₦airaland Forum

italo:
1. Compare scripture with scripture and you'll see that Paul was actually saying that they received the Holy Spirit when they believed...bla bla

2. You lack the Spirit of knowledge and understanding. You don't have the Holy Spirit. That's why you interpreted the verse like that...bla bla

3. I have already answered this question. Go back to what I said bla bla...

4. There is a difference between "receiving the Holy Spirit" and "having the spirit". When a person believes he/she bla bla rubbish...!

Choose one!

My belle o.

THE WEIGHT OF THE HOLY MASS
(From the Catholic Society of Evangelists
Newsletter, August, 1999)
The following TRUE STORY was related to Sr.
M. Veronica Murphy by an elderly nun who
heard it from the lips of the late Reverend
Father Stanislaus SS.CC


One day many years ago, in a little town in
Luxembourg, a Captain of the Forest Guards
was in deep conversation with the butcher
when an elderly woman entered the shop. The
butcher broke off the conversation to ask the
old woman what she wanted. She had come to
beg for a little meat but had no money.
The Captain was amused at the woman and
the butcher. 'Only a little meat, but how much
are you going to give her?', he wondered.
'I am sorry I have no money but I'll hear Mass
for you, ' the woman told the butcher. Both the
butcher and the Captain were indifferent about
religion, so they at once began to scoff at the
old woman's idea.
'All right then,' said the butcher. 'You go and
hear Mass for me and when you come back I'll
give you as much as the Mass is worth'.
The woman left the shop and returned later.
She approached the counter and the butcher
said. 'All right then we'll see.'
He took a slip of paper and wrote on it 'I heard
a Mass for you.'
He placed the paper on the scales and a tiny
bone on the other side, but nothing happened.
Next he placed a piece of meat instead of the
bone, but still the paper proved heavier.
Both men were beginning to feel ashamed of
their mockery but continued their game. A large
piece of meat was placed on the balance, but
still the paper held its own. The butcher,
exasperated, examined the scales but found
they were alright.
'What do you want my good woman? Must I
give you a whole leg of mutton?'
At this he placed the leg of mutton on the
balance, but the paper outweighed the meat. A
larger piece of meat was put on, but again the
weight remained on the side of the paper. This
so impressed the butcher that he was
converted and promised to give the woman her
daily ration of meat.
As for the Captain, he left the shop a changed
man and became an ardent lover of daily Mass.
Two of his sons became priests, one a Jesuit &
the other a Father of the Sacred Heart.
Father Stanislaus finished the story by saying,
'I am from the Religious of the Sacred Heart &
the Captain was my father.
'From this incident the Captain became a daily
Mass attendant & his children were trained to
follow his example.
Later, when his sons became priests, he
advised them to say Mass well every day and
never miss the Sacrifice of the Mass through
any fault of their own.
Remember too that 'a Holy Mass a day keeps
the Devil away'.


God bless you all.

Barnabaseloka:
There is a difference b/w the Holy Spirit coming into one's life as a result of being born again, and one being FILLED with the Holy Spirit (baptism of the Holy Spirit). When one is born again, God sends the Holy Spirit into the life of the person. Nevertheless one needs to be filled with the Holy Spirit so that he can work for God and walk with God effectively. Already anyone who believed had the Holy Spirit in him, but the apostles laid hands on believers so that they would be filled with the Holy Spirit. One of the evidence of this is speaking in toungues.

Did you even read that passage? Acts19:2

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as
heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
He asked them if the received and not filled with the Holy Spirit when they believed. So I ask you again, if they were born again when they believed, how come they didn't receive the Holy Spirit?

Scholar8200:
This was all Peter had said :

Acts 10:34-43
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. 36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all) 37 that word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judæa, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 40 him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; [/b]41 not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43 [b]To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

This much they heard and it led them to true faith which God saw and blessed them!

This much was all that was recorded he told them in his visit. But verse 44 made it clear that he had hadly said these before the Holy Spirit fell on them
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

And like I pointed out earlier, Peter confirmed this 10:44 when he spoke in 11:15-17. Peter was very clear with regards to when the Holy Spirit came on them " As I began to speak...". Again note that in verse 17 he differentiated them at this point, from "...us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ". And this was why peter decided immediately to baptize them without further talks. For God had Chosen them to be saved.

