Pe2000: Have you ever found yourself in a state where, for some time running, you can't seem to pray with zeal and conviction; a state where previous disappointments tears your spiritual enthusiasm into shreds? You probably thought you had faith that could take you through anything, but when a major setback or disappointment comes, you realise that your faith is smaller than a mustard seed. This is where I find myself today. How can I re-jig and put back the spark in my faith?

I have experienced such and I see it as a period of weariness which occurs whenever we look away from Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.

You should note that you are not alone. So many people grew weary in the bible, great men for that matter. Moses, Job, David, John the baptist, Paul etc.

All you need is to come again to the saviour and rest a while (Matthew 11:28-30).

Share your burdens with another trusted person as hearing what other people might have gone through and excelled would lift up your faith and even make you thank God that your adversity was not worse than you thought when compared to others.

You need to encourage yourself in the Lord, meditate on scriptures where God tells you He knows whatever you might have gone through and is there with you and pray.
Accept that all things work together for your good for those hwo are called according to God's purpose. Romans 8:28.


Set your face as a flint and know that God can never put you to shame. (Isaiah 50:7)

Goshen360: Hello Everyone,

God put Adam to "deep" sleep and made Eve out of Adam. God put Christ to "deep" sleep in the form of death and out of Christ came out "Christ-ian, new birth" and that happens when a man becomes BORN AGAIN. When am a man becomes born again, it happens in the spirit of a man. Man is a tripartite being (spirit, soul and body) 1 Thessalonians 5:23. When the new birth takes place, man in the eyes of God is considered born anew and this spirit man need a helper/comforter so as NOT to be alone because God never intended that man to be alone, IT IS NOT GOOD FOR A MAN TO BE ALONE. As it applies to the natural man, so it applies to the spiritual man that is born anew at new birth or at born again. This helper to the this new spirit man at new birth is HOLY SPIRIT.

@Goshen,
Nice revelation.

Though in the part quoted above you said while Adam's deep sleep produced Eve (his help), Jesus's 'deep sleep' produced opportunity for a new man (for whoever believes in him) who now had the need of ANOTHER comforter. Jesus Himself comforted.

John 14:16-18 (KJV)
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you



John 14:26(KJV)
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Guess that is the difference I noted.
But I kinda understand your concept.



The Holy Spirit was always present even in the OT already and usually 'came upon' a man as against in the NT where it 'filled' a man.
What I mean is that in the OT you hear instances of the Spirit of God 'Coming mightily upon' but in the NT you hear of a person 'being filled with the Holy Spirit'.
Anyway, well done.

FXKing2012:

I used to be a tither then I stopped, I just wanna be absolutely certain I'm on the right track.

What made you stop in the first place should have been your decision on whether you were on the right track or not.
Besides you said after all you read on this thread, you had made your decision.
As long as you are fully persuaded in your mind to stop as I said earlier and have all your biblical back-up...no need to fret.
That is your decision and choice.

ATMC: those 2 points of urs r talking of different kingdoms...d kingdom of god which differs from d kingdom of heaven. Jn 3:5 talks about being born of water nd spirit or being bornagain as a prerequisite to entering d kingdom of god which is righteousness, peace nd joy in d holyghost whereas having d heart of a child is a prerequisite for entering d kingdom of heaven... Now concerning d statement in matt 11:11- among all born of women refers to every other person in d world, john is greater than all because he was filled with d holy spirit from d womb but then d least in d kingdom of god, remember is born of water nd d spirit ie born again nd so is greater than john...we were not told dt john was baptized.

Nice post.
There are times when the kingdom of God are used interchangeable as the kingdom of heaven so I do not see that as the issue.

In the gospels, Mark and Luke used kingdom of God often while Matthew used kingdom of heaven frequently.

The definition of the kingdom of God I know, thanks for re-affirming.

I kinda got lost after in your born of the Spirit from the womb being less than the least in God's kingdom while born of water and Spirit being greater sha.

On second thought, there are actually some interesting things to note about Jesus saying that John the baptist was the Elijah expected:


Malachi 4:5-6 (KJV)
5Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse


Luke 1:17
17And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.


