₦airaland Forum

AnonyNymous:
This is what I've been saying since. They CHOSE to serve depravity, but its a choice nonetheless. Which means there is an equal chance of them choosing to NOT kill him, hence rendering the prophecy useless! Then that means the prophecy is a guess! A guess that they will choose to serve depravity!

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Lets take it from the top.
Diagram 1
If the future has already been decided, its that future that will happen, irrespective of whatever decision is made. Therefore any form of free will you think you have is merely an illusion that will still lead you up to that final point. In the first diagram you see a straight path leading to ONE outcome. They may be twists and turns in that line, it can curve and bend, but at the end of the day THAT outcome will still happen. In that case, free will is nothing but an illusion, because no matter what you do, you'll still end up at that final point.

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Diagram 2
If there is more than one possible outcome then this is true free will! No illusions here. Equal chance of one option or the other happening. Therefore when we exercise our free will, each action we make leads to a different outcome. THAT is free will.

Diagram 3
Now, we see what could've happened, if we have true free will, and our free will is not an illusion. The first path satisfies the initial prediction, but the second path DOES NOT. What happens then? You said it takes omniscience to know that the first path would've been followed. This is where you're wrong, with the use of that word.
WIKIPEDIA DEFINITION OF OMNISCIENCE
"An omniscient point-of-view, in writing, is to know everything that can be known about a character, including past history, thoughts, feelings, etc. In Latin, omnis means "all" and sciens means "knowing".
Notice how omniscience means everything that CAN BE KNOWN. This does not include the future, only the past and the present. The future cannot be known because of the existence of free will, which means the future can change at any time. If the future is known, we have a diagram 1 type of situation where there is no free will.

ANALOGY
If I am omniscient about football for example. It means I know all the teams, all their past statistics, every player's abilities, everything there is to know about football. I also know their present form. However, with all this knowledge, this does not mean that I know the outcomes of a future match. I canonly speculate on what I think is likely to be the results. Its a well informed guess, but its a guess nonetheless.
==> From this, you can see how saying that the first path would happen is just a guess.

If it is a guess, then that means the probability of the second path happening exists, even if its a very low chance. And in Christianity, the salvation of mankind depends on the first path. In other words, if Judas and everyone else had chosen to do the right thing and NOT kill Jesus but instead mind their business, then mankind would not be saved. Which is why they, by killing Jesus, saved mankind.
...................................................................................

Further clarification, Diagram 4
Another way you tried to say that the first option would happen was by saying that they were slaves, and slaves have no choice.
Yet they can choose to stop being slaves.
[b]==>[/b]Slaves have no choice, we have a diagram1 type situation where there is no free will therefore no blame for their actions.
[b]==>[/b]They can choose to stop being slaves and follow the second path, hence diagram2 type situation.
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AnonyNymous:
Yes, I will trust that you are honest, and did not alter any of the quotes you presented. In the analogy you presented, that person was a slave for 6 years, and after the sixth year, by definition of English that we are using to communicate now, he was a not a slave, but a free man who chose to continue working for his former master.
Likewise, the men of that time were free enough to NOT kill Jesus.

AnonyNymous:
You mention my personal interpretation being wrong, for being unaligned with history, yet the statement was not made in reference to any historical occurrence. Another problem I have with Christianity, they quote things without bringing the full context of the quote into view.
If someone comes up to you and tells you 'are they calling you a slave? don't worry about it, because you can be free if you want'. That statement ALONE in normal English comprehension is a person telling me not to mind those calling me a slave because I can be free if I want, so I'm not really a slave (why I should no mind them).

NOW HERE'S YOUR STATEMENT
"And that that prediction will be as sure as those circumstances remain constant." [b/]
Yes, if the circumstances remain constant, the prediction remains, [b]but as long as there is free will, then there is NO certainty that the prediction will remain constant, hence, the prediction is nothing but a GUESS

AnonyNymous:
A slave does not have a right and means to freedom. Black slaves in America that tried to run free were killed. If you claim to be a slave, and you have the choice of freedom, it means you don't have to obey your masters. Therefore you are not a slave by definition.

AnonyNymous:
Paul made that statement. In a logical sense, I interpret it to mean the use of the word 'servant/slave' was not applicable to them(which is what I have been saying since), because they can be free if they want, therefore they should 'care not for it'
for people who had made depravity their master, that even had a probability of 0
But then at the same time, you say they had a choice to stop making 'depravity' (what caused them to kill Jesus) their master. Then the probability is NOT zero, because, if 'depravity' is not their master, then they wouldn't kill Jesus. Which means there's just as much chance for them to use their choice, which you say they have, to stop serving 'depravity'

If god could see their future then that means they had no free will. Because seeing the future means its set in stone.

At most, logically, the future can only be predicted based on current circumstances. When those current circumstances are able to change at any time, then the best you can do is make a GUESS of what you THINK is the highest probability. But I'm pretty sure you don't believe John 3:16 is a guess of the highest probability.

