₦airaland Forum

adsonstone: ....but I showed you where God explicitly says graven images should not be made...not necessarily idols.

You showed me where God said images should not be worshipped (which also supports my position because it also says it should not be made in the likeness of any creation)

are you gonna disagree with the parts thats says graven images should not be made?

Or do you mean God was wrong/joking to have said that Images should not be made?

So I did not show you were He ordered it to be made?

shdemidemi: You sound like a Roman Catholic apologist. Go back and read why I made the statement sir. The bible explains the switch at birth, didn't it?
It is either you are a child of the spirit or of the flesh, which one are you?

A catholic apologist? Since when Did that stop being a good thing? That does not make the Israelites who made the cherubs children of Hagar while their father Isaac is not.

truthislight: You claim to be a christian, christianity is not lawlessness.

Where is the command to christians to use, do or make images for worship ?

Show evidence.

Ehen, now you need me to show you Christian laws, do Christians live under law now? I guess you just stumbled on this post, it will do you good to read and learn for now.

shdemidemi: Even if Israel worshipped God in that manner, is the church now the same as Israel? Have we not learnt that Israel are children of the flesh (children of the bond woman, Hagar) and we -the church- are children of the Spirit (children of the free woman, Sarah).

Oga, Pls stick to the thread, It is not for propagating you "beef" with "Judaizers". How Isaac is a child of Sarah, and Israel a child of Hagar is still what you need to think through.

adsonstone: No, those verses show that those people made images without God's command and God did not say anything about it.

....and I maintain my position that says; the fact that they made images without God's command does not justify making images.

Fine. By your position - God must have forgotten to add "except by my command" to his "make no graven Image" Law.

By our position - God did not include "except by my command" because he did not forbid making it, only He forbids giving it Divine honour or Worship.

We both used the Scripture for our defense. Agreed?

Msgamble: 'Papal election procedure'? These is one of rules n guidlines of Dogma..i think u shld visit ur preist or wikipedia for further enlightment on what Dogma is, bro

Please stop speaking in Ignorance, I'm happy you know what Wikipedia is...or did you just hear others mention it? Ok for the benefit of doubt follow this simple step.
1. Go to the top of this your browser
2. In the space for search, type Dogma
3. Click search
4. Open any of the links
5. Read
6. Continue 4 and 5 on all other links
7. Do not stop, until you get it into your skull, that Dogma is not a book.

.

adsonstone: I hope this will clarify it.

God forbids graven images generally see exodus 20, leviticus 26:1.

Though, God commanded images to be made in some instances eg the bronze serpent, the ark of covenant.

However, people made images (though not for worship but for decoration) and God was silent about it (as far as the bible records) also does not justify graven images.

OK, I get you. Now this should clarify ours:

God did not forbid making of the Image per say, but making of it for the purpose of worship as god. Why? Because just as you've pointed out, He could not have ordered the making of the bronze serpent or the ark of the covenant with its accompanying images, if He actually abhors images. Ex 25:18-22, Num 21:9.

The Isrealite made Images. 1King 7:25, 29, 1king 10:19-20.

There were Images made for religious purposes, these are not to replace God, but to aid in the worship of God. It is not same as Idolatry, for the represent real objects that have a relationship with the one true God. eg Cherubs and seraphs, these represent true angels who are always in the presence of God, therefore God was pleased to have them made as aid to His worship see Exodus 25:18-22; 1 Kings 6:23-8; 8:6-7. You tend to suggest that it is a specific instruction from God, hence does not contradict your earlier position, yet I will ask you to show me where God also set aside any other commandment. eg, where He ordered man to commit adultery, or bear false witness, or have another God beside him.

From the witness of early Christians: It is evident from the writings of the early Christians eg Eusebius(b260) that they made Images, but there is no evidence that they called those Images God. The catacombs where early Christian martyrs were buried is filled with pictures and Images of Jesus, Mary, apostles etc.

Council Declaration: Just like in Acts 15, In line with the above submission as a summary, the Second Council of Nicaea in 787, defined the situation. If you care, you may want to read it.

Here is a concise Catholic Position on the subject. It is written in a small teaching book used in England.

"It is forbidden to give divine honour or worship to the angels and saints for this belongs to God alone."
"We should give to relics, crucifixes and holy pictures a relative honour, as they relate to Christ and his saints and are memorials of them."
"We do not pray to relics or images, for they can neither see nor hear nor help us."

This is what we believe in, and why we believe in it. Hope it is clear.

double post.

adsonstone: His law forbids them, so, they are prohibited.



I'm actually using a Nokia 2690 to do all these.
There are so many things I cant do eg, copy items on a webpage, take screenshots etc.



lets clarify something then we move on.

Are you suggesting that when humans do what God forbids in His law and God is silent about it, then the action becomes right, justified and not prohibited?



adsonstone has no such commandment of His own....but for God?
Here..


