@goshen,
sorry for the late response. It's going to be a busy weekend for me & even I might not be responding as I should, but I will try to.
Your question on if I'm off the pre-law or law group can be answered in Romans 3:21-22.

On the contrary Christ did not do away with the ten commandments, Read Matthew 22:34-40.
Read the ten commandments again and see how all relate to the new commandment of loving GOD and your neighbour as yourself.
As I said earlier, Jesus Christ had every opportunity to castigate tithe but He did not. He said do not leave it undone.

You have basically given the ground rules, I can't think of any for now and I'l respond when next I can.

goshen360:

Kindly read the link i posted, if you care. However, we are brothers in Christ, tithe or no tithe should we disagree on this. I don't have to respond because you want to stay on your point and I want to stay on my point, so we don't have any means of rightly dividing the word of truth. However, am willing to that we look critically into this should you be will to drop your idea and am willing to do same, not arguing but putting line-by-line to see what exactly the word of God says about tithing, not who is right or who is wrong. Then we can go ahead. I am not ashamed of the Gospel neither am I running away. I have found out that we aren't getting anywhere arguing and that is why I stayed out. Ok. (My e-handshake extended also)

(Takes e-hand and shakes)

Ok. I took a peek at the contents of the link you posted and could already pull out biases from a number of points you made and in some cases your trying to even relate what has nothing to do with tithe to tithing.
One of the biases was where you said and I quote:

In the seventh year, there was to be no planting, no reaping, and no tithing. (Lev. 25:1-7) Do tithe-preaching pastors give their congregation a break every 7 years? I haven’t met one yet.

From that very point, you said there was no planting, no reaping and ofcourse no tithing as there was nothing to tithe on in the first place. The people had no produce in the first place, so what would they have tithed on? This means as long as they reaped, they tithed. Is there any year in the present that people rest and do not work? Do you get the bias in that your statement?

On Abraham, we have discussed at length on this thread. The spoil was the victors - in this case Abraham and his men that fought the battle. His vowing not to take the anything that related to the King of Sodom did not hinder his tithing on it, that was why he told the king of Sodom to take the rest AFTER giving his (Abraham's) men their portion of the spoil. Abraham, therefore, did not take his portion (the funniest thing is that that alone shows the spoil was the victors even without supporting it with other verses) and Melchizedek was not just some random king he decided to give the tithe to. He was the Priest of God. And it was only ONE account that we see that Abraham and Melchizedek met. If we decide to discuss we can compare scripture on the point of Abraham.

From the post-moses era, I also noticed you jumped straight to Malachi totally ignoring the times of Hezekiah and Nehemiah when they tried to steer the people back to God and following His word and also telling the people to give to the Priest & Levites their portion. Of which without mentioning, they knew the portion of the priests/Levites was a tithe.

Even in Malachi, all you did was ask a question? Actually you questioned the word of God concerning the benefits of tithing. When I actually have time to respond to your thread, we can discuss further on this.

Except I missed it, for the new testatment part you never mentioned where Paul talked about the support of those that preach the gospel as I quoted on this thread.


The truth is there is no basis for disagreement. The idea of tithing is not my idea hence it's not a question of me dropping it. It is not a case of who is right or wrong either but as all are persuaded in their hearts based on God's word. We rightly divide the word of truth by studying. Our discussion will make us go back to study and speak life to the hearers.

I am willing for us to discuss, objectively, and not argue on the points you made on your thread, or on this thread. Let us discuss like we would just as brothers in Christ if you care to.
And, if you accept to and before we proceed, state your rules of this engagement.

Cheers.

(EDITED)

@goshen,
You didn't contribute to respond to my post to you.
I only responded based on what your yourself said on having nothing more to contribute, I wonder how what i think matters in this case.
Don't worry, my thoughts shouldn't concern you.
Pleased to meet you, the NL name is Snowwy. (e-hand stretched out for e-handshake).

goshen360:

We are learning too well here. Everyone of us that is against the "monster" called tithe believe in giving. This is what the New testament teaches. I can't contribute more knowledge to tithe teachers who already made up their minds.

God bless y'all.

Now I actually had to LOL at that.
Tithe (a tenth) is a 'monster'? But giving (which I wouldn't be surprised if he'll claim he gives far more) isn'p so scary.
This is classic.
I respect that you can't contribute more knowledge.

@Bernimoore,
I knew I wouldn't be surprised. I leave you to your conscience.

@Zikky, lol. You sure are one funny person. It's actually nice 'posting' with you.
To each his own.

@Bernimoore, the last I remember, you said I 'L I E D', actina all smug and I provided proof and you totally overlooked that.
I actually expected you to do what a Christian would do when proved wrong. I would however not be surprised if you don't though.

Zikkyy:

Zikkyy have no point Lol was it zikkyy that said justice, faith & mercy is universal? was it zikkyy that said tithe is universal? I can see you now agree that Jesus was not talking about the universal application of tithe, which is what i have been saying. So how can you now say zikkyy does not have  point? Honestly i think i just scored 10 points, so award me my marks abeg Thank God you are not a lecturer

There is no basis for comparing mercy, faith & justice to the levitical tithe. This is what i am trying to convey here. Mercy, faith & justice will still operate even in the absence of the levitical priesthood. A Jew will not tithe if there are no Levi priest to collect the tithe. That's the difference.

I did not relegate tithe to the Levitical priesthood, the question is what was the practice at the time? If Melchi had showed up when the mosaic law was in operation, he would not receive tithe. Jesus could not have been referring to a practice that is no longer applicable when he made the statement. Abraham's tithe to Melchi will not be relevant in this case. It is not an issue of just tithing, it's about tithing based on currently operating rules.