Scholar8200:
Kindly read the reference quoted again:

Acts 15:8,9

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 [size=14pt]and [/size]put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

They were not only regenerated (saved) they were also Baptised with the Spirit:

Acts 10:46
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

Note that before this time, an angel had told Cornelius to seek for Peter who will tell him what to do to be saved meaning Cornelius was not saved before that time but as they heard the Gospel and believed with their hearts, God saw it fit to grant them a double blessing; note the word and in Acts 15:8

Hahahaha you are indeed trying. Listen to Peter's account on Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
As he began to speak....he had barely started speaking when this took place, They were just even starting to hear the word not to talk of believing in it, as a matter of fact Peter made the clear differentiation in vs 17.
Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

So was it that Peter could not withstand God about? Have acts 10:47 in mind.

brocab:
You don't practice it when one is baptised at Child birth, baptised is for the remission of sins. And Children at a certain age as Jesus had said, are sinless. So if you were baptised at birth tell me, how and when did you believe' and what were you baptised into, since you were sinless?

Jesus never said little children are "sinless". He came to die for them too. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".

Anyway, Without beating about the bush, do you mind giving me the number of people in Cornelius household, the jailer's household and lydia's household. Please include their various ages and the scripture passage showing that the minors there were excluded.

Scholar8200:
While Peter was preaching the Gospel to Cornelius, the Spirit of God came upon Cornelius and those gathered. This happened not because they were baptised before they started but because God saw that they had believed with the heart (as Romans 10:9 shows). Theirs happened because God from Whom all blessings come knew their heart. Here is what Peter had to say:

Acts 15:8,9

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 and put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.


It was after all these that water baptism followed; their hearts had already been purified. Why? they Believed!

The Holy Spirit that came upon them, is it the one of born of the spirit or the one of baptism of the spirit?

Barnabaseloka:
Acts 19:4 Then Paul said, John indeed baptized with a baptism of REPENTANCE, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is on Christ Jesus.
5. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
I say again that they were believers b/c they believed the gospel of Jesus (vs. 1). Here we see two baptisms-John's baptism and the baptism commanded by Jesus.

1. Being that they were believers, they had been saved, not by John's baptism but b/c they believed in Jesus.
2. Having believed and been saved, they had to go through baptism in the way Jesus commanded it.
3. Paul then baptized them in the name of the Lord Jesus before they became filled with the Holy Spirit.

My question was if they were born again, why were they not with the Holy Spirit? See what you said below:

This showed that they were born
again b/c they have believed in Jesus .

brocab:
I like it the way you all preach, on believing first then baptism, but you don't practice it.

Do you mind telling me where we don't practice it?

Pchinak:
Keep running round and round. Considering the bold, remind me at what point did cornelius household experience their own event.

Exactly where I would have gone next.

preetyb:
Faith comes first before baptism. Faith is believing. U cant be baptize if you dnt believe in baptism. Nevertheless we are saved by grace. Many may have faith but may not be save if the grace is not there for them to please God.

I cannot fault you at all. What it means is that at the point of your baptism, the required faith is present, such that when you get baptised all is fulfilled. However a faith that does not lead you to baptism is dead, it is not the faith of the apostles, that faith cannot help you.

Barnabaseloka:
See what Acts 19:2 says: he said to them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you BELIEVED? This showed that they were born again b/c they have believed in Jesus. You misunderstand me. I said that water baptism can take place before one is filled with the Holy Spirit, or one can be filled with the Holy Spirit before water baptism. But one MUST be born again (repent and believe in Jesus) before the two above will take place.

I did not eliminate water and the Holy Spirit. The word of God, which symbolizes 'water' is the gospel one hears as a sinner, repents and believes in Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the one who convicts the sinner of his sins as he hears the word of God. These two work in the life of the sinner to bring him to the point of being born again, before water baptism takes place.

Interesting @ bold. We know that, when a person is born again,the Holy Spirit takes up residence in that person’s life ( 1 Corinthians 6:19 ). If a person does not have the Holy Spirit, then he does not belong to Christ ( Romans 8:9 ). So why is it that these men in Ephesus did not have the Holy Spirit,
when you say they are born again already?

Barnabaseloka:
Note: One can be baptized with water before being filled with the Holy Spirit or vice versa. Nevertheless, one MUST be saved (born again) before any of the two above takes place.