1. You shall not have other gods besides me.
2. You shall not make any graven image for yourself.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honour your father and your mother
6. You shall not kill
7. You shall not commit adultery
8. You shall not steal
9. You shall not bear false witness
10.You shall not covet anything that belong to your neighbour.

@Adsonstone, the issue here is what does God actually forbids. You say He forbids making of any graven Image. Yet you support "Decorative images/carvings which Kings used for thrones". On the other hand, you do not agree that they should be "used for or assist worship", yet this is not what you claim, you claim that it should not be made at all. see your 2nd commandment. That's why it is difficult to explain, for you need to be clear what we agree on and what we don't. I had earlier called for such clarity. If the thread will move on, this is actually needed.


*By the way, He actually has not just been silent, but has continued to manifest his power and presence to those who use them*

chidima: No, not sure he is in hell. He actually reconcilled himself to the catholic church before he died. He received the sacrament of penance. And when he was asked what will happen to the multitudes you have deceived, he simple said leave them to God.

So for all luther supporters be guided!

Nne,I do not think this is true, ...well, except you can substantiate it. Maybe a link or reference...there are many non verifiable stories out there. This could just be one of them. All the same, except one is linda Nguajah abi something, one may not know if he is in hell . What happens at the last hour is most often never known. God can save whoever he wants.

Ukuts gp: There are false teachers everywhere parading themselves as servants of God but thank God that the church i attends follow strictly the word of God. But as for the catholic it is obvious that they follow tradition nt God.

You are the one who opened this thread, you are the one who is saying this now. How can you know what you just said for sure, since you claim to be confused?

JMAN05: So as Peter is fallible, all he says is not true? Even as your Popes are fallible, why do you believe they tell you the truth?

Truths are proven. Prove solves the riddle.

Fallible, Fellible, infellible, Infallible...There is nothing I no go hear for here. Can we drop argument on things we do not understand?

italo: Are you sure I alone can re-direct the thread?

I will try then.

In my opinion, yes. You may simply ignore any post not inline with civil mannered discuss. If you respectfully and clearly answer only those that ask relevant questions with respect, and who answer honestly, others may simply fall in line. I sincerely believe that the post can be salvaged for the exposition of catholic teaching and not to ridicule it. Yeah, some will try, but simply Ignore.

truthislight: Who is the cause of that ^ ?

Is it not that @Italo will not answer questions but rather keeps asking others if they are infellible ?

To say with certainty that someone is wrong, you need to have assumed that you are right. If however you want to listen to the person's view point, you need to keep an open mind. You need to know what informs the person's position. First and foremost, Italo is "defending" the Catholic church teaching and not his own. Most of us cannot defend any church's teaching, but will quickly tell you the bible is the guide, yet many interpretations abound as many as the preachers abound. Each will tell you to let the Holy spirit guide you, yet each is saying something different. If we want to ask questions about what the catholic church really teach, it has to be done with all honesty. sometimes the questions are tiresome, Eg. How does a Jew practicing Judaism, respond to his Christian Jewish brother, when the Christian accuses him of killing Jesus?

Oh dear, oh dear, this thread has been derailed from what it should have served. What I had really expected is a converse without sarcasm and name calling. I wish I know how to bring this thread back to civility. @ Italo, I think you've made up your mind that you are, not being listened to, but here to be proven wrong. You alone can re-direct this thread if you really want. Questions laced with sarcasm leads no where. If any one wants to understand, ask civilly.


Still Following.

.

Ukuts gp: There are so many teachings and doctrines taught by pastors, evangelist, bishop, prophet and even the pope that are so confusing and does nt match with the scripture. Each pastors and what have you have their own teaching about a particular subject in the bible yet they all claim that their teaching was inspired by the holyspirit.

For example pastor chris oyakhilome teaches that self-service is not a sin yet another pastor will preach that it is a sin yet both of them will claim that they were inspired by the holyspirit.

Also some pastors will say u must pay ur tithe and another will preach that no need for tithe yet both pastors will claim that they receive the inspiration from the holyspirit.
Now, are there more than one holyspirit that inspire different teaching on one particular subject? Is the holyspirit the author of confusion? I doubt. There must be something wrong cos there is only one holyspirit. And i am nt sure if he is d one inspiring them to contradict themselves.

This is why i ask the question, are there more than one holyspirit. If the answer is no. Why are pastors, evangelist, bishops, prophet, arch bishops, double prophets and the pope are contradicting themselves.

I have read your posts at different threads, I never knew you could have such a thought. I felt everything was clear to you, that you believed your understanding of Christian teaching to be the "Holy spirit inspired" one. Your thoughts here should be a cause for concern to every Christian.

It is clear that the apostles understood that their teaching should be one. (Gal 2:2) "And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain".

When there is a conflict, they resolve by means of a council. (Acts 15:2) "When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question".

