₦airaland Forum

hahn:
Cool. In basic biology, all you need is sperm and a fertile egg to reproduce. If reproduction is that simple, what makes this particular case so unique when people all over the world at the conceived without "faith" in Jehovah?

If god is responsible for Sarah getting pregnant, who was responsible for Aisha, Mohammed's wife conceiving?

Why should an act of attempted murder be celebrated?

What made this unique is that:
... he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb:
Romans 4:19
Sarah was not a kid, she was also a ripe old woman!

lexiconkabir:
if its fulfilled, then how come you say it is equal to preservation to this day? Yes God Almighty is watching!

Why did you cancel that? I meant God is watching over them to fulfil them in due course like He did the rest. O, sorry, glad you agreed !

donnffd:
Religion is a Delusion, a Delusion that has eaten into the mind of the theist, If Abraham was alive today, he would be locked up in a mental institution, but no, he is praised for his faith in a God who commands him to kill his only son, but curses cain for killing his brother and commanding the israelites to not kill, Well what do you expect from a God who kills his own son to save his own creation,from hell that he created...Delusion of the highest order

But would he have been locked up today in a mental institution for believing GOD's promise of a son when he and his wife where decades past childbearing, and yet they had a son?

hahn:
I'm just curious but did Abraham sleep with Sarah before she conceived?

Sure else why did Sarah say this:
Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
Genesis 18:12

lexiconkabir:
Ok, the laws are not yet fulfilled?

Christ has fulfilled the Law, the Words of God given by the Prophets have partly been fulfilled, some are being fulfilled, others are meant for the future. Over all these, God is watching!

But the son in question was a direct product of his faith in the promise given by GOD after decades of barreness and at a stage when there was no hope of childbearing .

And the action you are condemning was based on that same faith:
Hebrews 11:17-19
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

19 accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.


So before we judge the act, let's consider the antecedents. As for the recent cases, I cant speak for them since we dont have the details! Thankfully, the focus of the thread is Abraham and that's why i am here!

lexiconkabir:
interesting, tell me more fulfilment is different from being preserved hope you know that?

If it is not preserved, how will it be recognised when it is being fulfilled? So, preservation is part of fulfilment!

lexiconkabir:
you are yet to be sensible abi? Allah didnt promise to guard the hadith, just like how he didnt promise to guard the torah or the injeel, the only book on earth Allah promised to guard is the Quran.

Well the God Who gave His Word in those two and the prophets declares that He will watch over His Word to perform it! In another place Jesus plainly said not one jot or tittle will lack fulfilment!

facheux:
What is the consensus of Christian scholars regarding these Bible passages

The focus of the Op is on one verse so which passages are you referring to? If it's 1 John 5:7, the article in the op was written by Bible scholars too with historical evidence to match, now the Quran has inadvertently agreed with them. Repeating this question like you did not read the op and other highlighted texts advises me to ignore your question forthwith!

facheux:
Can you explain the trinity for us in laymen terms

Pls ask this question on this thread:
https://www.nairaland.com/2937501/1-john-5-7-real
Or better still read that verse -1 John 5:7. It's the explanation you need!

Gombs:









Your ilk would have called him an occultic man, etc... i can imagine the topic on front page... I wasn't referring to any law courts.


...emmmm, for the records, there is NOT one verse of Scripture that states that God killed them! Please, also note, that Peter didn't kill them either; he never placed any curse upon them!

now ask me, why did i bring this up.

Rather, tell us who did?

EVEN THE QURAN AGREES WITH THE OP!

As quoted by a NLer:

"O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. [b[size=14pt]]Say not: "Three (trinity)!"[/b][/size] Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs." Sura 004:171

And if the Quran was completed between 609-632AD/CE, it means the 1John 5:7/Trinity was not a 17th century addition after all but had been there all along! Long before the 6th Century!!! Except if that part of the Quran was added after the 17th Century!!!

Empiree:
[/quote]Scholar8200:

Compare this with:

ANd since the Spirit here is not Gabriel, I believe this Spirit has a relationship with God far deeper than that of Gabriel who is a malaika.A Spirit from Himself selah!

And that make him (Jesus) God?.

Expatiate on this:
If the Spirit here in question proceeds from Allah, how come Jesus could say, " I will send Him unto you"? Which should be the exclusive preserve of Allah?
At this point I believe we can all agree that the Spirit promised by Christ was not a man.

