₦airaland Forum

[quote author=i_laugh link=topic=223236.msg3386022#msg3386022 date=1232971202]You have not yet said or given any tangible reason to adduce or deduce that it is wrong for the President to go for a two weeks leave, you need to give a very meaningful reason to justify why this is wrong, and to justify why this provision whould be taken from the Nigerian Constitution - if you dont have cogent reasons apart from the one give by someone called B. O. S. S. - which is - whi is he going on holiday in the midst of economic crisis - if you dont have better reasons, then simply shut up.[/quote]@i_laugh let me just assume you cannot understand why people might be furious at this announcement and break it down for you.
What has Yar Adua done or achieved since he got into power about 20 months ago?
That right there is the issue and i might as well throw in the "how many sick leaves has he had?" question.
Now let us draw a parrallel in real life and for a sec forget the fact that we are talking of the president of a whole nation, say you work in a company and you continue to show such unproductivity when there are a mountain of things to address, and you keep taking sick leave. What do you think the outcome of such will be? Do you think you would still have a job to go back to at the end of the day and if so do you think you won't be expected to go out of your way to make up for your absense?

Now let us come back to reality. How many issues need to be addressed on the federal scale? How many issues just require the instigation of new policies? How many of the problems met on the first day of office by Mr President have been addressed and how many schemes or roadmaps with regards to the much vaunted "7 point agenda" have been implemented or even taught of or announced? Again, this is the president of a whole country and we are happy with childs play? Acceptance of such lacklustre performance with anything in the way of repremandation seems to be nothing short of accepting that there will be no progress for the next 2 years and being content with that.

Wayoguy In Naija (Part 3): Foreign Beggars Exploiting Children    
Written by 'Wayo Guy'    
Wednesday, 21 January 2009
Have you seen the pictures?

Revolutionary, but child-abusing, female beggars from Niger are slowly invading major cities in southern Nigeria. The key words here are Revolutionary and Child-Abuse. More about those words shortly.


Niger is the country directly north of Nigeria. For many years now, professional beggars from there have moved steadily south. They are here in Port Harcourt, Enugu, Onitsha, Owerre, Aba and other major cities. They are also in many western Nigerian cities. They are not interested in working.


I say they are revolutionary because, quietly but persistently, they have redefined the image of typical street beggars in southern Nigeria. Before their arrival, the unwritten Beggars Manual here required that a street beggar must be either (a) physically handicapped with a visible deformity of leg or arm or (b) blind or (c) mentally sick to the extent that they fit what we, in local parlance, generally refer to as mad people.


In all my years growing up in southeastern Nigeria, it was extremely rare, in fact nearly impossible, to see a street beggar who did not display one of these impediments – physical handicap, blindness, or mental illness. If any man or woman ever dreamed of street begging as a vocation but did not fit into any of these categories, I am certain that he or she quickly dispensed of the thought and found some gainful employment or engaged in private industry. Why? If people ever saw a healthy person on the street, begging, they would give him nothing but instead deride and insult him until he left the street. Yes, pride and shame ensured that in southeastern Nigeria, healthy people had no business on the street, begging.


But now here comes the street beggar from Niger: no physical handicap, no mental illness, not even a pretense of madness. Their formula is revolutionary in its simplicity – you only need to be a foreign woman and have a young child, preferably an infant, with you, and dangle an empty cup or plate in front of passersby or motorists, pleading for money.


Stand at a distance and watch how this formula works like magic. People are now glad to give to healthy foreigners holding babies and begging but would give nothing to healthy local people begging. It works so well that these Niger beggars boldly offer to give you change if your excuse for not giving them something is because you have only large currency notes. Yes, these beggars give change. They boldly open their bags, full of money, and retrieve the exact change for you. Looking at street begging as a business, I doubt that any student or professor of business administration in Nigeria can think of a better formula for successful begging in southern Nigeria.


But these Niger women street beggars, in spite of their revolutionary formula, are essentially abusing children. Watch those children. Why are they not in school? They look sullen, distant, tired; all day the scorching sun bakes their young brains while the adult women drag them along from passerby to motorist. The very young, the infants, just days or weeks old, are clutched in the women’s arms, under the blazing sun, all day.


Where are the fathers of these children? Why are these fathers never on the street begging? Are they in Niger or lurking around the street corners in Nigeria near the women? Or are these children fathered by Nigerian men? Worse, is it true, as I heard, that some of these children do not really belong to the women but are instead rented from their real parents strictly to use them for begging? Where is the outrage of Nigerians and the international community when infants and young children are so brazenly being abused?


Below are some of the pictures that I managed to take.


https://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm290/VUchendu/photo_0017-3.jpg

These children, and many others whose pictures I will not post, told me, in plain English, that they did not attend schools. The adults pretended not to speak English at all. Some spoke clear Hausa and I pretended that I did not understand them too.

https://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm290/VUchendu/photo_0011-3.jpg
https://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm290/VUchendu/photo_0020-4.jpg


This beautiful child should be in school. There is no better help for beggars than to force them to put their children in school. Otherwise the circle of poverty and begging will never end.

https://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm290/VUchendu/photo_0012-3.jpg
https://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm290/VUchendu/photo_0024-3.jpg

Here was one lady digging into her money bag to give me change. She had agreed to let me take her picture if I gave her money. I did. Then guess what she did after taking the money? See the next picture. I could hear her laughing and talking to her partners in a strange language as I walked away. I think they were saying "there goes the mugu"

https://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm290/VUchendu/photo_0013-3.jpg
https://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm290/VUchendu/photo_0016-3.jpg

This is the proper begging expression.

https://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm290/VUchendu/photo_0008-2.jpg


This particular group were busy counting my change from their heavy bag of money as I took this picture. Once you step away from them, you can see them in clusters exchanging pleasant banters with a happier countenance different from the one presented to the passerby in order to separate him from his money.

https://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm290/VUchendu/photo_0010-2.jpg

stillwater:
Yes religion is a factor here but the Yorubas did not become muslims overnight. We should put it into consideration that the economy is not helping matters either.

