₦airaland Forum

Empiree:
Brother, for God's sake, I really want to help you here. You just keep digging hole for yourself when i read your replies. Sometimes, i just wait it out and relax myself before responding bcus I feel like you are unconsciously coalescing identity of Jesus. This get muslims tired. As you can see from op's picture signature, he's tired. When I read over your reply now, it seems like you dont really listen to yourself. I dont blame bcus you kind of humble in your responses. I want to get you to Think and REASON again using your very own replies. I also think Christians play "hide and seek" game. That is, they use "flesh" to describe Jesus where and when it is convenient for them. Maybe we need to get neutral person to give their opinion on this. I mean non-muslim, non-christian. Now pay close attention at underlined and at bolded.

Point #1: Now look at the first underlined, you said he was born. He in the sentence refers to Jesus, correct?. So Jesus was born. But earlier, remember you said God has no beginning, no ending and the Bible says nothing looks like him. But Jesus looks like us.

Point #2: Bolded part says "I came down from heaven" which could also mean he was born. We all (including empire and scholar) came down from heaven in that sense. So he came down for ministry not of his(Jesus) own accord but (read the last clause) on behalf of the One (God) who sent him(Jesus). Can you see two different personalities in this passage of the Bible?. The verse is very clear that Jesus is a messenger. I know you gonna bring about "he was in flesh". Honestly, that's a theory innovated - that has absolutely nothing significant. I am doing breakdown for you sir.

Point #3 Look at this verse of the Bible 'I' i:e Jesus came from the Father. The same 'I' appears in the second sentence I leave the world, and go to the Father. "Father in this sentence is God indicating another personality. Two different people. Which indicates that he was sent by God to Children of Israel to deliver message like other prophets and messengers before him. And then he(Jesus) went back to Him(Allah), just like other prophets. Are you getting it, sit?

Point #4: Here Jesus is called son of David. He is also called Son of God. I am sure he is also called son of other men in the Bible like Jesus son of Josef. This i have said earlier that "son" is metaphorically used in the Bible. Empire and scholar are also sons of God because we are debating intelligently and for others to learn few tings as well. A thief who reforms himself is also son of God. A good Samaritan is also son of God. Remember in primary school, when we make noise in class, our teachers used to tell us to be quiet and they would say son of God dont make noise. Son of the devil do. This brings a critical question actually. If Jesus is Son of God (whatever that means to you), how then he is also the Father at the same time?.

Point #5: You called Jesus(p) a messiah @ underlined. What is messiah by definition?. The Bible verse you quoted indicating holy spirit does not in anyway proof Jesus's Divinity. Do you not have pastor who also claim they are in spirit (when they are doing their thing)?. Does that make them Divine?

Point #6: It is not clear by my breakdown now that Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of God - (SENT) by God is God's creature?. I tried hard to break it down fo r you mister.

Point #8: All God's prophets and messengers (including Jesus) believed in One God WITHOUT partner(s). The confusion lies with translators and writers of the Bible. For as long as you believe in the Bible, you will NEVER, ever be able to correctly figure out identity of Jesus. Bible clearly differentiate him from God. In other part it mixes them up which suggest CORRUPTION, DISTORTION, OMITTION and ADDITION of the Bible. Open your eyes. We talk about different Bible writers earlier in this thread, about unknown people from unknown places at unknown places. If this doesnt awake your heart i dont know what else will.. Mystery about God is, we do not know His beginning and He does not have ending. And other non- human Attributes of His. That's it. No human incarnation with God, no trinity etc.

Point #9: I dont think this is hard though. I am glad you understand the royal We unlike your fellow Christians who stubbornly distort it essence. Now let's break this down. Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. Isaiah 6:8


"I" represent Isaiah (or whoever the speaker was). Bolded part is God speaking (according to this verse). The last sentence "Then I said I , here I am ; send me." is the same first person speaking, Isaiah (or whoever the speaker was). This verse only needed to be properly punctuated. Thats all. Like this:

Isaiah 6:8

"Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, 'Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?'. Then said 'I, Here am I; send me'".

Anything confusing you here?. "Us" in the verse denotes God. Royal Us.

Now, Jesus is Messiah here?. What is Messiah?
To be honest with you, I dont want to attach the quote for Mat 22:42-44. Dont want to waste more time. I believe Bible or Gospel needs to be rewrote with original manuscripts

(which is unfortunately lost by 80 percent anyways). When i was reading Mat 22:42-44, the case letter for son and lord are lower cases. Also mixed with upper cases. This is clear deception and manipulation. In my opinion, if they are to ever re-write Bible, not only will they need to work on proper translation but also punctuations and cases. Your Book is very confusing. Thats why there are different doctrines in Christendom.

However, this is not by accident by the way. The reason you are all confused and having different doctrines is bcus you reject Faith(Truth). As a result of that, God sealed your heart. Read what Quran says to this effect. SUrah Maidah (5:14)


[Al-Muntakhab Translation]

"And with those who declare themselves Christians, We entered into a covenant: Never deviate from the path of righteousness and adhere faithfully to the authentic Scriptures. But they willfully neglected a part of what was imparted to them. In consequence, We stirred up enmity and hatred among them till the Day of Resurrection. Allah shall inform them of their habitual course of action relevant to their evil deeds, and punish them accordingly."

First all, nothing wrong with flesh biologically. It is God who created it. God is Good. It depends on how we use ourselves. But to declare that "flesh" is inherently evil is vile. However, maybe I should ask you if what you meant by "flesh" here is different?.

Well, if you are referring to creation of Jesus @ underlined, yes, the Creative Power of Allah "Be! and he (Jesus came into being) and it is" brought Jesus into being. In that case, Jesus became a man born of woman. So yes, in that case Gnostics are incorrect. But while you are correct that Word became flesh, using that term, to you the Word that became flesh is God which is tantamount to falsehood. Allah was not present physically with Mary. It was Angel Gabriel, through him, Allah breathed into Maryam(as) of His(Allah) spirit.

Is there a legitimate body that oversees translations of the Bible?. For instance, in Islam, almost in every Muslim country, one can not just print Quran without going through extensive scrutiny. You can go to jail if you translate and print nonsense. Why dont they have the same institution in Christianity so that every Tom, Dick and Harry dont translate and print garbage?. Another Bible is about to be published, "Kanye Gospel". Perhaps this Bible will be Hip Hop friendly like Skate, Kiddie, Gay and Women's Gospels. The list goes on.