[/b]Matthew 11:13-14[/b]
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come

1. Elijah was a fiery prophet as John was fiery

2. Elijah experienced great victory by killing Jezebels, prophets of Baal while John was the messenger in preparation of Jesus Christ and he spoke against Herod marrying his brother's wife

3. Jezebel wanted Elijah dead while Herodias wanted John dead

4. Elijah got discouraged and wanted death and ran away after such a great feat that God had to encourage him,
John was imprisoned and had to ask the Messiah if he was the one sent. (I guess John needed assurance/encouragement as well, why? view below)

5. Elijah was taken away in chariots of fire while John was eventually beheaded.

Possibly John had personal expectations about Jesus. That he would come and deliver him with a forceful revolution or something. His not getting this special treatment just like Elijah was able to escape with chariots of fire, was the reason he might have asked the question.

That could be the reason why Christ said the least in the Kingdom of heaven was greater than John because despite all John (Elijah) had seen and done, he still was unsure of God. The answer Jesus gave the disciples of John to take back to Him might have helped.
Someone else may have another view sha.

Ozegbe:
BTW this dint explain it, infact am now more confuse. How come a man that was sent by God from birth, suddenly begin to doubt?

Since this did not explain it, what was the previous explanation you had on it?

Belief is a choice.

John even bore witness of Jesus in John 1:15 and in the book of John 1 called him the Lamb of God.
Why would he suddenly ask Jesus again if He was the one God sent or another should be expected?
May be because he did not expect to be in jail, or He expected Jesus to save him from death.

That is a question you might be able to answer.

Ozegbe: please somebody should read it and throw more light its kinda confusing me.

Hi Ozegbe,


Matthew 11:11 (KJV)
'Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he'

If you read the whole chapter, you would get more insight on what Jesus was saying.

Who are those the kingdom of heaven is meant for first? There are a host of scriptures but I will pick two:
1. Except you are born of the Spirit and of water, you can in no wise enter the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)
2. Except you are converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven (Matt 18:3-5).

In other words, you have to be converted and believe in Jesus Christ who is the only way to the Kingdom of Heaven.


Now, Jesus said that even though John was greater than anyone who was born of a woman being the one who was the messenger that was sent to usher Him in(Mal. 3:1)and being the Elijah (the great prophet)to come (Matt.11:14), he was lower than the least in the kingdom of heaven because of this question John asked:

Matthew 11:2
2 When John, who was in prison, heard about the deeds of the Messiah, he sent his disciples
3 to ask him, “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?”

John was doubting the very person he came to usher in.

This is an impressive topic and have learnt somethings already...thanks to all the contributors so far.
I think Romans chapter 7 to chapter 8 too has a lot to do in explaining these 3 men.

Waow @goshen, you must show me the end from the beginning today o and post more powerful nuggets for our learning pleasure....Lol.
Good morning, great fellow bible student.

Pastor Kun: @snowwy
So this is were you are hiding, Image123 desperately needs your help on the other tithe thread. Abeg don't abandon him to face ridicule alone.

@Pastor Kun, I see you love attention. You have received your five minutes of attention in which I concluded that it was pointless dicussing this with you, so saying I am 'hiding' is funny.

Image123 who decided to engage you should be fine if he knows the word of God. One doesn't need man's back-up as long as one has God's word.

However for you, I know that you cannot defend anything tithe except you get back-up. As long as you have your fellow anti-tithers by you, that is the time I see you exhibit confidence...if no one backs you up...you disappear.
Coming to call me to 'help' image123 just proved what it seems you do yourself all the time you get stuck on this subject.

Lol.
Pastor Kun...no be today.
Enjoy your thread.

Goshen360: ^^^
Let me just leave it as it is. Don't want to pull you more. Thank you.

The word of the Lord is to be 'left as it is' not trying to pull more from it than what it did not say in the first place.
Thank you too.

Goshen360: @ Snowwy,

I hear you. I will take a leave and study even as am still studying cos it's continuous BUT you dodged my question. My question is do you also through Christ stone your rebellious children to death since you claim to

You should be able to stone your non virgin wife to death or kill your rebellious kids SINCE YOU JUST SAID THROUGH CHRIST YOU/WE CAN FULFIL THE RIGHTEOUS REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW WHICH THE ISRAELITES COULD NOT FULFUL.

Answer the question.

I can see you missed the whole essence of the post.
Rebelious children and non-virgin wives were expected to be stoned in the OT as punishment/judgement.

Jesus came to cancel the handwriting of that ordinance that was against them. He did not come to cancel the law that says children should not be rebellious to their parents or that women should not fornicate...get my drift?

The death that was their judgement was what Christ came to cancel. That was the law of sin and death. He brought in a better hope.