How can that be since he was also created? Does that apply to the rest angels too?

Did Angel not preceded human being? That's what i meant.

Meaning he ranks with the other angels since they all precede man. Okay.

But the definite article shows there has to be only One of that Kind. Could Gabriel's errands make him holier than the other malaikas?

And which other malaikat is more commissioned according to your Bible?. Which other malaika transmitted Divine message to prophets and messengers besides Gabriel?

Many Angels were sent in the Bible with Divine Messages to prophets and people in general!!! Their names were not mentioned! Only two were mentioned-Gabriel and Michael, of the latter, a high title was attached which was not used for Gabriel in all Scripture!

So which do you accept?

Very simple, Whether it's merely holy spirit or Gabriel, does that make Jesus God?. Quran says Jesus was conceived by word og Allah(God) "Be! and He was". How does that make Jesus(p) God?

But then such an One could declare that He will send the Holy Spirit and that the Spirit will come in His Name! Interestingly, it was interchanged-sometimes He said "the Father will send" , other times He said "I will send" underscoring the Truth-I and My Father are ONE!
That is sure higher than what a man can do!

Why is that? What position is the color highlighted text in relation to Allah?

See, here it's about Allah's Names and Attributes. Anything can emerge from His Almighty Names. I know that very well. Ruh Allah i:e Spirit Of Allah is a subject that has been dealt with many times. It is merely Word coming from Allah. Jesus is a word from Allah not "Word of Allah"

As per the text in blue, do you mean the Spirit is the Word? Do shed more light!

SPIRIT OF Allah IS BREATHED IN EVERY HUMAN BEING

A spirit from Allah does not indicate that Jesus (pbuh) is God. The Qur’an mentions in several places that Allah breathed into the human beings “His Spirit” in Surah Al-Hijr, chapter 15 verse 29 in Surah Sajdah, chapter 32 verse 9

Surah Al Hijr Chapter 15 verse 29

“When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.” [Al-Qur’an 15:29]



Surah Sajdah Chapter 32 verse 9

“But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!” [Al-Qur’an 32:9]

The verse above are talking abot Adam(p) and human beings generally. Why is Adam not God since God also breath is spirit in him as He did Jesus(p)?.

No one claims the Divinity of Christ based on the Anointing of the Spirit! I never said so! I know very well that there were many that were anointed and strengthened by the Spirit in the OT!

JOHN THE BAPTIST (PBUH) IS ALSO CALLED “A WORD” OF Allah

Yahya (pbuh) i.e. John the Baptist (pbuh) is also referred to in the Qur’an as Kalimatullah i.e. a word of Allah in Surah Ali ‘Imran, Chapter 3, verses 38-39

“There did Zakariya Pray to his Lord, saying: “O my Lord! Grant unto me from Thee a progeny that is pure: for Thou art He that heareth prayer!

While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels called unto him: “Allah doth give thee glad tidings of Yahya, witnessing the truth of a Word from Allah, and (be besides) noble, chaste, and a Prophet – of the (goodly) company of the righteous.” [Al-Qur’an 3:39]

Why is John not God just because he was also word from Allah?.

Hear John speak:
"...He that comes after me is preferred before me; for He was before me!
John 1:15b
Making it clear that Jesus is, and was before him not on the basis of age since John was born before Jesus but on a greater and infinitely higher basis!

And hear what John's mum had to say:

"And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Luke 1:43
She said this at a time when she was pregnant with John.

The Word that was God became has been from the beginning and was made flesh!

But He clearly declared that He was One with the Father! Jesus did not say the message would abide forever He clearly said He - the Holy Spirit- will abide with the believers forever. Besides, the Holy Spirit was to be sent in Christ's Name and indwell believers-two things He never did up till that time! In the past the Spirit was sent only to Kings and Prophets and that not permanently. But now He would be coming to indwell all believers! See the difference?

So going by your word, for argument sake, let's assume the "Holy Spirit" sent in Jesus names dwells inside believers (even today) why then Christians doctrines are different?. Right now we have Christians who dont believe Jesus is God. Some Christians dont believe in trinity etc. Question is if the holy spirit sent in the name of Jesus is pure and dwell inside every christian, why do you not all believe the same way?. For instance, no Muslim believe Jesus or Muhammad is God. This is universal among concept Muslims. To believe otherwise is tantamount to disbelieve and blasphemy.