Lol what are you saying now? that we should support Jesus so he can focus on God's work?

Correction: Jesus told the pharisees not to neglect tithing as stipulated in the Mosaic law.

It was obvious I was talking from the bible, Universal in applicability to before, during and after the law.  That is the whole period from creation to date. You pulled in pagan cultures not me. You have awarded yourself a score already.

After the law with Christ as High Priest, Apostle Paul spoke about the OT and related it to the NT.
If you have a different view of what Apostle Paul meant, then I respect that, it is just amazing when you come along to undermine tithe saying it has no biblical correlation to current times.

While Jesus was on earth, he was putting in place the dawn of a new order and priesthood. He ordained that those that preach the gospel should live of it so your joke is lost on me.


'Abraham gave a tenth to Melchi is not evidence that tithe is for Christians. What you practice today is your creation (or that of your pastor). '

On the contrary, why you do not practise tithing today is your own creation, there is no biblical evidence showing that tithe is not to be practiced today or is abolished. Tithe was a means of support and if with what Paul has said, linking OT to NT, then there is nothing more to say.

'Nobody is saying pastors should not receive support.'

This is the most laughable comment you have made, have you gone through the posts of many against tithe both on the thread and others? You said 'nobody is saying'. Those against tithe say that Jesus said we should give to the poor and they will rather give to the poor than give to any MOG/church. Meanwhile evern in the OT, there was a place for giving to support the work of God, to the poor, parents and others. From the NT it is obvious that this applies too.
As I confirmed, you only gave your opinion. Not God's.

If all the evidence shown, based on scripture, is not sufficient evidence on God's opinion of tithe, then let us let it be.
The word of God will always prevail.
Cheers.

BERNIMOORE:

@Snnowy



Snowwy quote;

If the Lord ordained this, why would Paul even be talking about it in the first place?

It was because of people 'examining him', men like a lot of people today who are against giving to support those that work full-time in the gospel, that was why he supported himself. Paul preferred to boast in the Lord. It did not make it wrong.




MAY I USE THE WORD NOW, THAT YOU 'L I E D' ABOUT PAUL ABOVE (in blue). YOU MANUFACTURED A REASON 'WHY PAUL WAS TALKING ABOUT 'THE QUOTE'.WITHOUT SHOWING ANY BIBLE VERSE IN THE CORINTHIANS TO BUTRESS THAT 'CERTAIN PEOPLE ARE EXAMINING HIM'

IF YOU ARE SURE OF IT THAT IT WAS BECAUSE SOMEONE IS EXAMINING HIM, SHOW US IN THE BIBLE WHO THEY ARE STRAIGHT AWAY. IM WAITING,DONT DODGE THIS IF YOU EVER WANT ANYBODY TO TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY.

1 Corinthians 9:3
3Mine answer to them that do examine me is this

May be you should study the word before you post. It was in verse 3. I just did not add that scripture.
You are really trying so so hard. Anyway, you do not need to fight me, it is plainly written in scripture.
Who is the 'L I A R' now?
*shake my head*

Zikkyy:

Which is important to the Christian? What came before the law or what came after the law?

Was Christ saying some Universal laws should be upheld or was he saying the requirement of the Mosaic law be upheld? You forget that these laws also applies to pagan worshippers. We should not be discussing universal laws here. Lets restrict ourselves to what Christ was talking about or refering to.

He added do not neglect the Levitical tithing. Jesus was not talking about the tithe rendered by Abraham.

I told you in my last post, you can give a tenth of your income to your church. Am sure God will accept any giving ranging from 0.1% to 100% (10% inclusive) if given with a sincere heart. The distinction am making is that your tenth is not a command from God. The percentage to give varies from one to another. The only tenth that was mandatory was the Levitical tithe and it is not applicable to Christians. There is no evidence that tithe was commanded by God prior to the Law. Abrahams tithe was either by choice or customary requirement. Jacob offered to tithe, God did not command.

Jesus said the Levitical tithe should not be neglected. Why is that difficult for you to understand? Jesus was not refering to a universal practice. To go this route is to imply that Jesus supported the babylonians tithe to their Sun god.

Tithing was valid, but was it a command for Christians? the answer is NO. The practice today varies as well. The tithe paid by Snowwy can only be defined by Snowwy, it has nothing to do with what Christ recommended.

So what am i saying here? Tithe as practiced today is based on how we define it and has no correlation with biblical practices, so stop trying to justify it using events recorded in the bible.

@Zikky, even pagan cultures give amongst themselves so you do not have a point in that regard. It is obvious I am talking based on the bible.
You affirmed that mercy, faith and justice was not restricted to the Levites and is practiced by Christians, yet you relegate tithe to the Levitical priesthood even when tithing was done by our Father of Faith, Abraham to Melcizedek, the High Priest:

Hebrews 7:3
3Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Hebrews 7:17
17For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Jesus told the Pharisees not to neglect tithing (did Christ just say it for the fun of it or was not the tithe used to support the Levites so they can focus on God's work?)and the Priesthood changed to that of Jesus after his death.


You said the apostles continued to talk about mercy, faith and Justice after the death of Christ and yet Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9:4, 6-14


4Have we not power to eat and to drink?
6Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
7Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8[b]Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?  [/b]
9For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10[b]Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt,[/b] this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11[b]If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? [/b]
12[b]If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? [/b] Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ
13[b]Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?[/b]
14[b]Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.[/b]'

Note all the bolded. Why would Paul quote from the OT to a Gentile church especially regarding supporting they of the gospel?
I have asked what is the 'power over you' he talked about and their right to food and drink. The food and drink, ofcourse, at the expense of the flock.
If the Lord ordained this, why would Paul even be talking about it in the first place?

