MrBible:

Snowwy I always give good opinions it you that has nothing good to offer.

Ok, your opinion like I have mine.



You now spoilt it with this though

MrBible:

@Poster
Another advice is for you to see a marriage or relationship counsellor as pastors are only interested in one thing and that is tithes of salaries coming into their pocket.

We know the only thing you are interested in is not giving tithes. Free world. You think a secular marriage/relationship counseller will not be interested in a fee for his/her advice?

^^^^^^^^
@ Zikky, that is your opinion. If you have anything different from what we have discussed above then provide it. Your allegations are unfounded put beside the scripture.

Zikkyy:

The requirement of tithing was for the Jews. Only the Levitical priest can collect tithe.

Really, so Mechizedek that took tithes was a what? Has that law not been done away with? Heb. 7?


Titihing is giving, offerings is giving, helping the needy is giving. All these are part of giving.

The people were ordered to give by the King based on scripture and they gave cheerfully, God blessed them. Shikena! You and the others can keep being bitter about it, it still does not change the fact that a giver is blessed.

II Chron. 31:4-5
He ordered the people living in Jerusalem to give the portion due the priests and Levites so they could devote themselves to the Law of the LORD. 5 As soon as the order went out, the Israelites generously gave the firstfruits of their grain, new wine, olive oil and honey and all that the fields produced. They brought a great amount, a tithe of everything.

Keep hating on the word of God and say you are criticising Pastors. You are just fooling yourself.
Peace.

@Kunleoshob,
Who ran away? You are very funny but no need to get sucked into arguments with you. It is a waste of time.
I have given evidence based on scriptures but MrBible (who knows all) just talks on and on on human understanding.
It's obvious he lacks proof so let him be.
Everyone is after all entitled to his/her opinion.

My advise is just that don't make statements you cannot substantiate.

@MrBible,
You are yet to respond to my questions o. You keep dodging everytime.
Part of the new testament way of giving is giving offering? Right? You have no issues with it? No. So where is it stated that Tithing is not part of giving since God said he will bless us too?
Please provide scripture where Jesus said we should give offering and not tithe?

So how is tithing only an Old testament way of giving? I have shown you the scripture were they appear together o? Are you saying that tithing is not giving but offering is giving? Are both not part of giving?


You cleverly said that churches where tithes and firstfruits are collected are thieves. So if they collect offerings, they are not thieves?
You are contradicting yourself now.

MrBible:

Snowwy

You are in error,[color=#990000] if you understand the reason Jesus laid down his live for us you'll know that tithing is not for the followers of Christ. Tithing is for the followers of false pastors.[/color]

@MrBible,
So we are back to square one. You see you cannot run.

1. You quoted OT, I quoted OT and NT. What else do you need?

Are you saying Christ died so we will not give 'TITHE' and 'OFFERING'? What about offering? Offering is for the followers of, ?

MrBible:

Azibalua & Snowwy
[size=14pt]The Bible tells us below what tithe is and how tithing is to be practiced. So you tell me why you are not practisiing it the way God has required you to?[/size]

Another thing, you said God requires us to tithe? I thought you once said that it is not a requirement.
Are you now taking back these words?

Look I am not really into the argument stuff, my grouse is that you have criticised this so vehemently that I am trying to understand what you have as back-up to this. Everyone has their persuasion you know.

It seems you have finally decided to answer the question. What took you so long?
So are you now saying that it is the way tithe is preached that you have an issue with not that it is collected?
You have changed course o.

The same bible (which you claim I don't study) talked about the tithe collected every three years and the one for the Levite and the one for the poor, needy etc. In that scripture you quoted it showed the tithe to be eaten every year, and the one to be kept for the Levites, widows etc after 3 years.


Same bible has the scriptures below:

Numbers 18: 21
I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the Tent of Meeting.

II Chron. 31:4-5
He ordered the people living in Jerusalem to give the portion due the priests and Levites so they could devote themselves to the Law of the LORD. 5 As soon as the order went out, the Israelites generously gave the firstfruits of their grain, new wine, olive oil and honey and all that the fields produced. They brought a great amount, a tithe of everything.

II Chron. 31:10-12:
10 and Azariah the chief priest, from the family of Zadok, answered, “Since the people began to bring their contributions to the temple of the LORD, we have had enough to eat and plenty to spare, because the LORD has blessed his people, and this great amount is left over.” 11 Hezekiah gave orders to prepare storerooms in the temple of the LORD, and this was done. 12 Then they faithfully brought in the contributions, tithes and dedicated gifts.

I Corinthians 9:13-14
13 Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

My issue here is that you are contending against what you do not understand.

KunleOshob:

@jo'azibalua'agbaje

Would stop writing thrash? Since when did it become necessary to seek a pastor's consent before going into a relationship? The kind of thrash you pentecostal pastors preach all in a bid to control the smallest details of your congregation's lives. That is what joblessness causes. You better go and find a decent Job.