I can also see you carefully removed yourself from the righteous requirements of the law that Christ fulfilled...seems you have not read your bible to that point else you wouldn't remove yourself from that great work Christ came to do. Romans 8:4.

Now that your question is answered, guess its a good night.

Goshen360:

You don start again o. So in Christ or through Christ, you can kill your rebellious son/daughter? Through Christ you can stone your non-virgin wife? Through Christ you should be offering the blood of bulls and goats then for atonement of sin,lol Abi wetin you feel? All offerings ARE TYPES AND SHADOWS FULFILLED IN CHRIST.

@Goshen,
I will advise you take some time dedicated for your sabatical to study what is meant by Christ 'fulfilling the law'.

That is why when you keep hammering that the law is destroyed, it speaks a lot. The very scripture Christ said he fulfilled the law negates a lot of your statements on Christ nailing the law to the cross. Christ nailed the judgement written against us to the cross.

The curse of the law was what Jesus Christ came to destroy- that was the law of sin and death. Also the fact that the works of the law was what justified one in the old testament. Christ only can justify...and our light as Christians will shine when they see our good works.

It took me some personal study to understand it myself thus since you say you are a bible student...pls do the study yourself and get the inspiration yourself.
That way you can understand it better.
Do have a great night.

Goshen360: @ Snowwy,

How are you? Long time. How you come run away from me, your brother naw? e no good o,lol.

Back to topic, how about First-fruit? Since Jesus already fulfilled First-fruit, do we still need to keep it OR why are we still trying to keep it?

Lol,
@Goshen, it was you that took off from our last discussion claiming you intended to go on sabatical only for you to show up on another thread.
I am doing really great by the way and I am sure you too are.
Do take care then...

@OP,
Indeed...the secret revelations in the bible are often unlocked in deep meditation by the express help of the Holy Spirit.
In it actually are the answers to all lifes questions.

@OP,
Please meditate on the below:


Romans 14:1-6 (KJV)(Key verses picked)

 1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

 2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

 3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

 5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

 6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.



From this...the onus is left to you to be fully persuaded on whatever you decide. Eating meat is not wrong neither is eating only herbs...it all depends on what you can 'stomach' and accept.

Abundant and Eternal Life

Pastor Kun: @snowwy
Welcome to the thread I have been expecting you
Yes hebrews 7 clearly abolishes tithing and the levitical priesthood it supported, but when taken into context that it was addressed to Hebrew people that used to tithe as part of their religion it even brings better understanding. What is more instructive is that there were severaristian doctl other epistles written to the non hebrew early christians who were probably not conversant with the hebrew practises. It is quite instructive that none of the gospel writers deemed it fit to mention tithing as a christian religious requirement. Infact we have it on church historical records that tithing was not introduced to Christianity till the sixth century AD by the catholic church even then it was tithes of agricultural produce. The false man made version of monetary tithes was not even practised till as recently as the nineteenth century and this was introduced by american charismatic churches.

@PastorKun,
Thanks for the honour. I just knew you must have raised this with me in mind. Lol

The only people I see actually uncomfortable and unsettled about tithe are those against it rather than those who tithe.

Like I said, irrespective of when tithe was 're-introduced' into christianity...the main thing is that we have it stated clearly in the bible.

All I have shown you is from the bible as against a host of other things you have raised without any biblical backing.

Need I continue therefore since plainly you have claimed tithe is abolished? It means irrespective of what is said, you will say it is abolished.
The question to any eye should be why therefore asking questions on things you say have been 'abolished'?
Why does it unsettle you so much?

You may or may not answer tge salient questions I asked above.
As I said above there is no point continuing this conversation.
Cheers to all.

Biblical honesty is the key @OP, and you are yet to show that.
On the contrary those that tithe believe the importance of why God constituted it and this is done in appreciation of the blessings of God.
Abraham, whose faith was reckoned as righteousness gave a tenth of the spoil which were legally his to the priest, Melchisedek, he met while on his way from the victory of battle.

The commandment of God in Numbers 18 emphasized tithe. Malachai 3:10 God spoke about it, Jesus said it should not be left undone and Paul said the Lord had commanded those that preach the gospel to live of the gospel just like the ministers of old.

Now who laid the statutes, commandments and judgements to be followed in Deuteronomy 12 through to Deut.
14. Did you notice these statues, commandments and judgements also had all the laws of not eating certain animals, laws of forgiving debts at a certain time of the years etc.