It was because of people 'examining him', men like a lot of people today who are against giving to support those that work full-time in the gospel, that was why he supported himself. Paul preferred to boast in the Lord. It did not make it wrong.

It is, therefore, very funny when you say tithing of today was not recommended by Christ or has no biblical correlation. However, that is your (man's)opinion not God's.

@Bernimoore,
How convenient? You initially picked the whole of Zikky's post and told him to re-echo it then you modified it to say that you were only referring to the fact that Jews were the only ones to tithe.
Yet you went on arguing that all the others; Mercy, Faith & Justice were the 'under the law' type.

BERNIMOORE:

[b]@ Ssnowwy,

AND I STILL CONTINUE TO STAND BY WHAT I SAID;( mercy, faith and justice) ARE STILL UNDER THE LAW. WHEN JESUS RENDERED THAT STATEMENT IN MAT 23:23.

MAYBE YOU CAN UNDERSTAND IT THIS WAY, WHEN THE PHARISEE CAME TO REPORT THE DISCIPLES TO JESUS FOR ''NOT WASHING THEIR HANDS'' AS STATED UNDER THE LAW, WHAT DID JESUS SAID?

Matthew 15:17-20

17 Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. 20 These are the things which defile a man,
but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”

MY POINT IS THAT, JESUS EXPOSED THE FALASIES OF THE LAW COVENANT. AND WHAT HE CAME TO ADRESS.

Giving of what? TITHE, CAR, CASH,CHEQUES? IT ENTAILES GIVING FROM THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT NAMED: KINDNESS; WHICH INCLUDES GIVING TO THE POOR DIRECTLY, ASSISTING THE GOSPEL BY FREE GIVING NOT UNTIL IT HURTS, AND NOT ACCORDING TOTHE LAW, BUT GENEROUSLY. AMONG OTHER THINGS;

2 COR 9:
9 As it is written:

“He has dispersed abroad,
He has given to the poor;
His righteousness endures forever.”

MAYBE I SHOULD HELP YOU[/b]

'AND I STILL CONTINUE TO STAND BY WHAT I SAID;( mercy, faith and justice) ARE STILL UNDER THE LAW. WHEN JESUS RENDERED THAT STATEMENT IN MAT 23:23.

MAYBE YOU CAN UNDERSTAND IT THIS WAY, WHEN THE PHARISEE CAME TO REPORT THE DISCIPLES TO JESUS FOR ''NOT WASHING THEIR HANDS'' AS STATED UNDER THE LAW, WHAT DID JESUS SAID?

Matthew 15:17-20

17 Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. 20 These are the things which defile a man,
but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man. MY POINT IS THAT, JESUS EXPOSED THE FALASIES OF THE LAW COVENANT. AND WHAT HE CAME TO ADRESS.
”'

So you admit that Jesus was exposing the fallacies of the law convenant yet he did not expose the 'fallacy of tithe'. On the contrary, he told them not to neglect tithing. He told them to have mercy, faith and justice and NOT neglect tithing.
Since He came to expose the fallacies of the law convenant, why didn't he say to the Pharisees 'why don't you give to the poor and love God and quit this fallacy of tithing, is that what I require of you?'

Do you understand how it seems like you are talking from both sides of your mouth?


'Giving of what? TITHE, CAR, CASH,CHEQUES? IT ENTAILES GIVING FROM THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT NAMED: KINDNESS; WHICH INCLUDES GIVING TO THE POOR DIRECTLY, ASSISTING THE GOSPEL BY FREE GIVING NOT UNTIL IT HURTS, AND NOT ACCORDING TOTHE LAW, BUT GENEROUSLY. AMONG OTHER THINGS;'

You are meant to sow/give from the fruit of the spirit of love and kindness as you affirmed. The scripture said gather your 'bounty'. It can be anything, I wonder why you say 'free giving not until it hurts'. The early christians sold their all, lands, property and brought to the apostles feet (to be shared to all in need) with joy. Do you think that was not 'sacrificial?' They sold to give.
Have you sold all your land and property to give people in need before? When you do, you will know that is a sacrifice. So you think a sacrifice is easy?

If just supporting the church with a tenth of your earnings is equated to 'giving till it hurts', it explains now why you are vehemently against tithing. Yet you say 'it does not take me anything to pay tithe'. Yet Jesus said those that preach the gospel should live of the gospel just like in the OT.

BERNIMOORE:

IT DOESNT TAKE ANYTHING FOR ME TO PAY TITHE,BUT I WILL RATHER GIVE THE MONEY DIRECTLY TO HELP THE LESS PRIVILEDGE. AND NOT TO PROMOTE A VIRUS SCAM CALLED TITHE

@Bernimoore, you initially said the mercy, faith and justice spoken of by Jesus were 'law based' i.e of the Levite Priesthood, yet when Zikky said those laws were not restricted to the Levite priesthood but to Christians, you told him to re-echo it.
Were exactly do you stand?
Therefore, I don't understand your last post.
If you claim that Jesus wanted the Pharisees to teach obedience based based on that scripture, why did you say mercy, faith & justice were 'under the law' - i.e Levite priesthood based.

