₦airaland Forum

shdemidemi: its a wishful prayer.its not upto you for her soul to rest in peace. If your prayer is aligned with Gods will, then it will come to past.

Seriously? Did you hear yourself? Wishful prayer! Yet you tell me to say it.

Hail Mary, full of grace

shdemidemi: Pray her soul rest in peace cos she is dead.i hope u move on from that now.

Exactly why I'm asking the question. If she is dead, how will my prayer affect her resting in peace?

ajufinz: The place of this Holy woman is man made, i bet she has no idea wat idol her memory has become.
The Bible has in no way instructed the Followers of Christ to honor, worship or revere her as we do. I pray God in His Mercy will shine the light on this matter for the world to see.

About two thousand years after, and you believe the light of God in the matter is still waiting for your prayer. It's been shining brightly until some people decided to search in the dark.

Boomark: The Holy spirit is the spirit of truth.

What you have to understand from 2thess 2:15 is:

Since the teaching about Christ priesthood according to Hebrew is not found in the letter to the thessalonians then they will be taught by the word of the mouth. The same goes for other teachings which are written but not found in thessalonians.

Once the Holy spirit reveals the truth to them, they write it down for reference and teaching purposes. They don't carry it in their head/memory. John was told to write his own down, Rev 1:19.

Please which one came first, the teachings to the Thessalonians, Hebrews, etc by word of mouth or the teachings by letters.

shdemidemi: Stop the deviation and say what you want to say. wish or prayer,does it really matter. Isn't it my wish that I pray about.
The issue here is she is not worthy of mediating for anyone.

It does matter because you have to be right in order to correct another. Do not run away from what you started. So I should pray that Mary should RIP, for what purpose?

Boomark: This catholic "Word of the Mouth" doctrine(lawlessness) has been standing on falsehood and deceit. I will tear it down for truth to stand before catholics who seek the truth.

Common sense will tell us that
1 You can't compare the separate volumes of the book Romans, Corinthians, Hebrew to thessalonians cos thessalonians have fewer words.

2 A lot of things in the books mentioned cannot be found in thessalonians.

1Cor 4:6 says:
"...do not go beyond the things that are written,..."

See how it started and why we have different denomination- catholic, anglican, jw, Pentecostal, etc.
1Cor 1:10-12
12 what i mean is this, that each one of you says: "i belong to Paul," "but i to Apollo," "but i to Cephas," "but i to Christ."

1Cor 3:12-22
Hence let no one be boasting in men;...whether Paul or Apollos or cephas....

Then
1Cor 4:6
Now, brothers,..."do not go beyond the things that are written," in other that you may not be puffed up individually in favour of th one against the other.

So those who are puffed up by their Pope or pastors, those holding unto the word of mouth we don't know where it was manufactured should go and read what is written.

There is no how you can't see what the apostles taught in Matthew, mark, acts, Corinthians, Hebrew etc.

Brethren, the doctrine of word of the mouth brings division and lawlessness. So it cannot stand as truth.

So after all these bla bla bla, all you could arrive at is that 2thess2:15

""So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter".

is not true. Ok na, I guess the Holy Spirit is watching o.

shdemidemi: Is that the issue..wishing the soul of a dead person peace shouldn't be a strange occurrence.

So it's now a wish and not a prayer again abi? You need to be sure of what you're saying.

shdemidemi: Worshiping/praying or using Mary has a mediator for anything is wrong. People should know this by now. The only prayer she should be getting is RIP . Even after given birth to christ, if she did not believe in Christ she would not make heaven. She is not worthy of worship even with the virtue of her Given birth to our Lord.

Please why should she get that prayer "RIP", for what purpose? Kindly explain your reason.

Boomark: James 5:14
English Standard Version (ESV)
14 Is anyone among you sick? Let
him call for the elders of the church,
and let them pray over him,
anointing him with oil in the name
of the Lord.

Col 4:3
meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word....

It is either a man prays for himself or he prays for another and our Lord Jesus will mediate. Do you think they don't know that the prayer of a sinless Angel will be much more effective? But there is nothing like that. God wants to see your faith in him not that of a perfect spirit.

Angels pray and make requests to God and he answer them. So now show us where an Angel has pray on behalf of men. This is what you believe in.