In Acts 16:30-32, the jailer and his household heard the word of God and believed on the Lord Jesus. This showed that they were saved, i:e born again by the word of God they heard, before they were baptized with water in Vs.33.

Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word
47. Can anyone forbid water that these should not be baptised who have received the HolySpirit just as we have?
48. And he commanded them to be baptised in the name of the Lord...
Here we can see that they did not say a word with their mouths. They only believed in their hearts and they became filled with the Holy Spirit, even before water baptism. We know that the Holy Spirit is meant for believers in Christ. Why would one who had not been saved from his sin, as a result of not being baptized with water, be filled with the Holy Spirit?

All i want you to understand is that one becomes born again (saved), which takes place spiritually as a result of (through) the word of God one hears and believes and the Holy Spirit. This is what John 3:5 means.

Note that by the bold, you successfully eliminated both water and the Holy Spirit from Jn 3:5. Well done.

Meanwhile, as a follow up see the below:

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
19:7 And all the men were about twelve.


The people Paul met in this passage, at what point were they born again?

At what point was the ethiopian Eunuch saved, at what point was cornelius and his household saved, at what point was lydia and her household saved?

Scholar8200:
Kindly see John 4:2
2 Though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples—
Sorry for interfering

Saul did not stone Stephen, but he supervised it, how does that exonerate Saul from the stoning of Stephen. Isn't it going to be off point for someone to be arguing that Saul did not kill Stephen?

italo:
So Jesus taught the apostles to baptize with water but he never told them to stop it, that it wasn't necessary.

He left the job for you.

The thing is just so tiresome. Jesus said its water and spirit....they now say no, its word and spirit.

Philip taught the ethiopian eunuch that its water and went ahead to use water in acts 8....they say its because the ethiopian eunuch was a babe (as if any convert is an adult in the way already)


Peter knowing the importance of the water, insisted on it after the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10....They say he used his discretion.


Paul used water on lydia and the others in Acts 16...They have not said anything on it yet.

I don't know why they are afraid of water.

MuttleyLaff:
Jesus at one time allowed the apostles to carry out water baptisms, He however, personally never water baptised anyone

He did, like for example, in Mark 16:14-16
but you do know what John the Baptist relating to all this, said in Matthew 3:11, Luke 3:16 and Mark 1:8 respectively

He left whatever labour of love work there is, for all of us

Are you serious at the bold? What kind of baptism were the followers of John complaining about here :

John 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

MuttleyLaff:
Syncan steady on!
What have I to gain with lying, be insincere or dishonest?

Let's do this the bite-size way
What is another word for baptise and baptism?
Are baptise and baptism exclusively used in relation to water and for water only?
Can one be baptised with anything else than water?
Can one have a baptism of anything else than water?
What kind of water is Jesus referring to in John 7:38?
Syncan are you familiar with John 7:37-39 (i.e. particularly the instructive and revealing bit in verse 39)

I have reproduced two translations below of John 7:37-39, for you

Jesus Promises Living Water
³⁷On the last day, the climax of the festival, Jesus stood and shouted to the crowds, “Anyone who is thirsty may come to me!
³⁸Anyone who believes in me may come and drink! For the Scriptures declare, ‘Rivers of living water will flow from his heart.’”
³⁹(When he said “living water,” he was speaking of the Spirit, who would be given to everyone believing in him. But the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus had not yet entered into his glory.)

Living Water
³⁷Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.
³⁸"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"
³⁹But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Oga, the fact that Jesus took bread at the last supper and say "this is my body" does not mean any time you see bread you call it Jesus body. Most times bread is simply bread. Those passages I posted are showing what the apostles understood and practiced as Jn3:15. They took water to be water. Meanwhile this is what you said below:

I have noticed that God usually allows things to happen (e.g. the literal water baptism, tithing etc) until when the real deal turns up.The new renders the old obsolete, but understandably die-hards will stick to the old and God doesnt mind that.

Now do you mind telling me when or what year/era water baptism became obsolete, since the apostles knew and practised only water baptism as recorded in scripture.

Barnabaseloka:
Bro. Did you read my post carefully? You might have read it in a haste to pick out errors just as you have done. No one has denied the fact that baptism after one has believed in Christ is done with physical water, or did you not read the beginning part of my write-up? If you continue like this you will only get a biased or contradictory knowledge of the scriptures.

