₦airaland Forum

MrPresident1:
These are very specific statements; Paul is telling you in clear and specific terms that he WILL be here, and here you are telling us that Paul 'hopes the event will take place in his time'. Precept by precepts I showed you that Paul means HE WILL BE ALIVE WHEN CHRIST RETURNS and you say 'he hopes'

2Timothy 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

1Thessalonians 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Bible is an evolving book of extant world events; Paul says 'we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord' and here you are volunteering your opinion on what is so clear

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:16
Who are those?

Arjeeni:
Alright then, post the prophesies for the Bile compilation is a topic for another I have to collect different authorities about this. I will get back to you the firebrigade approach can not help i can see.

I suggest you let your new thread cover this other issues. The focus of this thread is on the 'ancient' bible.

Never mind bro, we are not serving the same God.

MrPresident1:

1Thessalonians 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Bro., please can you explain the those places I put in red in the context of:

2Timothy 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Paul wrote the text highlighted red in 1 Thessalonians 4 while he was still alive and, like every believer, hoped that event will take place in his time. Paul wrote 2 Timothy at the point when death was just around the corner.

6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand
[/b]2 Timothy 4:6

And a little addendum while I await your insights, God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, and the Bible is described as a living breathing book, an evolving story of the world, evolving before our very eyes. In the light of the foregoing, this generation that Jesus says will not pass away till all things be fulfilled, is this generation.

That has been explained already as to which generation and what event that statement applied to.

Arjeeni:
Bro are you saying this because you think I don't know how Bible was compiled or for something else?

The first copy of Bible to be presented in christian world written solemnly by Paul we can only talk of other versions which of cause differ to each other.

I red a book about the compilation of the Bible, there are so many goofs as the book claims in trend of compilation but Paul at the end of the day was credited to be the compiler

Interesting! So the compiler is also the writer? So Paul wrote the Pentateuch? Paul wrote the Psalms, Paul even wrote the Revelations (after he had been killed) and went on to compile the Bible when some books therein were written after he had been martyred!

malvisguy212:
there is difference between God the son and christ, christ is a man, it was God the son who incarnate in jesus christ. But how can Jesus’ statement about His Father being “the only true God” be harmonized with statements made by thomas,peter concerning the deity of Christ ? It was in the very same gospel of john that the deity of christ is well proven. Jesus statement was made in the opposition of the world's false God. Isaiah 43:11 God say "beside me their is NO savior" YET peter, one of jesus disciple and paul say jesus is the savior

Who is the speaker of the quranic verse I paste ? Who is the "HIM" and the "HE" ? If the 'him' or 'he' is Allah , why will allah switch from plurality to singularity ?

The Royal 'Us' and 'We' is not used Once in the Bible but since the Quran uses it, it further establishes the fact that we are not referring to the same God.

Muslims believe when Allah says Us /We He it is done in self-reference; Christians believe when God says Us (He Never used We, rather He uses I!), it points to His Triune Nature. Meaning we are just not referring to the same Personality!

Isaiah, Daniel, Zechariah , David all prophesied of the Messiah, referred to His Pre-existence with the Father and prophesied of His death and resurrection. Since they do not believe in same, then we can logically say that we are not referring to the same God.

Arjeeni:
how about the Bible? did Paul write the Bible or not.

The Bible was Inspired by the Spirit through a host of writers who wrote at different periods some never meeting the other and yet all their writings agree as one as a result of the Spirit's inspiration. Paul was one of such as well as Luke, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Baruch, John, Peter, Tertius etc

This is the faith (by which grace is received) once delivered to the saints. Well done bro. In the nearest future, you will have to be ready to say this in the face of aggressive and violent threat to life! God help us!

Cockyzy:
Have you ever travail in prayer? How did it go? Was it a argumentative petitioning?

The one you described is the tenacity of faith that pleads based on God's promises (Daniel 9) and/or God's Personality (Genesis 18). Travailing is the result or outworking of the Spirit's groanings that cannot be uttered. If you are genuinely saved and are walking in the Spirit, this form of prayer would be experienced when you are praying concerning the Kingdom's expansion and righteousness. You prepare the ground for this depth of the Spirit by spending much time meditating and rehearsing related promises and the Divine purpose as it concerns the issue at hand.
Psalm 39:2,3

Arjeeni:
Yes I do with all sincerity, stories about the Prophets you mentioned were clearly written in Holy Quran and many of our scholars had wriiten a lot books which gave enough account about their nation.

Would you still believe if I quoted the prophesies of these prophets that contradict your claims here:

Arjeeni:
Going through the posts i can understand that ..........
out of other thing Jesus was never a God but alleged to be one due to miracles he was able to perform as proved to some prophecies.
Paul credibility was equally questioned in the bible to be hypocrite, this maybe due to the fact that he was known to be one of those hunted down anyone believed in Jesus then even till the demise of the christ.
out of all disciples, Paul was the one who deem it fit to write Bible and gospels christians follow today as ultimate source of their religions law.