Please since you posted this article, show us where afterwards, we see people giving the tithes to the poor and eating their tithe in the bible?
Don't forget they didn't eat just their tithe...they ate their freewill offering, firstfruits, vows etc as well. In your study after this scriptures, the tithes that you see mentioned were for who?

The tithes that was commanded by God was referenced in the NT as well even I cor. 9 & Hebrew 7. All the tithe was given to the ministers of old.
That is what we are talking about.

If present day preachers tithe to the churches of other preachers they have received spiritual seed from then I assume they are following I Cor 9:11 as no man is an island of spiritual knowledge.

The tithe is for those whose primary duty is service and work of the gospel...no man takes all the tithe to himself...even the ministers of old shared it amongst themselves as they were very many, both those that stayed at the altar and that served in the temple (the whole levitical priesthood). They individually had their personal portion.

If it is wrong for the church to ask people to bring things they have to give to the poor, widows etc, why do we have charity homes doing same of which you have no issues with.
We are to give to the needy, giving to welfare schemes should not stop you from giving personally as well.
Besides, even the welfare schemes also have procedures they follow to give to the needy as well...they don't just give any tom, dick and harry.



Before you ask any further questions after answering the questions above, DO YOU BELIEVE TITHE WAS ABOLISHED per HEB 7:18? Especially noting now that you have not brought up tithe being abolished after the expose @goshen and I had recently.

This will aid me to understand whether to continue this conversation or not.






@goshen, hmmmm, though you were taking leave from NL based on our last discussions for more study. You even said you would respond only to me on the last questions you asked.
Lol...the lure was too strong abi?

@goshen,
That is great. Got possible answers as well. Infact not far fetched. However, it's nicer you asked and answered.
Take care then and all the best in your studies.

^^^^^
Galatians 5:19-21 (KJV)

19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Logic Mind:

what is this snowwy?
you, (not me), believe in heaven and god and would love to convert me to your belief because that is what your gospel requires of you as a soldier of christ.
i can tell you that i'm tempted to be converted however i have a few things that borther me and am only seeking clarification from those that profess to know.

your answers might make sense to members of your congregation but to a layman like me, it just sounds gibberish. maybe that's you people call "speaking in tongues" but with all due respect, my question were simple enough and a simpler answer would have been sufficient.

from what i can decipher from your responses, it is impossible for me to reach this heaven of yours except i believe in god, which means, as logicboy has pointed out, that none of my ancestors would be there. I am still at a loss as to what i will gain from your heaven when the very people whose suffering, endurance and hardwork made my existence possible, are burning in hell fire for ever, and ever, and ever, and ever...and ever, and ever.

please help me understand. may the holy spirit guide you.

Your question of heaven showed like you believed in heaven and not God. Nice that you are telling me that the Holy Spirit will guide me. Lol. God is really working on you.

You already understand the respomses since you have gained that you cannot get to heaven unless you believe in the ALmighty God who has a Son Jesus Christ.

Your ancestors who have died before Jesus came or who did not hear of Jesus will be judged by the works of their hands and their conscience.


Romans 2:14-16 (KJV)

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Even people who did not know the law knew when they were doing bad or good and their conscience was the 'police'.

However for those who hear of Jesus and reject Him, that is another matter o.

@Enigma,
Do not jump the gun....I was not quoting Abraham. However for your benefit, the spoils of war is the benefit and possession of the victor but that is by the way.
I said Jesus was talking here, he gave the example, please try to relax and here questions well.

Anyways, you can go look for it and also know that there are many ways you give to God as @emofine said.

You mentined clap offering, worship offering and offering of services and all you just did shows that it is the heart that matters....and you Give as Jesus said in faith....the central theme Jesus mentioned was ....GIVE...

That is the point I am talking about.
Anyway, there is a case of where money was given as part of offering too to God in the OT, it was actualled called 'money' not even called shekel or anything. It was plainly stated as money.
You can go look for it as well.

My concluding statement is GIVE...tithe, offering, services, alms, gifts, your heart body and soul to GOD. Let us not get stuck in the letter of the word. It is by faith in God.
Have a nice day!

@emofine,You are right.

@Enigma,
The scripture you provided initially is not new....we are talking about the Mosaic times in this case....do not tell me that it was only from the time of Jesus you could pick offering as money...Common...because you are just telling me also (something that you guys have always had issues with) that you now accept Abraham's tithe as OK since it is in the OT as well. That was a classic example of giving ALL and it was acceptable....please check the times of Jesus just as you did, he talked about a case of someone who gave tithe of ALL of ones possessions as well.

