₦airaland Forum

nairalanda1:


Because you do not like what I have said.

Like I said, oga atheist....go and vote for the right kind of government. Not this APC and PDP....that would enable us become an industrial nation, and maybe we can earn the money to boost sports in this country.

I'm a proud theist, but the guy is right.
Stop quoting him because U talk too much nonsense.
Everything is money to U.
How much does st Lucia, Dominica and Jamaica have, yet they have won gold medal in this olympic.

I repeat U talk too much nonsense.
How far with subsidy removal? I thought by now Nigerian education and health sector will be excellent as promised your gullible likes once subsidy is removed.

AntiChristian:
The story is a fabrication. Matthew and Mark says both thieves/ Criminals mocked Jesus. John didn't even saw anything like that but reported Jesus handing over the his mother to John while still on the cross! This is enough to crush all your false thinking below!

Mathew and Mark reported earlier events during the crucifixion when both were mocking Jesus.
One later repented after he noticed events unfold that day and begged for mercy. This account was recorded in Luke.
How is that a contradiction?
Mark and Mathew gospels were sole eyewitness account of Peter and Mathew respectively.
Luke gospel is based on multiple eyewitness account and would be more comprehensive. Details missed by Peter or Mathew would be picked by others.

AntiChristian:
I will always bug you with other methods available in your Bible since you have only chosen only one from them!
Blood Atonement is just one of the ways of Biblical atonement whether you agree or not!
Leviticus 17:11: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life."

Ok now that you have admitted that God demanded blood for atonement in the bible and same God in the Qur'an said U dont need blood for forgiveness of sin...
Can U tell us when Allah changed his mind and and why.
When did Allah stop demanding for blood as atonement and why did he change his mind.

Why did Allah decide to remove blood as one of the ways to forgive sins. What made him change his mind and why.

Note: my question is based on the claim made by Muslims that Allah is same as Elohim in the bible.
Thank U for your honest answer.

AntiChristian:
We keep discussing a false story! Alright, Let me play along! A thief/Criminal who has lost all hope is about to die had faith in Jesus, a man he saw bleeding right in front of him. Did he believe he was God?

Mr Man stop deflecting. No God died on the cross, God cannot die. It's impossible for God to die.
No Christian ever said God died on the cross.

AntiChristian:
No, God no dey die! And you can't crucify God! And if i were to interpret that story, i will say Jesus promised him intercession since he said before in John 5:30, that by himself he can do nothing!

Stop putting words into Jesus mouth. It's outright dishonesty and blasphemy.
Jesus promised him paradise not intercession. Jesus said 'truly I tell you, today U will be with me in
paradise'.
Intercession is only in your head.

AntiChristian:
Jesus was a Prophet and messenger of God! The Criminal has been punished for his sins. And he has repented on the cross. Moreso he believe in the messenger of God!

So tell me what other messenger of God apart from Jesus promised paradise to people.
Just tell me one messenger of God when he was on earth who assured his followers of definite entry into paradise.
because I dont understand this your argument that messengers of God can dash people paradise. The thing be like blasphemy to me.
Na dem get paradise wey dem do dey dash people entry?

AntiChristian:
However unlike Christians the criminal acknowledged Jesus' innocence and his own guilt. He never believed Jesus was sent to die like you do!

The criminal doesn't need to know Jesus died for him b4 seeking repentance. He never had the opportunity of hearing the gospel b4 he died so wouldn't know fully the ministry and mission of Jesus on earth.
However, the criminal acknowledged Jesus wasn't a mere man and had a kingdom. That was why he asked Jesus to remember him when Jesus entered his kingdom.

Note the criminal said Jesus has a kingdom in afterlife. Prophets don't have their own kingdom, they belong to the kingdom of God. At least I know Muhammed no get him own kingdom.
But the criminal asked to be admitted into the kingdom of Jesus because he knew Jesus had his own kingdom. Only divine being has kingdom in afterlife.
That proves the criminal knew Jesus wasn't a mere prophet but a divine being. That's why he could ask Jesus to lead him into his kingdom.
AntiChristian the criminal is wiser than you. He knew Jesus has a kingdom, he has the same belief as Christians.