Paul did not write the Gospels. Peter, Jude, James, John were all disciples and their Inspired writings are there for all to see.

Empiree:
Scholar8200:

But there were that used the name Allah before Mohammed was born? Meaning Mohammed did not bring it! What then?
Emp:
Of-course, he didnt. Allah(God) has ALWAYS been in existence BEFORE the CREATION of ANYTHING. What Name did Jesus call God in his Aramaic language?. See the attachment. Any objection to that?

Now go find out the Aramaic of Yahweh and see the point I am making when I said Yahweh is not the Hebrew word for God; it is God's Name!

Sch8200:
Rather fulfilled in Jesus:
I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 5:43-47




Bonus: Where did Moses write about Jesus?


Is that so? This is a verse you do not understand. It describes some Eschatological events which culminates in Jesus Christ reigning from Jerusalem.
And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zech 14:8
Emp:
Really irrelevant to me to begin with.

As usual!

Sch8200:
Let's see who Isaiah was referring to:

2 Behold, God is my salvation;
I will trust, and not be afraid:
for the Lord JEHOVAH is my strength and my song;
he also is become my salvation.
4 And in that day shall ye say,
Praise the Lord, call upon his name,
declare his doings among the people,
make mention that his name is exalted.
5 Sing unto the Lord;
for he hath done excellent things:
this is known in all the earth.
6 Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion:
for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.
Isaiah 12:2-6

Does not sound like Muslims to me!
Emp:
But you said Yahweh is God's name according to you?. And your brother accused me of Jehovah's witnesses doctrine. Do you then call God Jehovah?.....that's what they call God. Ofcourse, it wont sound muslims to you even though you appeared to be a little insightful.

Yes, It is God's Name.

Sch8200:
stoop so low? evading discussion? Like I said, we were each on parallel lines of discussion. I had started the usual step by step reply before I just ended it there. I can still dissect the last one but what's the point?
Emp:
The point is, you have no point so long as you mix God with his creatures, and then keep telling us all 3 in 1 is One God. Atheist wont even agree wit you.

your opinon though light years from reality! I dont need atheists to agree with me! God is 3 IN 1!

Sch8200:
Yahweh is the Name of God. It is not the Hebrew translation of the word God. We have many presidents and they all have their personal names!
Emp:
You confused?. But earlier you said Yahweh is not God. Hope you save your many inconsistencies.

We will see who is confused if you can quote where the highlighted was said.

Sch8200:
Begotten as it refers to GOD is not defined, suffice it to say that the word was used . It was wrong to relate it only to biology and thus dispense it as false.
Emp:
In another word, yourself dont know what "Begotten" means yet you use it, you apply it, you believe it. This is called blind faith. The implications are many.

A mystery simply suggests the details cannot be fathomed except by revelation at God's Initiative. As much that was revealed suffices us!

One of them is Jesus did not say that. At some point he was called "Son of God" but he rebuffed them saying "you said I am" meaning, that's their opinion. He never acknowledged it.

you like to sound like Mr Know-it-all!

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 16:16,17

It's either you believe this or you believe in the failed 'gospel of Barnabas' that supports your claim!

Another implication is John that wrote the book was written after Jesus ascension. It has pretty much no validity. Therefore Quran warns in many passages I quoted earlier.

You seem to have forgotten that Jesus clearly said they will be His witnesses and that there will be those that will believe on Him
through their (the apostles') words!

One of them:


"He (God) begot not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like Him" ! Holy Quran

So I urge you to refrain from what you knew not. Here read what Quran says about that as well. He says you have no knowledge of it. Thats very much confirms what you said


Surah 18:

4 Further, that He may warn those (also) who say, "Allah hath begotten a son":

5 No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers. It is a grievous thing that issues from their mouths as a saying what they say is nothing but falsehood!

Okay. If there are things you cannot fully understand in your religion (like you admitted in the beginning in the matter of spirit), then it is wrong to make these accusations against others who say same! Allah did not have a son because he is not Yahweh period!

Sch8200:
No problem. After all the quotes from the prophets and Jesus Himself, I should expect you to say this since you either skimmed through my replies or ignored some parts.
Emp:
Very simple. I did some breakdown of those verses and you ignored them unfortunately. If they had been critically important, i would have, perhaps, considered them. But you got them mixed up back and fourth. A layman would get confused too. That's why, 80% of those who adhere to Christianity have no idea what they are doing. They have little to no knowledge of their real doctrines.

your opinion; light years from reality though!