Nice.
However I am talking about the time of Moses. Afterall we hear of offering from way back.
Because even in this same time you have provided above there is a record of someone who gave tithes of all He possessed ( I know you know that money is a possession) as well.

@emofine,
I believe in giving offering of any possession of mine I have been blessed of God with so like you say it is not about the money....it is about giving of what you have that God blessed you with, money, land, and any other possession.

We have records of tithing of all and all one possesses in the bible actually.


However, since offering is required today it will be nice to get a quote or quotes in the Old testament in which money was used as offering (rather than agric produce) to worship the Lord and thank Him.


Anyone?

^^^^
I would advise you begin a new thread since your question does not relate to this thread.
Cheers.

Isn't it ironic that you believe in heaven that you have never seen yet you refuse to believe in God whose kingdom is heaven.

Please how did you even come about your belief in heaven in the first place?

goshen360: @ Snowwy,

I didn't keep quiet deliberately but come to conclusion that, it seems that you too are bent on your own interpretation when when it is clear that verse 12 says as the priesthood changed, the laws too changed. So I decided to just rest on this issue. You have made some statements that seems to me as if you are bent on what you believe about tithe and not ready to accept another view. I have tithed many times in the past, as i come to know more as you also know, i don't believe in tithe anymore. Not because i don't want to give but we CANNOT FULFILL BIBLICAL TITHING. Meaning, they are crops and animals and if we have to convert to money, then we must add 20% to make it tithable. So I have come to conclusion to just give and remove the law of "certain" percentage attached to tithing and just give from my heart, sacrificially, generously, cheerfully and as the Lord lays in my heart. This is my conclusion.

Heb 7:18 explains itself of the annulment of the old commandment, the law. So, you believe in tithing, keep doing it. I don't believe in tithing anymore but giving, i will keep doing it. None of us is God going to put in hell for not tithing or giving but we do what we do by the conviction of the Holy Spirit. When a discussion comes, of which i try to stay off tithe topics this days on NL, i will still say what i know and understand and you can also say your understanding. I drop my teaching on tithe i was going to do and as you said, just allow everyone to go on his or her conviction, however, when any discussion arise on tithing here on NL, then i will contribute wisely. YOU MAKE ONE OF THE BEST PEOPLE I EVER MET HERE ON NL AND I AM GRATEFUL TO GOD FOR BRING PEOPLE LIKE YOU MY WAY. God bless you.

Again, am doing a study and trying to find an answer to a certain kweshion from my bible study. I don't know if you have knowledge about it or can answer it. If you are interested, I can ask you. Just wanna know first before i ask you. It's like the kweshion is a bit hard anyway. lol.

Waiting on you sir.

@goshen, Your posts have been punctuated by a lot of self-interpreted and self added words (like telling me that Abrahams tithe was abolished by the Levitical tithe, or the tithe was a primary law that established the Levitical priesthood-NOT a single scripture backing). It tells me a lot actually about how you interprete.

I have even noticed besides that after I explained some scriptures to you when you gave yours you did not comment further. It was you that wanted to show me some biblical truths that I did not know about and sorry all this has not changed anything infact it has only reinforced my views of those against giving tithe.
All the scriptures they quote against tithe actually are for tithe and not against it.

You have also basically told me that between the perfection of Levitical Priesthood or 'perfection' of tithe...tithe was the one disannulled (as the commandment going before) for its unprofitableness and weakness rather than the Levitical Priesthoods. (Edited)

If after all the explanations in this thread cumulating to Hebrews, you still believe that tithe was disannulled in Hebrews 7:18 meanwhile the law that it was talking about was the law of the carnal commandment going before which I quoted specifically for you in the OT then there is no further need to try to explain to you.

I am only bent on the interpretation of the Word through the Spirit and with scriptural backing. Not making some spurious comments without a leg to stand on.(Edited)

I did not respond to you so you could start giving tithe...I only wanted to hear out the biblical 'truths' on tithe you had so go on in your beliefs and I in mine. However you have not shown one verse in the NT that was against tithe. (edited)
Let us put this to rest.


As per the question you want to ask on your study...well if you won't turn around to say I am bent on my interpretation...LOL...let us hear it afterall we get to learn and see the need to study more on this 'hard' question.

@goshen360,
Your not responding speaks volumes. Please let us 'close' on Heb 7:18.