AntiChristian:
And finally, Jesus did not go to paradise that same day! He went to hell!

Jesus said Father my spirit I commit into u.
Where is the Father?

AntiChristian:
Abeg meshionu gi jáwé!
I said they lied you are saying they focused on different aspects!

Matthew said the two criminals abused Jesus!

Mark said a similar thing!

Luke shared them into two one abusing Jesus.

John didn't even get the story at all. He only reported Jesus handing over Mary to him.

That story is a lie!

Check the timeline the two thieves mocked Jesus and when one sought repentance. They are 3 hrs apart.

Now to your post.
AntiChristian my problem with U is U run away when U get stuck and can't answer a question.
That's why I respect AbuTwin, at least that one will always respond and conclude even if his response contradicts his belief or argument.

I asked U why did God tell Israelites and ancient non Israelites to atone for sins with blood if all that's needed for forgiveness of sin is by asking?

Pls don't bug me with other ways God forgive sin, I need to know why God demanded blood for atonement of sin.

Now to the thief on the cross.
2 simple question will destroy your argument but I know U won't answer.

1. What work did that thief perform to enter paradise. U Muslims claim work and faith is needed to enter paradise. That thief died on that cross having faith but no work.
Why did Jesus promised him paradise that same day when there's no evidence of work done.

2. Can a mere man guarantee paradise to his fellow man. How can Jesus ' a mere man according to Muslims' give assurance of paradise to another mere man.
Who allows people into paradise, who forgives sin and gives salvation for people to enter paradise.

If God is the one that brings people into paradise, then why is Jesus acting as God and promising paradise. Who gave him such authority?

k4kenny:
Prove it.

Prove what? That Muslims don't attack innocent kids with knife.
This protest is about people have had enough of Muslims intolerant ideology.

k4kenny:
Since the biased zionist trash you are neglected to report the full news, let me just drop it right here.

The culprit of the knife attack was NOT A MUSLIM. I can see your brainwashed minions are already drooling in the mouth with their raging islamophobia.

A quick Google/Youtube search is sufficient to give you people brain, but mba, believe without proof is your mantra.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJgHAaARy5k?si=0lR6wWQaWSPxbedJ

He must be a Muslim convert.

Mille:
This one that killed innocent children?

Also what do you have to say about the anonymous extremists and e-religious warriors on nairaland and twitter. Bunch of cowards. That's why you can't find them on Facebook or see them in real life.

What have U guys done to David wood or that Turkish ex Muslim, both of them bash Muhammed constantly on YouTube.
Abeg rest, Christianity is not a breeding ground for terrorism. Simple as that.
When that Christian guy entered mosque in new Zealand and started killing Muslims, the whole Christian community made it clear he was on his own.

But Muslims will come here giving 1001 excuse why terrorist acts are justified-'attack those who attack u'

U people should just know people's patience have expiry date and no sect has monopoly of violence.
U can't continue to inflict pain on others unjustifiably and expect there will be no reprisal.

The biggest mistake Islam will make is to assume west is a civilised society.

AntiChristian:
I asked for the names of the ancient rabbinical Jews who did the compilations! Names please?



The truth is that God forgave sins in many other ways other than sacrificial offerings!

Here are some examples of forgiveness of sins practices in the Old Testament with corresponding verses from the Bible:
1.Sacrificial Offerings:
Leviticus 4:27-31 (NIV): "If any member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord’s commands, when they realize their guilt and the sin they have committed becomes known, they must bring as their offering for the sin they committed a female goat without defect. They are to lay their hand on its head and slaughter it for a sin offering at the place where the burnt offering is slaughtered."

2. Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur):
Leviticus 16:29-30 (NIV): "This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month you must deny yourselves and not do any work—whether native-born or a foreigner residing among you— because on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the Lord, you will be clean from all your sins."