Pay close attention to my point again, if John 14 15 is referring to "holy spirit" which is supposedly dwell in every christian, why do churches and Christians' doctrines differ greatly in terms of salvation?. Some Christians believe Jesus is God; and to reject that concept is detrimental and jeopardizes their salvation. Some Christians believe Jesus is not God simply because he did not say so. They did not see that statement in their Bible. Now, is the holy spirit deceiving you people by giving you different doctrines?

The Word of God, not christian groups, is the final authority on matters like this. The Spirit works with the Word hence we try the spirits by the Word as commanded! Any body can claim to have the Spirit but the test is the Word! Jesus said the Spirit will reveal Truth and Himself to the disciples, that He will bring the Word to our remembrance etc Hence beyond the claims of having the Spirit, we examine the genuineness by the Word! Here many you have referred to fail!

If you will read the NT, you will see many prophecies that people will rise up to draw away disciples for themselves, teach heresies, deny the Lord and His Word etc Even at the beginning of the Church some false brethren tried to introduce things that had no place etc this is why every true christian stands with the Word, not denominational dogma especially when it contradicts the Word! I have seen so-called christians who will argue for their church practices and teachings even if you show them the Word is contrary to them, what then?

Consider that Genesis 18 carefully and ask who was the third Man called LORD and , like you just mentioned, Who is the Spirit that proceeds from God? Surely you agreed He is not an angel.
(for the records only, not related to thread)
If we say the God is One and that He is Three In One and that it is a mystery which we believe, Muslims mock, however there are instances in your reply where those you quoted implied that there were mysteries even they could not explain!

And how is this verse of Quran difficult for you to understand?. What you believe up there contradicts Oneness of God. It means you believe in Three gods. You getting really confused

A mystery does not mean the believers therein are confused!

"O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs." Sura 004:171

Were these not the same people Muslims were asked to get clarification from being accused of exceeding limits? How do we reconcile this? And if the Quran was completed between 609-632, it means the Trinity was not a 17th century addition after all but had been there all along!

AmmarOscar:
I am muslim first.

But I read extensively and love learning other's religion and way of beliefs. pls can any christian explain these contradictions? or give genuine reasons why Churches of today teach directly against Jesus (as)? no offence pls. if you don't know just don't talk.

John 1:1-3,14,15,18Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

18 John 1Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Now this passage confirms that the Word by Whom all things were created became flesh. (Not just a manifestation like He did in OT times but literal flesh after the order of the process of life.)

Now when He became flesh, that was when He said your points 1-3. Why is that? Consider the following expantiation of Vs 14

but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross
Philippians 2:7,8

Meaning the Word said all that 1 - 3 after He , for a time, was made in fashion as a Man, He therefore spoke like a Man.

The last point 4 was spoken after His resurrection. Through faith in Christ we receive power to become the sons of God, adopted sons through faith in He WHo is the Only Begotten Who has been with the Father from the beginning.

promisechuks:
Please I can't just see some sense in your facts

Never mind bro, my fello discussant knows where we are coming from.

Empiree:
To be honest, this verse of Quran you quoted is self explanatory. Let's keep this simple. Malaika Jibreel (Angel Gabriel) is believed by Allah. Their relationship is beyond human comprehension.

Compare this with:

"He [Allah] has written faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with [b]a spirit from Himself (ruh min hu)."[/b] —Surat-ul Mujadila (58): 22

Yusuf Ali, in his commentary for this verse, says the following: Here we learn that all good and righteous men are strengthened by Allah with the holy spirit. If anything, the phrase used here is stronger, “a spirit from Himself.”

ANd since the Spirit here is not Gabriel, I believe this Spirit has a relationship with God far deeper than that of Gabriel who is a malaika.A Spirit from Himself selah!

We see throughout Quran that Angel Gabriel(as) had been commissioned since beginning of time.

How can that be since he was also created? Does that apply to the rest angels too?

So he was addressed appropriately where and when Allah deemed fit. Allah addresses or calls his by different titles. However, I do have to commend you for your sincere thought. Your questions are legitimate.