So now we understand that if another prays for you, then he prays;and our lord Jesus will mediate. Fine

Again I call you to clear things up. On one hand you say the prayer of an Angel is more effective, and yet you say "but there is nothing like that".

Meanwhile what do you say about this:

Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah,... Zech1:12. This is a prayer by an angel for men isn't it?

Boomark: That your "fellow servant" is not like you. He is not as sinful as you and i. He is serving God in a different capacity as a spirit. God wants to hear the prayer of a sinful MAN who is not reluctant to come and ask Him for anything. Tell a MAN to pray for you because God is interested in the prayers of men. The apostles knew these things which was inspired by the holy spirit and told you to do the same. Jesus is the mediator between God and MAN(not Angels).

Now we know that God heareth not sinners...Jn9:31
The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.Jam5:17

The more righteous the Saint,the more effective the prayer.

Richieboyn: Why u de worry urself with Bookmark na? Kai... Plz leave him alone. Dm say 'Silence is d best answer to a mumu'. If u continuing arguing with him, He'll drag u down to his level and beat u wit experience.

abi

Boomark: 1 Corinthians 4:6
New International Version
Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.

Do you now see the falsehood in what catholic church teach you. They hide under the word of mouth tradition to perpetuate lawlessness.

If you don't see Christian tradition in thessalonians, you will see it written in Corinthians or galatians, Hebrew, acts, Jude, etc. The whole truth and all you need was given to the apostles.

Catholics should stop deceiving themselves and people.

hehehe in Ubenedictus style, "And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. King James Version.
Take a look at the bolded and know that Paul is not contradicting himself...for the worship of God, 2thess2:15 still stands. "So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Boomark: That your "fellow servant" is not like you. He is not as sinful as you and i. He is serving God in a different capacity as a spirit. God wants to hear the prayer of a sinful MAN who is not reluctant to come and ask Him for anything. Tell a MAN to pray for you because God is interested in the prayers of men. The apostles knew these things which was inspired by the holy spirit and told you to do the same. Jesus is the mediator between God and MAN (not Angels).

Do reconcile these in bold, let me know what you're talking about, i.e, Why should I tell a man to pray for me when Jesus is the mediator between God and Man. Secondly do angels pray? If yes, does God not want to hear their prayers?

martinseme: People should be aware that in judgement ignorance shall not be accepted as an excuse. Those who honour ,venerated ,and unconsciously worship any being in the spiritual realm and physical realm, apart from God the father who is also the son and holy spirit ,are putting themselves in danger of being cast to eternal torment in hell. All the prophets and saints including mary are all holy servants of God who worshiped and lived their life in fear and trembling until they transcended in death to heaven to continue to serve God and not one of them openly spoke out to be revered by anyone for they know their holiness is just by the grace of God alone and all to His glory alone.BECAREFUL you learned ones and pull out from sin against your God. All honour , worship ,glory and thanks giving belongs to Him alone.He still remains the unchanging fiery jealous God who shares his glory with no man or any creature.

You who judge others while ignorant of what they do, beware!!! BE CAREFUL you unlearned ones...and read 2Pet3:16.

bizmahn: i mean how can a mortal beget immortal or a perishable creature create an eternal abiding creator.This is great error.It is wrong to venerate or deify ordinary mortal vessels that God used.He can use anybody.He even used Cyrus a pegan king in the bible to rebuild Jerusalem.Search ur bible.

Hmmm,the above has indeed got me thinking of the ark of the covenant and the veneration given to this "Ordinary Vessel", oh, so much that someone had to die, for touching it without permission. 2Sam 6:6

Totus Tuus.

Boomark: You are wrong because you are doing what is wrong. Pray to God through Jesus. Jesus is the only way to God. Angels are your fellow servants.

So I am wrong because I am asking my "fellow servant" to pray to God for me?

rotas: Catholics have been deeply rooted in occult. Jesuit,Knight of columbus,freemason.i know d secrets of roman catholic. ur freemason logo are everywhere. not only catholics anyway.Jehovah witnesses and seventh day adventist leaders are members of d new world order.:freemason....cain.he that hath an ear let him hear.