AnonyNymous:
A slave, by definition, has no rights, no choice, and must obey its master.
When you say a slave is told to do something by his master, and then instead of having to do it, he gets to decide that he wants to leave the master, then you cannot call that person a slave.
As Paul said, in your quote, 'Are you being called a slave, care not for it'.
It doesn't matter what they call you because you are NOT a slave.
Paul disagrees with you.

AnonyNymous:
I guess its the use of the word 'slave' that is causing confusion. In the example you posed, after the 6th year, he's not a 'slave' anymore, he is a free man that chooses to work for his former master!

He's NOT a SLAVE. That free man, has a choice. Likewise, the disciples and every other human being were free men who had a choice. They had a choice NOT to kill Jesus, and therefore, make the prophecy NOT come true.
Yes, they did not choose to be good, but the possibility existed. However, stating beforehand, before the event ever happened, with 100% certainty that they would kill Jesus is indicative of saying that they did NOT have a choice.

Your bible doesn't say 'God sent Jesus so that they could kill him if they were bad, and leave him if they were good'. No. It says He was going to come to earth, and somebody HAS to kill him (so his blood will wash away your sins).

In the event that they all chose to be good, and NOT kill him, then what would happen then?

After all, god sent Jesus to be murdered so that his blood can wash up all the sins, right? And you responded to me that they were slaves (not free men with a choice) and they had no choice. Having no choice = no free will.

"Nothing here was predestined"
Actually, it was. it stated clearly in your bible that god sent Jesus to die. So that as his blood is spilled your sins will be washed away.
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Unless you are implying that Jesus did not die FOR our sins, but he died BECAUSE of our sins, and that's a different belief from Christianity.

AnonyNymous:
Let us not forget where the issue of slaves came from.
You said that the reason the prophecy HAD to be fulfilled was because they were slaves, and had no choice.
[size=14pt]In other words, they had no free will.[/size]

Then you said no, they had free will to stop being slaves.

Then you could never call them slaves in the first place because they had free will to stop being slaves, and NOT fulfill the prophecy, thereby rendering John 3:16, the basis of your religion, invalid.

AnonyNymous:
If he can choose to be free then he is not a slave. Slaves cannot choose to be free.

kobosmalls:
Did u consciously refuse to understand my argument? You said "overtime" right? How come no trace of their existence has been recorded or discovered across Europe or even around that region of turkey? Ask urself how the igbos left that region of towel of babel and yet no single Igbo tribe nor igbo language speaking people are found in at least small settlements around that region since ur dear holy and infallible bible claims that all languages evolved from that place. And my tribe magically ended up settling in the eastern part of Nigeria leaving no trace of its migration. Your religion deserves to be ridiculed including any of its adherents.

kobosmalls:
You forgot to say that god is love and that other annoying bland word "grace". Yep, a loving ego maniac drowns his children which he says he loves and people like you who are able to read and write still say that god is love and that its best to raise ur own kids in his ways. Well my dear if you are human enough you should know by now that nothing in the semblance of love has been done by u fictional creator. Where do I even start. His own sons blood must be shed to save you from himself. Are u really serious and u are proud to call urselves humans running around shouting blood of Jesus like its something to be proud of. I don't want to go into this Noah's story its really demeaning considering the shameful and laughable excuse or argument you decided to present as a point you. What a joke!

AnonyNymous:
1. If a slave has no choice, you're just confirming the absence of free will.

2. I never mentioned anything about the 12. Whoever it was, whether a Roman soldier, or a cattle rearer, is supposed to have free will to choose NOT to kill or betray Jesus.

AnonyNymous:
You believe in free will.
To state beforehand that a particular outcome has to happen means there isn't complete free will.

If there is complete free will, the possibility that none of them wish to betray/kill Jesus exists.
In that case, what happens to the prophecy that Jesus was sent to die for us?
He won't die anymore, because nobody is willing to kill him.
His blood would not be shed.
And there would be no blood to 'wash away' our sins.
Keep in mind that if we have free will, this will be a possible outcome.

Lilbrown007:
Which Of The Gospel??
Apocalypse of Peter
The Epistle of Barnabas
Infancy Gospel of James
Shepherd of Hermas
1 Clement
Gospel of Thomas
The Didache
Lost Epistle to the Corinthians
Third Letter to the Corinthians etc

Lilbrown007:
[size=15pt]Stupidity Is When U Use The Bible Compiled By The Catholic And Claim Now That U Ain't Catholic What Foolishness??[/size]

Lilbrown007:
Cant You Read??

Lilbrown007:
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AnonyNymous:
In other words, God did not consider the fact that man could repent? After all, we are supposed to have free will. If there is true free will, then anything is possible.

Look at this analogy:
A government decides that they want to give scholarship to a 100 students only, if they pass.
And instead of basing the cutoff mark from the results, they state before hand that the passmark is 50%
Yet, there are more than 100 brilliant students.
In a case like that, the only way to fulfill the conditions (the prophecy) is to make some students (who actually passed) fail! i.e make people who actually repented, sin, for the purpose of fulfilling the prophecy.