Sorry, i am not even looking at it from a "yoruba angle", rather just the culture of begging. Allow me to post an article, its an interesting read with images (and no i am not trying to become the new Nigeria1 : ) )

stillwater:
The rise of beggars is as a result of poverty in Nigeria.

You really believe that? It might actually shock you to know that begging is seen by some as a business whereby money is made. I guess you haven't read of beggars who give change. A part of the problem is that begging has become a "culture" and just like the culture of corruption there has been no serious attempt to discourage it either by policies or law enforcement etc. Please, don't think it is all poverty because it really isn't all poverty. Part of the reasons why beggars are so prevalent is part of the reason why people get bench and open stalls on an express road and call it market. No order. Funny enough i read an interesting article on this issue last week.

[quote author=Godman_n link=topic=223774.msg3384171#msg3384171 date=1232921928]I agree completely with what you have said. I just think that the tribal sentiments is very strong in majority of Nigerians. Since democracy is the will of the majority, the best is to find a way of negotiating ones interest in through the majority of the people.

Whenever we get used to good governments, the tribal sentiments will die down[/quote]Funny enough i do believe such an outlook in the way things are run in Nigeria is down to the older generation. The issue of 'which ethnic group is running what' instead of 'what is the person running so and so doing' is something that i have seen in the older generation that perhaps were more exposed to such an outlook with the war and the coups and all of that. I don't have statistics to throw at you but am saying so based on experiences and the fact that hardly if any of my friends have such an outward view or disposition of such whereby it becomes the driving force behind everything. Again i don't think the desire for development is limited to only a few ethnic groups. The issue of "where is he/she from" and using such as a criteria for choosing leaders will most likely be prevalent if that is what is made the main issue during elections as opposed to what is going to be done to bring development and change. I bring this up because i think it is an area that can be focused on in terms of action in the way of re-orientating the citizenship in the various way that such can be done (media, programes, public speaking, etc).

@Godman_n last time i checked this whole issue of power sharing among the three "regions" is not in the constitution and is symbolic of one of the reasons why progress seems unnattainable. In Nigeria the arrogance between the three major ethnic group whereby power sharing is seen as between such groups has always been extremely distasteful and arrogant to say the least. Basing the democracy of the country on a lottery selection limited to one region as a means of "pacifying" the country is something that the PDP have made their agenda. The country is bigger than the PDP and anyone. That is why I think it quite disheartening that from the get go you are choosing to place such a weak block in the foundation of the very essence of the country's democracy though i understand where you're coming from. Last elections people from all sides contested for the presidency, or is Pat Utomi a Northerner? It should be open to all to contest and it would be up to the candidates to try and prove to the people why they should be voted for. You could claim i am being naive but i really don;t think the desire for development is limited to any ethnic group.

The reason why such a big deal has been made of such in the past is simply because of the shallowness that continues to characterise the Nigerian democracy. Campaigning never goes beyond each candidate pointing out where the other isn't from and hence not meeting the non existent and non constitutional "requirement". Campaigning rarely goes beyond such folly to actually enter into debates on the issues, strategy to developments and idealogies that a candidate may have and hence never allows the people see and focus on the issues that should matter. Istead of addmitting defeat and making such a compromise that will further drive the cyclye of not getting the best man for the job in order to fill some quota or "pacify" a region, why don't we just see it as meaning there is more work to be done on the ground; more work to be done in terms of reaching out to people and trying to make the issues of next elections be development and discussion on the issues? Good foundations are important and the more we continue to go for second best in order to "pacify", the more we continue to fal in our bid to truelly reach our potential as a nation. We can't shout "one nigeria" and continue along the road whereby some groups remain second class citizens in their own country.

Let each man stand on his own credibility and each bottle on its own top. The next elections should be brought to the nation's attention and psyche now.

@Goodman_n i assume you know a lot about this man for you to take such a stance, so i am quite interested to know what it is about him that makes you think he would be a good president. I have done basic research and have gathered that the person in question is a former military Govenor of Kaduna state and a 'public commentator'. He and his party where staunch speakers against OBJ's third term agenda and were even blocked out of a rally that was prebooked by them in Abuja to tell the world press about OBJ's ambition. All of this is just plain information that is missing what could be seen as greater insight into the person in question. From reading some of his commentaries i like the way he has objectively analysed issues in the past in seeming sincerity and not just jumping on band wagons, however what was achieved in Kaduna when he was it's leader? All of this though is meaningless without a desire by the person we speak of to actually run for presidency.

This is just one name out of many possible alternatives. I think it would be in the best interest of Nigeria if the issue of the next elections are discussed now. I say this because it will give more ample time for candidates who are interested to start making themselves known so that we can begin to see other alternatives as opposed to having to select from a small pool of people. The additional time such an early start will buy will mean candidates have more time to speak on the issues and try convince the people as to why their votes are deserved and will also mean more time to sensitise the people to the importance of such an issue and why it is vital to the nation's progress. Additional time will also mean more time for people to get behind candidates of their preference; more time for a solid push on electoral reforms to be addressed and could also serve as a defining condemnation of this current administration's performance as well as show that the people mean business. How will such early campainging and discussion of next elections be instigated? Use of the media, word of mouth, contacts, articles, etc.

The time to act isn't three months to election when the results have already been pre determined and we are told printers in South Africa broke down or whatever other silly reason is needed to once again steal the mandate of the people. This shouldn't just be applied to the presidency, it should be applied to govenors also.

