₦airaland Forum

adsonstone: No, that's not my problem.
Read the post I mentioned that point again.

I believe he wants you to start the discuss, by saying what you have against the "mother of God".

Ukuts gp: dnt mind them lack of understanding is their problem.

O wise and understanding one hear this:

"At that time Jesus answered and said:I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children" Matt 11: 25.

No wonder it was hidden from you!

adsonstone: Are you trying to say those words are fallible hence they may not be what God really want.....so, those parts of the bible should not be 100% trusted?

St. Paul...not me... differentiated between his word and the lord's word to him. Why did he do that amidst his preaching, is left for I and you to think about.

Now:

Do women preach in your church? considering 1Tim2:12, 1Cor14:34.

Sal C: CORRECT!

Sal C: CORRECT ( no1 is completely answered)

hahaha, two correct answers! did i hear someone singing *everything na double double...*

POPE II: you did not say why

Its because of his built and demeanor. It was his teacher's exclamation when he failed his first theology thesis/exam.

Sal C: Since it's weekend, I decided to come up with the following questions, seeking for answers to them

1) Which saint is known as the 'dumb ox' and why?

2)Which pope is the 118th in the succession of popes and when did he reign?

3)Which Pope officially declared 'Amen' to be used at the end of prayers or hymn and when was his reign?

4) The use of Halleluyah in religious activities was officially declared by which Pope and when was his reign?

5) Which Pope was the first to change his name upon election because he felt unworthy bearing the name of the great apostle.( What was his name before papacy and also his papal name) when was his reign.

Happy weekend to you!!!

Answer to number 1. Dumb Ox = the angelic doctor St. Thomas Aquinas. Make others try the rest, i no de greedy.

woky: jst watching syncan with out glases

hahahaha, woky!

adsonstone: wow! So, this applied to early apostles......
......they were fallible in matters outside faith and doctrine even if they were talking to the whole church...

Yes.
1Cor 7:12 starts with this "But to the rest speak I, not the Lord:" The words in bold sends you a message immediately. It puts the next set of instructions not in the same category with the earlier ones

adsonstone: scriptures in my post means bible.
I'm sorry if it sounded ambigous.
However, He noted that the NT canon is a tradition not in the bible.

Oh! I'd prefer if we take them simultaneously but if you prefer it this way, Its fine.
You may go on.

You see, why I made that comment is this, I do not want us to start arguing on how many books make the bible. Else, all I can agree with, is that our "traditions" do not contradict scriptures even as you have it.

adsonstone: ....sarcasm?
Maybe yes.

that definitely does mean that the pope is fallible in speech/definitions in 'priestly meetings' and matters outside 'defining doctrines/matters concerning faith and morals to the whole church' eg: when He speaks to the whole church about geography, he is fallible....

I hope the above is what you mean....
...and I also want to believe these things you have said is true and I'd like to ask if this position of infallibility applies to the early apostles too.

hahaha, no wahala.

Yes.

...Yes.

Yes it did.

adsonstone: @ Syncan and Italo.

The first we talked about: Tradition concept.

We reached a compromise that all traditions whatsoever have their roots in scriptures.

The second one which is the 'graven image' concept; you indicated that they are not forbidden...and you also affirmed that it is not wrong to refuse using images in worship.

I think that's sufficient otherwise, we won't leave this topic.

Why not let's throw in a third.
'Mary as a co-mediator with Jesus' or Mary as a mediator to Jesus and Jesus to God.
We'll treat that simultaneously with the declaration of only Mary as 'mother of God' knowing fully well that the Holy Spirit says she's blessed amongst women.

I'm not so sure the content of your agreement with Italo on traditions, eg what you agreed to be "scriptures". I am ok with your post, however on the third, it will be better we take it one after the other. I will propose we take "mother of God" first.

adsonstone: Do you mean the pope is only infallible in his teaching of faith and morals and fallible in all other teachings outside faith and morals.

I.e infallible within the church and fallible outside the church?

I suppose this means that they must have declared those things infallibly hence, they were not mistaken/confused.
ie only in teaching of faith and morals.

....but all others, he is prone to mistakes, hence, should not be trusted for other matters because he could be wrong about it.

I agree with that

since He said that infallibly, he must be right to have said he is 'not inefallible' however, he is infallible when he speaks infallibly....just as the one he said above.

so, could he be deceiving the whole world when declared infallibly that He is 'not infallible'?

Please, correct me if I'm mistaken....because I'm not speaking infallibly on your faith just as Francis cannot speak infallibly on hinduism....he is fallible about their faith.

of course, I've read it all....even on catholic encyclopaedias.

How interesting is this 'papal infallibility matter'

I do not like breaking of speech, it bores me. However I will clear this up now.

1.Yes. only in officially defining a doctrine about matters of faith and moral, and even then, only when he speaks to the universal church in his capacity as chief shepherd. Eg, If he is speaking on geography, this does not apply. If he is preaching in his chapel, he is only exercising his role as a shepherd, it does not apply.

