him the form of a servant[/size]
8 And being found in fashion as a man, [size=14pt]he humbled himself[/size], and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phil 2:7,8

Further studies on His becoming a Servant is Isaiah 53:1-12

Meanwhile His Divinity was clearly referenced in John 17: 1-5 when praying to the Father, which agrees with John 1:1

Op, you just won yourself an all expense paid trip to see the tomb of that document:

https://www.nairaland.com/2912069/gospel-barnabas-laid-rest

Feel free to take pictures while there!

Weah96:
Were Africans not slaves in the US for 400 years?

Under the same terms as Pharaoh's?

What do you mean when you say Empty barrel lives?

Sarassin:
You are conflating the two issues;

Yes Tertullian did in fact coin the term “Trinity” Tertullian taught that (1) there is one God only; (2) God exists in three distinct persons (whether or not eternally is yet to be seen); (3) these three are equal in being and attributes.

But Tertullian’s teachings largely apologetic in nature relied heavily on the relational language of Scripture to demonstrate the unity and yet separateness of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit according to HIM. NOT scriptural verse.

Your assumption that.

The addition to 1 John 5:7-8 came largely as a result of Tertullian’s apologetics. If that verse existed in its entirety why would Tertullian need to append an apologetic for what was self-evident?

Because there was many errors eg Sabellianism that were flying around! Now, if there was no direct Scriptural quote -1 John 5:7- an apologetic would be misplaced since it will be taken as his opinion! Besides, Tertullian in Adversus Praexas focused St John's Gospel as the sub-title shows:

Against Praxeas by Tertullian
Chapter XXV.--The Paraclete, or Holy Ghost He is Distinct from the Father and the Son as to Their Personal Existence. One and Inseparable from Them as to Their Divine Nature. Other Quotations Out of St. John's Gospel



I just discovered:

("Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another. These three are one [thing], not one [Person], as it is said, 'I and my Father are One,' in respect of unity of substance not singularity of number.".

http://www.tertullian.org/works/adversus_praxean.htm



My, my, Sarassin! you left out that preceding part and did not include any ellipses in its place neither included a source lest you be discovered!!!

Sarassin:
Here are the relevant words of Tertullian ;
... Qui tres unum sunt, non unus, quomodo dictum est, Ego et Pater unum sumus, ....
In English:
"These three are one [thing], not one [Person], as it is said, 'I and my Father are One,' in respect of unity of substance not singularity of number."

UNMISTAKABLY, HE WAS SPEAKING BASED ON 1 JOHN 5:7!!!

HardMirror:
Funny how I can control people remotely scholar8200. I just hypnotized u enjoy ur quick little chat with Jesus

What of the explanations?

Will she be served communion or excused therefrom?

HardMirror:
Captured u too, wanted to ignore u but congrats... U just won a contract

Now let me repeat the post:

Scholar8200:
Hardmirror, this thread of yours does not appear to correlate with that other one where you claimed you were once a spiritual person?! Which do we believe, this thread or that?

HardMirror:
See who is talking.

So obvious your lives lack evidence of the God you claim to serve that is why you keep finding my testimony difficult. Why not Go to ASF FUTA and show them my thread.
It must be so baffling for you guys. Come and arrest me nau. Mtchew

Fake christians flexing muscles online with no single fruit or gift of the spirit in their lives. [size=16pt]If you had the Holy Spirit[/size] you won't be here speculating.
What a shame. See what christians are. Nothing concrete to, no power, no authority, no discernment of spirits, just empty barrels rattling online.
What a waste
So sad

That highlighted part mocks your atheistic claims! If there is no God according to your belief, you would not appeal thereto (the highlighted) as an answer to the issues raised!

The honourable thing you should simply have done is to explain!

Asking us to go to ASF FUTA armed with your thread is laughable!

Sarassin:
The parenthesis are not mine, they are that of the translator, so we can dispense with the dishonesty tag.

You cannot say that the statement proves that the full verse existed, it doesn’t. The second part of the statement reads : as it is said, 'I and my Father are One,' in respect of unity of substance not singularity of number."

Tertullian is clearly referring to John 10:30. Notice he does not mention the “Holy spirit” in this part of the sentence.

Indeed, a reference to John 10:30 will be needed since the subject being considered is about the Same Persons! Logical isnt it?!


Besides, Adversus Praexas had the Trinity, not water,blood etc , as its focus!


The link is there for any who may wish to verify!