Though i am quite irritated to say the least i am finding it difficult to muster anything in the way of sympathy for the nation. No one complained and talked or most importantly acted when the bed was being laid, it was all apparently to "stabilise" the country and for the "interest" of the nation, so i guess its a bit childish to now come and start shouting and huffing and puffing that the bed was not well laid when it was obvious from the start. What a paradox, this desire for things that nations out of hard work and sacrifice enjoy without any desire to exercice the principles that brought about such development in nationhood and growth of such nations. Instead of coming online to exhibit the though understandable but now predictable "outrage" or "dissatisfaction" won't such energy be better extended in beginning to get involved to do all we can to make sure the next elections are different and also to make sure that something in the way of progress is at least salvaged from this trainwreck that is on a national scale? Or is there contentment in complaining and watching the ushering in of a Yar Adua second term so that we can once again come online to self indulgently express our all important "dissatisfaction" or "outrage" for the situation that was left to happen?

[quote author=B.O.S.S. link=topic=222881.msg3377369#msg3377369 date=1232714603]I just think Godman_n is trying to be politically correct. To me though he made some sense only that it'll mean more in the 1st world countries (joining the PC brigade).


@ blackspade
How do you normally get these pictures before anyone else. You got the Port Harcourt ones first, followed by the Kaduna and now you got the Lagos bit. How do you normally get these infos. Your connections are tight o.

I love those development sha. Gawd, where's Fashola been hiding all these years while we had Marwa and Tinubu (I'm not too sure about those dudes).[/quote]LOL, 90% of the stuff he posted on is from the Nigerian section of a global forum. Forum is OK, although it could use more help from people actually in Nigeria in terms of pictures of progress, etc. I've know about the 60 storey hilton hotel planed for port harcourt since last year but did not know how he came up with the model (if that is actually the real model ). Probably had to kill someone

[quote author=Godman_n link=topic=222881.msg3377212#msg3377212 date=1232712814]Depending on what you choose to; or know the capacity to understand as being meaningfull. Isn't there the posibility that you lack the capacity to understand where I am going. Based on you numerous prejudices and bias.

I repeat until you come out of your shell, you will never see world. May God give us the grace to see beyound our noses.[/quote]I understand the points you are trying to raise in terms of sticking with what we know will get built instead of living off proposals, etc. However, i have known about the developments that @blackspade has been posting on the politics forum (perhaps the wrong place to post it?) for quite a while now, it is in the public domain and he didn't just draw all that he pasted himself .

? ? ? ? ? ?
Moderator please moderate

B118:
@ boss thanks for that post

"Yes they do. But they’ve not been oppressed by their leaders and their leaders don’t run away from problems. Most of their leaders that mess up actually get punished. Unlike in Nigeria. Loot and go free."

stop trying to compare Nigeria or Africa with the western world we face a very different situation we have a different story what works for that world doesnt always work for this world.

Hope you really don't take offence at this but i think you might need to go read up on your history a bit to see if it was always that way. There was opression in france, opression of the poor by the welathy and the 'ordinary' people revolted and changed their history.

Take a city like New York for example, the ammount of corruption that was so intrinsic in the running of New York in its early days might shock you. I understand where you are coming from when you use the term 'different situation' but i really don't buy it if used as a means of excusing the situation in Nigeria. It has throughout history been a case of people getting involved and changing their own history even though the situations might be different.

earTHMama:
Obasanjo tried but hausa will not let him.

How did hausa stop Obasanjo from ensuring that the a stable, objective and grounded electoral body was formed to handle election affairs? The elections didn't just creep up, how could it possibly have happened asa surprise? It was known by all when it will happen just like we know that hopefully there will be an election in 2011. So with all the ample timing what was the excuse for the disgrace that were the elections? So terribly organised that printing of the ballots had to be apparently "outsourced" to South Africa or so we are led to believe and i have not even gone into the massive recording of electoral malpractice which was in some areas police and army assisted. I am guessing someone was also in control of Obasanjo's mouth when he informed the populace that the elections were a do or die affair, right? How on earth can the president of a "democratic" country make such a statement which was so irresponsible and from then on served to bring into question wether there was actually any intent to allow the will of the people to rule? You sure you aren't letting him off to easily? Are we also going to continue to let Yar Adua ignore the electoral reforms he was talking off prior to his selection and then ait to be caught "surprised" again by another election we know of 2 years in advance?

earTHMama:

Obasanjo dances in joy at airport
Shola Adekola, Lagos
Wednesday, January 21, 2009
AS President Obama took his oath of office on Tuesday in Washington DC, former president, Chief Olusegun Obasanjo, entertained journalists and workers at the presidential lounge of the Murtala Muhammed Airport, Lagos, with dance to show his happiness for the inauguration of the first black American president.






The development is coming even as the former Cross River State governor, Mr. Donald Duke, said the inauguration of the US president provided opportunity for Nigeria to be ashamed of itself for failing to recognise its potential at home.

Obasanjo, who arrived at the airport aboard a presidential jet with registration number 5N-FGO at 3.05 p.m., however, did not answer reporters’ questions on the impact of the Obama presidency for Africa and Nigeria. Rather, he chose to give military salute to amuse journalists and workers at the presidential wing.

Duke, who arrived at the presidential wing in company with Obasanjo, wished away all excitement over the euphoria of the new US president, saying that there were many people in Nigeria who had the capacity to perform like Obama but had not be given the chance.


http://odili.net/news/source/2009/jan/21/604.html

Was such a quote made in front of OBJ? Cos that would have been embarassing. Why didn;t reporters ask Duke what his former boss did to ensure that there were credile elections (as opposed to do or die) which would have enabled the people who are not bing "given a chance" to be elected into different capacities like senators, govenors, house of rep members and president? Maybe he should have thought a bit more before speaking?