Yes, it is always about the flesh. You use flesh when it sooths you

. Allow me to do quick case experiment. SInce you believe God, Jesus and holy Ghost are one (3-1), it means all three are not detachable, correct?. Implications are quiet profound. That means,


#when Jesus was on ministry on earth, the three of them are there all along

#he was flesh and at that moment or for those moment of years on earth, no one was custodian of heavens etc

#When Jesus was crucified (according to you), it means all three were on the cross together

#plus he was seen by people

Now, with these four implications mentioned above, clearly, they contradict John 5:37. So the idea of Jesus being God and man at the same time is nothing but innovation after Jesus.

Read this verse of Quran again.

"And with those who declare themselves Christians, We entered into a covenant: Never deviate from the path of righteousness and adhere faithfully to the authentic Scriptures. But they willfully neglected a part of what was imparted to them. In consequence, We stirred up enmity and hatred among them till the Day of Resurrection. Allah shall inform them of their habitual course of action relevant to their evil deeds, and punish them accordingly."

Covenant mentioned in the verse is the believe in and worship of One God which the verse further said you have forgotten. There is nowhere to my knowledge where Jesus acknowledged being God and flesh. This is forgery penned down by men after this mighty messenger of Allah had ascended. Enough said

facheux:
Versions version version

facheux:
What one is that. What is the criteria that sets it apart

facheux:
What one is that. What is the criteria that sets it apart

acooriz:
People of god...as referred by the magisterium ..purgatory as it stands just like st paul said would be a cleansing or testing of those ...so that they look like dey are tested by fire

gemale:
& where is d word trinity or Godhead mentioned in the Bible. Y do u believe in d trinity if it's nt mentioned in d bible?

Ioannes:
I'm sorry but that isn't the answer to my poser.

why did Paul say "...WORK out your salvation in FEAR and TREMBLING"?

I hope you know the meaning of "to work out something".

and why in FEAR AND TREMBLING if it's just a proof of something that is already there.

seemples:
Can't seem to find where anybody quoted what 1 John5:7said.

What's the argument about please?

alienvirus:
-It also states he was not the son of God but a Prophet
– Religious authorities insist that the book is authentic

Earth-shattering news are coming from various websites! The 1500-year-old Bible, which was discovered in Ankara, Turkey’s capital, in 2000, refutes the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Moreover, it says that he was not the son of God but a Prophet, who didn’t die and ascended into heaven alive.

It also states that it was Judas Iscariot who was actually crucified and calls Apostle Paul the Impostor. This information was taken from the gospel of Barnabas, who in this work is one of the twelve apostles.

There is a theory that the modern Bible was formed out of four canonical gospels by the Catholic Church during the Council of Nicea, while the Gospel of Barnabas as well as many others were ommitted. The book along with antiquities, illegal excavations, and explosives were reportedly confiscated from a group of smugglers in a Mediterranean-area operation. It is written in the Aramaic laguage with gold letters and onto loosely-tied leather.

The Bible that contradicts the New Testament teachings of Christianity is reportedly valued up to 40 million Turkish Liras (about $28m). While authenticity of the book is still under question some experts and religious authorities believe that it is original. However, some scholars branded the Gospel of Barnabas Bible a forgery written during the Middle Ages. Meanwhile, the Vatican has asked Turkish authorities to let them examine the contents of the book.

Read more: https://www.naij.com/737721-1500-year-old-bible-claims-jesus-christ-not-crucified.html

Empiree:
Yes, of course but only in the sense that He (God) NOT Jesus has no beginning, no ending, not born of human, does not eat, drink, sleep, does not die, was not hanged or nailed, can not be seen by human, does not look like human or anything, has no genealogy. And the list goes on. That is mystery.

But Jesus is not because he had the beginning (was born by a woman). He died according to you( was captured, hanged or nailed on the cross), he ate, he slept, he poo poo, he has genealogy, he was seen by human and the list goes on.

See how simple that was?. That's Islam. Nothing complicated at all. Two distinctive (B)beings.

Meaning there is no part of the Quran that actually/expressedly verifies that hadith?
I'd rather ignore this because you will never understand if you dont understand identity of Jesus let alone God. No pawn intended

Sch8200:
Now is it allowed that a hadith validates another hadith? Especially when the former might not (subject to your answer to penultimate question)have been expressedly validated in the Quran?
Emp:
@underlined, yes. It is called "mutawathir" when a hadith has sound chains of narration to the prophet(p) himself, especially when the ahadith are identical and expressed or narrated by different sahaba multiple times. So it applies to the issue of 'grant'. Dajjal is also a case study.

Empire.e:
I will ask you same question asked in the book i posted. Who is God?. Who is Holy Spirit or Ghost?, Who is Jesus?. You do not need to sweat to answer this. Very simple question. Muslims can answer this question in a simple word.

Sch8200:
To deny the Divinity of the Son is to deny everything about the Work of Redemption! How then is such an one a Christian? It is a mystery revealed to an extent. But we cannot force our intellect to complete the parts not revealed in understanding. That will be heretical.
Emp:
In that case how about other Sons of God mentioned in the Bible?. Aren't they supposed to be Divine as well since they too are Sons?. Listen uncle scholar, you dont understand. What Bible meant by Son/son is metaphorical. If you said no, then, this is in conflict with ALL three (God, Holy Ghost and Jesus) you mentioned above because you said all three are God and now you said Son is also God. Who is the "Son" ?

Quran condemns this;


And say, "Praise to Allah , who has not taken a son and has had no partner in [His] dominion and has no [need of a] protector out of weakness; and glorify Him with [great] glorification." Sura 17:111



"And they say, "The Most Merciful has taken [for Himself] a son.",' preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack, the earth split asunder, and the mountains crumble to dust. That they attribute to the Most Merciful a son, And it is not appropriate for the Most Merciful that He should take a son.." Sura 19:88-



"Say, [O Muhammad], {to the Christians} "If the Most Merciful had a son, then I would be the first of [his] worshippers." Surah 43:81



"And to warn those who say, " Allah has taken a son." They have no knowledge of it, nor had their fathers. Grave is the word that comes out of their mouths; they speak not except a lie." Surah 18: 4-5

Sch8200
When the Father said (referring to the Son):
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8
Isaiah also called the Son the Mighty God! Isaiah was also an Israelite who cried, Hear O Israel, the Lord thy God is One Lord!