I made you know that it was not anywhere you see the word 'water' in the Scripture that it meant 'physical' water as in the case of baptism. Water can also be used to symbolize the 'Holy Spirit' as in John 7:37-39 and the 'WORD of God' as in 1 Pet.1:23, which are the two 'instruments' or 'means' by which one is born again in John 3:5. I made you understand that Jesus did not talk of giving people 'physical' water to drink but 'spiritual' water in John 4:13-14. What you succeeded in doing was not to understand what I have written but to talk pointless. It takes one to do a background study of some passages of the Scripture, under the power of the Holy Spirit to understand them.

I can see that you brood over what I wrote in the thread about 'Mary being the mother of God' but that is the truth. You don't need bringing up the issue here for it is irrelevant to the topic discussed. You surely know where to go if you want us to further discuss the issue. Know that everyone does not have the same understanding of the Scripture- some have got higher understanding than the others about a particular topic. One can increase his understanding of the scriptures by STUDYING them by the help of the Holy Spirit, and not by reading the bible like novels or newspapers or journals which will give one superficial meaning of them. When the truth stares you in the face, take away pride and accept it.

I read not only this post but all your posts here, that's how I knew you already brought in the "mother of God" thread here before made allusion to it . There is no need bringing in the use of water as allegories when talking about baptism in the first place, for the apostles showed that it was literal by their actions.

Ubenedictus:
that is what I call spiritualising away the plain meaning of scripture.

They are alledging to see metaphor where there is non.

It is a beautiful tactic used in manipulating people and render discussions useless. Jesus says be born of water and the spirit, the apostles were baptising with water, but the new Christians are happy to spiritualise away the plain meaning and tell us it is "baptism by word".

Its indeed the height of insincerity, Jesus said water and spirit, the apostles understood it as water and spirit, the early Christians understood it to be water and spirit, but end time "evangelist" Barnabaseloka and muttleyLaff acting out 2pet.3:15 now sees "Word of God" where others had seen water. "Baptism by word" indeed.

Barnabaseloka:
It amazes me how you have concluded that anywhere one sees water in the bible, it means physical water. The passages you quoted are undoubtedly talking of 'physical' water.

Muttleylaff was trying to make you understand that it was not everywhere water was written in the bible that it meant physical water. That was why he quoted John 7:38.

Bur, let us take a look at John 4:13-14 before John 7:37-39.
13. Jesus answered and said to her, Whoever drinks of this water (physical water from the well) will thirst again.
14. But whoever drinks of the water (spiritual water) that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. To you, was Jesus talking about giving people physical water? Let us see the meaning of the 'water' that Jesus talked about.
John 7:37-39
37. ....... If anyone thirsts, let him come and drink.
38. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
39. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT, whom those believing in Him would receive, for the Holy Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified.
We can see clearly here that 'water' spoken of signified the Holy Spirit and not physical water.

John 3:5 Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Jesus was explaining the 'means or instruments' by which one will be born again.
1 Pet.1:23 Being BORN AGAIN not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, BY (through) the WORD of GOD which lives and abides forever.

It is only through water (the WORD of GOD) and the Holy Spirit that one becomes BORN AGAIN. No one becomes born again through physical water b/c to be born again is a spiritual affair, leading to eternal life. It happens spiritually through the WORD of GOD (water) that one hears and believes and through the Holy Spirit. Both the WORD of GOD (water) and the Holy Spirit are involved in the cleansing and in the regenerating work in one's life.

If the Spirit signified 'water' as we see in John 7:38-39, how come 'water' and 'the Spirit' who signified 'water' were written together in John 3:5? Learn to strike a balance to your understanding of the Scripture. Do not make a general conclusion with or hold onto some passages that will otherwise contradict other passages.

You particularly are an interesting fellow...you know what peter should have said but didnt say, you whose mother ceases to be your mother when you stop calling her mom... you say a lot at a time, too much talking drives you off point. The bold is what is important to the subject. Since the apostles understood Jn3:5 water as physical water as shown in those passages, when did the meaning change in the context of baptism. Imagine what philip must have told the ethiopian eunuch along the way about Jn3:5, that made him exclaim on citing water in acts 8. Imagine how important water event was; that made peter insist on it after the manifestation of the Holy Spirit on the people in acts 10. They held it as a very important requirement for those who are to be saved. Nothing suggests that physical water was ever removed. Maybe you need to re-evangelize peter, paul, philip and the rest.