[quote author=Godman_n link=topic=221353.msg3367533#msg3367533 date=1232505361]In this age, this very day that in far away United States of America, a formerly unknown young man, rose out of sheer hard work to become the first Black President.

This very day, we stand here discussing about two corrupt, moral bankrupt old men. We called them leaders because they have misused enough of our time and stolen enough of our resources as a nation to fill their pockets. We forget about the denial of our basic right to choose our leaders by these very individuals, both in 2003 and 2007. We forgot the morbid revelations of stolen billions from the power probe; from their correspondences about the Petroleum trust fund. We find it difficult to imagine the generations wasted in pursuit of the 2003 and 2007 election; the several killed, the several wounded; the laws broken; the constitutions manipulated; the opportunities denied.

We find it difficult to appreciate that, eight good years both of our national life and individual life have been wasted by these very individuals. That these very individuals doctored our supreme document the constitution – the electoral act; Obasanjo proposed to call it the printer’s devil, if caught – the biggest desecration of the very essence of our nationhood. The very document upon which the blood of million both on the defunct Biafran Side and the Nigerians was wasted to Protect. Without this Document; I ask what is the basis for our Nationhood? Are we nation made for rogues to be able to thrive? Are we not as human as other people of other races? Can we not as a people, as a race be allowed to organize ourselves? Do we not deserve our own Nationhood; our own country?

If we do and Nigeria choose not to be a nation, let the constitution be shredded; a document that can be tampered in the middle of the night, in the darkest of the corners is worth only an ordinary paper. A nation that calls such document a constitution is worth not to be. So is the gravity of the offence that these two men committed. Which offence can be more than that? Several have been killed in the name of defending this nation. Millions were wasted, I repeat during the war, thousand for coup plotting – the Nzegwos, Dimkas, Maman Vastas, Orkas; yet the crime of these two old men in manipulating the constitution is equal in its threat to our nationhood. I propose they are also as good for the Gallows; but who can pull the trigger? Where are the brave men? Where are the brave judges to pass the sentence?

A land in need of men of courage! [/quote]seems the crux of the whole matter

@lucabrasi, is this great man of yours going to be forced on the nation?  . The thing is that although free and fair elections sound so simple you have to ask yourselves why such has not being achieved. This is because free and fair elections goes much deeper than one might think and actually represents genuine progress in nationhood which Nigeria does not have hence the scenario it faces. One of the problems has always been having to choose between the lesser of two evils come election day, this is because the values of democracy which stem from the ability to choose one's leaders are not there in the first place. When Mrs A knows that her vote counts and she uses such, that act of voting though simple is already MRs A investing her interest and hope in the nation. Such a simple act of participation in the way the country is run might surprise you on the scale in which it makes people more invested in what government is doing. It is like paying taxes, a simple procedure which also represents an investment (though legally obligational) in a government. The tax payer is hence more interested in what his/her money is being used for and spent on. Such things foster more participation in government which in the case of Nigeria has to be a good thing, doesn't it?

A genuine democracy based on free and fair elections also has the potential to foster a richer pool of candidates so that choosing a leader won't have to be equivalent of someone asking you wether you rather be killed by a gun shot to the head or slashing by a blunted knife. Such i believe is simply a matter of leaders being seen for their works as opposed to what they say or their political godfathers or how much money they have etc. Hence if Mr B wants to get good electricity he won't be so eager to vote for the renouned thief who gives him money but might want to opt for the man who has proven and convinced Mr A that he can complete such projects. An idea of fostering a richer pool of candidates will make it more likely that the Mr visionary you aspire for the nation won't be a one off ordeal.

For the leader chosen through a free and fair election it genuinely puts the mandate of the people in his hands. It would be had to imagine diversionary interests considering the people who got such into power are the people of the nation not a select few. Hence whose interest do you think will come first?

Such things might be more uniting than you think because i believe everyone from all ethnic groups and areas of the country want such developments. An act so simple as free and fair elections, and it has not occured in Nigeria, is that not hence a measurable index for the nationhood of the country that allows for leadership of the nation to continue to belong in crooked and questionable hands?

@poster, wasn't that analysis a bit too comprehensive for a "first step"?
Personal view: the first step to making genuine progress in Nigeria is free and fair elections, everything else though progressive in their own respects will be artificial in the fight for through nationhood and democracy. It is like the difference between a house and a home, for a nation is not the structures that are built or any of that, but the people, the values, etc.

Kobojunkie:
Actually, if you read your posts so far, you are the one making it about your being enamored to the man and not about the facts. Focus on the facts and leave the assumptions out of the debate to see what this has been about.

No one here has so far said the program will fail, not a single person. With the new revelation that CISCO is in charge, I am more than assured that if government allows them licensing needs required, this will work. However, I will not inject there being some benefit to the people just cause I can assume such.


Lol . . .  Again businesses are not people in lagos. Businesses are businesses, CCTV already exists in Lagos. Many of the businesses in Lagos already have CCTVS. The new thing in this case is moving the feeds into a database (assumed to be monitored by government – I am unable to verify if this will be the case).

I am not continuing on it but I am against you selling me that it is. Kapish? For all I know, there are already many ADT like companies in the same Lagos.



You are the one here with the twists, sorry, not I. I have been calling that we stick to facts and not injects assumptions and MAYBEs into the whole gist up until now. Yes it is futile at this point but please let us stop trying to spray Fairy dust on anything the man does just so we can claim another brownie point for him is my call.