Do I have perfect understanding thereof? No. Do I believe it? Yes, God said it!
Emp:
Good. @bolded, so why wasn't Isaiah Divine as well.....since he's also called Son with upper case 'S'?. Are you being discriminatory and cherry picking here? "son" is metaphorical?.

I asked: " Who was governing the rest of the planet at that point the flesh suffered limitations?"


You Said:

GOD of course! The Omnipotent,Omniscient and Omnipresent!
Yes Jesus even said, " The FAther that dwelleth in Me, He does the Works" and furthermore Jesus said," if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God"
John 14:10, Matthew 12:28. This underscores His Omnipresence and that this Divine attribute was unaffected when the Word became flesh!
Emp:
Confusion. Mister, it is time to transit from Christianity to Islam. Your choice

Sch8200
And was Mohammed's witness in agreement with that of Jesus' disciples! If the Criteria for the mortal men here was that they had ben with Him from the commencement of His earthly ministry, does Muhammed, another mortal, qualify on this ground?
Emp:
It was only a revelation to Muhammad(p). He was not there when Jesus was said to have foretold of him. Allah only relaid the message to him in the Quran to assure him of his messangership and prophethood

Sch8200
If the only way Jesus would be glorified was to be by writing, then the Spanish author of the failed 'gospel of barnabas' could also make similar claims on ground of his book!
Emp:
And what other way(s) do you also anticipate. Elaborate, please?.

Sch8200:
Note that this was a promise for the future!
Emp:
Yup!. At the time Jesus(p) made the prophecy, Muhammad (p) was yet to arrive. What other future do you anticipate, past or present?

Sch8200:
If this be true then Jesus was actually crucified and He died!!! Then, His resurrection is likewise true!!! Else, He is not there meaning the claim that all mankind goes there is Wrong! Otherwise, He is not ordinary Man hence though HE came as a Man, He still did not go there because He was also beyond Man! By implication, the record and account in the Bible is right ab initio!
Any objections?

But the distinctness of the Personalities has been established?!
Emp:
@underlined, to keep it simple and staright forward, since you said Jesus is god, then it means your God was killed by the very same people he created, correct?. THINK BROTHER, think.

Jesus Appears to the Disciples


Now, concerning so called death of Jesus or the alleged crucifixion, Bible disagrees with you, sir. There is no need to post Quran.

As disciples thought was dead, Jesus appeared to them as reported by Luke, (Luke 24:36-50)

36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
i:e Salaam Alaikum

37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost.


38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds?


39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”[u] shocked shocked shocked grin


41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, [u]“Do you have anything here to eat?”


42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish,


43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.



Anything else?

Empiree:
Scholar8200:
GOD as we know Him!
Emp:
So God is omnipotent, omniscience, He has No beginning, No Ending. Thats very correct. How then can you explain how Jesus is God knowing fully well he has the beginning (i:e born from woman's vagina, circumcised, breastfed, grew up like you and I) and according to you, he died; which means that was his end. How does that compared to the former?. Can you reason?. Or you gonna tell me later run that it is just a mystery?

The is becoming a case of "sumu bukum umuyun fahum laa yari jiun". i:e deaf, dump and blind, they will not return to the straight Path Q 2:18

And your Bible said something similar

"Because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." - Matthew 13:13
Sound familiar?

Sch8200:
The concept of One being with the Father from the beginning was obviously taken by Heriaclitus around 6BC (not even Philo) and defaced to reflect Gnostics' belief of there being many intermediaries between God and the material world and Gnostics further claim that Logos was the highest of all the intermediaries! This is an obvious theft of Inspiration/Intellectual material from the Hebrews by the Greeks, and prostituting same to reflect one's belief (A skill much used by Gnostics and attempted by the learner who forged the 'gospel of Barnabas' trying to steal the Gospel and weave Islam into it but he failed woefully!)
Emp:
Honestly, it is really irrelevant to me whether it was plagiarized by Philo or not. Born of contention is Jesus is NOT God. God merely breath Jesus's soul in Mary(p) and she conceived Jesus(p). Very simple and straightforward. Whats all that 'he became flesh after he came down and all that?. Does that make sense to you?. Where did Jesus make such allegations?

Sch8200
Now let's see the belief in the Father and Son as shown in the OTsadRemember that all these were written milleniums before Heriaclitus!

1. Psalm 110:1
The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Bare in mind that David who wrote this was an Israelite who believed that,"the Lord our God is One Lord!
This is a mystery!
Emp:
Good thing you even brought OT into this. I am sure you do not believe David(p) is God?. If so reading the verse you cited, in your opinion, it is mystery because it appears there are Two Lords refernce in the verse. Bible translators did a very bad job. There are other translations of the Bible with lower case for the second person 'lord'. A similar passage can be found in Matthew 22:44

We have a case like this in Quran as well:

"And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands,....." {Surah Al-Baqara, 124}

^ read the verse carefully. The first person singular who is conveying this message is Allah(God). Read the way the way the sentence is constructed with the second 'person' Lord with upper letter L. Is that referring to another Creator (of Abraham)? Answer is no. There is nothing mystical about it. The Lord mentioned in this verse refers to Allah.

It is like this; when i was a boy and i would do something silly, my mommy would rebuff me and said these words:

"If you mommy is saying something you have got to listen"

Now, it was only two of us but I mommy mentions another mommy in this sentence. Is she referring to someone else? Answer that, please?

Here are other similar verses in the Quran

"Behold! his Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to Me):" He said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe." (Surah Al-Baqara, 131)

Read this:

"And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, "My Lord, show me [Yourself] that I may look at You." [Allah] said, "You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me." But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell unconscious. And when he awoke, he said, "Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers."

Many more of that in the Quran.

Now, the verse you quoted above as reference, according to you there are multiple Lords including David, if David(p) was also in spirit as Bible writers want us to believe, why is he not also God?. I hope I am making sense to you?. I really can not help you further with this. It is no mystery at all. The Bible translators and writers misused upper and lower cases a lot....inappropriately.

Once again remember that these were people whose rallying cry was:
Hear O Israel, the Lord your God is One Lord!
It is not complicated at all. You need to question Bible translators/writers. Despite them being english speakers, they did bad job.

This is Islam: "Hear O Israel, the Lord your God is One Lord!". Thats called "tawheed" in Islam i:e Oneness of God. Very clear and straightforward. Refer to analysis given above.

Sch8200:
Now we see an obvious contradiction by Philo and his ilks:

Philo&co : Logos is a thought or reason hence when God expresses the word, He says Be and it is so.