3. Confession and Repentance:
Psalm 32:5 (NIV): "Then I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, 'I will confess my transgressions to the Lord.' And you forgave the guilt of my sin."

4. Prayer and Intercession:
1 Kings 8:30 (NIV): "Hear the supplication of your servant and of your people Israel when they pray toward this place. Hear from heaven, your dwelling place, and when you hear, forgive."

5. Restitution:
Numbers 5:6-7 (NIV): "Say to the Israelites: 'Any man or woman who wrongs another in any way and so is unfaithful to the Lord is guilty and must confess the sin they have committed. They must make full restitution for the wrong they have done, add a fifth of the value to it and give it all to the person they have wronged.'"

These examples from the Bible illustrate the various ways in which the Israelites sought forgiveness of sins through sacrificial offerings, the Day of Atonement, confession and repentance, prayer and intercession, as well as making restitution for wrongdoing.

I still don't understand why you are fixated only on sacrificial offerings when other methods existed! Probably just to promote your vicarious atonement in Jesus falsehood!

Now that I've destroyed your argument, allow me to expose your ignorance.

U mentioned day of atonement as one of the ways God forgive sin without shedding of blood.
What a joke and a laff!!!!
Day of atonement itself is the day of blood. It's the day the sins of Israelites over the past one year is atoned for with blood!!!
Read Leviticus 23
The high priest atoned for his own sin with the blood of a bull and then proceed to atone for the sin of Israelites with 2 two goats, one to be sacrificed “because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been” !!!


Your argument on repentance and forgiveness just depicts your poor understanding of salvation in the bible.
Repentance precede any forgiveness of sin. There can be no forgiveness of sin without repentance which sometimes include restitution.
You are not expected to take any offering to the priest for atonement is sin without an acceptable genuine repentance otherwise your sacrifice is a waste.

David depicts it clearly in psalm 51.

You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it;
you do not take pleasure in burnt offering[/b]s.
17 My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart
you, God, will not despise.

18 May it please you to prosper Zion,
to build up the walls of Jerusalem.
19[b] Then you will delight in the sacrifices of the righteous,
in burnt offerings offered whole;
then bulls will be offered on your altar.



As U can see from the psalm, David made it clear that God reject the sacrifice of the ungodly and wicked.
Reference Cain and Abel. Cain's heart was evil this God rejected his sacrifice.

A genuine repentance must be fulfilled prior to God delighting in your sacrifice.
Otherwise your the sacrificial atonement for sin is useless.

Go and read Leviticus 1-6 to fully understand the dynamic relationship btw repentance, restitution and blood sacrificial offering.

AntiChristian:
I asked for the names of the ancient rabbinical Jews who did the compilations! Names please?



The truth is that God forgave sins in many other ways other than sacrificial offerings!

Here are some examples of forgiveness of sins practices in the Old Testament with corresponding verses from the Bible:
1.Sacrificial Offerings:
Leviticus 4:27-31 (NIV): "If any member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord’s commands, when they realize their guilt and the sin they have committed becomes known, they must bring as their offering for the sin they committed a female goat without defect. They are to lay their hand on its head and slaughter it for a sin offering at the place where the burnt offering is slaughtered."

2. Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur):
Leviticus 16:29-30 (NIV): "This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month you must deny yourselves and not do any work—whether native-born or a foreigner residing among you— because on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the Lord, you will be clean from all your sins."

3. Confession and Repentance:
Psalm 32:5 (NIV): "Then I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, 'I will confess my transgressions to the Lord.' And you forgave the guilt of my sin."

4. Prayer and Intercession:
1 Kings 8:30 (NIV): "Hear the supplication of your servant and of your people Israel when they pray toward this place. Hear from heaven, your dwelling place, and when you hear, forgive."

5. Restitution:
Numbers 5:6-7 (NIV): "Say to the Israelites: 'Any man or woman who wrongs another in any way and so is unfaithful to the Lord is guilty and must confess the sin they have committed. They must make full restitution for the wrong they have done, add a fifth of the value to it and give it all to the person they have wronged.'"