You claim 'sowing' refers to spiritual things only, why did you take 2 Cor. 9:6 out of context then?
You delibrately overlooked 2 Cor 9:1-7.
Is the sowing stated there not referring to giving?
I've made my points clear on this thread & in my post to Zikky.
Let the Word guide us and let's do all things in faith.
Cheers

@Zikky (Bernimoore you can gain from this too),
you stated that mercy, faith & justice were not restricted to the Levite priesthood and I affirm yes. Infact those 3 can be found before the law:

Justice - Gen 4:8-15
The blood of Abel required justice & everyone that would see Cain would want to kill him. Cain was punished albeit not killed.

Faith - Abraham believed GOD and it was counted unto him as righteousness Gen 15-6.
And Abraham was blessed by GOD.

Mercy - Exodus 1:15-20
The  hebrew midwives did not kill the male children despite Pharaoh's command. What they did was to show mercy. God blessed them.

This means they are universal laws.

Of all the laws in the OT, Jesus picked these 3, (which you confirmed were not restricted to the Levitical priesthood and apply to us today), and said they should be upheld. He added do not neglect tithing.
I know you've read about Abraham's tithe to the Priest of the Most High God and Abraham was blessed. Heb 7:6.

God approved tithing, Jesus said it should not be neglected, I need no further (edited) proof that tithing is valid and is universal as well.
Thank you.

Zikkyy:

I think the reason you continue to stick to Mathew 23:23 is because you refused to understand that the tithing practice being referred to in that particular verse can only be performed by a Jew. The practice was restricted to the levitical priesthood (as beneficiary). To adhere to Christ command, you'll need to find a Levi priest. Mercy, faith & justice does apply to Christians because they were not restricted to the levitical priesthood. The apostles continued to talk about mercy, faith & justice after the death of Christ.

Neither was tithe restricted to the levitical priesthood. Neither was mercy, faith and justice done away it.

Thanks, you just concluded the discussion.

BERNIMOORE:

[b]@Snowwy,

YES, THE OBLIGATION STATES PARTICULARLY TO THOSE WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW THAT;

James 2:10
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.


SO, THE OBLIGATION ''IS DECREED TOGETHER'' OR 'INTERWOVEN' IF YOU MUST KEEP ONE, YOU MUST KEEP WHOLE.
.

CAPITAL YES, BECAUSE WHAT CONSTITUTES THE TERMS OR DEFINATION OF MERCY, FAITH & JUSTICE UNDER THE LAW ARE CLEARLY STATED,DECREED AND CODED,THERE WAS AN ACTUAL BINDING TERMS.

SO IT IS ACTUALLY ATTACHED TO THE LAW ABSOLUTELY AS CONTAINED IN THE LAW AND BOUND BY THE PARTIES (GOD AND JEWS) ONLY 'IF THEY KEEP THEIR PART, GOD TOO WILL KEEP HIS OWN PART)

ITS BLESSING ALONG WITH MALLEDICTION,OR CONSEQUENCIES OF FAILURE;

HOW DO I MEAN;

1,JUSTICE(under law);

DEMANDS,FOR EXAMPLE, JUSTICE UNDER LAW ALSO INCLUDES;EYE FOR AN EYE, IF A CHILD MAKES A VERBAL ABUSE OR REBELS TO HIS PARENTS,HE MUST SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH,BY STONNING.

THAT THE 'ACT' OF EXECUTION MUST BE CARRIED OUT BECAUSE THE CHILD HAS BROKEN A CODED LAW JUSTICE HAS BEEN DONE TO THE CODED LAW.

2,MERCY(under law); ONE OF THE DEMANDS IS THAT WHEN YOU HARVEST YOUR FARM OR FIELD,YOU ARE BOUND TO LEAVE LEFT OVERS FOR THE POOR, FAILURE TO DO THAT, 'YOUR OBSERVATION OF HARVEST WILL NOT BE ACCEPTABLE TO GOD' SO, YOUR HARVEST IS IN FUTILITY BECAUSE YOU HAVE FAILED TO SHOW MERCY.

lev 23:22;
"When you harvest the grain in your land, don't harvest the grain in the corners of your fields or gather what is left after you're finished. Leave it for poor people and foreigners. I am the LORD your God."


3,FAITH;ALSO DEMANDS full obedience and not doubting God.

God's promise to Abraham included a promise that He would give them the land of Canaan, but that promise was conditional upon their faith and obedience to Him. The consequence of their disobedience was the annihilation of northern Israel.

JESUS DID NOT NECCESARILY STOP 'AN EXISTING LAW ON TITHE' BINDING ON ONLY JEWS WHICH JESUS HIMSELF MET,BUT BECAUSE HIS COMING WILL NOT ONLY PUT AN END TO 'TITHING DEMANDED BY LAW' BUT THE WHOLE ENTIRE 'BINDING WRITTEN LAW' IS ABOUT TO END.

SINCE THE DEFINATONS OF MERCY, FAITH & JUSTICE IS CONFINED IN A PARTICULAR INTERPRETATION TO SUIT THOSE UNDER THE LAW COVENANT, THE APPLICATION OF MERCY, FAITH & JUSTICE AS STATED IN THE TERMS OF THE LAW COVENANT HAS 'BEEN DONE AWAY WITH' OR 'ENDED'

BECAUSE IT HAS FAILED TO ACHIEVE THE PURPOSE OF BRINGING MAN INTO PERFECTION.

JESUS NOW COMES WITH HOPE, AND A NEW COVENANT;

NOTE,IF A PARTICULAR CONTRACT IS VOIDED OR NULIFIED, THE TERMS OF AGREEMENTS OF THE NEW AGREEMENT MAY ALSO CONTAIN PART, OR A FEW PORTIONS OF THE OLD AGREEMENT TO ALSO FORM NEW TERMS OF AGREEMENT WITHOUT NECCESARILY 'RE INSTATE' THE NULIFIED OR VOIDED AGREEMENT IN ANYWAYWHATSOEVER.