Now the same Philo: ]u]Logos is the highest of the demiurges,[/u] an intermediary between God and the material world!

Here Philo tries real hard to reconcile his jewish background and his hellenistic philosophies the result? CONFUSION!

Where exactly do they stand!? This happens and proves that the Fact of the Divine Nature was stolen and there was a battle in keeping the concept while at the same time prostituting it to suit their purposes!
Emp:
I am not relying on Philo's theory per se. I only brought up his idea to counter your claims. Philo's theory also somehow complicated actually. Indeed, Philo did make good point contrary to your claims that God can be God and man at the same time. But Philo did not consider God similar to heaven, the world, or man; his God existed neither in time nor space and had no human attributes or emotions. He argued that God has no attributes, in consequence no name, and for that reason he cannot be perceived by man. Philo's views @underlined is very similar to Islam.

Quran says God Allah is above heavens

Allah (swt) says

“He is the one who created the heavens and the earth in six days and then made istiwa (rose over) over his throne.” [EMQ Hadid: 4]


God does have Attributes that are Majestic. Philo also said he does not compare God to man or His creation. And that God cannot be perceived. This is very true. Qurand and Bible agree with this except that chritians contradict the Bible a lot.

Here is Quran:

"[He is] Creator of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you from yourselves, mates, and among the cattle, mates; He multiplies you thereby. There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing." Q 42:11


"LORD, there is no one like you! For you are great, and your name is full of power" Jeremiah 10:6

"Isaiah 46:9 — For I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me." Question: How is Jesus God?. How is he like God?
Why did you guys messed up everything in the NT baffles me.

Herer again, Quran declares:


"There is no one to share His dominion, nor does He take an aide or supporter from His creatures. He is nearer to man than man's own jugular vein." Al-Qur'an 50:16

The verse ^ debunks your claim 3 in 1 theory, trashes your man-god theory and so fourth.

Sch8200:
Now then Why did John retain the Word Logos? Simple. It was known to the Hebrews that Wisdom was the One that Expressed/Revealed the Father:
Emp:
I am glad at underlined. It was John doing his thing NOT Jesus(p), NOT under Jesus supervision. And Jesus spoke Aramaic not Hebrew. Hence, still hold no water. Unless and until you can point out with 100% FACT it was Jesus made the statement in John 1:1, which does not make sense to begin with, this case is dismissed. Even Bible commentary on this passage makes no sense.

Sch8200:
Besides, the Gnostic Greeks regards matter (eg the flesh) to be intrinsically evil hence the Word being made flesh is in total contradistinction with the Philo/Grecian/Gnostic views!
Emp:
And where are you driving at here?. I support Philo on this one. You believe in the former (theory) which has no Divine basis.

This is why the same John, having these Grecio/Gnostic corrupters in mind said:

and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1John 4:3
Emp:
Hold on. I am confused here. What are you saying?. Whats your creed of this verse?

Sch8200:
Interesting, now read and judge:

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 1:18
So , was this also mistranslated? The Son IS the Word as Hebrews 1:2,3 confirms. Note that John did not write Hebrews and the thought here agrees with the Son revealing/expressing the Father!
Emp:
Can you see this is in conflict with other Bible verses and Quran?. And even it is in conflict with other Bible version. This verse in itself is confusion. Now read these Versions

English Standard Version
"No one has ever seen God; the only God[b], who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.





[b]International Standard Version
"No one has ever seen God. The unique God, who is close to the Father's side, has revealed him."





GOD'S WORD® Translation
No one has ever seen God. God's only Son, the one who is closest to the Father's heart, has made him known.




Young's Literal Translation
God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father -- he did declare.



The versions are confusing let alone compare them with this Bible verse:

"And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form," - John 5:37

CoolUsername:
But the Trinity is a religious construct.

Sch8200
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
John 17:4,5
Emp:
Please refer to the attachment. John 1:1 explained.

Sch8200:
Okay he grants permission to people to enter paradise? This verily contradicts:

Muslim also reported from Anas that the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "I will come to the gates of paradise and ask for it to be opened. The gatekeeper will ask, "Who are you?" I will say, "Muhammad". The gatekeeper will say, "I was ordered not to open the gate for anyone else before you"". [Saheeh Muslim]

Who will give this order? That must be the one that grants access then not Mohammed!

You believe he will go there but does the Quran agree with the hadith that he will be the one to grant permissions for who enters?
Emp:
We have no problem comprehending this hadith at all. It is Allah who has the Final say. He is the One Who grants paradise. None else. It is He {Allah} alone who gives the Order. It not Jesus not Muhammad(pbut). Statement like this in the hadith pretext and under the umbrella of intercession granted the Muhammad(p).

Nutshell, a Muslim who observes obligatory duties to the best of his ability and do good deeds as much as he can, even if he has minor misdeeds or even bad deeds, prophet Muhammad(p) will still intercede for him/her. If the prophet(p) intercedes for any muslim, it is incumbent on Allah to accept his intercession. He(p) intercedes for a muslim knowing fully well he/she already met requirements. This is my little way i can explain the hadith. I know there are better explanation of it. The intercession of the Prophet is nothing more than Honor that Allah (swt) has given him. He is granted right of intercession as reported in Hadith no: 331:


Allah's Apostle said, "I have been given five things which were not given to any amongst the Prophets before me. These are:

1. Allah made me victorious by awe (by His frightening my enemies) for a distance of one month's journey.

2. The earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying and a thing to perform Tayammum. Therefore my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due.

3. The booty has been made Halal (lawful) for me (and was not made so for anyone else).

4. Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation exclusively but I have been sent to all mankind.

5. I have been given the right of intercession (on the Day of Resurrection.)

Okay. As regards the highlighted, that was said after the Word became flesh and assumed the form of a Servant.
I will ask you same question asked in the book i posted. Who is God?. Who is Holy Spirit or Ghost?, Who is Jesus?. You do not need to sweat to answer this. Very simple question. Muslims can answer this question in a simple word.

There is NO repentance after death! It's a Divine principle.
Okay. I see you used capital NO which means it definitive. How about a christian (he/she does not believe Jesus is God, only believe Jesus is son of God). What happens to such christian?

Sch8200:
Because, at this point, the Word was flesh and had willingly subjected Himself to the limitations of mortal man!
Emp:
And at the time he became flesh and subjected Himself to the limitations, remember you used capital H for Himself to denote God, The Supreme Being. At that time, i assume He was already on the earth and weak (no offense intended). Who was the authority in the Heavens at that moment He was in flesh and dwelt among humans?

