@goshen,
This topic has been looked at critically and deeply already. The issue is those aginst tithe will not let it be or see the interpretation as against theirs.
I have asked you some questions up there regarding Heb 7, I Cor. 9 and even the much disputes Matt 23:23.

They are all new testament...answering these will help us know your stand on tithe.

Pastor Kun:

Bros are you in my mind to be able to know my exact position on tithing? I have always made it clear that my grouse against the subject matter is that it is preached today via fraudlently manipulating scriptures to justify it as compulsory for christians. I repeat what I am against is the twisting of God's word by so called christian preachers. If they preach the truth and only encourage believers to do it on a voluntary basis with the caveat that monies collected would be judiciously used as christ would want, then I won't have any problem with it. But you know as well as I do that tithing as it is preached and practised today is unscriptural, it is a pure fraud and you are not honest enough to admit it.

Pastro Kun, you are the one that gave your interpretation of Hebrews 7:18 as abolishing tithe even when it is clearly talking about priesthood change.
I have posted on a thread all the comments from different threads where you said tithing is a scam so I don't have to be in your mind to know what you have posted all over NL.
Have you ever encourage anyone to give tithe on a voluntary basis?
Youi have just said it again that the tithe preached and PRACTISED today is pure fraud...need I say more on what is in your mind?

Pastor Kun:

The problem is not whether people should tithe or not. The real issue is that preachers who claimed to preach the truth about God's word descending so low to twist God's word the justify monetary tithing from income and preaching it as mandatory/compulsory for christians. Whereas no such thing exists in the bible when studied in proper context. Snowwy the real issue is that men that are supposed to be of high integrity and character are fraudulently twisting the word of God for money. If preachers can come out and preach the truth about tithes stating that it is not mandatory for christians but they could do so on an optional basis, a lot of us would not be up in arms against them. What we are fighting is institutionalised fraud in the church and not the act of tithing per se.

@Pastor Kun, your saying that you are not against the act of tithing per se is one of the most amazing things coming from you. I have engaged you time without number on this.
Even when someone comes to explain that the tithe has been something revealed to him, you still castigate calling them names and all. You have never encouraged anyone to tithe if that is his belief based on the scripture.

You are against the act of tithing in the very word and all your posts on NL show it. You just hide behind the fact that some men of God make it a do or die affair. However this is no justification to say tithing is not biblical.

@goshen, it is great to see ones mistakes and be willing to correct it or apologise...something many shy away from.
May we avail ourselves of the grace God has given us in Christ.

On tithing we did not conclude because you were ready to start from the NT scriptures of which I found strange since my bible starts from the OT scriptures. I decided not even bother when you further said you did not even believe in giving offering in church.
If as you said then that we should drop all prejudices or any foreknowledge we had of athe bible, why start from the NT. The bible is a complete book hence we are to start from the very begining to do justice.
You have already started a bible study thread which should avail everyone the opportunity to make inputs, that should suffice, I guess.

goshen360: ^^^
Do you believe Jesus was still under the law when he made that statement you quoted? And after he died and the law is already fulfilled, why are we still trying to keep it? An answer required sir.

@goshen, I must say I am quite amazed at some of the statements you have made recently on tithe.

We have engaged each other once on tithe but you never answered my question.

Since Jesus was under the law when he made that statement, are you saying that all the statements Christ made before His death are void?

In other words, do you mean that mercy, faith, the love of God have been done away with since He said this in conjunction with not leaving tithe undone.
Of all the things Christ castigated the Pharisees of, He never said they should neglect tithing.
Yet he spoke against them concerning them regarding the legality of their keeping the sabbath, of stoning the adultress etc.

He told these same folk to give alms to the needy in Luke 11:41.

Since you claim you are a student of the new testament, what do you have to say about 1 Cor. 9:13-14.

Have you actually read Hebrews 7 in detail. Do you know that your drawing inference that tithe was abolished in Hebrews 7:18 is suspect especiall when Heb.7:13-16 is what was being talked about as being annulled? Moses spake of Priesthood to be done by Levites only and that is the law that was annulled because Christ sprang out of Judah, a priest in the order of Melchizedek (who Himself received tithes from Abraham when there was no law).