Sch8200:
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 16:16,17

But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God Matthew 26:63
Emp:
Now you jumped to Simmon Peter, hum?. is there any correlation with what said ealier (quoted below)?. I wonder if you really listen to yourself sometimes. (no offence, sir). Your Bible is very CONFUSING -> C O N F U S E = confuse

It will look so to you due to the influence of the god of this world.

Emp:
Allow me to break this down the best way i can. I dont have problem with (Psalm 110 :1) the first speaker Lord with capital letter L. And the same Lord (God) is saying to another "Lord, lord" (because other version(s) uses both upper and lower cases) saying to sit at His (God) right hand, correct?. And you quoted Mat: 22 42-44 that Jesus (perhaps, the second Lord/lord) with upper and lower cases as messiah. What is definition of messiah?


Sch8200
The Messiah- The Anointed One - is none other than the Son of God Who has been from the beginning with the Father!
Emp:
Okay. So here messiah is someone appointed by God. Okay, two separete bings. Anyways, here is official definition of messiah.

I did not say appointed! And who gave the 'official' definition?? The Bible is its own dictionary! We dont need secular dictionaries to understand peculiar words such as this!

mes·si·ah
məˈsīə/Submit
noun

1. the promised deliverer of the Jewish nation prophesied in the Hebrew Bible.

2. a leader or savior of a particular group or cause.


See that?. He was sent to Jewish people not Nigerians
https://www.google.com/search?q=Messiah&rlz=1CASMAE_enUS679US679&oq=Messiah&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, [size=14pt]beginning at Jerusalem[/size].
Luke 24:46,47
He is the Seed of Abraham In Whom all the nations of the World are to be blessed but the starting point was to be among the Hebrews.

A mystery remains a mystery!
Emp:
grin Difficult to solve. You put yourself through what God did not approve of. It is not too late. My responses should be formatting your system gradually and remove your clog.

Another opinion totally alienated from reality.

That is why I said we are on parallel lines, Jesus has been from the beginning, He merely took on humanity at that point!
Emp:
Fabricated theory, sorry.

For a revelation that has been there for milleniums, and a 21st century person claims it was fabricated! Well it is , as always, his opinion! Afterall there are those that even say there is no God, also, it is their opinion! However, both parties give the word conceitedness a redefinition!

Sch8200
Interesting claim that! On what authority do you make your claim? Apart from Jesus, who was so described? And can you therefore pray thus:
Emp:
grin grin grin grin You cant beat that, can you?. Underlined is me. That is the intellect Quran gives us. I have every right to apply it. Let me repost my analysis here again for readers:

With no reference to another who spoke thus well the above still applies here!

Emp:
Unfortunately, this is no different from average human beings like you and I. [We were with God before our mothers conceived us. Or where do you think we were?. The difference is Jesus was sanctified and made prophet, without father. He was just like other prophet. Where do you think you were befpre you became flesh (before your mom gave birth to you)?. Weren't you with God?. That is what the verse is saying. If you disagree, then, you will NEVER be able to figure it out....NEVER!

Yet another!

Now, Quran also said something simliar that we were created before. Meaning pre-existence (before we became flesh), mimicking you grin


Sura Yasin v 79

Say: (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) "He will give life to them Who created them for the first time! And He is the All-Knower of every creation!"




Sura 19:67

"Does not man remember that We created him before, while he was nothing?"



So these verses indicate we (all humans) pre-existed before we became flesh.

And can you pray that prayer?


And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
John17:5

This could only be said by He that was with the Father in the Beginning as John 1:1-2 affirms!

Let me make something very clear. I do not want you to assume that we are trying to relegate Jesus the son of Mary, the messanger of Allah. May God protect me from that. What I am trying to establish here is the correct status of Jesus(Allah's Blessings and Peace be upon him). Quran describes him as NO more than messanger of God. Period. That doesnt mean he was in the same level like us. No. He is human being 100%. We only reject the idea being called God or son of God. Clear?. At your bolded part, Quran says Allah honor children of Adam(as).



Allah has made a declaration in the Quran:


"And indeed We have honoured the Children of Adam, and We have carried them on land and sea, and have provided them with At-Taiyibat (lawful good things), and have preferred them above many of those whom We have created with a marked preference.

(Al-Isra 17:70)

Jesus is also one of the many children of Adam. Anything else?

That is why I said we are on parallel lines of argument and it seems you dont want to agree! The author of the failed 'gospel of Barnabas' tried to forge a point of agreement and failed woefully, this you are doing is similar!

Sch8200:
There is the problem, you never saw that in the Bible and then it is a discrepancy? !!!! undecided This is why this discussion appears to be lost! If Micah is not in any of your Bible I wonder!
Emp:
By discrepancy i meant why is it not in my Bibles?. Bible should be one like Quran, hence discrepancy. It is missing. That's my point. Why is it not there?