Sch8200:
You are wrong. It's 3 in 1 not 1 in 1! The use of lower case points to the time of the translation and the need to be faithful to the mss to the details!Even the OT uses he for the Father!
Emp:
Okay 3 in 1. I got it. Now this is even more complicated. So this is "trinity" right?. Father Son and Spirit. Who is Father?, Son, and Spirit?. Are they same thing or different personalities?. Now refer back to quote rightly above this. Since you said they are 3 in 1 which means they move together as supposed. In other word, when the flesh was on earth, whatever that means, it means all 3 were on earth at the same time in flesh, correct? Who was governing the rest of the planet at that point the flesh suffered limitations?

Sch8200:
You appear to have forgotten the place quoted: Here is it:
John 15;26a,27
But when the Comforter is come...he shall tetsify of me.you also shall bear witness because:YOU HAVE BEEN WITH ME FROM THE BEGINNING
Emp:
Obviously, that statement fits prophet Muhammad wholeheartedly. Muhammad(p) praised Jesus, recognized Jesus, told us story of Jesus from the scratch. So where is rhe holy spirit that brought and testified about Jesus, where is he?. In this translation posted used "comforter" not holy spirit. Who is that comforter?

Emp:
Now compare that statement of Jesus with what Quran claims Jesus said:


"And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic." Surah As-saf (61:6)


Sounds familiar?.


Remember that same passages of the Bible even further to say "comforter" would glorify him(Jesus). I am sure you read in the Quran where Jesus is glorified and his status is higher in the sight of Allah. Then in the hadith there are bunch of stories about Jesus and statements of Muhammad talking and praising him and he being praised by Jesus, too. Good to know that you came up with "comforter". Other translation used helper, advocate, Paraclete etc. So basically, Bible writers played you guys with 'holy spirit'. We believe in what Quran says and thats what Jesus uttered. He(Jesus - p) mentioned Muhammad by name - his other name Ahmad. Ahmad means "highly praised" etc. Sounds familiar?.

Keep it simple. Are those Christians who do not believe Jesus is God, who do not believe in trinity any less Christians?. Are they going to hell?. Those people do not consider themselves antichrist. I have them in my friends cycle. they are not occult. They firmly believe Bible support their doctrines.

Sch8200:
(We condemn the Greeks for cutting off 1 John 5:7, we disclaim the versions that make grievous changes and we hail the Vaudois for upholding every jot in the Word at the expense of their lives this being the version in agreement with the KJV!)
Emp:
We dont omit any verse from the Quran or add to it. What you said here confirms distortion of the bible. Correct?

Sch8200:
So where is Jesus, Abraham, Moses now? Especially Jesus?
Emp:
Barzakh (Purgatory). The Stage Between this World and the Hereafter. Not only prophets but all mankind since the time of Adam until Judgment Day. Technically Barzakh is a realm kept by the Lord of the Universe between this world of ours and the forthcoming Hereafter in such a way that both might maintain their individual limits. Barzakh is a state between these worldly and otherworldly affairs.


Halfway between Reward and Punishment

After entering the world of Barzakh one does not experience physical pains like headache, toothache and such other troubles. Such suffering forms a part of the essentials of the material world. But there, in Barzakh, it is the realm of abstracts or of incorporeal beings. Of course, it can also not be called the Hereafter, which may mean that there will be only darkness for the sinners and only light for the obedient ones.


Some people asked the Imam (a.s.) about the duration of Barzakh. He replied, “It is from the moment of death up to the time when all will rise from their graves regaining life.
The Holy Qur’an says:

...and before them is a barrier until the day they are raised. (23:100)

Sch8200:
I believe the highlighted is a deliberate attempt at mockery especially when a lot has been said regarding this issue namely the Father being distinct from the Son and yet being One. No problem.
For saying this?:


"Father humbled Himself to be servant and son. And ultimately allowed himself to be nailed?. Fantastic!"

Emp:
Honestly it is no joke at all. Sometimes we just have to be blunt. This is a matter of salvation. If i was mocking you i would posted pictures like i did with ifeann, malvis and co. I know you sound rational. Why would i mock you. Believe it or not, it is blasphemy to say God came down, relegated Himself and became flesh......Nauzubillah.

Empiree:
Scholar8200:
Sure HE is.
Who is He (referring to omnipotent, omniscience).....God or Jesus?

Yes, i knew it is all about John. This begs the question of plagiarism actually. This prologue is intended to identify Jesus as the eternal Word (Logos) of God. Thus John asserts Jesus' innate superiority over all divine messengers, whether angels or prophets. Here John adapts the doctrine of the Logos, God's creative principle, from Philo, a 1st-century Hellenized Jew. Philo had adopted the term Logos from Greek philosophy, using it in place of the Hebrew concept of Wisdom (sophia) as the intermediary (angel) between the transcendent Creator and the material world. Some scholars argue that the prologue was taken over from an existing hymn and added at a later stage in the gospel's composition.

And by the way; the doctrine of logos was originally created by a Jew(Philo), not a Christian, so it kinda debunks trinitarian claims.

When one copies material and presents it as his own; thats what we call plagiarism; how is plagiarized material considered 'Word Of God' by Christians?

A Muslim debater and the author of Muslim Christian Dialogue, by H.M. Baagil argued that John 1:1 is a clear mistranslation of Greek word

Theoú i:e God's {indicating possessive noun} was mistranslated as Theós (God). Which means Jesus is a word "Be! and he was" which preceded from Allah. That's Jesus is creation of God. He is not God. Refer to attachment below

Sch8200:Father spoke from Heaven after He (Jesus) was baptised. That tells you God was on the Throne all along!
Emp:
This is utterly irrelevant soon as John 1:1 is trashed. I know you are unconsciously blaspheming God. I dont blame you at all. And I am not mocking you. But you really need to stop this dangerous doctrine and ponder carefully.

Sch8200:
The nearest you will get is where HE confirmed His being with the Father (as John 1:1,2 confirms) from the beginning:
Emp:
I advice you to get free copy or download a free book titled Muslim Christian dialogue by H.M.BAAGIL.
http://www.sultan.org/books/muslimchristianialogue.pdf

sonofthunder:
thank you Sir...
i pray for more of God's wisdom upon you in Jesus name, amen

sonofthunder:
I had another moniker before this .... shyna01... but its been deactivated.

sonofthunder:
your patience sir is out of this world... this is new moniker, you may not remember the previous one.

herald9:
The main idea of my post was why their women lived up to that extent but still possessed the same menstrual cycle like us, normal humans... Not which generation lived longer or shorter.