These examples from the Bible illustrate the various ways in which the Israelites sought forgiveness of sins through sacrificial offerings, the Day of Atonement, confession and repentance, prayer and intercession, as well as making restitution for wrongdoing.

I still don't understand why you are fixated only on sacrificial offerings when other methods existed! Probably just to promote your vicarious atonement in Jesus falsehood!

This thoughtless argument U people bring anytime they ask U this question is ridiculous.
What U guys don't realise is u indirectly admitting that BLOOD SACRIFICE IS ONE OF THE WAYS GOD FORGIVES SIN.
U haven't negated forgiveness of sin via blood sacrifice but only listed other ways U think God forgives sin.

And my question remains valid. If God can forgive sin just by asking, why did he demand animal blood sacrifice from the Israelites and prophets of old testament.

sonmvayina:
Yes, because he sacrificed his own life for the child, it is what any father would do....
Not God, God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent....
He does not die and does not need to...
The story says Jesus was tried and executed. He died because he is a human being...
God only asked us for a sincere repentance and he would forgive...that is what a loving father would do...not send somebody to die ( whatever that means) after giving an instruction "thou shall not kill"

Does not make sense my brother.

We talking about Jesus when he was here on earth!!!
Nobody is making reference to God dying for anybody's sin.
What Jesus did was self sacrifice....he died that we may live.
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
John 15.13

Above is definition of what Jesus did; and this is not human sacrifice. Human sacrifice is only in your head.

The issue of repentance by blood has been thrashed.
If God can forgive just by asking, why did he tell Israelites to sacrifice animals and use their blood to atone for sins.

Don't come here with that thoughtless defence of there other ways God forgive sin because what U indirectly saying is BLOOD SACRIFICE IS ONE OF THE WAYS GOD FORGIVES SIN.

Therefore U admitting that God forgive sin through blood sacrifice. And that's exactly what I'm asking U.

Why did God Israelites to atone for sin with animal blood sacrifice?

sonmvayina:
For who
For what?

Which human is not going to die?
What did ken saro wiwa do?

Be deluding yourself..

If a father rescue his child who is drowning but lost his own life while saving his child...
Will U call that human sacrifice or self sacrifice

AntiChristian:
I asked for the names of the ancient rabbinical Jews who did the compilations! Names please?

Names of the men of great assembly who compiled the tanakh
Ezra
Zerubabbel
Simeon hatzadik
Nehemiah
Zechariah
Malachi,
Daniel,
Mishael and Azaryah
Mordechai
Obadiah
Yeshua the high priest son of Azaniah

I listed the prominent ones U will know if U familiar with the exilic and post exilic scrptures. The list has 120 prophets, scribes, Levites and priests.

Read Nehemiah 9,10 and 11 for the comprehensive list.

sonmvayina:
No sane jew ever believed there was Jesus in that passage... believe what you want.....

So Jews who wrote the Targum are not sane??

Lionessza6:
The organisers only wanted a "controversial" candidate to get more viewers for their dying show and it was brilliant. They knew SA would never sitback and watch some Nigerian migrant be the face of a heritage she not part of. Passports don't wash away bloodlines. Let her go and be Misss UK .

Calm down. It's the new global order.
Besides she's only winning it for this year, so the bragging right has expiry date.
Next year they can either return it to the Mzanzi or look for South Africa Latina to give.

EreluRoz:
We are identified by our paternal root and as such she's Nigerian. Even Nigerians will not allow such

Rest, if she has a south African passport, she's a
South African and has every right to contest for Miss South Africa.

EreluRoz:
We are identified by our paternal root and as such she's Nigerian. Even Nigerians will not allow such

Rest, if she has a south African passport, she's a
Southie

AntiChristian:
Mention the names of the ancient rabbinical Jews who did the compilations?

My friend that ran away, I didn't know it was U.
I thought it was that confused black Jew.