By whose instruction? What do you understand by the word discrepancy?

Underlined, you wonder?. That's a question for your priests and pope

another mistake: assuming all Christians are catholics!

In summary, we are not on the same page hence there's no point proceeding. All the efforts to squeeze in Islam/Mohammed into Bible is similar to what the forger of the failed 'gospel of Barnabas' tried doing (this is further established by the fact that MANY muslims fell for the lie of the failed 'gospel' and many still do! some even claim that is the true, uncorrupted Gospel not until they see that it contradicts them!!!)

Scholar8200:
God's Name is the emphasis there. We also have God, Lord mentioned in the Bible but His Unique and Exalted Name was revealed.
Empiree:
What is Unique?. What is Exalted?

Unique: being the only one of its kind; unlike anything else.

Exalted: (of a person or their rank or status) placed at a high or powerful level; held in high regard.



The word Allah, according to several Arabic lexicons, means "the Being Who comprises all the attributes of perfection", i.e. the Being Who is perfect in every way (in His knowledge, power etc.), and possesses the best and the noblest qualities imaginable in the highest degree. This meaning is supported by the Holy Quran when it says:


"His are the best (or most beautiful) names." (17:110; 20:8; and 7:180)


Contrary to popular belief, the word Allah is NOT a contraction of al-ilah (al meaning 'the', and ilah meaning 'god'). Had it been so, then the expression ya Allah ('O Allah!') would have been ungrammatical, because according to the Arabic language when you address someone by the vocative form ya followed by a title, the al ('the') must be dropped from the title. For example, you cannot say ya ar-rabb but must say ya rabb (for 'O Lord'). So if the word Allah was al-ilah ('the God'), we would not be able to say: ya Allah, which we do.


Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon (which is based on classical Arabic dictionaries), says under the word Allah, while citing many linguistical authorities:

"Allah ... is a proper name applied to the Being Who exists necessarily, by Himself, comprising all the attributes of perfection, a proper name denoting the true god ... the al being inseparable from it, not derived..."


Allah is thus a proper name, not derived from anything, and the Al is inseparable from it. The word al-ilah (the god) is a different word.


The word Allah is unique among the names of God in all the languages of mankind, in that it was never applied to any being other than God. The pre-Islamic Arabs used it to refer to the Supreme Being, and never applied it to any of the other things they worshipped. Other names of God used by mankind, such as "lord", "god", "khuda", etc. have all also been used for beings other than God. They have meanings which refer to some particular attribute of God, but "Allah" is the name which refers to the Being Himself as His personal name.

The Holy Quran itself refers to the uniqueness of the name Allah when it says:


"Do you know anyone who can be named along with Him?" (19:65)



Arabic is the only language, and Islam is the only religion, that has given the personal name of God (as distinct from attributive names such as lord, god, the most high, etc.) There are clear prophecies in previous scriptures (the Bible, the Vedas etc.) about the man who will come and give the name of God, which in previous religions was regarded as a secret.

But there were that used the name Allah before Mohammed was born? Meaning Mohammed did not bring it! What then?

David prophesied:

"Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" (Psalms 118:26).


This is also repeated in the Gospels (Matt. 21:9, etc.), and was fulfilled by the Holy Prophet Muhammad whose first revelation was "Read in the name of thy Lord" (the Quran, 96:1).

Rather fulfilled in Jesus:
I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 5:43-47

Bonus: Where did Moses write about Jesus?

Zechariah prophesied:


"And the Lord shall be king over all the earth, in that day there shall be one Lord, and his name one." (Zech. 14:9)


All Muslims, anywhere on the earth, speaking totally different languages, recognise the name "Allah", thus fulfilling this prophecy, "his name one". (All Christians, to take an example, do not recognise a single name of God, and therefore do not fulfil this prophecy.)

Is that so? This is a verse you do not understand. It describes some Eschatological events which culminates in Jesus Christ reigning from Jerusalem.
And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zech 14:8

Isaiah prophesied:

"And in that day shall you say, Praise the Lord, call upon His name." (Isaiah 12:4)

So Muslims say repeatedly exactly this: al-hamdu li-llah, and call upon His name Allah.

Let's see who Isaiah was referring to:

2 Behold, God is my salvation;
I will trust, and not be afraid:
for the Lord JEHOVAH is my strength and my song;
he also is become my salvation.
4 And in that day shall ye say,
Praise the Lord, call upon his name,
declare his doings among the people,
make mention that his name is exalted.
5 Sing unto the Lord;
for he hath done excellent things:
this is known in all the earth.
6 Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion:
for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.
Isaiah 12:2-6

Does not sound like Muslims to me!