2. In those statements made,at different times eg in a gathering of some priests etc, they were not defining any doctrine, they were simply stating the obvious. Any teaching in such occasions that is seemingly contrary to the articles of faith received by the church, could be challenged.

3. When a pope speaks Infallibly, there is always a definitive decree at the end. Something like "it is bound on all Christians" to believe that there are three persons in one God.

4. In every other circumstance, the pope is just a shepherd, leading the flock, most importantly, he is human.

I sense some sarcasm in your statements there about Pope Francis, it wasn't necessary at all, but I'll take it as friendly fire.

Rich4god: Viewing Syncan... From my dream...

Me thought you've stopped talking in your sleep, seems Sal C will need to increase the dosage of whatever she gives you. You need good rest after your vigil. Sal C please help.

Mr. Aladin:
@ sir woky...
She Is Getting Better.

i have being reading Some books and surfing the internet about martyr(dom) and my research showS that all martyrs are Catholic (even the uncanonised one's).
My qustns are:
1. Why e be say pentecostal believers dey Fear to die in order to profess their faith?
2. Why E B say anytime that religious war dey on the catholic church is the most targeted?
3. Why e be say pentecostal pastors dey always fear to preach to catholics?




Good mrn all

@Mr. Al,Its not exactly true that all who ever died for Christ are Catholics, actually the Matyrs of Uganda were not all Catholics...there were anglicans too. More so at the period of the famous Martyrdom, the "Pentecostals" were not yet in existence.

1.To die for the faith no be come chop o, only the one who have actually faced such situation can boast of being able to stand, the martyrs of old were so unsure of enduring, that some had to start afflicting themselves with such pains in preparation for the D-day.

2.The catholic church is always targeted because it has the numerical strength, political weight, even economical influence sometimes, but most of all, because it is the leading light in this dark valley of tears.

3.Well, this may be relative, frankly speaking I think most of their target are Catholics. We have a lot of lapse or ignorant Catholics and they are easy prey. How many people have said at one time "I will never leave the catholic church" only to "find the light" later, some due to marriage, job, economy, etc. One need to be grounded, that's why I thank God for you all, the more we teach ourselves over here, the better we become; for God and for our brethren, When we've learned, lets not hoard it...nay, let's spread it to all.

adsonstone: That's pope Francis.
I won't be surprised if tomorrow, he says he's fallible.

One pope declared 'all popes' infallible..
....and a number of popes have said they are not 'infallible'

Let's see the views of other popes.


Per Pope Benedict XVI
This happened in In July 2005 during an impromptu address to priests in Aosta that:
"The Pope is not an oracle; he is infallible in very rare situations, as we know"


Per Pope John XXIII, He once remarked:
"I am only infallible if I speak infallibly but I shall never do that, so I am not infallible".

From Wikipedia.

Were these men speaking infallibly when they said those?

Adsonstone, for your sake I shall give this reply.

The pope is only Infallible when he takes up his position as shepherd of the universal church to speak on matters of "FAITH AND MORAL". There are certain conditions that has to be fulfilled as to consider it in this category and they all know it. In every other matter they are fallible. The two popes are right. Pope Benedict XVI says rightly that only in rare situation does a pope speak Infallibly. Pope John XIII is right, he does not see anything before him that will require him ...or does not want... to exercise that power. Just finish up your reading on wikipedia with a mind to know.

shdemidemi: May be I didn't get it earlier, please tell me why we need the images in the church. You might be helping a potential convert from Christ to your church, you never know.

Plus, Next time, don't try to use Israel as a leverage as to why you make images cos I will come back to these questions you evade like a plague.

Is Roman Catholic thesame as Israel?

Are they under same covenant?

Demi dear, It doesn't take much to go three pages back, read all posts from, syncan to adsonstone at least, I don't need to start repeating myself.

I have answered your question about the church. Once again go back to earlier posts.

woky: good mornin dear..

But why u dy show us ur teeth?? Oh! U jst finish using close-up i guess

make mee to shine my teeth

You are earning a reputation now oooo, after you go say na me funny. Lol

https://www.nairaland.com/1535164/most-annoying-funny-friendly-persons/2#19859485

Sal C: For I know the thoughts I think for you says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil to give you an expected end. Jer 29v11. Good morning brethren and do have a blessed ahead.

Amen, Amen. Good morning to you and all my brethren. May all who have asked for prayers be comforted in the thought that they are indeed remembered by their brethren. @Mr. Al, He shall put His angels in charge of you...Ps 91. @ Rich, hope your dad is doing better. @ Maria G, may the health of the sick obtain the strength he needs, I believe its long you visited your mail box. For all, I join in the reassurance of Sal C above. God bless us all.


*still reading the pope's message*.

woky: ;Dshebi i don tell u make u try your talen, i swear Basketmoth nO go see your back for comedy

My broda, na Italo start the song yesterday o, since then i can't get my mind off it.

everything na double double ooo...

shdemidemi: If I was bowing before an image and accept anything oga pope says from Rome, i'm sure you wouldn't have been so frivolous. The thread says defend what you do. if you wanna have a go in comedy like our friend suggested, try the A.Y show mate. For now, DEFEND YOUR CATHOLIC TEACHINGS without prevarication if you can.