This is your answer...
The Tanakh was compiled by the men of the Great Assembly (Anshei K'nesset HaGedolah), a task completed in 450 BCE, and it has remained unchanged ever since.

Now answer my question.

Why did God tell the Israelites to use animal blood as atonement for sin but told Muhammed something different.

If God can forgive sin without shedding of blood, why did he tell the Israelites to shed animal blood for forgiveness of sin.

sonmvayina:
No sane jew ever believed there was Jesus in that passage... believe what you want...
God hates human sacrifice...

There's no human sacrifice anywhere except in your head
What Jesus did is called self sacrifice.

AntiChristian:
Mention the names of the ancient rabbinical Jews who did the compilations?

What has that got to do with my question.
Who should I believe?
U or ancient rabbinical Jews in BC era?

sonmvayina:
You are just being deceived.

God promised a Messiah.
He is not coming to die...if he died, he can't be a Messiah.
God already gave a solution to the problem of sin. That alone will tell you, he is not coming to die for sin, so what is he coming to do...
This thread will enlighten you.

https://www.nairaland.com/6863821/what-purpose-messiah

Answer this question
Who should I believe, U or ancient rabbinical Jews who compiled the tanakh

sonmvayina:
Believe what you like....

Believe what I like or it should be are the Jewish scholars right or wrong.

sonmvayina:
Believe what you like
Any body with half a brain will know there is no Jesus there....no gospel writer quoted it...
Continue deluding yourself.
I have pointed you to the write direction it is up to you to follow..

Paul referenced it.
I didn't mention Jesus, use your brain
I said Jewish scholars in BC era believed Hosea 6.1-2 is about a man who died and resurrected on the 3rd day.
That's what I want to give U evidence for but U shit scared of the truth.

sonmvayina:
That's Hosea 6 you presented, why not continue reading to verse 6. Maybe you will learn..
Isaiah 53 is about a suffering servant.(Israel) Who where suffering because of the sins of other Jewish people. The servant is the people among Gods people who where suffering with the others Jewish people who God was punishing for their sins..this time they where in exile in Babylon..
God commanded Nebuchadnezzar to take all of them to exile and told them that their only chance of survival was following the Babylonians. But the ones that where obeying God's commandments and living a righteous life and the sinful ones was taken off to exile. In this passage Isaiah was assuring the righteous people(servant) that God has seen their suffering and assure them that their salvation was near...shikenah

There is no Jebus, death or resurrection or second coming...

oga leave story, u are not a jewish scholar.
if u not scared, allow me to show u what the jewish rabbi in the BC era thought about hosea 6:1-2.

sonmvayina:
We have over flogged this matter...
.

U didn't explain the discrepancy. U ignored it then came back and said tanakh interpretation has never changed.
U can't be making false claims and expect me to ignore U.

If U want to claim the tanakh interpretation has never changed then explain whe discrepancy in the Isaiah 53 exegesis btw ancient and modern day rabbi.

sonmvayina:
lol

The interpretation of the Tanakh has NEVER changed.
They have passed it on from generation to generation.
Judaism and Christianity are two different religions... Christianity is not derived from the Tanakh. It developed in Egypt as the worship of serapis. No Jesus, all these info where added post Nicea..

If interpretation of the tanakh has never changed, then explain why ancient jewish rabbi believed Isaiah 53 is about a messiah that will die for the sins but modern jews says it's about Israel.
how come we have two different interpretation for same verse in same religion.

sonmvayina:
lol

The interpretation of the Tanakh has NEVER changed.
They have passed it on from generation to generation.
Judaism and Christianity are two different religions... Christianity is not derived from the Tanakh. It developed in Egypt as the worship of serapis. No Jesus, all these info where added post Nicea..

Then allow me to show u what ancient jewish rabbi who compiled the tanakh believed about hosea 6.1-2.
this were jews who lived b4 Jesus was even born.
If u not scared and u beleive the interpretation of tanakh has never changes, then allow me to show u interpretation of the ancient jewish rabbi

sonmvayina:
Hahaahahhaa
Which part of your ass are you pulling all these bull shit from?