When someone continues in disobedience and leave, they declare as not one of them. (1john2:19) "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us".

I believe those who succeeded the apostles continued in this manner, guarding the flock against wolves via councils. The doctrine of "Trinity" is an example. When did we stop believing in the councils and turn to individual private interpretation?

Good morning to you all. "How excellent is thy loving kindness, O God! therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings". Ps 36:7. Watch over us o lord, watch over us, we pray.

@ Sal C, I had thought it was the floors, but when you asked for numbers...

.

vickyO: I am tired of going back and forth on this issue. I've made my points and you've made yours. Give the Holy Spirit a chance to teach. Pray for more light on this topic. I've done the best I can. And whatever decision you make, know that you'll be questioned at the end of the age.

Thanks vickyO for a good discuss, you heeded my suggestion and you got my view without rancor, we shall both give the Holy spirit a chance to teach. Here is my parting gift to you on the thread.

God made a prophetic statement (Gen 3:15) - "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel"

Jesus is the seed, his mother the woman (John2:4) - "Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come". And again (John 19:26) "When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!" He called her woman, not to disrespect, but to point us to scripture and identify the woman of the prophecy

John confirmed the mother is a Queen (Rev1:1) - "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"

Now this Queen gave birth to the one taken to the throne:

(Rev 12:5)"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne"

David and Paul had prophesied and revealed what happened next:

(Ps 45:7) - "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

(Heb 1:8 ) - "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom".

God bless you...and bless me too.

Mintayo: Deny bawo,she is not d queen at all,except ur queen is another queen...like the queen of the coast.

Ok "Christian" I leave you to your aspersions. Yeah, its cheap to talk, that's why it doesn't require you to make sense. However to sustain an argument, it is quite needed that you make sense.

Mintayo: go read try9 post above...so bcus she has a crown of twelve stars she shld then be honoured,worship and placed above God?

Then, don't deny that the Mother is the queen, just because you don't want her to be "honoured, worship and placed above God".

Mintayo: Common you cn do better than that,there is nothing like queen in that chapter,it was 'Woman'-just as Jesus refer to her 'Woman' not queen...trying to twist the Bible again?

On her head is a crown of twelve stars. Please tell me where you got that "Jesus wife" is queen?

Mintayo: let me add to it,if Mary is the queen of Heaven,then who is the king of heaven? Please dnt say Jesus bcus mary is the MOTHER not WIFE of Jesus?

Rev 12. The Queen gave birth to the son taken to the throne of God. If you see anywhere that "Jesus wife" was described as queen, let me know.

woky: syncan, sal.c, pope, Italo, Richieboyn, Rich4chukwu and others abeg make una helep me tell chukwudi44444.. Say Woky aka Nwokeoma wan see am here, i take God beg una.

ehm chukwudi at this time, seem to be occupied with a temporal matter of seeking his missing rib.

https://www.nairaland.com/1529328/happy-feast-christ-universal-king/6#19760148

woky: syncan i view u

You viewed well bros. Good morning to all, a new week is here and i say to all " We will rejoice in thy salvation, and in the name of our God we will set up our banners: the LORD fulfil all thy petitions". Ps 20:5

Msgamble: i qoute u 'Election of Pope is base on rule set by those involved', pls what is d rule called?

It is called "Papal Election procedure/rules".

Boomark: You should have known that Rome is too far for syncan to get immediate answer.

8. All thy garments smell of
myrrh, and aloes, and cassia,
out of the ivory palaces,
whereby they have made thee
glad. [b[Kings’ daughters were
among thy honourable
women:[/b] upon thy right hand
did stand the queen in gold of
Ophir." (Psalm 45:6-9).

He should have told us who the kings are, about their daughters and what the will be doing.

I have asked them to seek the will of God and do it but they are more interested in meditating on 100 decades of rosary.

SMH!!! For syncan

Lord teach me to keep my mouth shut, until I know what I am talking about. This prayer will do you a lot of good. Yeah its too far; as heaven was too far for Jesus to get an answer to herod. LK 23 :9.

truthislight: actually, i had wanted to do just that but for the words on red on your post below.

Why on earth will you refused to show evidence for taking an aspect of the OT to be a prophesy without evidence of it and its fulfillment on the NT ?

I will let this one slide for now, but if it becomes an harbit like it is with those projecting tithing for christians, the next course of action is obviouse.

Here is my response to you. Lk 23:9.

CHIRST IS KING! He reigns every day and will reign forever. Today We publicly and ceremoniously declare it to the world.

@HurricaneChris, It is not same as exultation of the cross, please edit... or affirm yours.

chidima: ok. my people, who taught this prayer and to whom.

My God, I believe, I adore, I hope, and I love thee! I ask pardon of thee for those who do not believe,do not adore, do not hope and do not love thee.

No browsing!!!

The Angel. To the three children visionaries of Fatima.