That's exactly what we've been doing here, defending catholic teaching. It is you who came with your Israel is hagar's child talk here, and I exhorted you to stay focused, yet you prefer leading us into spreading your two gospel teaching than remaining on topic. We have dealt with Images using scripture, we have shown what we do, any other thing you say is your opinion. Thanks demi.

shdemidemi: Allow these people, they were created to believe a lie. They have to fulfil their ministry just as Judas fulfilled his.

hahahaha, you again, Italo made my day yesterday with that music, It kept coming to my mind till I slept. Each time it makes me smile.


* everything na double double...na double double*

shdemi- gospel na double double... na double double ooo
God na double double ...na double double ooo

Syncan - head na double double...na double double ooo

someone sing along with me, absurdity does not end. Lets go, na double double o

adsonstone: How honest can one be other than stating the truth?

God clearly forbid 'making graven images'....leviticus 26:1, Deuteronomy 4:16, 23 and 25 state that.

If the bold is the reason God supports making graven images, then killing esp killing 'God's enemies' is also right and supported by God.

Or should we re-examine the passages I stated above....

....and before that, I should ask you and Italo this.

Is it wrong not to use images in worship?

There is no point beating about the bush, we showed you from scripture that God does not abhor Images, we've showed you from history that Images existed in the early christian days, we've shown you that the christian council of 787AD (by the way, where was your church then, or was it part of the council) approved its use. Why not read about that council and what inspired their decision, don't just come up a thousand years after and say they were not good Christians, nor have the knowledge of the word.

As Italo has said, there is nothing wrong if you do not use Images, however, if you condemn its use, you are going against the belief of the church.

italo: Not even images alone.

"Have no gods besides me. Whether they be images or not."

Yes, Yes, even humans, money...or books.

Sirjay50: *Following* 9ice thread.
I like it when i pray and meditate on the mysteries in subsequent order. I.e Joyful, luminous, sorrowful and glorious. i don't like meditating on the mysteries according to days of the week which they were set for. e.g. Monday- joyful
Tuesday- sorrowful
Wednesday- glorious
is anything wrong if i stick to my method?

Nothing is wrong with your method, days and nights are for man and not for God. The luminous mystery seem to upset the balance when it came, but that's nothing. Its just that If I said only 5 decades a day, I love it when I look at my diary and notice that the whole church meditated on the same mystery with me.

adsonstone: I believe that passage does not forbid what you assumed I implied (taking photographs).

....and you believe it does not forbid 'making graven' images.


Deuteronomy 4:23 forbids graven images but does not forbid 'photographs'.

Can we agree on that?

Adsonstone, we've made our position clear, God did not abhor making Images, for He himself ordered that Images be made. He never said they should replace Him as God and worship them. We do not replace Him with the Images, we do not worship them.

Stop going round and round, remember I called for honesty. Move on to the next allegation.

italo: Remember, you're talking to the man who preaches that there are 2 gospels. Jesus' gospel and Paul's.

Also that there are 2 Jesuses. The heavenly one and the earthly one.

It seems he has extended it to God. The God of Israel and the God of the Church.

Somebody sing: "Everything na double double..."

...Wife, na double double...

shdemidemi: Remember thesame God that called a certain thing unclean later called it clean and Peter had no right to converse.

So, Is your church is under the same covenant as the nation of Israel?

My church has both old and new testament scriptures. My church believes that Jesus came to fulfill the law and prophet and not abolish them. My church believes that the holy spirit teaches her things from the time of Pentecost. My church believes that Jesus will be with her till the end of time. My church believes that the gates of hell will never overcome her. When you put all these together, you will begin to understand why my church teaches what she teaches.

You brought the issue of hagar here, explain yourself...you can't.

shdemidemi: Did He also order the church to make these images?

Is it that you like being heard or you simply don't read earlier posts?

shdemidemi: Guess you can't explain what you wrote. Did the bible say they are children of Hagar? Yes/No


You tried using Israel to justify why you make and bow before images. Now, I ask if your church is the same as the nation of Israel.

The God that lead the Israelites is the same God we worship, yours is different i remember...you said there are two gospels one for Jesus and one for Paul. I tell you again, this is not for the propagation of your ish with "Judaizers". Remain focused.

You made a claim, now you want me to prove it.

shdemidemi: How assumptions! Who said anything about it being good or bad?

How did the Israelites make cherubs, children of Hagar?

Is Roman Catholic thesame as Israel?

It is you who said they are children of hagar, do you now see the irrelevance of your post?

truthislight: God commanded the Israelites to make cherubs, give evidence that God commanded you a christian to build images after he puts a stop to it.

Your God starts and stops at will, on what he likes, mine remains same.

truthislight: ok, you donk have evidence, right ?

Thank you.

Yeah, same way Jesus had nothing for herod. Lk 23:9.