When readers of the Qur’an hear the words “holy spirit,” they equate this expression with the Arabic, ruh-ul qudus. There are several Qur’anic passages that use this expression, but they do not clearly identify what or who this ruh-ul qudus is. One of those passages is the following as rendered in Yusuf Ali’s world-renowned translation:

Say: the Holy Spirit (ruh-ul qudus) has brought the revelation from thy Lord in truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide, and glad tidings to Muslims. —Surat-un Nahl (16):102


Most Muslims believe this ruh-ul qudus to be Gabriel. Because he is an angel, they know that he is a spirit; and because he transmits the Word of Allah, he is in a special sense a very holy spirit

But the definite article shows there has to be only One of that Kind. Could Gabriel's errands make him holier than the other malaikas?

. There are other passages, however, where the expression ruh-ul qudus is not as easily interpreted. For example, there are three Qur’anic passages that use the expression “holy spirit” in reference to the ministry of Isa Al-Masih.


"We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear (Signs) and [b]strengthened him with the Holy Spirit (ruh-ul qudus)."[/b] —Surat-ul Baqara (2): 87

To Jesus the son of Mary, We gave clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit (ruh-ul qudus). —Surat-ul Baqara (2): 253

Then Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount my favor to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the Holy Spirit (ruh-ul qudus).…” —Surat-ul Ma’ida (5): 110

Today, the common opinion is that the ruh-ul qudus of these verses refer again to the angel Gabriel. But according to the opinions of the early classical interpreters, such as Ibn Zayd, Ibn Abbas and Ibn Anas, and later confirmed by al-Baidawi (d.685/1282), in these passages ruh-ul qudus was understood in a variety of ways. Other interpretations included:

So which do you accept?

1. the spirit that Allah breathed into Isa; 2. the Injil that Allah sent down to Isa; and 3. the one name of Allah that superceded all others, which Isa invoked to perform miracles, such as raising the dead. In each of these instances, ruh-ul qudus was interpreted to be something more profound than an angel; it was something that was of Allah and that came down from Allah. Furthermore, in each of the above three passages, this holy spirit came to give strength to Allah’s servant. This idea is conveyed iN yet another verse of the Qur’an that speaks of believers fully devoted to Allah:

Indeed.

"He [Allah] has written faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself (ruh min hu)." —Surat-ul Mujadila (58): 22



Yusuf Ali, in his commentary for this verse, says the following: Here we learn that all good and righteous men are strengthened by Allah with the holy spirit. If anything, the phrase used here is stronger, “a spirit from Himself.” When anyone offers his heart in faith and purity to Allah, Allah accepts it, engraves that Faith on the seeker’s heart, and further fortifies him with the divine spirit, which we can no more define adequately than we can define in human language the nature and attributes of Allah.

Notice Yusuf Ali’s description of this spirit as “the divine spirit.”Again we see a reference to something that is of Allah, comes from Allah and comes to strengthen. We have already seen references of Isa Al-Masih being strengthened, but this is the only verse in the entire Qur’an that speaks about the common believer being strengthened by the Spirit of Allah.

Why is that? What position is the color highlighted text in relation to Allah?

I definitely concur with Yusuf Ali's theory. This subject leads us to subject of Islamic epistemology, which is grounded in sufism (the spiritual heart of Islam). The word Ruh (spirit) is very complex and can never be fully understood by human. Quran itself confirms that. In a story recorded by Al-Bukhari in his Tafsir of this Ayah that `Abdullah bin Mas`ud said, "While I was walking with the Prophet on a farm, and he was resting on a palm-leaf stalk, some Jews passed by. Some of them said to the others, `Ask him about the Ruh.' Some of them said, `What urges you to ask him about that' Others said, `Do not ask him, lest he gives you a reply which you do not like.' But they said, `Ask him.' So they asked him about the Ruh. The Prophet kept quiet and did not give them an answer, and I knew that he was receiving revelation, so I stayed where I was. When the revelation was complete, the Prophet said:


[size=20pt]وَيَسْـَلُونَكَ عَنِ الرُّوحِ قُلِ الرُّوحُ مِنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّى[/size]

(And they ask you concerning the Ruh (the spirit). Say: "The Ruh (the spirit) is one of the things, the knowledge of which is only with my Lord...'') Surah 17:85



The people of dhirk i:e muslims who invokes Allah a lot (remembrance of God), they know some few things about RUH. Ruh is definitely not only Gabriel, the word is used variably in the Quran. Ruh, according to the people of dhikr, are inside of every human being apart from the two Angels on our shoulders.

That is the human spirit as distinct from the Holy Spirit as we know Him.