Rotas are you serious? Is it just these three groups? Please enlighten us more lest we make mistake

Boomark: Are we now looking for meaning of words or how to worship God in spirit and in truth?

We 1st identified the saints(eg Angels). Next is to know if we should pray to them.

This is the lead we should follow in other not to digress:

CERTAINLY no one told you to pray to Angels. If you are doing that you are wrong.

Am I wrong because no one told me to do that?

Boomark: I cannot be tricked like that. We are not on the Holy spirit as intercessor. We are discussing SAINTS. No body is running away at this point.

Now we know that Angels are saints also. So i want to know who commanded you to pray to Angels or to tell them to pray for you. This includes Mary.

I'm not trying to trick you in any way, you actually brought in the issue of the Holy spirit into play. take a look at my post

Syncan: Again you're writing with certainty,Imagine the bold and coloring of the word "No". Let me remind you of how sure you were a while ago and yet you were wrong.Compare what you wrote some time ago as shown below, and the one you wrote later as seen above.

Before (2nd quote): Not Angels...Very sure
After(1st quote):Are Angels...Very Sure

Do find out what the adjective "ministering" stands for...to help you, I believe you've heard of ministries in the religious circle, do find out what functions the "ministers" perform to the people.

Bro,You need to tell me why you quoted the above.

As per your expectation....I need to know when the subject of your accusation took place, it won't be difficult if you're sure it is true.

And you responded thus:

Boomark: CERTAINLY no one told you to pray to Angels. If you are doing that you are wrong.

I know human ministers (messengers) are called Angels according to revelations. Also Jesus and John the Baptist were called Angels, malachi 3:1.

Rom 8:26-27 is just to show you who the perfect spirit intercessor is. Not Mary, Judas or any other spirit being. You don't pray to them because they have nothing to add or remove to your prayers. Besides, praying to them is very wrong because God gave no such commandment.

It is only the Holy spirit that brings our prayers to an acceptable standard to God.

Now you see, I'm only following your lead. I needed you to tell me if you understand the functions of ministers so we can proceed.

Boomark: I thought you should have commented on what i said about 2Peter 3:16? It was about deluded people. Learn from my humility and HONESTY, that is how you show the light in you to the world.

The devil knows the bible more than you. He can show you anything you want to know in 1 second. But he is DELUDED and the truth is not in him. DELUDED people are those that have SEEN AND HEARD the truth but have chosen to stick with lies.

Look at what happened when he tempted Jesus. He never accepted that Jesus was right but went on to the next quote. If not for one thing, he would have tagged Jesus' quote...SENTIMENTS.

Really? It is that humility that I wanted to see, it was that honesty that I needed to be visible, but you kept pointing at the other person and I failed to notice it. Just like it happened in the Bible, though the pharisee was humble enough to approach God in prayer,his pointing at the publican clouded this virtue of his. LK18:9-14

Enigma: ^^ I already commented on your comprehension earlier.

hahaha, I remember telling you why I find it hard to comprehend which you of course did not refute.

Now perhaps, I should also tell you to mind your memory as well; 'papal infallibility' was one of the things I pointed out to you earlier as a nonsensical human construct.

Exactly why I went ahead to enlighten you, you do not condemn what you don't know about.

Dr.Scott Hahn is still alive and does not need anyone else to authenticate his claims. He continues to deliver lectures. "Rome sweet home" is a contemporary testimony of a living witness to God's ability to direct a humble soul who seek him in Truth and in Spirit. However, just one thing separates Dr.Scott from a lot of those who are still where he used to be, and that is how he responded to this command..."Now you've listened to his voice, harden not your heart..." Ps 95:8, Heb 3:15.

Enigma: ^^^ And in those capacities both the "pope" and "the ordinary magisterium" are erm well fallible --- even on matters of biblical doctrine.

Shikena.

Hmm, that means you actually believe in Papal Infallibility in some capacities. I'm sure you've been enlightened.

Enigma: ^^^ I don't think you are capable; since you do not even understand it.

Ok,Agreed that I'm incapable of understanding illogicality.

Further the simple point is lost on you that if the Roman Catholic Church claims "infallibility" on only a small range of things or teachings, it is then fallible on things/teachings outside that range.