@Kunleoshob,
Do not derail the thread now. The poster has no issues with seeing her pastor since she fellowships or would fellowship in the church pastored by this Pastor.
She said so herself.
I wonder what ails you with this.
Her going to meet with him does not in anyway show that the pastor is trying to control their lives.
Common, i expect you to be more mature than this.

Even MrBible and musKeeto gave good opinions this time.

@MrBible,
It's not a matter of 'no amount of answers' you give us. You do not have any answer, hence you cannot expect me to believe you.
And since you have no proof, it can be said you are amongst the lying and fake pastors.

As you can see I did not mention any pastor or church here. Except you now refer to the bible as a 'pastor'

@dare2think,
Thank you.



@MrBible,
There is no need for us to beat around the bush.
Please just answer the question.
You are acting exactly the way you potray the pastors act. You are now asked to give proof of your opening post using scriptures only?

You said and I quote:

'This is the reason black Africans are still behind and undeveloped, compared to the western world. Black Africans are good at just allowing others to lie to them and they accept such lies'

If you do not give me concrete reason to believe you, then it can be said that you are no different from those you are judging.

@OP,
Be candid and give only the information that is necessary. Answer his questions matter of factly and be straight to the point.
Also I believe you have been obeying the word of God hence you should not be afraid of anything and the Holy Spirit will help you.
All the best.

@dare2think,
I apologise.

MrBible:

@MeganC

If you understand the meaning of the good news of Jesus you won't be claiming that the tithes you pay is the source of you joy and happiness, it just goes to show that you are still a baby and my message is not for you yet.

Exactly. You are preaching 'your message' and not God's message and this is the very reason why you are judging pastors. Who is lying now or who should we follow? You that gives a message without scriptural backing or the bible that is available for all to see.



@Azibalua,
that was simply what I asked for and the guy started going on and on about the black race.

^^^^^^^^
I can see you have run out of steam.


I am following the word of God clearly stated in the bible and I will keep proving Him as He keeps making me a blessing and a channel of blessing.
It is that Word you have chosen to overlook.
Don't be bitter.

@MrBible,
You claim to know the bible and I have given you a scripture verse to explain. But what do i get, you start beating around the bush.
Was it a Pastor that made that statement?
I take it that you do not have any explanation as you do not want to seem like you are fighting the word of God.
If you say tithing is wrong, that means you say that offering is not ok. Simple,


@dare2think,
I can see that you have no input just like MrBible.


Keep nitpicking the word of God to what suits you. Afterall, you are the ones that have the issues with tithes.

@snthesis,
The disannulment of the law in Hebrew 7, was the law of Levitical Priesthood. read Heb. 7:11.
The law that the people received was the law of Moses.

Heb7:16 shows that Jesus was not made Priest after the law of a carnal commandment that only the Levites had authority to be priests but Christ is made Priest after the power of an endless life. i.e. why scripture says he is a priest after the order of Melchizedek and not after the order of Aaron.

It is this commandment that was annulled.

Jesus was not against tithe as he would have clearly rebuked it, he however said it should not be left undone. (he really did not need to add that if he was against it) In Matt23:23.

The OT shows where it was stated that tithe is Holy to the Lord and should be given to the Levites:

Leviticus 27:30: A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD.
Numbers 18: 21 - I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the Tent of Meeting.

Also, Apostle Paul said in I Corinthians 9:13-14:

13 Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

You can make your conclusion from here yourself.

Please note that you can give tithe and offerings as you purpose in your heart. That scripture does not in anyway negate tithing. We should give it cheerful and in faith as we are doing it unto the Lord.

frosbel:

^^^



Do you read your BIBLE at all

Or are you just a follow follow church goer

What I quoted, was it not from the bible? I do not understand what you mean?
May be you can explain how offering is 'ok' but tithing is a 'false doctrine'.
They afterall appear in the same sentence in Mal 3:8.

MrBible:

Snowwy [size=14pt]In the area of giving offering is fine as it is what comes from your heart to give for God’s work. [/size]

Ok can you explain then based on the word of God in Mal 3:8 (which you seem to hate so much) how offering is ok and tithe is wrong.

'Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings'

I need your candid opinion.

@MrBible,
What about churches where you give offerings? Is there a problem there?

frosbel:

My Diagnosis :


Stop following Christ Embassy, TB Joshua etc etc.

In other words stop following MEN otherwise you are doomed.

Are you fighting a common enemy or you are fighting churches. I really do not understand you.
You gave a full explanation of the 'problem' and a very inconclusive ambiguous diagnosis with NO PRESCRIPTION.
What kind of doctor are you?