Why not point out sections of my posts where i have made this more about fashola as opposed to arguing a case for cctv being important too and a priority as well?
Are you not the one along with others that assumed that the CCTV was meant to protect citizens?
Where have i tried to sell you the idea that CCTV in lagos is a novel idea?
You keep on going back to facts, facts which i have tried basing my arguements on and its quite amusing you mention such considering you didn't even know the company was an IT company, etc until i posted the article by punch which took me seconds to unearth. Anyway, a possibly healthy debate (once upon a time) has gone beyond that. I won't bother responding because i am now convined it has become futile continuing. If anything though it has informed people about things like the funding arrangements, the company handling it, etc. So if i don't respond don't take it as bad manners, i am just so done with this  . Have a nice day

Kobojunkie:
NO, because most of the banks and businesses in lagos have have CCTV installed for over 15 years now and that has yet to adversely affect security in Lagos. If you have ever been to VI, you would note that most all the properties there have CCTV installed. Has that made VI more secure for the people? Not necessarily.


The insecurity that is mentioned above does not necessarily point to securing of investments the way you are trying to make it seem. Corruption is a bigger issue and no amount of CCTV can stop corruption and government “policy changes” that have robbed people of their investments in the past.

On the issue of security, having privately run security is not new in Nigeria, given, this is at a bigger scale and sort of reminds me, again of ADT here, only that this is the state government advertising the idea. Now, there remains the issue of a bad police force. In the past, banks have arrested criminals on their properties, turned them over to the police, only to have them released the next minute. If the company monitored CCTV was not able to stop this, how does a CCTV plugged into what we assume to be stated owned Database solve this problem?  




Here is the deal. If you say CCTV by Fashola brings jobs, which sound more meaningful than CCTV by Fashola brings security to Lagos. This so far sounds no different than the signing of a deal with the dish satellite network company from South Africa, to bring Satellite TV to those who can afford it and jobs, simple!



We read from Fashola’s response that AGAIN THE CAMERA’s WILL NOT BE FUNDED BY THE STATE. So, regardless of speculations, the man said NO. Why do you find that hard to accept? The article you posted also pushes this as a private initiative and less government. Another article quotes the man or a rep stating that NO TAX MONEY WILL BE USED FOR THIS. What speculation do you want me to subscribe to now?


Please stop with the wailing already. Not a single soul has so far said that all other things are at stand still while CCTV is being focused on. Assuming that those with opposing views think that way is sort of ridiculous and in my opinion childish.  

@Lucabrasi, somehow assumes he is the only one “Monitoring” the situation in lagos and so I would rather skip his post as it is not based on facts but more his assumptions on issues and he makes that clear in his post in response to @B.o.s.s.

You can try to sell me the whole CCTV will magically make businesses tackle other issues line or  we can stick to what we know of this and go along with the actual work on ground instead of speculating. I have made myself clear here.

It is not funded currently with Tax payers money.
No where are we told this is to be monitored or organized by Government. Please let us stop trying to blow fairy dust into this and allow it be what it is.

Please could you highlight where i said the CCTVs are being bought by the government? Please could you show me where i said tax payer's money is being used to buy CCTVs? Corruption is a bigger issue but not the only issue. I don't think you really got what i was aying in my previous post. I don't know what you are getting at with the "CCTV by Fashola" part, you seem to be making this more about him than most. I didnt say CCTV will 'magically' fix businesses rather i said the security of businesses can provide a better business environment so i don't think i am trying to "sell" you any line here. Having private security is not new in Nigeria but i don't think there has been a move to co-ordinate it like this before neither do i think wether the idea being novel or not is such a big issue as you continue to make it. Is it a good initiative which won't be all funded by government? Yes. So what is the issue? I am getting tired and this arguement is entering futility and seems to be arguement for arguement sake (in my opinion), especially when you seem to inject new twists to my posts so have a nice day.

[quote author=must_a_far link=topic=219950.msg3366188#msg3366188 date=1232474008]i_laugh and sky blue

i had questioned how it would be powered, what support system has been put in place to enable us derive maximum benefits not partial. if from what i said, u were able to see my assumption of its failure then i guess i must be good at this and not know it then.[/quote]At current a good number of street lights in the newly refurbished roads in Lagos are powered from an alternate source and not PHCN and inverters are used. It wouldn't be too difficult to imagine that such could be used as an approach as well. The original idea for the street lights on the BRT corridors was that they would be powered by solar power which is also used in certain roads in port harcourt and other areas of the country, don't know if that is what is being used in the final thing though. I hope if anything this arguement has informed all of things we might not have known. So enough with the numerous speculation, you can research these things.

[quote author=B.O.S.S. link=topic=219950.msg3366135#msg3366135 date=1232473264]Not just assumptions though. It's unfortunate that i_laugh and lucabrsi weren't here on Sunday to read what Fashola himsaid said regarding privates and govt operating the CCTV together. But afterall, Lucabrasi said he didn't need to be there while he's assuming and supporting the press' reports.[/quote]So much has been hinged one "what fashola said", are you willing to base the whole arguement on 2 or so short sentences that supports what has been in articles about the whole issue? If i post the response you speak of will that change things? LOL.
I might as well post the much vaunted reply so we can move on:

TextCast: Fashola, thank you Wale
TextCast: the governor has jyust been askec about cctv]
TextCast: fashola: I don;t agree that we are wasting money on CCTv
TextCast: the biggest challagnes apart form transport are security
TextCast: : We have inadequate number of police officer
TextCast: : for 6 million people
TextCast: : In any event the number of cameras we are putting in will not all be funded by Lagos State gov
TextCast: : we will be providing cameras for anyone, the supplier will install the equipment adn connect someone to teh database
TextCast: : using technology to improve thes security

[quote author=must_a_far link=topic=219950.msg3366153#msg3366153 date=1232473453]i agree with you that blackspots are mainly where the cameras would be required. wat about public places like idumota or ojuelegba where there are always people present at all times of the day. yet your bag is snatched at high noon. it is easy to assume that the devices would be placed where human eyes cant always be. but nothing supports that assumption from the facts provided by the authorities.

nowhere has it been stated where exactly the cams are going to be placed. people coming up with installing it on the premises of businesses and what not makes it seem like ^&*)*%$##^ (make that mean whatever u feel bests fills that gap)[/quote]A lot of the "assumptions" was driven by peaople arguing on nairaland without really researching into the issue. Moral of the story, read up on the issue if you are not sure. The locations of the CCTV installations are not being given out on purpose.