ValentineMary:
I really did not want to comment but I can't stand seeing insanity and ignorance being passed as faith.

And u also said that God was testing him. For what is he no longer omniscient? was it not an expected result? so God should have just blessded him without all this cruel show of babarism.

Empiree:
Scholar8200:
The Bible clearly says the Word was God and that the Word became flesh and being found in fashion as a man, He made Himself of no reputation and became a Servant. Hence all those descriptions of human body etc are in order!
Empiree:
And which Bible version, who wrote it and did God or Jesus approve of it?. Christians believe God is omnipotent, omniscience....that He has no beginning nor ending.

But reading your same Bible, if you believe Jesus is God, then there is conflicts here bcus we read in the Bible about Jesus limitations. We read his beginning and his death. So you will have to question Bible writers how they got it mixed up.

And when he became flesh, which means his power was limited. Who was then the authority of heavens and controlling angels, water and sea, birds and animal and fishes, Jinn and other unseen while the flesh was on earth?.....did he put the heaven in autopilot grin

Schola8200:
For the same reason! Just when He said none is good but God alone, He wasnt implying that He was sinful but Yes, the Word had become flesh!
You really getting complicated.
Empiree:
This issue of Jesus being God and man at the same time is a theory borne of innovation. Since Jesus is the authority in Christianity, it only makes sense to confirm this theory from him directly. Where did he make statement like he was God that became flesh?

Sch8200:
Now did Mohammed mean he will open the gates of paradise to the person? But Jesus said He will send the Spirit and that the Spirit will come In HIS NAME.
Emp:
Sorry, he is not a gate-man. It is euphemism of saying "you are granted paradise" or "I grant you permission to enter paradise". Simple isnt?

Sch8200:
Now, do you mean Mohammed was referring to himself doing it when this was said:

Surah Al Hijr Chapter 15 verse 29

“When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.” [Al-Qur’an 15:29]

Emp:
You just got this wrong. Muhammad's word is not in the Quran. The verse you quoted is the word of Allah

Sch8200
But Jesus was referring to Himself in accordance with the prophecy of John the baptist that," He shall baptize with the Holy Ghost"

There is a difference!
Emp.
Reference?

Muslims have no problem with this statement at all. We have NO DOUBT that Muhammad {Allah's Peace and Blessings be upon him} and his followers will go to paradise. One of the common understanding of this verse is, a muslim who claims to follow Islam but he has bad attitude, he does not observe obligatory duties often (like skipping salat, not fasting ramadan or follow the rules, not paying zakat etc), such a person should not expect the prophet to intercede for him/her. We have to help ourselves first by obeying and observing religious duties.

As for the Hereafter, I seek refuge in Allah and he (i.e. the Prophet) knew that he was going to paradise, but he said "I don't know what He (i.e. Allah) will do to me and to you in this life. Will I be kicked out just as the Prophets (may Allah bestow His peace and blessings upon them) before me were kicked out? Or would I be killed just as the Prophets before me were killed?"

And this is the opinion that Ibn Jareer (i.e. Tabari) took and insisted that there should not be another opinion in this matter; for there is no doubt that this is the suitable explanation that suits the Prophet (peace be upon him). This is because in regards to the Hereafter it is certain that he (i.e. the Prophet) will go to paradise along with those who followed him. And in regards to this life, he didn't know what was going to happen to him or the polytheists of Quraysh. Were they going to believe, or disbelieve and be punished and extirpated for their disbelief?


Now, dont we we similar statement of Jesus in the bible? Jesus said i can do nothing

"But He will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' Luke 13:27

Why wont Jesus just 'forgive' them since he has power to do so according to you?

"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Mark 13:32

Why he does not know this?^

Sch8200:
Are all true believers? Even Jesus withdrew from some that appeared to believe on Him because He knew they were not wholehearted! So divisions etc does not nullify the Word!
Emp:
No no my friend. We are dealing with Christian doctrine and matter of SALVATION here. If some Christians believe Jesus is God and some believe he is not, if some Christians believe in trinity and some christian dont, if some Christians believe Jesus is son of God and some christian dont, this is clear contradiction and confusion. It means christians do not know Jesus identity but fallacies and hearsays. This is matter of salavation not to joke with. It is not a matter of moral or judgement that may be forgiven. When it comes to SALVATION, Jesus proclaimed God is One. Where did you get trinity from (3 in 1)?

Who said so?
Your Bible. Your Bible confuses you. At some point it portrays Jesus as a separste being from God. In another places, they are portray as same one. For instance, where they supposed to use lower case 'he' for Jesus, bible writer(s) use capital case 'He'. Same applies to 'Son' or 'son'. 'Me' or 'me' etc Then christian get confused. Bible writers really put in perpetual doubt.

Sch8200:
And both are Perfect in One:
that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee,
John 17:21a
Emp:
grin grin grin And why didnt you complete the verse?. You left this out

".......that they {disciples} also may be one in us:...."

So it is actually more than 3 gods. It is now 3+12 disciples = 15 (at the minimum) grin Dont let Dr. Zakir Naik , tola9ja, rilwayne001 hear about this. You would be laughed at

Sch8200
To know Who Jesus was read the NT? Not the views of men. Yes Jesus approved of the NT! Both the Gospels and the Epistles!
Emp
Lol....now Jesus approved NT?. But earlier you said he did not read NT, that he aleready ascended to heaven before NT was written. I hope you aren't trying to me do me wayo.