MuttleyLaff:
Excuse my language
but you've probably guessed that I dont give a Foxtrot-Uniform-Charlie-Kilo about what type of water are in those passages,
as my stance on water baptism is no secret.
Do it, if you're compelled or feel the need to
but if you dont, please do not lose sleep over it. It isnt a do-or-die fanaticism

I just love it when people pull out the heresy card and play it
Something must have rattled and got them fidgety to do that

Nota bene, I am very particular and more concerned about John 3:5 and John 7:8
Do you agree both verses havev nothing whatsoever to dfo with physical or literal water

Another set of Unchristian rants saying nothing. Is it that you were programmed with those two passages or what? If you read my first post you should be in sober reflection not ranting here. I post it again below for you.

Syncan:
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and
of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the
kingdom of God. Jn.3:5
I have read someone saying Jesus did not mean water, this is a strange teaching even to the understanding of the apostles. Or how else will someone explain the waters of the following baptism passages?
1. Water found on the way, in Acts 8: 36. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
2. Water still called for by peter even after their receiving the Holy Spirit, in Acts 10:47. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
3. Water associated with river, in Acts 16:13-15. And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted .... And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira...And when she was baptized, and her household....
4. Water used for washing, in Acts 16:46 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
And to think "Christians" did not rebuke him, but everyone was busy attacking Italo, who alone pointed this out is alarming. Or do you all agree it wasn't water in those passages too

.

MuttleyLaff:
Still baffles me how others just jump both feet in to this thread.
This has been a civil and mature back and forth so far, but someone thinks "everyone has been busy attacking Italo"

If pushed and continually shoved like this, I can blow wide open this water baptism thing
How were all those baptisms carried?
Were they full baptism as in full immersion in water?
Are were each or individual water baptisms carried out by the Apostles done?
On the day of pentecost that 300 were baptised, where, which place and how was this done?
Considering the time of day, how long did it take to baptise those 300?

Jesus did not mean physical or literal water in John 3:5, just He did not mean the same "hydatos" in John 7:38 is not physical or literal water

John 7:38
Anyone who believes in me may come and drink!
For the Scriptures declare, 'Rivers of living water will flow from his heart.'"

bla bla bla bla, Your rants does not solve any of you heresy. Before you blow yourself open, Pls what type of water are in those passages of baptism as posted by me?

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and
of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the
kingdom of God. Jn.3:5

I have read someone saying Jesus did not mean water, this is a strange teaching even to the understanding of the apostles. Or how else will someone explain the waters of the following baptism passages?

1. Water found on the way, in Acts 8: 36. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

2. Water still called for by peter even after their receiving the Holy Spirit, in Acts 10:47. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

3. Water associated with river, in Acts 16:13-15. And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted .... And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira...And when she was baptized, and her household....

4. Water used for washing, in Acts 16:46 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

And to think "Christians" did not rebuke him, but everyone was busy attacking Italo, who alone pointed this out is alarming. Or do you all agree it wasn't water in those passages too

jnrbayano:
It will take a very courageous child to do that.

Whatever made a child of 12 to be in that dilemma comes from above, and from there will the courage come. Many won't even blink before doing as they were told.

Anas09:
Anyone who is still indoubt as to what the catholic church is, is either ignorant or decieved.
The Catholic Church is very strong organised tool in the hands of Satan to stop the spread of christianity. Look at europe today, there's no christianity because of CC. To succeed in their scheme they raised Islam to stop christianity in Asia while they faced Europe and the entire world as they knew it then.
BUT, the gate of hell shall not previal against the church. Persecute us, kill us. The blood of Christians is seed that will germinate in the homes of Sultans, emirs, and every strong opposer of the gospel.

( Ex 23:1 )- You shall not spread a false report.
You shall not join hands with a wicked man to
be a malicious witness.

( Prov 19:9 )- A false witness will not go
unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will
perish .

( 1Pet 2:1-2 )- So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander. Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation...to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices
acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. ... .

SalC:
This post is an eye opener....this post made my day!

God bless you.

jnrbayano:
I am sure he wouldn't.

I am also sure his father Joseph wouldn't tell him to lie.

The father loses the scriptural authority of a parent in the occasion he sets his child against God. " I have come to set father against son...". So the child will have to tell him that he cannot lie. Let the father deal with it.

If Jesus was that 12yrs old child, do you think He will tell the lie?