Allah Is Exalted


One of the 99 Names of Allah is The Exalter AL-MUTA'ÂLÎ i:e The Most Exalted (Q13:9)







The absence thereof in the Quran (that claims Bible prophets who never used the name Allah) establishes that Yahweh is not the Allah of the Quran.
Now you stooped so low just because you wanted to evade the whole intelligently constructed debate we had. You never had any problems with "Allah" until you reached roadblock. As I already quoted earlier, we can call Allah any names we want as long as it means The Creator without any mix-ups.

stoop so low? evading discussion? Like I said, we were each on parallel lines of discussion. I had started the usual step by step reply before I just ended it there. I can still dissect the last one but what's the point?

If Yahweh means God, The Only Creator of heavens and earth without partners, then, that is the same Supreme Being Muslims refer to.

Yahweh is the Name of God. It is not the Hebrew translation of the word God. We have many presidents and they all have their personal names!

Besides, the red highlighted was NEVER allowed in the OT!
This is the red highlighted part


("Invoke Allah or invoke Ar-Rahman (the Most Gracious), by whatever name you invoke Him (it is the same), for to Him belong the Best Names.) ~ Holy Qur'an

What language do you speak, please?. In your language, what do you call God, The Only Creator of heaven and earth?. What the highlighted part means is in any language you call God, The Only Unique Creator of All things, it is accepted.

Yoruba: Olohun, Eledumare, Eledua

Igbo: Chi

Hausa: Allah, Bautãwa, Ubangiji

Danish: Gud. And the list goes on.

Now if any of these names (except Allah of course), locally, dialectically mean gods of thunder, gods of iron etc, then, thats is contaminated. But if it means The Supreme Being,The Only Creator (Allah), then there is nothing wrong addressing Allah by those Names. Even the word 'God' is contaminated. Say for instance we spell back "God".... it will give us Dog. Thats why Jews spell G-d like this. So the word God is not even pure. But if you spell back Allah - it will still give you Halla. See that?. That's pure and Unique. And you said there is no unique and exalted for Allah in the Quran?, Allah is Most Exalted. This ayah sums it:



Allah - there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. His Kursi extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Most Great. 2:255

Well, there is a difference between translation of the word God to other languages, and the Name He revealed.

If you listen to the news, president may be translated into the local language but not the name. For example What's the yoruba, igbo, efik etc rendition for Buhari = Buhari!

You are very wrong there! I had initially started typing a reply before I decided to just round up. Jesus was, is and shall ever be the Only Begotten of the Father. (As agrees the OT and NT)
What is definition of Begotten in Christianity?. This is 4th time I am asking this. Was Yahweh born of woman?

Begotten as it refers to GOD is not defined, suffice it to say that the word was used . It was wrong to relate it only to biology and thus dispense it as false.

Sch8200:
If I point to prophecies and sayings of OT people and you can say nothing to counter it factually but still hold to your beliefs, then it further proves to me that Yahweh is not Allah, Jesus Christ is not Isa, David is not (whatever he is called in arabic), Isaiah etc; hence there is no point proceeding with the discussion !
Emp:
This is cheap exist. Since debated started, you have been unable to define God Almighty and His Unique Attributes. You rather mixed Him up with holy spirit and Jesus. You have also unable to properly Id'd Jesus the son of Mary, the messanger of Allah {Allah's Blessings and Peace be upon him}.

No problem. After all the quotes from the prophets and Jesus Himself, I should expect you to say this since you either skimmed through my replies or ignored some parts.

Sch8200:
For example

Psalm 110 :1 speaks of The Lord saying to the Lord, sit .. at My right hand...

Matthew 22:42-44 Jesus confirms that place as the Father speaking concerning the Messiah-Him!

The passage there in Hebrew and Greek clearly establishes that neither of the Two[/b] were created; John reinforces this and further clarifies that the Messiah is actually the latter in Psalm 110:1 made flesh for the purpose of Redemption, but had been with the Father from the begnning,
Emp:
Allow me to break this down the best way i can. I dont have problem with (Psalm 110 :1) the first speaker Lord with capital letter L. And the same Lord (God) is saying to another "Lord, lord" (because other version(s) uses both upper and lower cases) saying to sit at His (God) right hand, correct?. And you quoted Mat: 22 42-44 that Jesus (perhaps, the second Lord/lord) with upper and lower cases as messiah. What is definition of messiah?

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 16:16,17

But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be [b]the Christ, the Son of God
[/b]Matthew 26:63

The Messiah- The Anointed One - is none other than the Son of God Who has been from the beginning with the Father!

At underlined, you have a big problem. The first implication is, you admitted there are two(B/beings) existed, correct?. This negates your tawheed i:e your claim that God is One. This is clear cut Shirk (blasphemy). Clearly God is not One by you explanation.

A mystery remains a mystery!