Under the law, people had freewill offering they gave as well and even a number of scriptures in the OT quote so that 'the people gave freely and were very happy to give'. Therefore giving in the NT is not some new commanment that was not done already in the OT. Infact giving IN PROPORTION to how you have prospered doesn't mean give what you feel like.
If the people in te OT gave so much, we under grace should give better. Therefore for people who say 'tithe' is a burden really mean they cannot actually give up to a tenth of how God has blessed them. That is the simple truth else they will not come up here to say tithe is a burden.


I am also really amazed at the way you go about saying people are not bible students or saying things like 'sit down let me teach you' or 'you will thank me when you hear the revelation I am going to give you'. You are acting like the very pastors you castigate.
It makes you assume to be infallible or to have all the revelation. I think we should realise people have dfferent revelations and acting like we know all makes us like we are not willing to learn (especially when faced with some aspects of the word they have dwelt on). I myself could be guilty of what I am telling you too. So this is not just directed at you but for us all to draw inferences from.
Cheers.

@goshen,
That is great.
Constant study is required. Thank God for some of these topics that ginger me to study & meditate more.

Ephesians 4:13 (KJV)
 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Well I noticed the topic approach is what has been going on already on NL, though your thread seems devoid of any slander and abuses. I pop in from time to time but will see where I can participate.
Thanks and cheers.

@goshen,
You are very right, we are to study as a scripture can bring about many revelations.

goshen360: @ Snowwy,

Also keep in mind, the law was a school master that had led us to Christ. The grace of Christ is now sufficient for us, not to try to still keep the law. Besides, the law was written for the Jews not we, the gentiles. Our (gentile) New law is written in Christ. Remember Jesus said, a new commandments I give unto you.

We cannot try to keep the law, we keep the law through the grace of Jesus Christ. That's the difference between the law and the prohets period and the grace period.
The law was a school master truly but on Jesus we obey the law of God due to love. The new commandment was hinged on the old. It was basically a summary of the old and when gentiles come to Christ they obey God's laws through the help of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 2:14-15
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;


Romans 2:28-29
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God


Going by what you said, it means the gentiles who come to Christ are to study starting from the gospels only.
Even the bereans (gentiles) studied the scriptures.

goshen360:

What was said of him by the law and prophets are or refers to prophesies concerning him in the Prophet book and in the Law, his types and shadows and things said about him. This is my understanding of that verse and that verse had been fulfilled already even when he came.

@goshen,
As at the time Jesus said He came to fulfil the law and not to abolish it, he was yet to fulfil Isaiah 53:4-6,
8-9, Psalm 68:18 amongst others.

Jesus said he didn't come to destroy the law and the prophets, instead he said he came to fulfill or accomplish it. In other words he came to do it. That's why he continued that no one should stop people from obeying even the least of God's commands. And till heaven and earth pass away, no tittle of God's word will go unfulfilled.
The revelation I got from that therefore is that the only way we can fulfil the law and the prophets is through Jesus. We can never do it on our own and that is why He came.

Romans 13:10 says love is the fulfillment of the law. As everything in the law and prophets is hinged on love, Does this abolish the law? No! The law and the prophets is encapsulated in love of God and our neighbour. The righteous requirement of the law is what we are to fulfil not of the letter (flesh).

Romans 8:3-4 (KJV)
 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

In summary, the above shows that the law was weak THROUGH the flesh and God sent his son to condemn sin in the flesh not to condemn the law.
The righteous requirement of the law what was Jesus fulfilled in us and that is why it is only in Jesus that we can fulfil the law.

goshen360:
Well, maybe we need to do more study but what exactly is your take on this thread? Matthew to John, OT or NT in context, we as bible student now cannot change it though but when we study, we can always have it in mind that Matthew to John is OT or NT, that's what I intend with this thread.
Thank you though.

I will rather leave the gospels as they have been set already in the bible.
All the advice, admonitions, rebuke, commands, preaching, exhortations Jesus gave while on earth is valid today and that is enough for me.
Cheers.