You read it yourself...in context.

Are U now afraid of what ancient rabbinical believe about their scriptures.
Are U scared it will destroy your erroneous beliefs?
Modern day Jews have been lying to U.
Wake up.

sonmvayina:
Is it not self explanatory ?
Like I said before..
God creates peace and evil
He creates both light and darkness
He smites and he saves
Hosea is encouraging them to return to the Lord, two days he will revive them and on the 3rd day they will become a people again and live in his presence...
They will be his people and he will be their God..

So Hosea is saying after God has punished them, he would still save them. The two day means that God anger is not for ever, but his mercy endures forever...

What if I show U that ancient rabbinical Jews b4 Christ believed the verse was about someone who died and resurrected on the 3rd day.

They explained the verse as a Man who died and God raised him up on the 3rd day.
They just weren't sure of the identity of the man.

dtruth50:
Then what has Islam and Muslims got to do with all these?

Nothing....
But I saw your message calling Christians cowards and stuff like that bocs they protest on social media.


At least, russian foreign minister condemned it. That's not a faceless identity.

People can protest anyhow they feel like and can make reference to double standard in religious approach.

It's far better than carrying knife and looking for Olympic committee members to stab to death.

That's my point.
U came here and started instigating people to be violent in their protest like Muslims.
That's why I said U should calm down.

sonmvayina:
Hosea 6:1&2

1 Come and let us return to the Lord, for He has torn and He shall heal us; He smites, and He will bind us up.
2 He will revive us from the two days, on the third day He will set us up, and we will live before Him.


What should I see?

Bye bye.
Believe whatever you like...

Don't run away. Explain the verse.
What do U think. I will like to know your opinion.

sonmvayina:
The Messiah is not coming to die for sins..

God has already given them a solution to the problem of sin. At it does not involve human sacrifice. Human sacrifice belongs to the realm of Lucifer.

The Messiah is an anointed king, just like David and Solomon. In short the Messiah will come from the line of David through Solomon. So it means whoever the Messiah is, he must have a father and mother....The Jews don't have demi gods as part of their religion. That is a Greek/Roman mythology...

The suffering servant is Israel.

Travel to the land of beyond, then Go and argue with ancient jewish rabbi who died holding on to that belief.
Even the link u brought here admitted the verse could be about a messiah dying for the sin of the world.
I think we done here, the truth cannot be changed. u free to embrace it or reject it.

Now as regards Christ dying and resurrecting in 3 days- read hosea 6.1-2, let me open your eyes to another truth.

dtruth50:
Our religion is not for joke. It is valuable and we are not cow*rds

guy calm.
killing a life over a Lord's supper picture that didnt originate from christ himself makes no sense to me.
Leornado da vinci painted the picture and has always been controversial anyway.

That doesnt stop people from expressing their displeasure if they feel what the olympic organisers did offend their beliefs.
Same reason I support the ongoing worldwide protest support for palestinian freedom. This is far better and more moral than driving a plane into a skyscraper or bombing up Christians or engaging in other terrorist acts to pass a message.
killing a life over a cause defeats the purpose of religion itself.
Muslims should know nobody has a monopoly of violence- Christians were equally violently intolerant in the past but eventually presented a more docile form of their religion in the last 100 yrs.
There are multiple ways of resolving disputes or perceived violence other than shedding unnecessary blood.

sonmvayina:
So where does it says the servant will die and ressurect after 3 days. If it is not there it is not about jesus my friend.
Like I said 8 times prior to chapter 53, Isaiah told you who the servant is...nobody died, the servant days will be prolonged, he will see his offspring. That does not look like jesus now, does it?


Why are you not seeing it..

Guy rest, U don't know more than Jewish rabbi who said the same thing for over a thousand years.
The passage is about the Messiah who's coming to die for the sin of the world.