Second implication is, you said the Two(2) were not created. You have another serious problem. Remember you said the latter (Lord/lord) refer to Jesus sitting at God's right hand, if that is the case, then you contradict the birth of Jesus (Allah's Blessing and peace be upon him).


Here is the question again, when Jesus was born of woman, it means he was created. Yes or No?. We read in your Bible he was born, and how he grew up stage by stage, including being circumcised etc. So you and your Bible contradicted. Not only that. You contradict yourself, Bible contradicts itself and you and Bible contradict each other. I hope you understand my breakdown?

That is why I said we are on parallel lines, Jesus has been from the beginning, He merely took on humanity at that point!

Sch8200
the Messiah is actually the latter in Psalm 110:1 made flesh for the purpose of Redemption, but had been with the Father from the begnning,
Emp:
Unfortunately, this is no different from average human beings like you and I. We were with God before our mothers conceived us. Or where do you think we were?. The difference is Jesus was sanctified and made prophet, without father. He was just like other prophet. Where do you think you were befpre you became flesh (before your mom gave birth to you)?. Weren't you with God?. That is what the verse is saying. If you disagree, then, you will NEVER be able to figure it out....NEVER!

Interesting claim that! On what authority do you make your claim? Apart from Jesus, who was so described? And can you therefore pray thus:

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
John17:5
Watch your tonguefingers here!

Sch8200:
As if this was not enough, Malvis quoted Micah 5:2

“But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah;
From you One shall come forth for Me [who is] to be Ruler in Israel,
[b]His goings forth (appearances) are from long ago,
From [a]ancient days.”


And Jesus confirmed the highlighted when He said ,''before Abraham was, I Am''.

If with all these you hold on to your views, then I submit that the GOD we know Whose Name as revealed is Yahweh (this is not translated as God dont get it mixed up), is not your Allah.


Emp:
I didnt even have this {Micah 5:2} book in any of my Bibles. I am hearing this for the first time. Kind of discrepancies we talked about Bible. Got it?. I will review it online to see what it is saying. Thanks for quoting this.

There is the problem, you never saw that in the Bible and then it is a discrepancy? !!!! This is why this discussion appears to be lost! If Micah is not in any of your Bible I wonder!

Motion pictures (eg soaps) sedates and sends the mind (conscious) on holiday and the subconscious mind gets re-programmed directly; the more you watch the stronger the influence. When it is done the product will be a zombie-like creature who would simply respond to the vicissitudes of life in accordance with the programming received! The principles the mind will work with will be derived from that stored/programmed in the subconscious. A good example is how a new film sometimes dictate the next fashion, fad, slang etc

After Domitilla (for those who remember) prostitutes appeared to increase in number!

When The Gangster , African American Films flooded Nigeria, we began to hear of increased cult/gangster-like activities among youths etc

Arjeeni:
Why not, if it proved beyond doubt, but remember prophethood has been for long stopped those we have today are not rather pious individual gifted with extra ordinary characters.

I meant Old testament prophets like Isaiah, Jeremiah etc

Arjeeni:
Tell me then how Allah in Quran different to God in the Bible

Do you believe in the OT prophets?

Rilwayne001:
Of what benefit would it be if not another round of futile argument?

You are correct! And that is because both do not believe in the same God. No Problem then.

Rilwayne001:
Wouldve loved to burst this lie, but of what benefit would it be.
Abegi, carry your lie dey go.

Go ahead.

Empiree:
Allah is God for short. Allah is God of heavens and earth. No one shares in His dominion. He is The First and the Last. He is the Creator of all that exist. Different people from different background can call him any Names - so long as the Names are not contaminated.

("Invoke Allah or invoke Ar-Rahman (the Most Gracious), by whatever name you invoke Him (it is the same), for to Him belong the Best Names.) ~ Holy Qur'an

God's Name is the emphasis there. We also have God, Lord mentioned in the Bible but His Unique and Exalted Name was revealed. The absence thereof in the Quran (that claims Bible prophets who never used the name Allah) establishes that Yahweh is not the Allah of the Quran.
Yahweh is not the Hebrew word for God!
Besides, the red highlighted was NEVER allowed in the OT!

You see, your last summary shows that you stalled and you are at crossroad. It is clear that Christians have no idea who Jesus really was.

You are very wrong there! I had initially started typing a reply before I decided to just round up. Jesus was, is and shall ever be the Only Begotten of the Father. (As agrees the OT and NT)

If I point to prophecies and sayings of OT people and you can say nothing to counter it factually but still hold to your beliefs, then it further proves to me that Yahweh is not Allah, Jesus Christ is not Isa, David is not (whatever he is called in arabic), Isaiah etc; hence there is no point proceeding with the discussion !

For example

Psalm 110 :1 speaks of The Lord saying to the Lord, sit .. at My right hand...