You have highlighted the problem, the solution has to be thorough. That is the problem with you critics, you always bring out all the negatives and do not proffer a good solution.

@Mabell,
ssnowwy@yahoo.com.

@Kunle,
That is nice
But too bad about those that felt deceived as I know there is no deception in tithe or seed-sowing as you are persuaded.
Nowhere is it stated in the bible that we should tithe then neglect our family or not help the needy so I just see that as lack of wisdom on their part.
Lots of people do not give a dime in anyway to help the needy or care for their family and do not tithe or sow seeds either so it is not because of that please.


However,
Seed-sowing is very biblical and you can sow to the lives of people, the needy, missionaries, homeless, orphans, church projects, pastors, evangelists etc.
Let them give as they are persuaded in their heart. No amount of Pastor calling for seeds can persuade them except they intend to do that. Many do not give no matter how they are asked so like I said let us not blame it on sweet-mouthed pastors as they abound everywhere.

God will not judge them based on the fault of the Pastor (fake or real), He will say they had a choice.
Just like the devil will not be blamed for the sin of a saint.

KunleOshob:

@snowwy
I am sure you are a witness to the several attempts we have made on this forum to correct false doctrines preached by false MOGs like joagbaje and his cohorts on this forum. I am sure you have witnessed how they delve deeper into their twist the gospel further even in the face of incontrovertible biblical evidence. So of the guys have sold their souls to the devil for a meal ticket, talking to them is a waste of time. The best we can do is to alert the public that these charlatans are the ravenous wolves the scriptures warned us about less they fall victim to these rogues. My conscience as a christian would not be at peace if I just stand by a watch these ravenous wolves destroying the sheep whilst God has given me 'revelation knowledge' that his church is being exploited and violated by these gangsters.

@Kunleoshob,
Everyone is entitled to his or her belief as we all have a choice.
Since you have alerted the public, you needn't make a campaign about it, preach the word, the gospel of Jesus Christ, life to dying souls.
That is more important than making a message out of fake pastors, tithing, false doctrines. It is meant to be an alert like you said.
Do not make that your core message.
I cannot sell Omo to someone by campaigning against Elephant. I will advertise the best of my product.
Give the people the message of Christ and not the evils of the devil only.

We both do not have the same beliefs but there are ways you can pass your message across without name-calling, slander and all. We can expound the scriptures and everyone get insight without me having to swallow your beliefs or you having to take mine hook, line and sinker.
You can post something and I disagree with it and say this is what I believe and everyone is given that respect especially if he/she argues it persuasively.
Learn from me and I from me.
Because we are all different. It will be very hard for us to see things the same way or in the same light as we all have different customs, beliefs, doctrines and all.
May we come to the unity of the faith and the fullness in Christ Jesus.

^^^^^^^
@Earswide,, you never seem to amaze me with your posts. You go at these men like you are doing all the right things and they are wrong. Meanwhile you have forgotten the scripture:


2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Everything has order o. Preach the word first as a true Christian and speak life to people.
You have no word to preach but you are reproving and rebuking (you still have not said why you cannot face these men directly), so based on what word are you doing this.


Please do not be an empty barrel that makes the most noise because what I can see so far is that you lack substance.
I leave you with that and I pray God gives us the grace to save souls and also reign with him in eternity.
God bless you.

KunleOshob:

@snowwy
What you fail to realise is that those of us you label as critics are actually doing a better job of leading others to christ than your so called MOGs who are leading people away from christ via the false doctrines they preach. We wein souls for christ by putting the gospel in it's proper perspective whilst your charlatan MOGs are placing heavy yokes of false tithes and seed sowing on brethen whilst making promises that never come true and people loosing their faith in the process. Do you know how many people have lost their faith and turned to atheism because of these preachers who are peddling the gospel for private gain? Today through the activities of 'critics' brethen are beginning to realise that the problem is not with the gospel but with false preachers who are manipulating it. Thanks to these critics a lot of people's eyes have now opened and they have re-dedicated themselves to christ and his true gospel devoid of the poison your so called MOGs add to it.

Thanks Kunleoshob.
The word of God is true and He knows his own.
Let God be the judge and you have called these men unprintables names on Nairaland, have you taken the time to ask these men where they are getting their doctrine from via meeting them or emailing them?

There is no doubt that there are fake pastors but dwelling on criticising fake pastors and not preaching the gospel is not our assignment. That is my point.
Jesus castigated the Pharisees to their face.  Why are you guys scared to do same i.e. find a way to challenge these men face to face as the bible says?
I really wonder.

You are amongst those that lump all those that go against something you believe in as fake. I tell you that you are wrong because you are throwing out the baby with the bath water. More people would have become atheists by the way you come castigating the church of God so do not pass the buck.