The only way that will not happen is if we don't have free will, and in that case, they can't be blamed for their actions

Lilbrown007:
Talking About Taking Things Out Of Context

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Lilbrown007:
[size=15pt]I Bet U Must Be Happy Not Making Any Sense[/size]

Lilbrown007:
CHRISTIANITY CONTRADICTS JEWISH THEOLOGY
The following theological points apply primarily to the Roman Catholic Church, the largest Christian denomination.

A. GOD AS THREE?
The Catholic idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).

Contrast this to the Shema, the basis of Jewish belief: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare the Shema every day, while writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand and head (Tefillin). This statement of God’s One-ness is the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before a Jew dies.

In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry—one of the three cardinal sins that a Jew should rather give up his life than transgress. This explains why during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.

B. MAN AS GOD?
Roman Catholics believe that God came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

Maimonides devotes most of the "Guide for the Perplexed" to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: "God is not a mortal" (Numbers 23:19).

Judaism says that the Messiah will be born of human parents, and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, and will not possess supernatural qualities. In fact, an individual is alive in every generation with the capacity to step into the role of the Messiah. (see Maimonides - Laws of Kings 11:3)

[b]C. INTERMEDIARY FOR PRAYER?
The Catholic belief is that prayer must be directed through an intermediary—i.e. confessing one’s sins to a priest. Jesus himself is an intermediary, as Jesus said: "No man cometh unto the Father but by me."

In Judaism, prayer is a totally private matter, between each individual and God. As the Bible says: "God is near to all who call unto Him" (Psalms 145:18). Further, the Ten Commandments state: "You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME," meaning that it is forbidden to set up a mediator between God and man. (see Maimonides - Laws of Idolatry ch. 1)

D. INVOLVEMENT IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD
Catholic doctrine often treats the physical world as an evil to be avoided. Mary, the holiest woman, is portrayed as a virgin. Priests and nuns are celibate. And monasteries are in remote, secluded locations.

By contrast, Judaism believes that God created the physical world not to frustrate us, but for our pleasure. Jewish spirituality comes through grappling with the mundane world in a way that uplifts and elevates. Sex in the proper context is one of the holiest acts we can perform.

The Talmud says if a person has the opportunity to taste a new fruit and refuses to do so, he will have to account for that in the World to Come. Jewish rabbinical schools teach how to live amidst the bustle of commercial activity. Jews don’t retreat from life, we elevate it.

Lilbrown007:
JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION
Of the 15,000 religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation—i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He’ll tell everyone, not just one person.

Throughout history, thousands of religions have been started by individuals, attempting to convince people that he or she is God’s true prophet. But personal revelation is an extremely weak basis for a religion because one can never know if it is indeed true. Since others did not hear God speak to this person, they have to take his word for it. Even if the individual claiming personal revelation performs miracles, there is still no verification that he is a genuine prophet. Miracles do not prove anything. All they show—assuming they are genuine—is that he has certain powers. It has nothing to do with his claim of prophecy.

Judaism, unique among all of the world’s major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah

Maimonides states (Foundations of Torah, ch. :


The Jews did not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the miracles he performed. Whenever anyone’s belief is based on seeing miracles, he has lingering doubts, because it is possible the miracles were performed through magic or sorcery. All of the miracles performed by Moses in the desert were because they were necessary, and not as proof of his prophecy. What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others… as it says, "Face to face, God spoke with you…" The Torah also states: "God did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us—who are all here alive today." (Deut. 5:3)

Judaism is not miracles. It is the personal eyewitness experience of every man, woman and child, standing at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago.

Lilbrown007:
MISTRANSLATED VERSES "REFERRING" TO JESUS
Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text—which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

A. VIRGIN BIRTH
The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus’ birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

B. CRUCIFIXION
The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."

C. SUFFERING SERVANT
Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel" are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.

Ironically, Isaiah’s prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus.

Lilbrown007:
JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH

A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET
Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets—Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.

B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID
According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, (1) nor will he possess supernatural qualities.

The Messiah must be descended on his father’s side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father—and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father’s side from King David!

C. TORAH OBSERVANCE
The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot (commandments) remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37) For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"

Lilbrown007:
JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world—on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

AnonyNymous:
If it 'needs be' that offences come, then men cannot be blamed for their offences. Because its predestined.

otemanuduno:
The scripture is the evidence...

9 Peter said to her, "How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also."

10 At that moment she fell down at his feet and died.

ebiagtales:
But he said it as if he justifies it. And in fact he was using that example to refer to himself. Now let's analyse better. Quote me a king during Jesus time who killed someone because the person wasn't able to make gain from the money he gave him.

ebiagtales:
You are quoting from the book of Peter who is a murderer himself. That guy killed Ananias and Sapphira.

TrajansKong:
So the continents separated after the flood?? And they carried the different animals with them as they split away from the 'lump'?

This makes no sense whatsoever.

Which 'aspect of geography establishes this position'?