Matthew 22:42-44 Jesus confirms that place as the Father speaking concerning the Messiah-Him!

The passage there in Hebrew and Greek clearly establishes that neither of the Two were created; John reinforces this and further clarifies that the Messiah is actually the latter in Psalm 110:1 made flesh for the purpose of Redemption, but had been with the Father from the begnning,

As if this was not enough, Malvis quoted Micah 5:2

“But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah;
From you One shall come forth for Me [who is] to be Ruler in Israel,
His goings forth (appearances) are from long ago,
From [a]ancient days.”


And Jesus confirmed the highlighted when He said ,''before Abraham was, I Am''.

If with all these you hold on to your views, then I submit that the GOD we know Whose Name as revealed is Yahweh (this is not translated as God dont get it mixed up), is not your Allah.

I just have to commend you for your time and effort. You gave your best shot. Thanks for your time.

Arjeeni:
yes was not but i am adding it based on previous comments.

remember the thread was not a for propaganda rather a means to iron out fact to clear falsehood beclouded the religions atmosphere

Well, it may not be so necessary because the God revealed in the Bible is not the same as Allah in the Quran so there might be no need ironing things out. They are parallels.

Arjeeni:
Going through the posts i can understand that ..........
out of other thing Jesus was never a God but alleged to be one due to miracles he was able to perform as proved to some prophecies.
Paul credibility was equally questioned in the bible to be hypocrite, this maybe due to the fact that he was known to be one of those hunted down anyone believed in Jesus then even till the demise of the christ.
out of all disciples, Paul was the one who deem it fit to write Bible and gospels christians follow today as ultimate source of their religions law.

Sir, Are you derailing your own thread already? These issues do not relate to your original topic!

MrPresident1:
2Timothy 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Now what day was Paul referring to? He was referring to that day when, ''in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed''.
1 Corinth 15:52

Matthew 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.[/b]

Paul says the Lord will give him and others a crown of righteousness when He comes, yet this generation will not pass away till all these things be fulfilled, and these words were written hundreds of years ago, and Paul passed away a long time ago too.

Yet he says he will be here to receive his crown in the generation Jesus is referencing.

Paul did not write Matthew! Besides, Jesus was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem which took place 70AD

Reincarnation?

Resurrection!

Inasmuch as Yahweh (and all that was revealed of Him milleniums ago) is not the same as Allah, we'll remain on two parallel lines of argument.

This is further corroborated by the fact that the Quran never mentioned that Name.

Thanks for your time.

ShyNeptune:
but logically, dreams and revelations can't be regarded as true sources of knowledge.

Well revelations/inspiration/open vision rank higher than dreams. Since God does reveal the future therewith, any wonder He can reveal thhe past using same?

ShyNeptune:
that of Paul is understandable. but that of moses, honestly I have no idea

Moses also wrote by inspiration and revelation just like Paul did.

ShyNeptune:
your moniker is really a reflection of who you are... nothing but a 'scholar' thanks for the clarification sir.

We thank God

ShyNeptune:
That's another Question I've been having in mind to ask. can you kindly tell us how moses where moses got his stories from?

Your answer to this is if you can find out how Paul got to know about the details of, and what transpired at the last supper being absent therefrom and before he met the apostles to compare notes. see 1 Corinth 11:23 and Galatians 1:11,12

ShyNeptune:
the question is who are these witnesses?

The ones mentioned in John 15:27 and Acts 1:21,22

ShyNeptune:
thanks for the clarification. ... Sir.

but how could Mary have Remembered every single detail of events that happened over the years. even in her absence..... ?
an example below is Luke chapter 1:15-18



without being biased, do you think Mary could have provided this detail? especially verse 16

Read Luke 1 further, this you have quoted was spoken to Zachariah, John's father, Elizabeth's husband. Remember Mary spent 3 months with Elizabeth when the latter was pregnant. Besides, all these details will be communicated then because before this time, Elizabeth had been barren and now was old so the circumstance behind this miracle of her conception (Luke 1:58) will be rehearsed in the community over and over again.

ShyNeptune:
how come Mary got to know the full details about the Adventures of the wise men? she knew all that happened in the then King Herod's palace.. and she never had access to the palace neither did she Journey with the wise men.. how then did she get to know all these if you claim she was the source of the Gospel........?
thanks for your previous reply.... I'm patiently anticipating your next reply sir

I did not say Mary was the source of the Gospel! You asked about the historical part, nativity etc

As regards that detail highlighted consider the extent of the news at that time:

1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judæa in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2 saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
3 When Herod the king had heard [size=14pt]these things[/size], he was troubled, [size=14pt]and all Jerusalem with him[/size].
Matthew 2:1-3

The coming of the wisemen and their inquiries was known to all Jerusalem! Not Herod alone. Meaning it was common knowledge and remember that these men came to Mary and Joseph.