We have had discussions and we now where it ended so there is nothing new you are telling now.
It is however laughable that someone who does not preach the gospel and says 'others do it' but prefers to watch 'uninspiring' programmes by the men he calls 'fake' to find fault, is doing a good work. Is that what Jesus told us to do? Be candid,

As I said the Lord knows those that are his. Since you have a better message, preach it. A message castigating one preacher or the other isn't one.
There is more to holy living than all these bickering.
God help us.

EarsWide:

@Snowwy, you said

Are you trying to guilt me into silence ? 

It wont work I am afraid - my lack of preaching the gospel does not preclude me from calling out the charlatans.

So for example because I do not preach the gospel - I should accept that Jo Agbaje really did raise a dead girl ? Really ??

I am sorry Snowwy - I WILL KEEP CALLING OUT THE CHARLATANS (AND THEIR DEFENDERS)

It's a free forum now. Why would I want to make you feel guilty? Are you beginning to feel guilting?  

It is your choice now.
You seem to prefer to work of a critic (one that Christ never gave you) over preaching the gospel (the great commission) because it is obviously easier for you.
These men are preaching the gospel and winning souls and you are yet to do one of that.

At least Christ said not me, that whatever measure you use to judge will be used for you. It is simple and even worse cause you have put them on a measure yourself.

So since these men are 'fake' to you yet they are still preaching the word and leading souls to Christ, you need to have a great alibi to God to say what you were doing all this while. I can bet you, God will say He never sent you on this your self-called assignment.
Have fun while at it.

EarsWide:

@Snowwy

you saidYou guys cannot help yourselves - you are still trying to justify this charlatan. What do you mean by 'esp those who refuse to leave you alone despite entreaties' ? Why cant we just pray for God's protection ? Why add the destruction bit ?
If you think knowledge is expensive - try ignorance.
How do you think I came to my conclusion about the prosperity gospel - it was by watching a number of these charlatans and seeing the common flaws, cons and tricks in their messages.

Ok, it seems you are yet to come to your conclusion since you are still watching them.

Also, it is not a wonder that you have nothing to offer to edify the brethren since you watch the programs strictly to find faults.

Others are reading the bible and getting inspiration from the Holy Spirit and watch the programs and gain more insight, you are watching it to find fault then come online to criticise.
You have a time-consuming job and it is not in anyway adding value to you.

dare2think:

@ snowwy

I am challenging certain MEN with questionable characters not God.

Really? So who are these men with 'questionable characters' and what channels are you using to question them. At least its biblical to question them directly first you know.


@Frosbel,
We are all men of God. People use different terms for them and these terms might now have become a norm.


However, some people like Earswide seem to think they are only called so because they 'take' tithes and offerings and they are the ones that preach and lead people to Christ and are meant to be the ones to help the needy and be accountable for it, while he was not given the task to preach the word from what he has posted.
So they now take up the sole task to castigate and criticise these men while not doing anything themselves.

Earwide,
You answered the question in the very quote you highlighted. If there is nowhere in your bible where enemies are destroyed (esp those who refuse to leave you alone despite entreaties), then you should have found a way to ask the man of God where the scripture is that one should pray against enemies.


Oh you must have watched it at home, ok send a message to the numbers on the screen or send an email.


I still wonder how you seem to hate these 'charlatans' but you spend all your time watching their programmes and castigating them on nairaland.
It says a lot about you.

Coming online to now start castigating and criticising what you could as well have gotten answers from the source of the statement is what is wrong, ok.
Or are you scared to meet them face to face?

@Frosbel,
So much for not having patience and understanding my response.

dare2think asked me:
What do we do to a pastor that molest the children of the church??

Let him continue while we leave him to God?

What if that child was your Son? what do you do.

Which I answered. Cool down now,

@dare2think,
Jesus has clearly stated what should be done below:

Matthew 18;15-17
15" If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.
16" But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.
17" If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.]

Ofcourse in the case of such abuse, the Pastor and his wife would need to be summoned and rebuked, however the gravity might also involve you telling the pastor to confess to the church. Yes, if that is an option many will not do it anymore.
If he refuses, you notify him that you will announce it yourself (possibly during testimony time or something if you would not have opportunity to take the microphone at another time), so let him chose. That is church my brother.

So the church can decide what next to do or if the authorities can be called in.
I hope this answers your question.

No one ever says you should not challenge if you are convinced by the word but who are you challenging? That is my grouse with a lot of you guys,

@Frosbel,
Loving God and our neighbour is all we need to do like you say.
However, do you know what loving God entails or loving our neighbour?
Jesus narrowed it down to two commandments but a lot springs forth and this is what true christians do today.
Calling people names (when you do not know all information required) does not constitute loving your neighbour, backbiting and slandering does not include loving your neighbour, bearing false witness does not include loving your neighbour.
Loving God entails following his commandments, laws and words and it is a lot o, we need God's grace and mercy.