YOU NEED TO NOW AS A MATHER OF FACT DEFINE WHAT YOU MEAN BY MERCY, FAITH & JUSTICE, BECAUSE SINCE THE DEFINATONS OF MERCY, FAITH & JUSTICE IS CONFINED INTO A PARTICULAR INTERPRETATION WITH 'COMPLICATED TERMS' TO SUIT THOSE UNDER THE LAW COVENANT.


[/b]

Bernimoore,
'JUSTICE(under law);

'DEMANDS,FOR EXAMPLE, JUSTICE UNDER LAW ALSO INCLUDES;EYE FOR AN EYE, IF A CHILD MAKES A VERBAL ABUSE OR REBELS TO HIS PARENTS,HE MUST SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH,BY STONNING.

THAT THE 'ACT' OF EXECUTION MUST BE CARRIED OUT BECAUSE THE CHILD HAS BROKEN A CODED LAW JUSTICE HAS BEEN DONE TO THE CODED LAW.'

So you want me to believe that the Justice that Jesus was requesting from the Pharisees in this case was the 'EYE for an EYE' justice as welll as stoning of children that rebel against their parents?
Yet he spoke on these very two examples you spoke about and what is to be done.
If he was referring to the 'justice' of OT, why did he not allow the adulterous woman to be stoned?

2. MERCY(under law); ONE OF THE DEMANDS IS THAT WHEN YOU HARVEST YOUR FARM OR FIELD,YOU ARE BOUND TO LEAVE LEFT OVERS FOR THE POOR, FAILURE TO DO THAT, 'YOUR OBSERVATION OF HARVEST WILL NOT BE ACCEPTABLE TO GOD' SO, YOUR HARVEST IS IN FUTILITY BECAUSE YOU HAVE FAILED TO SHOW MERCY.

lev 23:22;
"When you harvest the grain in your land, don't harvest the grain in the corners of your fields or gather what is left after you're finished. Leave it for poor people and foreigners. I am the LORD your God."

It is hilarious when you try t explain 'Mercy (under the law). From the scripture that you mentioned, I would have thought you would have used that to define giving to the poor.

Micah 6:8: He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
You actually want me to believe this was 'under the law' mercy?
So before Jesus died, people showed 'under the law' mercy but now we are to show 'under grace' mercy.

3. FAITH;ALSO DEMANDS full obedience and not doubting God.

God's promise to Abraham included a promise that He would give them the land of Canaan, but that promise was conditional upon their faith and obedience to Him. The consequence of their disobedience was the annihilation of northern Israel.
So from what you posted above, you are telling me that there is 'under the law' faith and 'under grace' faith?
Therefore, full obedience to God and not doubting him was 'obligation of the law' and was therefore 'done away with' when Christ died?

You say all this just because you cannot give God ten percent?
Mehn!, I am speechless.

@Bernimoore,
Did you actually read my entire post to goshen? And the best you could pick out was this?

However, I will pick the below:

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

DOES Mathew 23:23(above) BUTRESS YOUR POINT THAT TITHE APPLY TO CHRISTIANS?  CAPITAL NO, WHY?

JESUS IS STRESSING THE 'OBLIGATION THAT IS ATTACHED TO THE LAW' also echoed by paul;

You said Jesus was stressing the 'obligation attached to the law' right? Ok so are you saying that MERCY, FAITH & JUSTICE are 'obligations attached to the law' only?.

Of all the 'obligations that applied to the law' Jesus says mercy, faith and justice should be done WITHOUT neglecting tithe.

Or you mean when Jesus died he nailed Mercy, Faith & Justice to the cross along with tithe?

Bernimoore, if you confirm to me with scripture that Jesus has done away with mercy, faith and Justice, then you will have enough backing to prove tithe has been done away with, however as long as Jesus said mercy faith and justice should be done along with tithe you cannot seperate them. I await your scriptural backing to that effect.

numo86:


Please compare wit other translations,
I could just help u out, see verse 7 from other translations,

New International Version (©1984) For there are three that testify:
New Living Translation (©2007) So we have these three witnesses--
English Standard Version (©2001) For there are three that testify:
New American Standard Bible (©1995) For there are three that testify:



U dey see am?

@numo86,
please are you questioning the integrity of KJV? Let us get this straight.
All the versions you mentioned are basically newer then KJV, so are you saying the older version (KJV) is wrong while the newer version is right?

Read Romans 8:1-2 of KJV and NIV, let me paste it for you:

[i]Romans 8:1-2 (KJV)
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.[/color][/i]

[color=#000099]Romans 8:1-2 (NIV)
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death.

Did you notice that NIV does not have 'who walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit?' as seen in KJV?

goshen360:

This is the KEY to understand Matthew 23 vs 23. Tithe teachers had taken verse 23 out of context.

Matthew 23:1-3

v1. Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples

v2. "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. (N.I.V)

v2. "The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the law of Moses. (NLT)

v2. Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: (KJV)

v3. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. (NIV)

v3. So practice and obey whatever they tell you, but don't follow their example. For they don't practice what they teach (NLT)

v3. All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. (KJV)

v4. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. (NIV)

Then read verse 23 in context.

Jesus was recognizing ordained authority after the law of moses because he was still under the law during his days. Notice he told his disciples and the crowd, "DO NOT DO WHAT THEY DO" verse 3.