Only through the remembrance of Allah we can activate it. There is a lot more to this. I'd better leave this as it is. What is inappropriate is to say Jesus is God just because Allah breaths His ruh in him.

Now if we take the second understanding of the Mysterious Ruh Al-Qudus that refers not to Gabriel but to the Spirit that proceed from God and that is associated with Strength, is there any doubt that this is perfectly correct:

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Luke 1:35

Nowhere in the Bible Jesus claim to be God. Point is even if John 14 and 15 claim Holy Spirit to be sent later, this spirit already existed long before Jesus(p). And the "spirit" mentioned would be visible and his message would abide with mankind forever.

But He clearly declared that He was One with the Father! Jesus did not say the message would abide forever He clearly said He - the Holy Spirit- will abide with the believers forever. Besides, the Holy Spirit was to be sent in Christ's Name and indwell believers-two things He never did up till that time! In the past the Spirit was sent only to Kings and Prophets and that not permanently. But now He would be coming to indwell all believers! See the difference?

THE ANGEL JIBREEL IN THE QURÁN AND SUNNAH

https://foreverislamic./2012/09/21/the-angel-jibreel-in-the-quran-and-sunnah/



There is no doubt that this is a critical spiritual truth that must be explored. To learn more about this experience, we need to consult the scriptures of the Injil, which has much to say about this important matter. First, notice the wording in the following Injil selection, which is similar to what we found in Surat-ul Mujadila (58):22:


"I pray that out of his glorious riches He (Allah) may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being…."

—Injil, Ephesians 3:16

And the next verse says:
that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love
Ephesians 3:17
That is what it means when He says the Spirit will be sent in His NAme. He indwells believers in Christ's NAme!

[quote[
If that is the case, why is nature of Jesus so complicated to many Christians?. If you conclude that because of underlined he must be God, then, i can easily mention some chrstian right here on NL to argue with you otherwise. I will sit behind and eat popcorn while i watch.[/quote]Well, where are they? Jesus further clarified that He was Lord and One with the Father as the Pre-Incarnated One when He said-before Abraham was I am! Consider carefully the Man that came in the company of two angels in Genesis 18 to whom Abraham made intercession being called the LORD!

Quran is very clear:

"O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs." Sura 004:171

Why is the verse ^ difficult for you to swallow?. Where did Jesus say he is God because he has the power to send holy spirit?. That's just your assumption

Consider that Genesis 18 carefully and ask who was the third Man called LORD and , like you just mentioned, Who is the Spirit that proceeds from God? Surely you agreed He is not an angel.
(for the records only, not related to thread)
If we say the God is One and that He is Three In One and that it is a mystery which we believe, Muslims mock, however there are instances in your reply where those you quoted implied that there were mysteries even they could not explain!

AlMuflihah:
Allah gave jesus the gospel (injeel)... BT dats diff from all doz stories written by different unknown authors in that book u call d bible

ALright , give us the details of the Injeel since you have been able to establish that the ones in the 4 gospels are stories.

Gombs:
Peter or God please.

God!
Jesus had expressedly said He was not here to destroy men's lives but to save meaning He would not give to His disciples that He never used!

Now you answer this, Who killed Korah, Dathan and Abiram?

see as you dismissed the "if it were to be Pastor Chris" question

Yes! What evidence can be brought against a man in this case before the court?

Gombs:
church discipline abi?

Imagine if it was Pastor Chris who was involved in same... Can you imagine your posts on NL when such happens? Would you tag it "Church discipline"?


Simple question... Who killed those couple? God or Peter?

1. If pst Chris did similar, he might get arrested but released soon because there would be no evidence against him!
2. Peter said they lied to the Holy Ghost and to God and this happened b4 they died! Judge yourself who gave the judgement. Let me help, when the propheta of old confronted people with their sins and declared God's judgement eg captivity, infirmity or death. Who was responsible when those things happened? God or the prophet?

promisechuks:
The Holyspirit does not convict you of your sins but your conscience does that.

The holyspirit is there to assure you for the abundance of grace, forgiveness and also assures you that you are still righteous before God, even when you trespass, if you really believe in the finished work of christ.