Here are some highlights regarding the 'gospel of Barnabas'


The Messiah - Jesus or Muhammad?

John the Baptist denied that he was the Messiah when challenged by the Jewish leaders (John 1.20). The Gospel of Barnabas makes Jesus deny the same thing in much the same words:

Jesus confessed and said the truth: ‘I am not the Messiah ... I am indeed sent to the house of Israel as a prophet of salvation; but after me shall come the Messiah’. Gospel of Barnabas, paras 42, 82

Who was to be the coming Messiah, then? Elsewhere the Gospel makes Jesus say "The name of the Messiah is Admirable ... God said: Wait Mohammed; for thy sake I will to create paradise ... Mohammed is his blessed name" (para 97). Here the author of the Gospel of Barnabas completely overreaches himself for the Qur’an clearly states, no less than eleven times, that Jesus alone is the Messiah. The Bible confirms this too on many occasions (John 4.26, Matthew 16.20) and one quotation from the Qur’an will be sufficient to prove the point:

O Mary! Lo! Allah gives you glad tidings of a Word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the hereafter. Surah 3.45

The title here is Al-Masih, "the Messiah", and Jesus himself is called Al-Masihu Isa, "the Messiah Jesus", elsewhere in the book (Surah 4.171). So [size=14pt]the Gospel of Barnabas incontrovertibly contradicts the Qur’an when it declares that Muhammad was to be the Messiah[/size]. No Muslim can be true to his own holy book while at the same time trying to defend the Gospel of Barnabas as an authentic Gospel. undecided

What is very interesting here is the discovery that this Gospel not only contradicts the Qur’an but also itself. In the prologue to the book it speaks of "Jesus the Nazarene, called Christ" and states that it is the "true Gospel of Jesus, called Christ". [size=13pt]The author does not seem to have been aware that Messiah and Christ are interchangeable terms, meaning the same thing[/size]. The latter derives from the Greek word Christos which is a translation of the original Hebrew word Mashiah.

ShyNeptune:
Okay. I've been thinking. how did Matthew, Mark, Luke and John get their facts about the birth of Jesus? did Jesus personally tell them how he was born? I really wanna know.
If Yes, how come Jesus was able to provide every detail about his birth since he was a only a baby when everything happened..... ?
The only person I think Could have gotten the true info is John because he took Mary the mother of Jesus into his home.
But then, Mary, we were told was a lady who was reticent and reserved in nature. she preferred to ponder things in her her rather than tell her story.

so, Theologians in the house, can you help a confused fellow?

Mary was alive and witnessed the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. She was even in the upper room with the other disciples and apostles hence the source of that historical aspect is not far-fetched!
Her being reticent and reserved stands to be proved. I say this because when Jesus waited behind at Jerusalem, after He was found, Mary was the one to do the talking , not Joseph. At the marriage at Cana of Galilee, the Mary there was rather outspoken!

Arjeeni:
– A 1500-year-old Bible found in Turkey claims Jesus Christ was not crucified
– It also states he was not the son of God but a Prophet
– Religious authorities insist that the book is authentic

Earth-shattering news are coming from various websites! The 1500-year-old Bible, which was discovered in Ankara, Turkey’s capital, in 2000, refutes the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Moreover, it says that he was not the son of God but a Prophet, who didn’t die and ascended into heaven alive.

It also states that it was Judas Iscariot who was actually crucified and calls Apostle Paul the Impostor. This information was taken from the gospel of Barnabas, who in this work is one of the twelve apostles.

There is a theory that the modern Bible was formed out of four canonical gospels by the Catholic Church during the Council of Nicea, while the Gospel of Barnabas as well as many others were ommitted.
The book along with antiquities, illegal excavations, and explosives were reportedly confiscated from a group of smugglers in a Mediterranean-area operation. It is written in the Aramaic laguage with gold letters and onto loosely-tied leather.

The Bible that contradicts the New Testament teachings of Christianity is reportedly valued up to 40 million Turkish Liras (about $28m). While authenticity of the book is still under question some experts and religious authorities believe that it is original. However, some scholars branded the Gospel of Barnabas Bible a forgery written during the Middle Ages. Meanwhile, the Vatican has asked Turkish authorities to let them examine the contents of the book.

The new discovery to me was never a means to fault the belief system of Christianity rather a very important artifact that rewrite history long forgotten.
Before now christians only referred to Jesus as son of God but now many call him God the scenario of calling Jesus God is very recent and a need to address this become important.

Please, without offensive nor abusive comments, contribute your view about this and how the said Ancient Bible should be adopted or discarded.

https://www.naij.com/737721-1500-year-old-bible-claims-jesus-christ-not-crucified.html

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