VERY CLEAR AND SIMPLE, IF THE PHARISEES AND TEACHERS OF THE LAW PAY TITHES, IN VERSE 23, JESUS WOULD BE SAYING TO HIS DISCIPLE NOT TO PAY TITHE AS IN VERSE 3.

Am out of here but might come back if need be. SHALOM !

Hello @goshen,
I can see you picked from different versions of the bible but I will use KJV.
I would advise that you read Matthew 23:23 again in context:

You quoted verse 1-4 but verse 4 said, they tie heavy burdens and put it on men's shoulders without lifting a finger to bear it.
Are they the ones that placed a 'heavy load' of tithe on the people? Is tithe now a a 'heavy load', how come they too are 'bearing' it?
Do you think the works, that the people should nof follow, mentioned here was tithing?

Now let us dissect verse 23:
23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Are you from that scripture telling me that the woe Christ placed on them was for tithing or for omitting the weighthier parts of the law?
If it was for tithing, why did he add that they should be merciful and faithful without leaving tithing undone? So you mean woe to them too even if they have mercy and are faithful?

You quoted a scripture that in Mark 12:14 that the pharisees said that Jesus was a man of integrity who taught the way of truth. Are you saying, therefore, that when Jesus told them not to leave tithing undone, he wasn't teaching them truth?

Let us leave Matthew 23:23 and go to Luke 11:
See to scripture verses Christ said to the Pharisees:

Luke 11:47:39-42
39 Then the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed and wickedness. 40 Foolish ones! Did not He who made the outside make the inside also? 41 But rather give alms of such things as you have; then indeed all things are clean to you.

42 “But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Let me ask this question. Are you ok with the scripture where Christ said in verse 41, 'but rather give alms of such things as you have;'?

Whatever answer you give will define whether or not you see verse 42 as ok.


Besides,
when people say that he was only telling the Pharisees to tithe, I need to ask a question, were all of the people not also meant to tithe? Was tithing only meant for the Pharisees? Did he condemn their tithing or the things they failed to do?

Many of us say we are born-again today, did anyone check to see where the word 'born-again' came from?

John 3:1-7
1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.  6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

I conclude with this, Jesus spoke to the Pharisee on being born-again, is there any other account of where Jesus spoke like this?
Are you saying therefore that only Pharisees are meant to be born again, since in this account it was Jesus and the Pharisee speaking?
If you have no problem with Jesus speaking words of truth to the Pharisee here, why then do you do you have an issue when Jesus told the same Pharisees not to neglect tithing?

@goshen, you have alot of questions to answer. I hope this is enough to bring you back.

(EDITED)

@garyarnold,
now this get hilarious.
You had no comeback on what was debunked yet you say I didn't understand you?
After Hebrews 7, expose along with the various scriptures you could not counter their plain explanations, you tell me I'm brainwashed?

Rather you started rhetorics, and belting out your academic achievements while brandishing a title you requested for and
you gimme a long list of individuals who oppose tithing which makes you very confident yet all I showed you was the Word and yet you say I act like just like a church-goer?
You have really confirmed alot. Ofcourse, your fellow anti-tithe posters see nothing wrong (but will let hell lose if those in favour of tithe said just an inch of what you said), rather they praise you. (Laughs)

This shows alot. Let's let it be then.

@garyarnold,
oh you did not say tithe is taxation but you quoted someone that did? So what should we make of that? You quoted someone for the fun of it or for a purpose? please, I know where you were heading to.

On Heb 7, you feel happy since you have a long list of Theologians that support your belief. I am happy for you. Yet when those in support of tithing just make a mention of an individual who explained tithe to them, those against tithe'll say they are brainwashed and cannot understand scripture themselves.
Ok, I respect that.

Heb 7 has alot of indepth meaning. I got the inspiration of the understanding by the Holy Spirit. I don't need theologians to support me.

@Bernimoor,
the forum is open for all to learn from so I am open to learn and I've learnt and learning.

I wonder what your issue is with me. I'v stated my belief of tithing based on the scripture. You guys have a problem with it & made a big issue out of it. Maybe you should let go of the bias and look at what I'm posting and my answers. I'm surprised you say I am 'afraid'. Of what or who?

Where on this thread have you seen me try to suck up to people who share my belief in tithing? Or quote away from the scripture.

Please just show me one.
So where do you get the idea that I'm trying to be careful.

As per saying I'm riduculing people, I really wonder?
Did I call anyone 'brain-washed' or 'not following GODs commands?', or that their giving is an 'insult' to GOD, or they should 'keep shut' and a host of other things?
Please, you are barking up the wrong tree.

@garyarnold,
thanks for the brief.
I am not surprised you decided to call me 'brain-washed' now after the expose on Hebrews 7.
You just realised you had nothing to argue on again. You have picked various scriptures that after discussion, and you had nothing to counter you quickly jumped to another again.
Ofcourse, with all that has transpired here, it's obvious for all to see how you've been quoting the scripture to suit what you want to hear.
Now you suddenly feel sorry for the 'brainwashed' lots who you've told to 'keep shut' and 'lose the word' or 'get over it'.

Seriously, is this how you teach?
In your haste to win arguments you lost sight of the whole essence of giving.
Abraham's tithing was not the end of his giving, he gave God his son, helped strangers while the Israelites tithed, gave all manner of offering & firstfruits, helped the needy, the fatherless, stranger, gave donations for building projects etc.
It's funny when you say people think when they have tithed, that's all. They were not taught right and they have no scripture, both in OT & NT showing them that once they tithe, they have fulfilled giving. They have no excuse & I know you can confirm same.