@underlined, isnt the same Bible you all read that got you confused in the first place?. I am sure if you ask 10 christian who is Jesus, you would get different answers. This video is a hint. It is only 10 mins long. Or watch from 4mins to see confusion grin

Sch8200
The presence of the counterfeit (and there are many) shows there IS an Authentic! The basis of test is the Word! The early Church is an example! Going through Acts you will find a number of times that they all acted with ONE ACCORD, this Unity still exists not necessarily within a denomination but among true believers scattered all over the World!
Emp:
I am not concerned about factions. I am talking about doctrines. There are factions in Islam as well. But non of them believe Muhammad is God. But you said among believers(Christians) all over the world, it is "one accord". Whats that accord?. The only thing i can think of is you all call yourselves "Christians". That's it. Your doctrines differ. How is Jesus is God and Jesus is not God as believed by Christians (Unitarian and Trinitarian) could be same road to salvation? These are clear different doctrines led by "holy ghost"

What does the highlighted mean?
This is for muslims actually. I can relate to this because i grew up experiencing this. However common translation of the verse does not want to bring about controversies. As a result of that they put in parenthesis (at the time of death). Like this:


"Verily, those who say:, "Our Lord is Allah", and, further, stand straight and steadfast, the angels descend on them(at the time of death): "Fear ye not!", "Nor grieve! but receive the Glad Tidings of the Garden (of Bliss), the which ye were promised!" (41:30)

Further intuitive interpretation of the verse indicates that a true muslim who is firm on La ilaha illah Allahu i:e there is no deities worship of worship except Allah, whose deeds in the open and secret conform with shahada and is steadfast on dhikr, the angels (of lower ranks) not Gabriel or Michael etc, descend on such muslim. You dont see them of-course but feel their presence. It's up to them if they want to speak to you. and you would hear them. If at all they want you to see them, they would appear in human form. NEVER in their true form or else, you dead. This is a sign of righteousness but still does not guarantee paradise. There are some people who are righteous in conduct all their life. But when they old and near death, their behavior become gross and evil. And they die like that. What a sad ending. May Allah protect us from that. It is probably due to overconfidence.

Tafsir(commentary) of this verse says these are 5 most powerful prophets and messangers of Allah. Now if Jesus is God because John(p) said his greater than him, then you may want to consider Muhammad to God since he too has authority to choose who goes to paradise.

John said Jesus was before him meaning Jesus had been before he, John, was born!

The First People to Enter Paradise:

The first of mankind to enter Paradise will be our Prophet Muhammad (saw) and the first nation to enter Paradise will be his ummah. The first member of this ummah to enter will be Abu Bakr as-Siddiq (ra).

After the Word became flesh,He totally humbled Himself and assumed the reputation of a Servant so expecting Him to say I am God is not something you will find.
This is a theory that has no basis whatsoever. It is been around for too long and does not make sense. Father humbled Himself to be servant and son. And ultimately allowed himself to be nailed?. Fantastic!

Because this Gospel does not support Divinity of Jesus it is refuted? smh.

At underlined, which Gospels are they?. I dont know of any 'real Gospels' among the extant ones. And "son" of God, which has been thrown around for yrs does not have weight anymore because there are other Sons of God and even daughters of God. Even "unique sons of God. All of them are in the Bible. So why is Jesus being 'son' of God definitive?.
[/quote Matthew, Mark, Luke and John! Because Jesus was, is and ever will remain the Only Begotten!


[quote]Empire.e:

I leave you with this verse again


"O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs." Sura 004:171

scholar8200:
Were these not the same people Muslims were asked to get clarification from being accused of exceeding limits? How do we reconcile this? And if the Quran was completed between 609-632, it means the Trinity was not a 17th century addition after all but had been there all along!

And have you not exceeded the limits in your religion by declaring Jesus is God, Son of God, that the Father came down and humbled Himself and transformed Himself to servant and

herald9:
In a generation where humans lived up to 1000 years but still experienced menopause at 45-55 years...

What a waste!

Another pointer to how fake the Bible is, it's stories and the characters therein...

Empiree:
I think you are now really getting twisted and getting more confused. Quran is very straightforward. We have no doubt that Jesus(p) is a man, messenger and prophet of Allah FULL STOP. Your Bible, not only does it call him a man but also portrays his human attributes. Jesus was a word (command) "Be! and he was" that precedes from God. How is that difficult to grasp?

Jesus’ Human Body:

It is clear enough from the New Testament that Jesus has a human body. John 1:14 means at least this, and more: “The Word became flesh.” Jesus’ humanity is one of the first tests of orthodoxy (1 John 4:2; 2 John 7). Jesus was born (Luke 2:7). He grew (Luke 2:40, 52). He grew tired (John 4:6) and got thirsty (John 19:28) and hungry (Matthew 4:2). He became physically weak (Matthew 4:11; Luke 23:26). He died (Luke 23:46). And he had a real human body after his resurrection (Luke 24:39; John 20:20, 27). Does this sound like God to you?

Jesus’ Human Emotions

Throughout the Gospels, Jesus clearly displays human emotions. When Jesus heard the centurion’s words of faith, “he marveled” (Matthew 8:10). He says in Matthew 26:38 that his “soul is very sorrowful, even to death.” In John 11:33–35, Jesus is “deeply moved in his spirit and greatly troubled” and even weeps. God does not shed tears. John 12:27 says, “Now is my soul troubled,” and in John 13:21, he is “troubled in his spirit.” The author to the Hebrews writes that “Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears” (Hebrews 5:7) John Calvin memorably summed it up: “Christ has put on our feelings along with our flesh.”


Jesus’ Human Mind:

Jesus also has a human mind. Two key texts make this undeniable:

Luke 2:52: “Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.”
Mark 13:32: “Concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

The second verse, of course, is striking. For Christians who clearly affirm Jesus’ deity, Mark 13:32 seems like trouble. But what looks difficult at first glance proves to be a glorious confirmation of Jesus’ humanity and a very helpful piece in formulating our 'Christology'.

If Jesus is God and God knows everything, how can Jesus not know when his second coming will be?

Expatiate on this:
If the Spirit here in question proceeds from Allah, how come Jesus could say, " I will send Him unto you"? Which should be the exclusive preserve of Allah?
Oh well, maybe we should reverberate similar statments made by other prophets/messangers who made similar divine statement that we can say only God is capable of saying. For instance, prophet Muhammad promised paradise. Read below

The Prophet (PBUH) said, "Whoever guarantees me (the chastity of) what is between his legs ( i.e. his private parts), and what is between his jaws ( i.e., his tongue), I guarantee him Paradise." Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 8.799 Narrated by Sahl bin Sad

Read this as well:


“I guarantee a house in Jannah (Paradise) for one who gives up arguing, even if he is in the right; and I guarantee a house in the middle of Jannah for one who abandons lying even for the sake of fun; and I guarantee a house in the highest part of Jannah for one who has good manners” [Prophet Muhammad SAWS - reported by Imam Abu Dawud]

There are more statements like this made by prophet muhammad and even prophets that came before him. Do these statements suggest his Divinity?.