[quote author=must_a_far link=topic=219950.msg3366111#msg3366111 date=1232472937]on an awesome day, that which u have stated above is what the CCTV should do. but when they start making mention of private businesses installing, without defining what a "private business" is? they simply gave reason for a detour to my line of thought.

For the most part the reasons we have all given for the projects success are entirely based on ASSUMPTIONS we all made.[/quote]Are you also willing to accept that the failures you assume will occir with regards to the CCTV project are also based on assumptions on your path as well?

Kobojunkie:
Don’t put words in my mouth please. Never said it is not in the people’s interest, but I am sure I am clear in my stating that it is not the same as securing the people. Securing businesses is not same as providing security to the people. Two completely different issues here.

We can speculate on the “May-be”s , but I would rather we stick to what we know of today. Again, securing businesses is not same as securing the people. Whether this will attract investors or not is yet to be seen.


Usually, one would expect the government to put the issues that directly affect the people first and that that affects companies later. That is why we have States and communities that are run like corporations where the citizens are shareholders. Not sure that is even close to the case in Lagos. Also need to point out here that the last thing I would want to have is a government that pays more attention to the private companies and less to directly solving the problems the people are facing.

Now when we talk of investments and businesses moving in, we have learnt that expansion does not necessarily mean better life for the people. So I still think we need to keep to reality rather than speculate here.


From recent history in lagos, we already know that more jobs does not mean better security or better living conditions for the people of Lagos. We have bankers now and stock traders who live in face-2-face. We have people who still get less than 2 hours of electricity each day and sleep with one eye open but they work in banks and so on.


Again, CCTV has always been in Lagos. Banks from Ikorodu to VI already had CCTV installed. Not sure why you are pushing this as something new. However, linking it all up to a main database is new and could help in better securing those companies. Note, many of these companies already have private security forces to help them in securing their property.

In terms of jobs, likely the citizens will benefit but that does not in any way eliminate the basic needs which remain missing; basic needs including need for security. If I work at a bank that has CCTV linked to the database, am I secure when I step out of the company’s property to go back to my home where there is no CCTV and no electricity?

You mentioned the images from the camera’s will be used for investigations and I was wondering who in this case will work on doing that. Cisco? Or Hisbah or the same Nigerian police with next to no training and still inadequate?

Well, the "May-bes" seem to be coming from more than one camp  . Isn't assuming that securing businesses wouldn't necessary lead to business expansion etc a "may-be" on your path as well? If you look at international market ratings of the Nigerian economy, it has been stated numerous times that Nigeria has a huge market to give good returns to investors but it is seen as a high risk market because of political instability, corruption and insecurity of both economic investments via policies and security of the businesses themselves during operation. The group that built the palms shopping mall in Lagos made very huge returns on their investments within months. As well as providing a service for a market that was already existing, it created jobs for people etc. Creating jobs to me is a "basic ammenity" as you would call it because it provides people with an income. Does such not directly affect the people?

You bring up the issue of electricity yet again when i am sure you know it isn't so straight foward due to the present system whereby states are not allowed to provide electricity for just themselves. I am not trying to sell CCTV in lagos as a novel idea, but you keep on referring to it as 'government advertising'. Has there ever been co-ordination of such CCTV systems before? I just don't get the sudden shock at the scheme not being primarily geared towards citizen protection when you consider that there was a lot of speculation on nairaland and a lot of the funds are not coming from the government but from the private sector and on top of that jobs are going to be created.

And then again, the perception that this is the only thing being focused on in lagos at the moment. Refer to @lucabrasi's previous post. Does providing CCTV for businesses who won't likely turn down the opportunity to get better protection for themselves mean other issues are not being tackled? Are fixing CCTV and say - tackling problems in the educational sector mutually exclusive? For something as basic as improved security for businesses which i deem very important and even vital to expanding the commercial sector and creating more jobs and attracting more businesses and growth, i really don't see what the big deal is especially when most of the funds is not coming from the government and jobs are being created. I mean, what's the problem?  

Kobojunkie:
Lol… Good business initiative, you mean but nothing for citizens. I am at least glad you agree that it is not necessarily going to improve security for the CITIZENS, those whom the government was hired to take care of. So I do not see how this is a GOOD INITIATIVE when it is not in the direct interest of the people.

Sure, cameras, even camcorder recordings can be used in solving of crime that does not in anyway mean we ought to get those for all citizens now, does it? I am not sure anyone has so far said the video can not be used in crime investigation, and this brings us to question of WHO will be doing the investigating here. CISCO? Or the Police force that the governor himself complained about? Or is the state government going to create it’s own Hisbah-like group? Lol


The government is building a command center using tax money to monitor company security around the state? Maybe that does not seem absurd to you but I want to wait on that. Instead of accepting that tax payer money is actually going to monitoring of private company security, I will choose to wait on that.

At first the assumption was that this was being bankrolled by government, hence the reason why I believe it is right for people to call up priorities. Now we know from the governor himself that the cameras will not be funded and maintained with tax payer money, to which I respond, as long as we are not using the people’s money, I am cool. It does not tell of if the command center is being built for government but it does tell us that government contract with the company is that at least 70% of the employees have to be locals. We do know that the funding for the project is not coming from tax money, which I am cool with.