@goshen360,
Based on the link, not all things in the OT has been fuflfilled even after the death of Christ. Many things are yet to be fulfilled even as at now. The author in that link never stated that the old is fulfilled in the new...

Infact, the scriptures says Jesus came to fulfill what was said of him by the law and the prophets, it never said that Jesus came to fulfill the old.
Please study again.

Hebrews 9:

15 ¶ And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Jesus came to redeem us from the transgressions under the first testament and not to redeem us from the laws of the first testament. That was why he did not allow the adulterous woman to be stoned...he saved her from the curse of the law not from doing the law of God which is not to commit adultery and he told her to go and sin no more.
It is only the Holy Spirit that can help us do the will of God and obey His commands effectively, something those under the law couldn't do.

We can study the testaments in light of each other actually, there is that liberty.
I will try and post some scriptures to assist the study later...kinda busy now.

I came across this message and gained from it. It relates to this topic...kindly take time to open the link below and make your own conclusions:

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/covenant.html

Cheers

ok ok
The beloved pastor could collect tithes at all, but can not help anyone.


No.
He wants us to help.
He and his pastor can not, the church either ...



[

undefined

Why can't he help? He gave no reason. He did not say his pastor or the church (which he is a part of) cannot help either.
Did he take a little step further to speak to the woman asking her what she needs?
Why is he saying 'MFM members' should help while he 'passed by' this woman without helping?
Feeling concern from a distance is of no benefit. If he feels she needs help, let him speak to her and ask what she needs...that is a start...

@OP, since you are so concerned about her, what have you done to help her? Have you even talked or asked her what she needs?
Are you not also part of the church?
Have you brought it to the notice of the leadership of the church as well?

I thought that all that is currently ongoing on Nairaland Religion section is already topical studies.
The difference in this new idea I assume is that everyone will be entitled to the interpretation he/she gets by the Spirit and no one tries to force his or her views down the throat of the other. Also name-callings will be banned.
Anything besides this will be of no difference to what is currently obtained. MHO.

Isaiah 61:1-3 (KJV)

1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.


The gospel message is the Kingdom of God, simple!


Luke 4:43 (KJV)
43And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.

Luke 9:60 (KJV)
60Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.


Luke 17:20-21 (KJV)
20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


What is the kingdom of God?
Romans 14:17 (KJV)
17For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

What does this mean? We saints, redeemed by the precious blood of Jesus who gave His life to reconcile us back to the Father and make us adoptive sons and co-hiers with Him, should live the kingdom life starting from here on earth.

^^^^^^^^^
Great advice there.


@OP,
Also, you may want to run it by The E-Helpers Network i.e. Nairaland Charity.

Link: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-802184.0.html

@goshen,
It is obvious to everyone what that scripture means.

', taking wages of them, to do you service'

You are the one that has the issue, trying to define 'taking wages of them' and 'taking wages from them'. I do not know why you want me to explain it.
I would rather you tell me how both differ since you claim to know better.

You can read the scripture in context as well to aid your definition.

@goshen,
You have previous unanswered questions before my last post.

If you were not so worked up, you will have seen that I had no interpretation. I simply posted the scripture there.
Plainly, you just showed that you were fighting the word of God since I made no comment on that.

You initially came up with 'sitting on one scripture' to justify your trying to do away with I Cor 9, despite the fact that the scripture speaks for itself and other scriptures were being quoted.
Now you say 'taking wages of them' simply means support. The very thing you were fighting.

I will advise you step back and take a look at your posts and see how they look even to you.
I respect you want to leave me to my answer as I can see you have nothing more to add.

2 Corinthians 11:7-8

7 Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel freely?

8 I robbed other churches, taking WAGES of them, to do you service.


I am sorry goshen, like I said your initial scripture bore you witness. Pls stop trying to ' muzzle the ox that threadeth the corn.'

goshen360:

You mean pastor should work for church and not get paid? Exactly why we should open the bible to see if they should be paid monthly or something else.

Highlighted in red. The just shall live by faith.

Highlighted in green. Yes, I am a christian, born again and bible student. Open your bible and show us where salary of preachers has biblical backings.