What do you understand by, Quench not the Spirit?; Grieve not the Spirit? Especially if what you just described is all He does!
How about Hebrews 10 that tells us by sinning wilfully we,among others, do despite to the Spirit of grace?
I assume you know where these can be found in the Bible.

lexiconkabir:
No, every Muslim knows that the Hadith is not 100% perfect, because it was narrated by people claiming they heard this from the prophet, they heard that from the prophet, so the only way to detect if the narration is authentic is to check the Quran if it coincides with it, if it does, then it is graded sahih(authentic). For it to be a revelation, it has to be authentic, Muhammad pbuh cant contradict his Lord, but because the hadith were compiled years after the prophet's death, then they are bound to be lies ascribed to him, the only way these lies are detected is to check the Quran, i hope you now understand?

Alright.

OLAADEGBU:
What role does the Holy Spirit play when a Christian looses his peace, does his get convinced and convicted before repentance or does he just believe? If he gets convicted what does the Holy Spirit use in bringing about this conviction?

The Holy Spirit uses, among other things, our enlightened conscience (enlightened at salvation) and the Word which He brings to our remembrance.

15 And let the peace (soul harmony which comes) from Christ rule (act as umpire continually) in your hearts [deciding and settling with finality all questions that arise in your minds, in that peaceful state] to which as [members of Christ’s] one body you were also called [to live]. And be thankful (appreciative), [giving praise to God always].
Colossians 3:15(AMP)


18 Little children, let us... love [merely] ... in deed and in truth (in practice and in sincerity).
19 By this we shall come to know (perceive, recognize, and understand) that we are of the Truth, and can reassure (quiet, conciliate, and pacify) our hearts in His presence,
20 Whenever our hearts in [[n]tormenting] self-accusation make us feel guilty and condemn us. [For [o]we are in God’s hands.] For He is above and greater than our consciences (our hearts), and He knows (perceives and understands) everything [nothing is hidden from Him].
21 And, beloved, if our consciences (our hearts) do not accuse us [if they do not make us feel guilty and condemn us], we have confidence (complete assurance and boldness) before God,
1 John 3:18-21



When we walk in the Spirit, we walk in love and one of the manifestations is Peace (internal and external) the latter being a function of the former.

But when we go out of step with the Spirit, we lose this peace this being the Spirit's way of calling our attention to retrace our steps and make things right. At this time, instead of peace, we experience what John calls condemnation of the heart.

While we fail to yield, we quench the Spirit and loose our relationship pending the time we repent and make things right. With the gradual quenching of the Spirit comes an increasing awareness of guilt {realisation of wrongdoing and deserving of punishment). Persistence in this state (no thanks to errors like eternal security) sans making things right may live us with a hardened conscience (seared with a hot iron) that may not feel the guilt anymore.

This is why Paul's discipline was:

16 Therefore I always exercise and discipline myself [mortifying my body, deadening my carnal affections, bodily appetites, and worldly desires, endeavoring in all respects] to have a clear (unshaken, blameless) conscience, void of offense toward God and toward men.
Acts 24:16

lexiconkabir:
(1)was mattew a witness to the crucifixion?...............(2)was it even mattew that wrote the "book of mattew" you just quoted from?

To both questions, my answer is YES! Take a taxi to this website (you are allowed to take pictures )
https://carm.org/when-were-gospels-written-and-by-whom

malvisguy212:
what is the main purpose of revealing the hadith ? Or is the quran not enough ? I thought allah say in the quran, "his word is completed" ? Why will you call some hadith false and some authentic ?

If I am to use their logic on that other thread,if hadiths are revelations like has been affirmed, the existence of strong, weak and false hadiths also points to corruption and addition! Then, on what basis do they select which is true and false?

1.Since the term Christian means -little Christs or followers of Christ, then how can Jesus be a follower of Himself?

2. On what standard are you weighing the Title? Those you see around you, Or Those who were the reason why we have the word - Christian- today and those who are just like them which you may not have come across.

AlMuflihah:
It seems you still haven't gotten my point, history is written by men and hence could be fabricated, forged or unintentionally compromised, you also need to know those who claimed it's a fabricated verse also supported it with historical events too.

I have posted a link to one of the books mentioned as evidence in the op; post yours to support the highlighted text.

Then concerning history being written by men, as long as what is written is verifiable.

However, would you doubt your own holy book and the hadiths on this grounds too without evidence? After all it was not written yesterday but also written by men centuries ago!