At this point I believe we can all agree that the Spirit promised by Christ was not a man.
And where is that spirit that would lead all Christians to 'all truth' as visioned by Jesus?. That holy spirit MUST have same universal message for ALL Christians. Do you allhave same message?

So with this clear confusion from your Book, you still think Jesus and 'Father' means same thing?.

This is clear case of two distinct nature.

You have to question Bible writers here. They got you people confused Thats why Christians have different views of who Jesus truly was. We Muslims have no problem with that. This brings back my previous question, did Jesus approve NT?

As per the text in blue, do you mean the Spirit is the Word? Do shed more light!

But in Christianity, if you think this "holy spirit" which lives or dwells in you is what determine central or universal salvation of Christians, then there is no way you all could have universal doctrine. Universal Doctrine has to be plain and clear. So John 14 and 15 could not be talking about personal 'holy spirit' whereby individual would come up with their own version of Jesus.

No one claims the Divinity of Christ based on the Anointing of the Spirit! I never said so! I know very well that there were many that were anointed and strengthened by the Spirit in the OT!
Good to know. Allah still strengthen true believers today but it's very hard to be steadfast.

Quran speaks again of this in Sura


"Verily, those who say:, "Our Lord is Allah", and, further, stand straight and steadfast, the angels descend on them (from time to time): "Fear ye not!", "Nor grieve! but receive the Glad Tidings of the Garden (of Bliss), the which ye were promised!" (41:30)

So so long as a Muslim is firm in Faith with certainty, Allah will strengthen him/her even in 21 century. But the person must be Muslim, righteous and sincere.

Hear John speak:
"...He that comes after me is preferred before me; for He was before me!
John 1:15b
Making it clear that Jesus is, and was before him not on the basis of age since John was born before Jesus but on a greater and infinitely higher basis!
ANd this was supposed to amke Jesus God?. Quran speaks of "special most powerful prophets and messangers" namely:

Muhammad

Jesus

Abraham

Moses

Noah

Sura (33:7)

"And (remember) when We took from the Prophets their covenant, and from you (O Muhammad SAW), and from Nuh (Noah), Ibrahim (Abraham), Musa (Moses), and 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). We took from them a strong covenant"

Tafsir(commentary) of this verse says these are 5 most powerful prophets and messangers of Allah. Now if Jesus is God because John(p) said his greater than him, then you may want to consider Muhammad to God since he too has authority to choose who goes to paradise.

And hear what John's mum had to say:

"And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Luke 1:43
She said this at a time when she was pregnant with John.
Meaning?. What we are looking for is where Jesus recorded his own words saying he is God. Not what second or third party says. Luke was not written by Jesus and you said it yourself that Jesus did not read NT.

Meaning?. Are those christian who dont believe Jesus is God dont claim they have "holy spirit" as well?. They said their doctrine is inspired by holy spirit. So how many holy spirit?. Holy spirit supposed to give one universal message to Christians. Grab my point?

And by calling Jesus God,isnt that innovation introduced by some Christians?. Which of the disciples of Jesus called him God and he was not rebuked by Jesus?. The one place i know of in the Bible where Jesus is called God by 'disciple' was rebuked by Jesus himself. SO whether he is called God or son of God it is all innovation after ascension of Jesus.

I leave you with this verse again


"O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs." Sura 004:171

johnydon22:
[b]Hahahahaha Sarah is not the only woman who failed at producing an offspring and do so later..

It is really outstanding the type of wicked evil barbarism adherents of religions who claim high moral sky scrapper would celebrate and defend..
[/b]

CoolUsername:
Scholar8200, you're defending this story, right? So, let me ask you point-blank, if God asked you to kill a loved one, would you do it?

nasiayam:
the Old Testament for instance prohibits a son from marrying his own mother, sister, or father's former wife. The Old Testament also orders those who commit adultery to be burnt in fire, and those who decide to desert their religion and follow another religion must get stoned to death (Deuteronomy 13:6-9, and Deuteronomy 17:3-5). Also the Old Testament orders Gays and Lesbians to be burnt in fire.

These laws were put by Jesus himself (assuming that Jesus is GOD himself as Christians believe). However, these laws do not exist in the New Testament.

Does this mean that since these laws do not exist in the New Testament, then that would allow the son to marry his own mother?

or the brother to marry his own sister? or a Gay person to become a minister or priest in a church? and if that would be ok, then wouldn't that all be a contradiction to what Jesus wants since he is the one who inspired the Old Testament?

What I am finding very confusing from the Christians is that they base their life all on the New Testament, and the New Testament does not have many laws in it. It hardly covers any hot topic or issue that we deal with in our life. For instance, the Old Testament has its own laws for inheritance, but the New Testament doesn't.

What is one to do on these issues

hahn:
Sarah was a ripe woman. Adam, even though old, was still capable of impregnating his wife. What role did Jehovah play in this scenario that is so special he just had to order a "hit" on Isaac just to prove a point?

Scholar8200:
The emphasis here is that the man in question had already resigned to fate and was not anticipating the coming of a son through Sarah. What makes this a miracle is that 1. GOD promised it and Abraham believed that promise; 2. Apart from that, Sarah was not only very old but as barren as a brick! . (that's why at 75, Abraham had Ishmael through Hagar).
Like I said, there was demonstrable basis for Abraham's faith in God. Considering his reaction when he had to dismiss Ishmael, you can tell that he was a real father who loved his kids. However, the second passage I quoted showed that Abraham knew even if he killed Isaac, it would not be the end; a rather foolhardy effort not different from expecting a child from a barren,dead womb!

johnydon22:
Please sir old age Child bearing is not biologically impossible but rather a rare phenomenon.

it happens and is still happening .. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy_over_age_50

The world’s oldest mother was previously believed to be Malegwale Ramokgopa, a woman born in South Africa in 1839 who allegedly gave birth to twins three days after celebrating her 92nd anniversary on October 3, 1931, which made nation-wide headlines at the time.

until a 101 years old woman broke the record here by ovarian transplant http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/101-year-old-woman-gives-birth-after-successful-ovary-transplant/

Abraham is not the first to regard his child as a gift from God every religious person does even the 101 woman above.

Please tell me is this conviction that your child is a gift from God the justification to kill him/her to prove that conviction?

Wow just wow

lexiconkabir:
I deliberately cancelled that because none of these books claimed to be under the guidance of God, what i meant by God Almighty is watching, is that, sooner or later, we will all account for our deeds, by then all what you do, God will reveal them to you, behold! He has the severest of punishments.