@goshen,
We are ALL to live by faith. Needs will always be there and arise as well, so with or without, monthly pay, we are to live by faith.

goshen360:

Yes. Many things you said above are true to the biblical teachings. Apostles and Jesus received support NOT MONTHLY SALARY and it remains biblical truth. 2. Is a pastor's wage now bone of contention? YES. Nothing of such is backed in the bible. Are you aware that there are people in the body of Christ who are called mainly for giving. I will show it to you if you stay on course.

@goshen, the very scripture you showed backs it up as well as scriptures quoted by other on this thread. 'A labourer is worthy of his hire'.


Just as some as called to show mercy?

Romans 12:7-8

7Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

8Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

Understanding is key here. It seems you are trying to say that giving is a ministry for some as well as showing mercy. So what do the others do?
I thought you were for giving, now you seem to imply such giving are called for only those in the ministry.

JeSoul:

^hmm . . . haven't you kinda answered the question already?

As long as church funds are being discharged appropriately not only is there nothing wrong in paying pastors and other church employees, it is our obligation as the congregation to support them not only financially but spiritually and in other ways as well. Let us not let the abuse of this priviledge by some prevent us from doing what we ought to do.

I think Jesoul just nailed it.

goshen360:

1. I didn't answer the question. The highlighted is part of the bible verses quoted. One verse of scripture doesn't justify a christian practice. From the mouth of two or three witnesses, the truth shall be established. We cannot just sit on one verse of the bible or one chapter and make a teaching out of it. That will not be rightly dividing the word of truth.

2. Highlighted in red. There is nothing wrong in paying pastor but no Apostle received salary neither did Jesus our perfect example.

3. Highlighted in green. I think that is exactly what that bible verse or chapter is talking about.

4. Highlighted in Blue. The good and the bad are all mixed together.

@goshen,
Apostle Paul received support. II Cor. 11:8
We have been told to give double honour to the elders that serve well and other scriptures. I Tim 5:17-18
I do not understand what you mean by 'sit on one verse of scripture'.

The other apostles also received. Even the II Cor 9:4-6 says it all. Acts 4.
Besides, the other disciples also handled all the monies received from the sale of lands/property that the people brought to their feet for distribution to all who needed. It was like communal living.

@goshen,
I understand that there are a lot of stuff going on in churches but why do you not rather focus more or spreading the importance of giving that holding on to things like Pastor's salary.

Have you ever sold land that you have or other heavy investment and brought the funds to be shared to people in need in your church or taken it to a charity if you are not confident with the church handling it? Is that not what you seem to be hammering on.

Seriously I need to ask this question because if a pastor's wage is now a bone of contention, I wonder if all who claim to 'give freely' actually give to help the needy, charities at all.
(Edited)

^^^^^^^^^^
Do you have a better suggestion? By all means share it.

numo86:

@snowy, just d way Yahweh & Jesus are one, so also we christians are one with Jesus, so also a husband is 1 with his wife,but 1 always greater than the other,
Just as Jesus is greater than man, so also Yahweh is greater than Jesus, so also a husband is greater than his wife, they are one in unity but never one in strength & abilities & authority

Ok numo86, I now understand you are not against the oneness but you are speaking about the hierachy within the oneness. Fine then.

@numo, ok i get your point. I thought you were against the oneness. I now understand you were talking of hierachy within them.

@numo86,
I went back to recheck the NIV and noted they had a footnote that there was no record of the father, the Word and the Holy spirit in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century. However, it still does not refute that God, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one. Acts 5:3-4, John 10:29.

However, what do you have to say about Romans 8:1? There was No footnote for that in NIV as against KJV.


(EDITED)

goshen360:

Well, I guess you dont want us to go into that of the pre-mosaic law which Abraham did. But that's ok. We are fellow workers in the vineyard of God but we must be careful what we teach God's people. What Abraham did wasn't a commandment of God and it should be left open and not as teaching as many teachers of tithe does today. Besides, Abraham didn't give his personal properties. Again, Abraham was rich before this tithe of a tithe and we are not told he was rich by tithing. Also, Abraham didn't give tithe, he gave ALL of the spoils without taking anything except what the servants had already eaten. So many things we can deduct from Abraham's account.