Hahaha, as if the church ever claim to be infallible in who you should vote as the next Nigerian president. Please go back to that site and read it carefully, that's why I called your attention to the true meaning of Papal infallibility in the Catholic church.

Enigma: ^^^ And what infallibillity have I claimed for myself?

Aha, do I really need to explain to you what your claims in https://www.nairaland.com/1229310/infallibility-christian-church-simple-approach really means?

Enigma: Meanwhile if a group changes a doctrine or teaching then it says it was not infallible --- at least in respect of its earlier position! And it does not matter that the earlier position was not 'defined dogmatically'!

And as Limbo was mentioned earlier, here is the then Cardinal Ratzinger (present 'Pope Emeritus' Benedict XVI) as quoted on Limbo.

(God and the World, Ignatius Press, 2002, p. 401)

[quote author= The Catholic Encyclopaedia]Explanation of papal infallibility

The Vatican Council has defined as "a divinely revealed dogma" that "the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra — that is, when in the exercise of his office as pastor and teacher of all Christians he defines, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, a doctrine of faith or morals to be held by the whole Church — is, by reason of the Divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer wished His Church to be endowed in defining doctrines of faith and morals; and consequently that such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are irreformable of their own nature (ex sese) and not by reason of the Church's consent" (Densinger no. 1839 — old no. 1680). For the correct understanding of this definition it is to be noted that:

1)what is claimed for the pope is infallibility merely, not impeccability or inspiration (see above under I).
2)the infallibility claimed for the pope is the same in its nature, scope, and extent as that which the Church as a whole possesses; his ex cathedra teaching does not have to be ratified by the Church's in order to be infallible.
3)infallibility is not attributed to every doctrinal act of the pope, but only to his ex cathedra teaching; and the conditions required for ex cathedra teaching are mentioned in the Vatican decree:
a)The pontiff must teach in his public and official capacity as pastor and doctor of all Christians, not merely in his private capacity as a theologian, preacher or allocutionist, nor in his capacity as a temporal prince or as a mere ordinary of the Diocese of Rome. It must be clear that he speaks as spiritual head of the Church universal.
b)Then it is only when, in this capacity, he teaches some doctrine of faith or morals that he is infallible (see below, IV).
c)Further it must be sufficiently evident that he intends to teach with all the fullness and finality of his supreme Apostolic authority, in other words that he wishes to determine some point of doctrine in an absolutely final and irrevocable way, or to define it in the technical sense (see DEFINITION). These are well-recognized formulas by means of which the defining intention may be manifested.
d)Finally for an ex cathedra decision it must be clear that the pope intends to bind the whole Church. To demand internal assent from all the faithful to his teaching under pain of incurring spiritual shipwreck (naufragium fidei) according to the expression used by Pius IX in defining the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin. Theoretically, this intention might be made sufficiently clear in a papal decision which is addressed only to a particular Church; but in present day conditions, when it is so easy to communicate with the most distant parts of the earth and to secure a literally universal promulgation of papal acts, the presumption is that unless the pope formally addresses the whole Church in the recognized official way, he does not intend his doctrinal teaching to be held by all the faithful as ex cathedra and infallible.

It should be observed in conclusion that papal infallibility is a personal and incommunicable charisma, which is not shared by any pontifical tribunal. It was promised directly to Peter, and to each of Peter's successors in the primacy, but not as a prerogative the exercise of which could be delegated to others. Hence doctrinal decisions or instructions issued by the Roman congregations, even when approved by the pope in the ordinary way, have no claim to be considered infallible. To be infallible they must be issued by the pope himself in his own name according to the conditions already mentioned as requisite for ex cathedra teaching. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen[/quote]What infallibility means for the pope is less than what you claim for yourself.

Enigma: ^^^ Do not rush to judgment! Take care to examine what a poster is saying. Learn to recognise that some posters know what they are talking about.

You may also benefit from reading the thread below on the "Infallibility" of the "Church of Christ".

https://www.nairaland.com/1229310/infallibility-christian-church-simple-approach

I will allow you enjoy that your thread in peace and keep reassuring yourself. Meanwhile I wonder what you mean by my rush to judgement. You tried to say that a church teaching is wrong by using their own document, and i simply pointed out that they may not be that daft for such to be so obvious to you. Your next post actually showed i made sense.