So as we investigate, we might find more and more info out there to give us a clearer picture of what this is about but so far, I do not believe this will help the people of Lagos in a big way.

So securing of businesses is not in the people's interest? How do you reckon? So if the security of such areas where businesses are mainly located (eg the CBD) improves and investors from all over the place know there property and businesses can be prepared, won't that attract more investors into lagos? Is that not all part of creating a better "environment" for businesses to flourish and thrive? At the end of the day if more busineeses move in and invest and there is expansionand greater commercialisation in lagos won't the citizens benefit? Won't such mean more jobs and more tax from more businesses for lagos state? Isn't CCTV all part of the infrastructure of making lagos more attractive to investors and businesses and hence a way of attracting more inestment, jobs and economic growth to the state? And the citizens won't benefit from such?

We read thesame article right? In the article it says CISCO is an international IT firm, so what leads you to speculate wether such will do investigations?

[quote author=B.O.S.S. link=topic=219950.msg3365700#msg3365700 date=1232466380]I dont think they'll really use the CCTV to investigate except it's in the interest of the companies that bankrolled the project. I can guarantee you that because that's Nigeria for you. The Nigeria I've grown to know for the past 26 years.[/quote]Your guarantee on this is "Nigerianess"?

Kobojunkie:
Now I am better able to answer your questions

a) The Governor mentioning the Cameras need to be connected to their Database ( assuming this is government owned and operated at this point)
b) From the very article that you posted on here mentioning that CISCO is the company holding the contract
c) The fact that the only way for any entity to monitor the images in close to real time mode is if it were connected directly to some network that enables this.

a) Fashola’s own words quoted or misquoted by our moderator in chat on Sunday. Fashola stresses on there that the camera’s themselves will not be funded by the state government i.e private entities are in charge of purchasing the cameras and hence in charge of maintainance costs since all the state endorsed supplier will be doing in this case is hooking the machine up to the “State’s” database.


Numerous banks and establishments in Lagos already have CCTV installed, in addition to having private security guards. Many of these banks have had CCTV and monitors for decades already so this technology is not new in the state, or the country.


I know you believe this is geared towards keeping companies/businesses safe but my main interest here is how this keeps the people safe. How many Lagosians can afford to install $500 CCTVs on their properties and how many of them can afford the maintenance and connection fees that may result?

I don’t believe any of us on here has stated that we do not want CCTV in Lagos, what we are looking for is the direct connection between this initiative and the security of the average lagosian. If not, it is just a government advertised project to bring in more CCTVs.

I think a lot of people including I also assumed the CCTV will be primarily for security of the citizenry. That might not be the primary objectives but it does not mean it can't be used for investigating into crimes carried out around such areas and nevertheless it is still a good initiative even if at current it is pimarily geared towards protecting businesses. Furthermore, the government is building a command centre to moitor and co-ordinate the system, hence isn't that a little more than advertising CCTV?
At first people were arguing wether CCTV was a priority given other things now we have more info on what the initiative is actually about you are arguing that it won't be enough to protect everyone? The issue here is that most of the funding is coming from the private sector and government just wants to link the systems to co-ordinate them, right?

[quote author=B.O.S.S. link=topic=219950.msg3365666#msg3365666 date=1232465915]You seem to forget that (if you read from page 1 or thereabout), that was my question to Fashola when we were online (on Sunday through the chat with KoboJunkie andSkyBlue) that we want poverty alleviation first or the better functioning of the police rather than the CCTV but he said “CCTV is not fully a government initiative but a co-operation of the government and the private sectors”. So all this CCTV this CCTV that means jack shit because he only wants to protect the companies and not the people.

Lucabrasi, as much as I like to read your post and most times I agree while sometimes I disagree (which is normal I suppose), why are you still supporting Fashola and basing your fact on hear say rather than we (myself, KoboJunkie andSkyBlue) hearing from the horse’s mouth that the CCTV is what I said above.

CCTV IS NOT FOR THE SAFETY OF THE CITIZENS BUT FOR THE SAFETY OF THE COMPANIES THAT WOULD BE BANKROLLING IT.

At least I pasted it on here though you didn’t join us for the chat on Sunday.[/quote]Look up at previous post as to why safety of the company is also an important issue. CCTV and poverty alleviation are not mutually exclusive as you seem to advocate and is there anything that leads you to believe that if a person is murdered in such an area the CCTV won't be used to investigate because it was an attack on a citizen rather than a business?

Kobojunkie:
No, I want to base it on the response from the horses in this case. SECRET installations of cameras? One minute the cameras are not funded by government, next government is involved and sort of funding? COme on!! I particularly like the fact that the man himself gave us an incite into his idea of the CCTV program on sunday. Who do I believe now?

On the Database issue, ofcourse it has to be linked to some network. Or are you saying the database will be local to the location of the camera ? How safe is that?

Who convinced you government wasn't involved in some part of the funding in the first place? If you read news about this whole CCTV thing you won't be surprsed by the response given on sunday because it correlates to what had been announced.

[quote author=B.O.S.S. link=topic=219950.msg3365141#msg3365141 date=1232458366]@ SkyBlue that comment was made out of sheer frustration (I hope you could read that in me). However, about the CCTV, you could tell (from the online chat with Fashola) that the whole project would probably be 30% government and 70% company i.e. he wants the private companies to get involved in the project and protect themselves and then the public would still suffer because the CCTV is nor really in their interest but in the interest of the companies sponsoring the projects.