Get an independent eye to view your comments against the bible and the responses, you've been getting.
If you have been teaching based on what you've been saying here:

1. Abraham gave a tenth he didn't tithe.
2. Abraham gave a one-off tenth to Melchizedek based on custom
3. Loot wasn't for the victor
4. Tithe is like tax, it's taxation. (Ofcourse, I went back to check. You said in one place that tithe was like tax, then you said it's taxation. And to think I apologised for 'misquoting' you)
5. Abraham gave a tenth while Melchizedek received a tithe as the Levites in his loins were tithing in preparation for the law

It's not a surprise how you've been confusing people. Have we not discussed this and all have been debunked?

Since expounding based on the word of God is now what you call 'brain-washing', so let it be.
I'm glad you give 'far far more than a mere tenth' to God, leave the 'brainwashed' folks  who give tithe and all other giving to God, in faith & honour, in peace.
God bless you too.

@garyarnold,
I can see you have no further comment on Hebrews 7. I'm sure you never saw it in that light. But rather than admit it, you decide to go into rhetorics.
I understand that as a Money & Finance Minister (please is this self-appointed or ordained? Is it in the church or it is just a name you call yourself) who has quoted this same scripture to others, you cannot bear to admit the interpretation of what you are seeing.
You see you cannot fight God's word to suit your choice of words.


In all the scriptures I quoted, it is obvious I am talking about tithe based on the purpose it came about and was instituted in the law. For the support of the God's ministry and those that work full-time in it.

Abraham - to Melchizedek, Priest of the Most High God
The Israelites - to the Levites (who received the Priesthood)
Christians - to those that preach the gospel (Priesthood of Jesus Christ)

In all, these were done as an honour to God.


The first we hear is that Abraham, the father of faith, gave a tenth of all of the spoil which he won in battle. Ofcourse spoil was not limited to food.

The Israelites gave a tithe of all they produced on the land, trees as well of their flocks. Everything we see today was derived from what God gave us of the land.

In Matthew 23;23, Luke 11:42, Jesus said  the weighthier matters of the law should not be bypassed (i.e. mercy, faithfulness, love of God) while not neglecting tithe. Luke 11:42, Matthew 23:23. (In one case, it was recorded that a pharisee tithed on all he owned - Luke 18:12).
He did not castigate the Pharisees on what they tithed on but on what they were doing wrong and he told them not to neglect tithing. SIMPLE


Paul (who himself was doing other work) also said just as the ministers in the temple lived of the temple, in the same way, the Lord ordained those that preach the gospel should live of the gospel. I Cor 9:11-13.
He said it was a right.

Some tithe on gross income, some on net, some on gifts, some on profits, some on all stated. It depends on what they interprete of the bible. 'Tithe on all' is the guide.
Whichever way, do not neglect to tithe. It is simple.



@garyarnold, who claims to give 'far more than mere tenth', obviously has a base to which he used to calculate 'far more than a mere tenth'.
No one is trying to out-do each other, we are giving for the purpose of the gospel.
Therefore, whoever comes here and starts going on and on about why Christians should not tithe (which is a tenth), which is just one of the ways to give, has real issues especially since they claim to give far more.

@garyarnold,
i'm posting on phone hence can't go back to check whether or not I  wrongly quoted you. I apologise.
Tithe= like tax as quoted by @gary

However your dabbling into tithe being similar to tax, you did for a purpose, pls don't feign surprise.

Abraham gave a tenth and Melchizedek received a tithe? Is that the next angle you are coming from again?
LOL.

The levites, still in the womb of Abraham are the ones you are saying  were to be under the law?
Oh, ok you mean, Abraham gave a tenth (no law), while the Levites, still in his womb were under tithing in anticipation of the law?
*Scratches head*

So while Melchizedek received tithes, he was receiving it as a giving from one person and a payment from another?

You are beginning to sound frantic.

@garyarnold, you keep making me laugh.
'Get over it'?
Why does tithing bother you so much. My ten percent start in giving to God is really bothering you yet you give 'far far more than a mere tenth'.

I have not told you whether or not to tithe, I have shown you in scriptures were tithing is valid, why do you keep telling me to 'loose the word or get over it'?

You really need to cool it.

@garyarnold, Heb 7 used 'pay' & 'gave' together.
Heb 7:9 said:

'And as I may so say, Levi also, who received tithes, paid tithes in Abraham'

Since you say Abraham gave a tenth, why is it stated Levi PAID TITHES IN Abraham?
How can someone give yet pay on behalf of another?

Verse 6 says 'But he whose descent is not counted from them received TITHES of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises' (KJV).

Does that scripture not mention Melchizedek receiving TITHES of Abraham?
So are you saying that Abraham paid Tithe or gave tithe now?

Oh I remember you said Tithe=Tax

Are you saying Melchizedek received 'tax' from Abraham?

@garyarnold, KJV of the bible is consistent.

@garyarnold,
It is only you and others that do not tithe that say tithing is wrong to you. Since you decide to see tax and tithe as the same then sorry. They are totally different.
Whether you call it pay or give, It is a duty and you admitted that it was our duty to support the work of God's ministry.

Even in Hebrews 7, 'give' and 'pay' were used interchangeable.  So the wording is not the issue. The issue was that it was not condemned, ok? It is you that has decided to condemn it and even say it is an 'insult' to God.
Well, let's leave the rest for God now since you have become his spokesperson telling us what is an insult and what not.

goshen360:

My brother, It's all about biblical truth and not your own interpretation of the bible. The fact that certain things are recorded doesn't make them a practice for us in this christian age that we live in today. If your words highlighted are true, then celestial church people will be right by taking people to bath in the river or beach and people selling snake or breakthrough oil and mantle will also be right. So my brother, its about sound biblical teachings/doctrines.