The article in the op already fairly establishes that some mutilated theirs, bad enough. However, it will be prejudice if you hold to that (because it suits you) and ignore the fact that there were others who preserved it exactly as they received it!
It will also be wrong TO READILY BELIEVE THE PART OF THE OP THAT SPOKE ABOUT PEOPLE MUTILATING THE BIBLE BUT QUERY/IGNORE THE PART OF THE OP THAT ESTABLISHES THAT THERE WERE THOSE WHO CHOSE TO DIE THAN CHANGE A WORD IN THE BIBLE!

Now you vehemently defend your position because it suits what you pushing but we can't know for certain if it's not adulterated.

Well, the op fairly presents both sides thus establishing that there was a group that did not tamper with the Bible and that Bible had the verse in question. That settles it.

And since both positions can't be true nor ascertained it casts aspersions on the preservation of the bible. Now my question, forget your position and look at it with a neutral mind, WHAT IF THE OTHER POSITION IS THE RIGHT ONE?

Bring their history here then we can talk on neutrality or whose version is right! You can even start a thread with your op being the history used by the ex-1John 5:7 group.

Discussing based on WHAT IF gets us nowhere! The Op stands to be refuted but not without proofs!

And please note that those who say it's fabricated also say what you say that it's because the bible was preserved that's why they could recognise and espounge it as a forgery.

Once again, bring their evidences here.

Also, did you not see the part of the Op that refers to the claims of the ex-1John 5:7? See this:

The so-called "Majority" text was not really based on the majority of texts, but rather a relatively small number of manuscripts. The last person to try to find the differences between the majority of Greek manuscripts, Dr. Von Soden, did not collate more than 400 of the more than 5,000 Greek texts. In other words, what is commonly called the "Majority" Greek text is not a collation of the majority of manuscripts at all.
The "Majority" Greek text is also the main Greek text used by the Eastern Orthodox religion. They had a vested interest in changing (or deleting) some texts

Gombs:
Remission of Sin is by the blood of Jesus... it is done once. Stop mixing facts




Remission of sin is WAY different from forgiveness of Sin.... how come you dont know the difference?

Jesus said ... “If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

what is hard in understanding there?



advice yourself sir.

meanwhile, who killed Annanias and his wife? God or Peter?

My question is was there any time when ANY of the Apostles expressedly forgave or retained sins?

The reference to Ananias is a case of Church discipline. We are talking here of Peter or any apostles saying, like Jesus did, " man/woman, thy sins be forgiven thee" or " man, your sins will not be forgiven"! What then is the essence of preaching the Gospel and asking men to believe the Gospel?!

Gombs:
hold on sir...

In John 20:23, Jesus tells His disciples, “If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

what is soooooooooooooo difficult in understanding there?

Remember Peter and Ananias and Sapphira? Do you think Peter or God killed them?... in fact, who killed them?

there was a brother Paul handed over to the devil... Paul said "I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus"

why don't you ask me who gave him the audacity?

Bro, these instances you have mentioned are matters regarding church discipline not the remission or retention of sins. The passage John 20:23 did not even ask them to FORGIVE sins it says to REMIT now remember that without the shedding of BLOOD there is no remission of sins!!!

Moreover, it is wrong to cleave tenaciously to one verse sans looking at the preceding verses and other parallel verses.

Bro, I believe this John 20:23 was to be achieved , not by some declaration,but by what came before it:

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you
John 20:21

He sent them to:
46 and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things

Meaning sins will be remitted as they witnessed Jesus through Whom sins were to be remitted. And he that believed them not remains with his guilt and will be damned!

In case you disagree, please show me at least one instance in the NT where any of the apostles expressedly forgave sins.

Regards

Empiree:
It is called possessive noun/pronoun.

Actually what I wanted to know was why, since Gabriel appeared to both as a man, why was he called with the generic name -angel- while for the other he was called with a special name and the definite article -The- was used meaning there was only one of his kind?

[Quran 2:87]

"And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed".

Moreover, can you give instances when Gabriel supported Jesus' Ministry?

Basic Grammar tells us the article - the - shows there is only one of that kind eg Jesus is the Messiah meaning we cannot have more than one! How do we relate this to Gabriel who is not the only angel?