I hope you still understand that as successful as the project could be, it’ll have little effect on the average Nigerian citizenry as they’re not being guarded by CCTV but the companies are.
And guess what I’ll do if I were a criminal (which I know a lot of criminals would do), there’ll be a change of tactics and instead of robbing companies that have CCTV installed, they’ll start robbing private Nigerian citizens as they’re not being guarded by the state funded camera. So whichever way you look at it, the CCTV in fact would put the people at more risks while the private firms that support the project and bankrolled it with their own cash would be well protected.[/quote]You might not think so, but the security of businesses can affect the 'average Nigerian' in lagos. For a very long time now Nigeria has been seen as a potentially viable but at thesame time a very high risk market. Banks are robbed every other day by dare devil robbers that have gotten so bold now it is done in broad daylight and with such audacity. So tell me, what company would want to investin such an environment which can't even ensure security of their businesses talk less of economic security? What does this mean? Less potential investors into the Nigerian market and hence an effect on growth and investments in different sectors and hence an effect on potential job creation.

Kobojunkie:
Here's the problem @SkyBlue. If you read other articles, on the same, you almost get the same Government involved bit but there is nothing better than hearing from the horses mouth on this and that is what I would rather go on. Look again at the response that we got and compare it to that article there.

You really want to base your whole premise on this issue on a few lines of text which does mention the word "database" suggesting it is linked to a network?

Kobojunkie:
Point 1.  in the USA, CCTV in public areas is manned by police. Every other security outfit there that is privately manned can only function on private property, AKA may-guard, who by the way also carry guns in Nigeria. The government DOES NOT source the security of the people to private entities. Can we please get facts Straight.

Point 2. Lagos State Governor is not going to be directly involved in buying or maintaining the CCTVS. Turns out the government is only announcing to people that they need to start installing and maintaining CCTVS on their properties for their own sakes. So, this is not really Fashola accomplishing anything order than telling the citizens and companies that maybe CCTV could serve as upgrade to burglary-proof doors and windows. So all dreams of the WONDERS OF CCTV may as well be put in the same folder as those that belong to BURGLARY-PROOFING windows and doors or even using Juju to man the doors till further information is obtained on the issue as to exactly what part the privately owned and installed CCTVS will help government.

Forget about wether the project is living up to the visions of grandeur you imagined for it for a sec. I actually thought you might have researched what the plan actually was about, so let us lighten the speculation so you can stop with the accusations of "adding things" cos no offence meant but it is getting a tad irritating. Pulling out the article below took me 3 seconds


Lagos CCTV project faces delay
By Mudiaga Affe
Published: Wednesday, 19 Nov 2008
Three months after its scheduled date of completion, the proposed installation of the closed circuit television cameras in Lagos State may have suffered a delay.
The Lagos State Government had commenced the project in January this year as part of the moves to check the activities of criminals in the state.

But our correspondent gathered that the project had not become operational because the building that would serve as the control command centre had not been completed.

The company handling the project under government‘s Private Public Partnership Initiative, Cisco, an international IT firm, had started installing the equipment in the specified areas in Lagos.

A source, who preferred anonymity, said that secret installation of the cameras had already begun, but for security reasons, would not want to disclose the areas.

In a telephone interview with our correspondent, the state Commissioner for Science and Technology, Dr. Obafemi Hamzat, said the government had given its specifications to Cisco for the kind of equipment it required.

He added that the company had also been shown the identified black spots where the equipment would be mounted.

The commissioner explained that as part of efforts to create job opportunities for its indigenes, the government had also instructed the firm that 70 per cent of its workforce should be sourced from the local populace.

Hamzat, however, declined to state the specific cost of the project, saying that since it was a PPP initiative, the government would not know the entire cost of the project.

He said, ”The project is a PPP initiative. All government had done was to give specifications of what it wanted and spelt out areas where it wanted the equipment fixed.

“We have also insisted that 70 per cent of the workforce should come from Lagos.

”Government cannot determine the cost of the project at the moment because it is under a PPP initiative. However, before the project is completed, we will have known the costs.”

The CCTV project is part of the state-wide inter-connectivity network and e-payment system inaugurated in September 2008 by the Governor, Mr. Babatunde Fashola.

The building that will house the control command centre unit is said to be about 40 per cent completed.

The contracting firm handling the two-storey building, Moreno Plc, blamed the delay of the project on the bad weather condition arising from rainfall.

Our correspondent, however, learnt that bureaucratic delays from government might have been responsible for the delay in the completion.

The Project Engineer for the company, Mr. Gile Pina, who attributed the delay to ‘bad weather’, could not, however, give any specific date for the completion of the project.

A source said that government officials were responsible for the delay as they had held onto the project file for over three months.

[quote author=B.O.S.S. link=topic=219950.msg3365046#msg3365046 date=1232456911]You know, let's even put the issue of CCTV on ice whether it's going to work nor not. But for God's sake, it's not rocket science to see that the masses are still living from hand to mouth. What's the big deal in dealing with that?[/quote]You keep on arguing along this line of reasoning. Do you want the government to start handing out cash? The most effective way for a state with limited resources to provide money and hence food for the people is to provide opportunities to make a decent living. Opportunities that come through investments and growth in different sectors and hence job creation. Oppurtunities that come from an environment that allows people to be able to start up viable businesses, etc. Such an environment needs to be present for such to occur. Lagos government is not funding the whole CCTV thing so what are you getting at please? It is not about you being against this or not, but at least present the whole picture. Its like somebody faulting the mayor of new york on wasting funds on a building being built by private investors. Security is an issue and if criminals know that they can be caught and properly investigated then that surely in itself could serve as a form of deterrent. The issue should be about how to create an effective monitoring of the cameras and utilising such a facility in fighting crime. The whole success stands on the monitoring centre which has not yet being built.