Talking about giving. Giving is the nature of God and should be done as free will. This is the new testament order. When people are taught to love God, they will have it naturally to give and freely as every is blessed.

Above all, you are a wonderful brother and tithe or not tithes doesn't keep us away from the love of Christ as we have differences in this aspect.

My e-handshake once again.

@goshen,
if you actually go through the thread, you'll see discussions on the tithe Abraham gave.
Yes Abraham gave tithe just once on war spoils just as the bible records, he met the priest once. It shows alot of His heart towards God just as He could leave his father's land at God's command and even give his Isaac. Alot can be learnt from him.
Abel had that heart too, thats why he gave the firstborn of his flock, against his brother who gave of or some of his crops. Thats why the bible said what it did in Heb. 11:4.
I know Abraham didn't take his portion and he gave reason, (he didn't want the king of Sodom to say he made him rich), not because he was generous about it.
Yes Abraham was rich before and after he tithed.
It was exposed in the mosaic era and the times of the kings & the prophets as well as in the time of Jesus, then referenced by Paul.

Tithing has lots of benefits which I've experienced. Truth is pastor did not have to tell me to tithe. I'ld been tithing and giving alms since my high school days because I knew God's word on them and I'ld always prayed to be able to do more and it's been increasing astronomically.

I have nothing against those that don't tithe or give offering, i've just been amazed at the anger they have at those that do.
There's no way giving is limited to the poor.
The NT fully bears witness to giving to parents, poor, needy, saints and the gospel.
I can see you looked past our seeming differences and still extend a hand of friendship. Let all do according to their hearts so far it's based on God's word. As I forsee this will still be our conclusion.
There are other great things to discuss.
*e-handshake*

Pls send bank details to ssnowwy@yahoo.com

@goshen360,
Yes, I believe so. I believe the father of faith gave tithes in honour to God. The mosaic law exposed it.
I can see you see offering as wrong as well. there will always be a call for offering, it's left to you if you don't want to.
I think you should also know that Jesus delivered us from the curse of the law. Read up Romans 2 and 3.
Giving was the order of the day in the old testament. It did not just start in the NT.
We give to the work of the ministry in different ways, the poor, needy, family etc.
So which of the giving do you do?


@joagbaje, some very strange statements made me respond till this point but I think with all that has been stated so far, let the Holy Spirit take control of the rest.
I was going through the family thread while NL was locked for posting and again saw a really good work of yours for the Obuhs. i can see you are really letting your light shine. God bless you. Another project is in the offing. Guess it's another opportunity for us.

@goshen360,
since you said I didn't hear you wrong then I maintain there's no need for discussion. I read a complete bible and not just a part.
I also assume you are saying nothing in the old testament is applicable for us today.
You talk like 'giving' was coined from the new testament only.
When the Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek, gave his son to GOD, gave to strangers and the Israelites brought all their tithes, offerings of thanks, helped and gave alms to the less priviledged, gave in respect to building the temple, gave to prophets, gave to family etc, what were they doing then?

You are trying to over-spiritualise things.
Even Jesus talked about the 'measure you give'.

If they could give so much in the OT, we have no excuse as the OT beareth witness.

frosbel:

You mean in the 21st century , there are still people supporting tithes and offerings

Wonders will never end

So you mean you are also against giving offering as well? Wonders indeed.

Romans 3:21-22 (KJV)
'21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law & the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference'

Amplified Version
'21 But now the righteousness of God has been revealed independently and altogether apart from the Law, although actually it is attested by the Law and the Prophets,
22 Namely, the righteousness of God which comes by believing with personal trust and confident reliance on Jesus Christ (the Messiah ). [And it is meant] for all who believe. For there is no distinction,'

NIV
'21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,'

Tithing occured pre-law,  during the law and the prophets as well. Many things that Jesus said, the law bore  witness.
Therefore, if I didn't get wrong, if you are telling me that you are neither of the pre-mosaic group or the law  and the prophets group regarding tithing, then I do not think we have much to discuss, as those bare witness to the support of God's ministers as spoken by Paul.

@goshen360,
what versions of the bible do you suggest we use or do we compare?
Are we going to deal with the points you made on the thread you created.
Cheers