[b]While we were one day sitting with the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah upon him, there appeared before us a man dressed in extremely white clothes and with very black hair. No traces of travel were visible on him, and none of us knew him. He sat down close by the Prophet, peace and blessings upon him, rested his knees against his knees and placed his palms on his thighs, and said, O Muhammad! Inform me about Islam." Muhammad said, "Islam is that you should testify that there is no deity save Allah and that Muhammad is His Messenger, that you should perform salah (ritual prayer), pay the zakah (alms), fast during Ramadan, and perform Hajj (pilgrimage) to the House (the Ka'bah at Makkah), if you can find a way to it (or find the means for making the journey to it)." Said he (the man), "You have spoken truly." We were astonished at his thus questioning him and telling him that he was right, but he went on to say, "Inform me about Iman (faith)." He (the Messenger of Allah) answered, "It is that you believe in Allah and His angels and His Books and His Messengers and in the Last Day, and in fate (qadar), both in its good and in its evil aspects." He said, "You have spoken truly." Then he (the man) said, "Inform me about Ihsan." He (the Messenger of Allah) answered, " It is that you should serve Allah as though you could see Him, for though you cannot see Him yet He sees you." He said, "Inform me about the Hour (time of the resurrection)." He (the Messenger of Allah) said, "About that the one questioned knows no more than the questioner." So he said, "Well, inform me about the signs thereof (i.e. of its coming)." Said he, "They are that the slave-girl will give birth to her mistress, that you will see the barefooted ones, the naked, the destitute, the herdsmen of the sheep (competing with each other) in raising lofty buildings." Thereupon the man went off. I waited a while, and then he (the Messenger of Allah) said, "O 'Umar, do you know who that questioner was?" I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better." He said, "That was Jibril. He came to teach you your religion." [Muslim][/b]


Narrated 'Aisha: "...Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says."...Sahih Bukhari 1:1:2




This is a common debate btw the two Faiths. First all, from Islamic point of view, every human being has two Angels on our shoulders recording our deeds. Thats their assignment. These are not Jubril(Gabriel). Christians claim "Holy Spirit" i:e Gabriel is the one with them, consider descriptions of Gabriel as described by prophet Muhammad(p) as having 600 wings. Where the heck that is in you?

Discriptions of Angel Jubril

Narrated ASSAILANT: ..."Abdullah (bin Mas'ud) informed us that Muhammad had seen Gabriel with six hundred wings."
Sahih Bukhari 6:60:380

I'd rather let rilwayne001, tola9ja deal with you on whether John 14, 15 is Muhammad (p) or not. I am not really interested in that debate at this time.

Alright to the highlighted text.

This is to show you Jesus(p) was not talking about sending "Holy Spirit"(Gabriel). Gabriel already existed long before humans were created. It was same Angel Gabriel who appeared to his mom, Mary(as). Why would he want to send an Angel that already heralded?.

Meaning the personality He was sending was neither Gabriel nor a man! Else, this is the implication:

1. Only God has the capacity to say,"I will send so and so" not from the Earth but from Heaven" Therefore if Jesus was referring to Mohammed (which of course He wasnt) then He is the Son of God and Essentially One with Him! NO prophet at any age EVER used that sentence of promising to send someone from Heaven! Highest they did eg Moses was to appoint a successor on earth!

2. If Jesus was referring to Mohammed, then Jesus is far more than a prophet! Whosoever is sent is answerable to Him that sent him! Note that Jesus said He will send such an One in His Name, just as He came in the Father's Name! Think on these!

AlMuflihah:
You see why we keep saying your bible isn't preserved. I really enjoyed your essay of how you proved it was there all along but you know the problem is I have read and also enjoyed several other christian scholars that argued it's a fabrication.
If a religion with about 2 billion followers can't even have a concensus on its most holy scripture I wonder if it's doctrines are even divine or just authored and edited as per whims.

1. The Bible is preserved
Why do you overlook the ones who preserved it at the cost of their lives and rather cleave to the ones who edited theirs?
And if it is not preserved we wont have any basis to counter the accusations of forgery!
And that we have the verse in the Bible today proves that God preserved His Word!
Consider the highlighted:

Now we have to ask ourselves a question: Who had the most to gain by adding to or taking away from the Bible? Did the Vaudois, who were being killed for having their Bibles, have anything to gain by adding to or taking from the words of God? Compromise is what the Roman religion wanted! Had the Vaudois just followed the popes, their lives would have been much easier. But they counted the cost. This was not politics; it was their life and soul. They above all people [size=14pt]would not want to change a single letter of the words[/size] they received from Antioch of Syria. And they paid for this with their lives.