Enigma: Thus, once we "carefully distinguish" "the deposit of faith itself", the Roman Catholic church is fallible on every other thing. Q.E.D.

Could you state the Catholic Church claim on Infallibility?

Enigma: A propos the statement earlier that even the Roman Catholic Church tacitly recognises that it is not really infallible:

Para 6 www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

Christ summons the Church to continual reformation as she sojourns here on earth. The Church is always in need of this, in so far as she is an institution of men here on earth. Thus if, in various times and circumstances, there have been deficiencies in moral conduct or in church discipline, or even in the way that church teaching has been formulated - to be carefully distinguished from the deposit of faith itself - these can and should be set right at the opportune moment.

Do not rush to conclusions when reading such documents, remember those who composed it are not unlearned. The part in bold means a lot if you fully comprehend what infallibility teaching is all about.

Pygru: [b]Contradictions & Flip-Flops

The WT Society claims to be Jehovah's organization and God's only channel of spiritual instruction for today.
It stresses that the Bible is an "organizational book" and cannot be understood by individuals no matter how sincere they are.
But how can we trust our eternal destiny to an organization that during its brief time in existence has accumulated such a woeful history of doctrinal contradictions and flip-flops? Consider the following examples of ever-changing Watchtower theology.

In 1975 the WTB&TS taught that the man who sows the seed in the parable of the mustard seed (Matthew 13) is Satan.
Later that same year the WT Society taught that thissower was Jesus.

A similar incident occurred in 1978, when theWTB&TS identified the "Alpha and Omega" of Revelation 22:12-13 as Jehovah (that is, God the Father), and then five weeks later taught these verses referred to Jesus.

The Watchtower Society's failure to correctly interpret the Bible is most clearly seen in theirdoctrinal flip-flops. First they teach position A,then they change to position B, claiming God has given them "new light." Later on, however, they revert back to their old teaching (position A) and in some cases change once again to position B. Here are some examples.

Resurrection of the Men of Sodom

1879 - They will be resurrected.

1952 - They will not be resurrected.

1965 - They will be resurrected.

1988 - They will not be resurrected.

The 'Lord' in Romans 10:12-16

1903 - 'Lord' refers to Jesus.

1940 - 'Lord' refers to Jehovah.

1978 - 'Lord' refers to Jesus.

1980 - 'Lord' refers to Jehovah.

'Higher Powers' of Romans 13:1

1916 - 'Higher powers' refers to governments.

1943 - 'Higher powers' refers to Jehovah God& Jesus Christ.

1964 - 'Higher powers' refers to governments.[/b]

Now you've got me confused.

honeychild: Why is it that whenever anyone wants to say anything about Jehovah's Witnesses they always go back to these Russell and Rutherford issues? Why can't anyone walk into a kingdom hall today and find something genuine to criticize?

If I want to criticize the Catholic church all I have to do is take a picture of the catholic next door praying before his shrine to Mary. If I wanted to criticize the Pentecostal next door, all I have to do is make a recording of his Die! die! die! all my enemies die! prayers.

I'd like to hear something concrete about witnesses teaching and doctrines, not history.

Seriously? Did you just start from page 3 or what? So do we say it's a gigantic structure built on a shaky foundation? And you think those your criticisms are more valid than these on JW eh?

Let's take it that you've not heard, if you hear and it is wrong, what next?

Boomark: it is not written in the bible that the bible is the sole authority. But every Christian should know that the "Word Of God" is sole authority that have. Do you have other sources you get authority from?

The "word of God" yes as declared by the church, because the Holy scripture itself calls the Church "The pillar and foundation of truth". 1Tim3:15.

The word of God is found in:
(1)Holy Traditions which are transmitted in two modes; 2Thess2:15

(a)written(scriptures) -----2Tim 3:16
(b)verbal(Preachings,Practices) .... 2Thess2:15

(2)Teachings of the Magisterium (Elders with authority)....Acts 15

Segeggs: @italo and co. 2Timothy 3:16
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God".

Indeed I was expecting to see "Only Scripure..." no one is arguing about "All scripture"