"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear". 2 tim. 4:3 (NIV)

@goshen360,
i looked at your post and really I wondered if the only reason why you said the above is because you do not agree with tithing. If any of your fellow brothers who are against tithe had said what I said, would you have responded in same manner? Be candid.

You yourself said:
'SUPPORTED. I, PERSONALLY HAVE STAYED TOO LONG ON THIS MOUNTAIN (TOPIC OF TITHE) AND AM OUT OF THIS FOR NOW. PLEASE FOLLOW YOUR CONVICTION PLEASE FOR THEY THAT ARE LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD ARE THE SONS OF GOD AND TO HIM THAT IS PURE, ALL THINGS ARE PURE. IF YOUR HEART DOESN'T CONDEMN YOU, YOU ARE GOOD.'

Why therefore is it an issue when I say people should follow their convictions especially with biblical back-up? Are you being baised?


I posted scriptures, plainly for all to see on tithe both in OT and NT and the best you could come up with is that it's my interpretation?

You once said in a previous post and I quote 'If Jesus was quiet about this tithing of a thing, why cant we or the men of God just be quiet about this aspect for God sake.'.
If you consider where Jesus said that tithing should not be neglected as 'being silent' on it then I wonder. However, I am sure you do not have any queries on where Jesus was watching people as they gave offering and said the widow gave more than the others.
Are you saying therefore that giving offering is right but giving tithe is wrong? Jesus spoke on both.

May be you should define 'sound biblical teachings/doctrines'?
As per the scripture passage you pasted, it is for all to learn from. So many have gathered teachers to teach them what their itching ears want to hear.

I stand by what I said, follow you convictions especially led by the Holy Spirit through His word. You do not have to agree with me.


It is amazing when people say they are against tithe because neither Jesus nor his disciples gave tithe . May be they can quote where Jesus or any of his disciples gave offering.
It is even more amazing when people claim to give more, far more than a tenth yet have an issue with giving tithe and even make a case against it.

BERNIMOORE:

@garyarnold,

THATS THE SUMMARY (in blue) ALSO YOU FORGOT TO ADD THEIR FREQUENT FRUSTRATING REMARKS IN QUOTES; ''you are getting confused'' ''please give rest to yourself. ''Our discussion on tithe has ended per my previous post to you''.
THEY REACT AFTER THEY HEAR YOU HITTING THE POINT AND EXPOSING THEM.EASY,EASY PLS.

@Bernimoore, I apologise since my remarks have been frustrating you.
You have your convictions and I have mine. I can back up mine with the bible, even if you disagree, so let everyone be persuaded based on the word.

@Finance Minister garyarnold, you have your defence in the Word, I have mine. To each his own.
Probably, we'll have cause to discuss again in other christian matters.
God bless all.

@garyarnold,
who were the army? Where they not part of Israel? Where they not the children of Israel?

Gen 31:3 says:
'And Moses spake unto the people saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, '
continue reading verse 4 and 5.

It would be said that battle was between the children of Israel and the Midianites i.e. Israel vs Midian.
Israel won the battle over the Midianites.
So Israel was the victor! Is that so hard to understand.

I can see you are spoiling for an argument where there isn't and arguing just for the sake of it. I would refrain to be sucked in further. I rest my case with you.

@garyarnold,
I see you are confused.
Were the Israelites not the VICTORS?

How else would each man of Israel have gotten their share if not for dividing it amongst themselves?

The Israelites won the battle and they shared the loot amongst themselves after giving a portion to GOD. The loot was theirs- the victors.

You have proved nothing, sorry, except your confusion.

@garyarnold,
please give rest to yourself. Our discussion on tithe has ended per my previous post to you. I have gotten what I needed.

However, Numbers 31 shows that the men of war of the Israelites won a battle and took the spoils. The prey was shared between the men that went to war and the congregation of Israel.  Num 31:26-27.
The prey were for the entire Israelites and from it, GOD commanded a levy from the half of the men of war and of the half of the rest of the congregation for a heave offering & for the Levites. Num 31:28-30.
Num 31 :49-54 shows where the officers over the men of war gave an oblation to GOD, of their freewill, of the spoils to God for atonement of their souls since they did not lose anyone in the battle.

verse 53 even says 'For the men of war had taken spoil, every man for himself'

So after the levy, the rest of the prey was THE BOOTY OF THE ISRAELITES.
Nowhere did it state the spoil was GODs.
(edited)


I feel sorry for you when you try to fit a scripture to fit your whims.
I am beginning to take your words with a pinch of salt.

@Bernimoore,
in order to slander me, you keep showing how pathetic you are. Seriously.
1. You initially said tithe & tenth were not the same & i showed you Heb 7:2 & Heb 7:6.

2. You said Abraham made a 'mere vow' to GOD and I told you the vow Abraham made was not to take anything from King of Sodom so that the King of Sodom will not say that he made Abraham rich. Gen 14:22-23. It had nothing to do with the tithe.

3. You have now said that I Sam 15 shows that Saul's spoil was for GOD. Did you read I Sam 15:3. GOD did not want any of it. GOD told Saul to destroy EVERYTHING. Is that what you tell me is God's?
Did you read that Saul defied God's command and the people tnok OF the spoil, the best for GOD, verse 21?
They didnt take the whole spoil, they took the best out of it for GOD and GOD was angry with Saul for disobeying him.
That was weak, the spoils are for the victor. I Sam. 30:19-20.

I can see you love to argue blindly and I have nothing further to add this argument since you prefer to remain confused.